An update to Legion: A buff to Feral Frenzy and a rework to Deep Wound
I think anyone who understands how bad Legion is can acknowledge the fact that, in its current state, Legion's Frenzy cannot do its job, and neither can Deep Wound. Frenzy is pathetic at effectively chaining hits and even more pathetic at effectively applying the Deep Wound status effect. And even if it was, Deep Wound is one of the most underwhelming status effects in the game. You don't even need to deal with it half the time you have it, and the other half is a total cinch—just M1 yourself for 15 seconds and it's like nothing ever happened.
In this thread, I want to discuss my ideas into turning Feral Frenzy into a power that truly delivers, and turning Deep Wound into a status effect that's actually, truly, pressuring and threatening.
So, we'll start off with Frenzy.
-Movement speed increased to 140% (5.6 meters/second)
Reasoning: Current Frenzy catches up to a running Survivor pathetically slowly. At a movement speed of 5 meters per second, you catch up with a running Survivor (4 meters per second) at a rate of only 1 meter per second. Multiply that by 10, the number of seconds in one use of Frenzy, and you only need to be further than 10 meters from the Legion to effectively outpace his Frenzy after he applies Deep Wound to someone else.
No Exhaustion Perks. No using windows or pallets to abuse his pathetically sluggish vaulting. This is literally just running in a straight line.
This is just... no. You can't justify this. That is a shameful excuse of a "feral" "frenzy". Even with his best duration addons, the distance needed to outpace Frenzy goes from 10 meters to 14 meters. That is still smaller than T2 Myers's Terror Radius. It is far too easy to counter his power by just doing normal Survivor things like running forward. It needs to change.
By upping the movement speed to 5.6 meters per second, the closure rate with a running Survivor is increased to 1.6 meters per second. Multiply that by 10, and the distance required to outpace Frenzy is increased to 16 meters—still not much, but already more than what he can do now with his literal best addons.
-Feral Frenzy can be re-used when 1/4 of the power gauge has refilled itself post-Frenzy.
Reasoning: If you drain your entire Frenzy just catching up to a second Survivor, that's it. You're done. For the next 20 seconds, you have no power and cannot effectively set up what measly pressure Deep Wound offers you. By reducing the necessary minimum recharge from 100% to 25%, it makes it so that at the very least, you have to wait 5 seconds for 2.5 seconds of Frenzy. This is, in my opinion, balanced, as it allows you to set up a new Frenzy very quickly and retry for the pressure setup if the Survivor you were catching up to is very close or in an otherwise compromising position.
-Fatigue duration reduced from 4 seconds to 3.3 seconds.
Reasoning: You move at 2.7 meters per second while fatigued. A Survivor runs 1.3 meters faster than you, and can gain a maximum of 5.2 meters on you in one fatigue. This means it takes 8.667 seconds to catch up. 4 seconds of fatigue+8.6667 seconds to catch up=a total of 12.667 seconds the Survivor has to find a loop or get to an otherwise safe area. By reducing the fatigue duration to 3.3 seconds, the Survivor gains only 4.26 meters of distance instead, or 7.15 seconds' worth of catch-up time, for total of 10.45 seconds of total time they need to get to another loop.
That, and a 4-second stun for a power as simple and not-that-good as Feral Frenzy is just not a very epic gamer moment.
-Fatigue tunnel vision drastically reduced.
Reasoning: It physically hurts to go into Frenzy's fatigue without Shadowborn. Please reduce the tunnel vision.
-Window vaulting speed reduced to 0.9 seconds. Pallet vaulting speed reduced to 1.1 seconds.
Reasoning: If a Survivor runs at 4 meters per second, then, using the buffed Feral Frenzy speed I suggested, in the time it takes for Legion to vault a window in Frenzy, the Survivor can travel 4.4 meters, which adds another 2.75 seconds of catch-up time—over a quarter of Legion's Frenzy. When vaulting a pallet, a Survivor can travel 5.4 meters, adding 3.375 seconds to the total catch-up time—almost 40% of Lgion's entire Frenzy.
I get it. Survivors don't have fun when vaulting pallets and windows doesn't drastically hinder the Killer's ability to get them. But if you're going to add mechanics designed specifically to counter windows and pallets, and then make said mechanics so weak that they don't counter windows and pallets—in fact, windows and pallets instead counter them—then what's the point of having those mechanics around? They literally don't do anything.
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Those are the top changes I want to see happen to Feral Frenzy. I want to feel like I'm in a Feral Frenzy, and it certainly doesn't accomplish that effect right now. But there's still half his power we need to address: Deep Wound. The "pressure" tool that, when combined with the total mediocrity that is current Frenzy, ends up being more of a hindrance than a help, where you waste your own time and establish zero presence both in- and out-of-chase. Deep Wound at its fundamental core is just a very underwhelming status effect: "Hold M1 for a lil bit to not die". Very plain, very straightforward, and most importantly, very weak.
I decided to rework it so that it had a more powerful, more lasting, and more interesting presence on the battlefield. I wanted to make it have more stall, and be a greater hindrance than current Deep Wound. Here's what I came up with.
First, changes to Deep Wound's timer.
-The Deep Wound timer now decreases constantly, save for when mending/healing or being mended.
-Hitting a Survivor with Feral Frenzy instantly depletes a fourth of the Deep Wound timer.
Reasoning: Now, I know what you're thinking: This is just old Legion's moonwalk on steroids. That's completely unfair!
Well, luckily for you, my rework removes Deep Wound's ability to down. So lay your qualms to rest. As for what it does? Well, I'll tell you.
Deep Wound's effect just seems kind of silly to me. The Killer, in a rabid frenzy, inflicted you with a cut so brutally deep that it is literally bleeding you out, yet further attacks made during said rabid frenzy do literally nothing to you until you've stopped bleeding out? And how can such a brutal wound be tended to so easily by the Survivor afflicted with it, yet they need an entire medical kit just to be able to rid themselves of much less threatening injuries?
It always bugged me. I want Deep Wound to be more severe and be harder to take care of, yet also make more sense in what a "deep wound" would do. And so, I present to you, my Deep Wound rework.
-Self-mend key changed to the active ability button (Dead Hard/Diversion button for reference) [I will explain this later].
-Deep Wound now comes in three stages. When the timer of one stage hits 0, it will move on to the next stage. Stage 3 has no Deep Wound timer.
Stage 1: Deep Wound
The Survivor has been inflicted with a penetrating cut and is heavily injured.
-Slightly increases bleeding frequency.
-Action speed reduced by 5%.
-Takes 15 seconds to self-mend, and 10 seconds to be mended by someone else.
-If the Survivor does not mend within the 30 seconds that the timer is active, they will move on to stage 2.
Stage 2: Vicious Wound
The Survivor has lost a lot of blood and is beginning to lose strength.
-Bleeding frequency returns to normal.
-Action speed penalty increases to 10%.
-If the Survivor does not self-mend in 30 seconds, they will proceed to stage 3.
Stage 3: Crippling Wound
The injuries on the Survivor's body have become overwhelmingly debilitating.
-The Survivor cannot perform any interactions except for self-mending and using windows, pallets, and items (unless that item is tied to an action restricted by Crippling Wound) [similar to the Doctor's madness III].
-The Survivor's vaulting speed is reduced by 15%.
-The visual obstruction caused by the Deep Wound VFX is slightly increased.
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So, Deep Wound becomes a mounting penalty that will hinder the Survivor's objective-performing capabilities unless they mend themselves. Now, I know what you're thinking: What's stopping them from just taking the 15 seconds to mend and being done with it? And the answer to that is very simple:
-Self-mending no longer removes Deep Wound, but instead resets the timer back to the beginning of stage 1, with a 20-second relief before the timer begins going down again.
Now, this may seem extremely unfun and unfair—some may say you'll have to be mending constantly to fend off that pesky stage 3. But the truth is, you'll have to be mending far from constantly. If you mend just once, you get a 20-second relief period, as well as the total 60 seconds needed to reach stage 3. That's 80 seconds in which stage 3 will not apply to you. If stage 1 and 2 didn't have that action speed penalty, that would literally be enough time to do a generator—and even then, you can still do 74.5 out of the 80 charges of a generator, or just negate the stall entirely with a toolbox, so it's really not that bad.
Another argument some might use is that it's just plain unfun. Why should you be forced to be diverted from your objective? And even when it's not diverting you from your objective, it's slowing it down! And in defense, I will say that first off, a 5% or 10% penalty is hardly that bad. The worst it'll do is just annoy you knowing that it's there making your progress bar red. And as for diverting your objective in stage 3? You have to take a mere 15 seconds to gain an 80-second period of being able to do your objective as you please. Compare that to Pig, who forces you to do the exact opposite of your objective by hanging the threat of death over your head, or Doctor, whose objective-diverting madness 3 is just as bad as Crippling Wound with the added unfun nonsense of making you scream out your position to him, or Plague, who forces you to walk away from your objective to heal yourself and then punishes you with a ranged attack afterwards, or Freddy, who forces you to fail skill checks to avoid his cumbersome Dream Traps and reduce the effectiveness of his Dream Projections, and... I think you get the idea. This new Deep Wound really isn't all that bad. There are Killers with far more annoying abilities that divert you away from generators.
And before anyone asks about the 15% penalty to vault speed, I did the math.
Assuming that the vaults use the "charge" system of most actions in the game: You vault at a speed of 1 charge per second. This means that fast vaults are a 0.5-charge action and medium vaults are a 0.9-charge action. Stage 3 of Deep Wound reduces the speed from 1 charge per second to 0.85 charges per second.
-Fast vaults go from 0.5 seconds to approximately 0.5882 seconds, or an increase of 88.2 milliseconds.
-Medium vaults go from 0.9 seconds to approximately 1.059 seconds, or an increase of 159 milliseconds.
-I don't know the times for slow vaults and pallet vaults, but if these serve any example, it'll only be an issue if the Legion is already right on you or if you're sitting at an unsafe pallet.
In any case, there are a myriad of Killers with much more powerful chase abilities, including the ability to either take away your ability to use vaults and pallets entirely or just straight-up ignore them. Personally, I'd be more worried about the Deep Wound VFX making it harder to see the Legion and making you more susceptible to being mindgamed.
On to another question, however: If self-mending does not remove DW, then is there at least some way to get rid of it?
There are three options. The first is to simply be mended by someone else, which immediately removes Deep Wound and all of its effects, forcing Legion to put it back on you with another Frenzy attack. Alternatively—and this is why I made self-mending into a different keybind—if you have the resources to heal yourself while in stage 1, then fully self-healing puts you into the healthy state and totally removes Deep Wound. The third and most undesirable change is being put into the dying state, which completely removes any Deep Wound effects and timers you may have on you at the time.
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And that's my Legion rework. Deep Wound and Feral Frenzy are supposed to be pressure tools with a mild chase utility (free first hit applied to multiple Survivors), but right now it does not do either of those jobs. This rework is designed to grant it the power and capabilities it needs to both apply, establish, and maintain real pressure, while giving a power that makes you run fast and jump over things actual usefulness in chases.
Let me know what you think down below.
Comments
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@Rizzo90 I did not mean to post this in bug reports; my apologies for clogging up this section with the wrong thread.
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Just about anything would be better than the current version of Legion.
That being said, I actually quite like this idea. It fixes most, if not all of my issues with the rework and the suggested version of Deep Wounds sounds like an actual debuff rather than just a mild inconvenience like they are at the moment.
One thing that I've been wondering though is, considering that Borrowed Time also applies Deep Wounds, would it then apply this version of Deep Wounds or do you feel like the perk should apply a new status effect akin to the current version of Deep Wounds or perhaps even just put survivors on a timer like it used to? I feel like it would be kinda strange for BT to not put you on any sort of timer that results in going down if not attended to.
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The stat part I would change some numbers but they are more or less the olde numbers so it's good.
The idea of Deep Wounds seems cool but i have a problem with it. Feral Frenzy isn't still lethal and makes legion still a m1 loopable unfun killer. It makes survivors constantly mend and it would make more people disconnect than pre patch legion.
I think the idea is good but not for deep wounds and it doesn't solve legion's problems. This idea would be better for plague's sickness imo. Solves the "no cleansing" problem.
This is how i would fix it (even tho it wasn't my idea, as explained in the post) if you want to check it out.
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And instead we will have a nurse nerf, followed by a spirit a day Billy nerf... Yahoo
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soon legion will be #1 in all popular tags
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Oh hell yes. I love these ideas.
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I'd be totally fine with BT receiving its old effects, just so that Legion's sole reason for existing isn't buffing Borrowed Time.
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""The idea of Deep Wounds seems cool but i have a problem with it. Feral Frenzy isn't still lethal and makes legion still a m1 loopable unfun killer"
I honestly don't understand what the whole gripe with having to M1 is. i get it can be frustrating with the way loops are designed, but if being an M1 Killer were ultimately that bad, then why does everyone rate Billy as top tier? The way people talk, you'd think his map pressure would be outweighed by the sin of being an M1 Killer.
Also, between his short stature and the visual obstruction of Deep Wound's VFX, I would say that Legion has the best M1 mindgames in the game—the first, of course, being Faceghost. Add on to this Legion I came up with and you have the slower vaults and further visual Deep Wound obstruction caused by stage 3, and him being an M1 Killer should be fine.
Keep in mind, I played old Legion at red ranks and used Frenzy the way new Legion is forced to use it—I chained injuries and applied Deep Wound for pressure and stall, and refused to use Feral Frenzy as a tool for securing downs. This means I was, quite truly, a 110 M1 Killer. And I nonetheless consistently got 3k's and 4k's in my games.
"It makes survivors constantly mend and it would make more people disconnect than pre patch legion."
I already addressed why they would be far from "constantly" mending; Survivors who DC against this iteration of the Legion are just entitled brats and probably the same people who DC against current Legion.
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BHVR gave legion 110% ms because he should be power dependant. His power was supposed to be used on chases like all the killers that have slower movement speed. I think this was the right way to put legion. It is like it conserves his difference from the other killers, being a guy that hits multiple survivors but is also very fast at chases with the cost of needing to hit multiple times to down someone. With the link i gave you, his chases would have counterplay and he would benefit more than before when using feral frenzy to down someone or to chain hits.
Legion got from 4.4ms to 4.6ms because he needed an increase in lethality. You can make his power lethal with a lot of counterplay, effectiveness and enjoyment to both sides. Basically make his power able to do things that wasn't able when it has killer instinct active. For example: when triggering killer instinct, the power drains at half speed and legion can vault pallets. When out of killer instinct (simply pressing the button) he can destroy pallets x% faster, being x a number that behaviour thinks is fair. This way his power is better when you're after multiple survivors but gives you utility when downing someone. Gives counterplay to the survivor when going to a pallet.
The deep wounds solution is on the post but it is a lot to say.
I think the main problem with legion atm, from what i've seen and experience when i play him, is that he is very unfun and underwhelming. The unfun part is the worst one because, as a lot of people that were legion mains before that horrible patch, we prefer that legion is kinda weak but fun to play ( this doesn't mean that we don't want him strong). He got more unfun and underwhelming with the patch.
People who dc vs legion i kinda understand them but not totally. There were ways to counter him when he was trying to down you but it was just a matter of time for him to down because there was nowhere safe. Still... disconnecting is punisheable, and thx bhvr that it is.
High terror radius doesn't help, his short stature is a double-edged blade because it also makes survivors harder to detect and easier to lose.
Hillbilly is loopable but he only needs 1 hit to down you, has a lot of pressure and few downsides. His skillcap is ginormous.
The visual obstruction of deep wounds is just bad. Almost doesn't obstruct their vision and doesn't threaten them at all. Wow, your screen becomes very slightly black and whiteish and sometimes comes a drop of blood on the screen. Even if it would cause visual obstruction, that isn't the purpose of deep wounds, unless he stabbed you in the eye. JK. But deep wounds was made to down survivors that are bleeding internally. I think that should stay as it is.
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I'm sorry, but I just disagree as a whole with your philosophy regarding Legion at his bare fundamentals. There's no way a power like Feral Frenzy can be fair and balanced if it can achieve downs. It's pure fantasy. Legion is fine as an M1 Killer; his short stature is not a double-edged sword unless you struggle to track Survivors and the Deep Wound VFX pay dividends (mostly back before the nerf), I can assure you. Keep in mind, I did well as an M1 Legion back when his base movement speed was slower. If I can M1 at 110 speed, then you can do it at 115.
Besides, even if it were good at chasing, that matters little if the Legion has no stall, because genrushing is simply too powerful of a strategy. Feral Frenzy works best as a pressure tool, not a chase tool.
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I love this idea for the legion. However for deep wound I think it would be a drag to have to rework an entire status effect. Instead I think the deep wound should last like 20 or so seconds and should still drain even during a chase, but not as fast. And to counter spamming, hitting the survivor twice with FF will cause the power to have to fully recharge in order to be used again. Basically we can go with the 1/4 of the bar to activate it, but hitting the same survivor twice in a row will empty FF and it will require a full bar to activate again. I think only then we will have a proper legion.
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Deep Wound is vastly superior as a pressure power than a chase power, and no matter how you change it, being able to use Feral Frenzy and Deep Wound to literally guarantee a chase is neither fair nor balanced. It doesn't matter if reworking Deep Wound is a "drag" or not; in order to make this utterly terribly-designed status effect worthwhile, you need to put work into redesigning it.
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Good ideas with logical argumentation (except for the action penalties that are too high), some people should take example.
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How are the action speed penalties too high? Stage 2 of Deep Wound applies less than 9 extra seconds to a generator and less than 2 extra seconds to healing. Considering the current meta is never healing, you’ll get more use out of Thanatophobia—a Perk with a very weak and ineffective slowdown.
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Wouod missed attack consequences and power gauge decreased by normal attacks still apply?
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You'd go into fatigue, but you wouldn't instantly deplete the rest of your power gauge.
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That's good. Also, soon I want to post a video on Legion showing how underwhelming he/she is under a normal player's hands. (As in me :/)
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I have some Rank 1 Legion gameplay if you want to see a REALLY trash Legion.
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Would be good, since I am rank 15 killer (I think I play at a green rank level though) XD
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I'm afraid you'll have to listen to me speak with my garbage mic to the rest of my party members and I think I comment on the forums a few times too xD. Its on my Mixer channel, I can give a link but the name is PulsarGaming360. Look for one with Legion on The Game. Should be a 45 minute stream.
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Also, are you allowed to put videos on here without blocking names since I can't edit?
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Not sure. That's why I suggested you just look on my channel because I really don't know lol
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I played legion the exact same way as you did before the patch. I only used feral frenzy to down someone when that someone was the last one on the trial and i knew where the hatch was.
Now that i think of it, it is fun to stabby stabby to down someone. The problem with that is that you could vault everything. If you can't vault pallets when you're not with killer instinct active, the stabby stabby mechanic becomes counterable. His power being lethal doesn't mean overpowered if you chose correctly how it works. Just see the post that i linked and go tell there what you think about the idea. I mained legion too, and still main so I completely know what you're talking about when you say that you played legion the "right way". Maybe the right way was to also kill people with your power but it lacked counterplay back then. Now i lost my will to play legion because he is unfun and i don't like the other killers that much.
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“If you can't vault pallets when you're not with killer instinct active, the stabby stabby mechanic becomes counterable.”
... No, it doesn’t. Just wait for Frenzy to recharge and then run around it. Or, better yet, just break the pallet.
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If you run around it, the survivor can vault back. If you break the pallet, it gives the survivor time to run. frenzy only lasts 6 seconds, it is almost nothing. The idea is to have a 0.75 sec cast time which gives the survivor 3 more meters to run.
These are the best cases where the survivor has no window or other pallet to run to.
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Mindgames? Unlucky pallet spawns? Windows?
Unless it's one of those perfectly safe and literally unmindgameable pallets, you can get a Frenzy hit off without needing much effort, regardless of vaulting.
And even if there was counterplay, the strength of stabby-stabby just becomes even more nonexistent then. Not having counterplay was the literal only reason that Frenzy was good for chases; the fact you need to hit someone four times would completely nullify its strength if it were to become counterable.
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@NullSp3c Moreover, I've looked over the thread you linked, and the proposed rework nerfs Feral Frenzy's ability to apply stall and pressure—the exact thing Legion needs. It doesn't matter if he can use a mediocre Frenzy to down a Survivor; that won't stop the other three from doing generators.
Which do you think is more fun: Going stabby-stabby with very little thought and effort and having your generators done immediately, or actually having to M1 but being able to last longer than 5 seconds before the gates get opened?
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What do you mean it doesn't give stall potential?
He can reach multiple people easier with the changes, so everyone is injured and mending. The guy you're chasing after hitting other people can be downed by 2 ways:
The one that i described above( that is powerful imo)
And if you cancel frenzy you receive a shorter cooldown than normal, making it more lethal and it can end chases fast.
This basically gives legion multiple ways to achieve it's purpose: stall the game and kill people.
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The problem is, your proposed rework has three ungodly terrible changes that will utterly destroy Legion’s ability to chain hits:
- Losing 15% of your Frenzy when vaulting a pallet or window, making the chaining-hits aspect of Frenzy even more heavily countered by pallets and windows than it is right now.
- Killer Instinct becoming aura-based, allowing Survivors to use aura-canceling abilities to hide themselves from the Legion and avoid being found during a Frenzy.
- Deep Wound’s pathetically short 15-second mend time being reduced even further, down to 10 seconds.
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It all comes down to math.
Right now while vaulting Legions power depletion is paused. A 15% drain is simply what would happen if there was no pause.
The ability is deliberately hard to hit because the reward for doing so is far higher than in the current iteration or even the initial iteration. Using it and then canceling for example can easily lead to a 10 second chase from healthy.
The mending time is mostly because no one likes mending and thus making it as short as we can afford to is good, the power (due to the shorter cooldown among other things) is much more lethal and has utility in being a whispers lite. So having mending take too long in addition to that is too much.
That being said don't underestimate the presence of skill checks. It means that the Legion can approach someone mending more easily letting him take advantage of the brief moment of vulnerability in one way or another.
It can also drain faster.
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“The ability is deliberately hard to hit because the reward for doing so is far higher than in the current iteration or even the initial iteration.”
No, the reward is lower because you get even less stall and the shorter fatigue won’t matter if a loop is nearby.
”The mending time is mostly because no one likes mending and thus making it as short as we can afford to is good”
Who cares if nobody likes mending? Nobody likes getting caught in a bear trap. Nobody likes being vomited on and getting injured without being hit. Nobody likes Madness III. Yet at the same time, nobody in their right mind is asking for those garbage abilities to be nerfed. Taking 15 seconds to mend is not a big deal; if you don’t like it, get over yourself.
”the power (due to the shorter cooldown among other things) is much more lethal”
Except you nerfed its lethality by giving it even more counterplay in the form of pressing the space bar at loops, which already hard-counters it as is. And, again, I will repeat: No matter how “lethal” his power is, it’s still not lethal enough to make up for Legion’s complete and utter lack of stall and map pressure—something you nerfed even further in this rework.
“has utility in being a whispers lite.”
By changing Killer Instinct to auras, you are changing it from a tracking function that will always reveal nearby Survivors to a tracking function that has ways of being blocked or hidden by the Survivors, so you’re actually giving it less utility.
”So having mending take too long in addition to that is too much.”
15 seconds is not a long time. It takes more time to heal somebody.
”That being said don't underestimate the presence of skill checks. It means that the Legion can approach someone mending more easily letting him take advantage of the brief moment of vulnerability in one way or another.”
- They're not any more vulnerable sitting still to mend than they are sitting still to mend with skill checks.
- Are you aware of how easy great skill checks are to hit? A 10-second action does not need those.
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ANYTHING can be balanced with the right Numbers. You just need to actually work through it.
This is why I try to avoid variables when describing an idea. Instead of just assuming that a specific number is fine, I actually calculate which numbers to use.
For example 5.6 M/S is needed to help make up for the 1 second self stun. Because part of the whole point of doing this it doesn't COMPLETELY make up for it (he gains 1 extra meter) but it means it's a reasonable 6.6 meters gained on the survivor (which means you would get pretty close to a survivor before using it). Old legion was 7.68 meters btw.
If you wanted to make it completely cancel out btw you would want a speed of 5.78 M/S. But the idea here was to make it so you'd need to be close to hit the first Survivor but that additional survivors could be relatively far away (19.2 meters to be exact).
For example if you walk up to Survivors working on a generator within 5 meters (probably with M&A) and activate Frenzy, and they both start running in opposite directions. The first survivor you will hit in 5 seconds no problem, the second survivor you will barely hit using a lunge.
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So, you basically just admitted that Feral Frenzy’s hit-chaining capabilities are still weak with your rework, further nerfing any pressure he may have in exchange for a more “lethal” four-hit-down power.
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In both the current and past version of Legion he wouldn't be even close to hitting both Survivors in my Situation.
Old Legion would be 7.94500 meters short from the 2nd survivor and Current Legion would be 10 meters short.
Being able to hit these survivors anyways despite a decent initial distance (5 meters is more than you would give credit for) is excellent chain hitting capability's. No other Killer comes anywhere close to damaging Survivors that quickly and unless your name is Sally or Max, Killers don't tend to cover ground as quickly as you would expect even when using their powers.
Even Spirit who's power is insanely fast only gains about 7 meters depending on addons. (2 second activation time so +8 initial distance, 7.04-4=3.04, 3.04*5= 15.2, 15.2-8=7.2)
This is only a little bit below that for the first hit and more than double that for any additional hits.
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The 10 seconds to mend was the old mend time and people already complained about it but that isn't really important, as you said. But with skillchecks, they must be aware of 2 things: when a skillcheck appears and when legion is coming to down them. it may not seem like it, but makes a huge difference between pressing a button and looking around with no problem and pressing a button but being careful about ######### it up and being careful watching when the killer is coming.
I don't know why people call it 4 hit down because the 1st and 2nd hit are basically one because there is no way in hell that you can't hit the same person again after aplying deep wounds.
I think it ALL doesn't come down only to math because there are a few variants that you have to make to count after the math is done, adjusting it. Just by the fact that people are careful about the skillchecks they are consuming time to when to mend and where, this can give you some more time. The reduced cooldown by canceling it is good even with a loop nearby. Breaking pallets faster is obvious that it will result in a lot less loops and safe places. With the rework, survivors are also in need to heal or, otherwise, you have a frank's mixtape on them (same with exposed). No, it isn't broken. Why? Because you can't vault pallets as you could before and it has counterplay. The stall potential is ginormous in the contrary to what you said. Now people don't even bother about healing or being exposed vs Legion. This rework makes it needed to heal.
Explain to me how this is bad to you?
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Ok this is actually getting a bit off topic tbh.
If you want to talk more about our rework then you can comment on the thread for it.
The existence of an alternative rework idea doesn't invalidate this idea anyways.
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We can't delete comments tho :/
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Spirit's charge time without add-ons is 1,5 seconds, not 2.
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Is it?
Ok in that case it would be 9.2 meters.
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@NuclearBurrito I was in the middle of writing a counterclaim, and I intend to finish writing it.
“Being able to hit these survivors anyways despite a decent initial distance (5 meters is more than you would give credit for) is excellent chain hitting capability's.”
Except the calculations you provided are just running in a straight line. It does not include forcing the Legion to jump over a window or pallet or the Survivor having an Exhaustion Perk—and between the density of loops and how common Exhaustion Perks are, a Survivor is far more likely to have one of those at their disposal than they are to be totally defenseless.
Let’s look at a scenario that is much more likely to take place.
You approach 2 Survivors on a generator with Monitor and Abuse. You know you can get to them faster with Frenzy and still get a hit, so you activate it immediately before they notice you. They notice you when you are 8 meters away (because let’s be real, if you let a non-stealth Killer get within 5 meters of you, you need glasses) and run in opposite directions—one to the left, one to the right, but both in the opposite direction of you.
At a rate of 1.6 meters per second, it would take 5 seconds to hit the first Survivor. In that time, the other Survivor is gaining distance on you at a rate of 1 meter per second, for a total of 13 meters between you and them.
If Frenzy lasts for 12 seconds instead of 6, then you would theoretically be able to catch the Survivor, because you would need 8.125 seconds to catch up. However, again—loops and Exhaustion Perks. Sprint Burst would make it even tougher to get to them by increasing the distance gained to 15.2, Lithe would allow them to outrun you with ease by waiting until you get close to them and then vaulting a window, and Balanced Landing has the same effect as Lithe except you’d need to camp a place to fall from instead.
Moreover, even without Lithe, vaults are very powerful against the Legion. Let’s say the Survivor vaults over the window in a pallet-window jungle gym (since that’s where most windows are situated) after you have chased them for 5 seconds. At this point, you have 7 seconds of your power left, and there is 5 meters of distance between you and the Survivor. It would take 3.125 seconds to get to the Survivor had they not vaulted, but they did indeed press the space bar, so now you have an obstacle in your way.
You can’t mindgame the Survivor because they can see you through the window and around the corners of the wall and will mindgame right back, so you have to force it. You take approximately 0.9 seconds to get to the point where they vaulted, and then another 0.9 seconds to vault it, for a total of 1.8 seconds of your power. Assuming the Survivor ran straight forward, you would close 1.44 meters between you and them in the time it took to approach the vault, but they would gain 3.6 meters on you in the time it took for you to actually vault, so they end up gaining 2.16 meters on you. Since they vaulted when you were 5 meters away, that means they are now 7.16 meters away from you, and you have 5.2 seconds of your power left. It would take 4.475 seconds to catch up to them now, so you should be clear, right? Not really, because that’s just a Survivor running forward, ignoring any more pallets, windows, or jungle gyms they might run into—which, given the placement of vaults either tends to be either near a pallet or just outright facilitating one, they most likely will. They could just as easily find another vault or pallet and force you to circumnavigate it once again—except now, you don’t have 7 seconds of your power; you have 1 or 2. So you just lose it and end up chaining no hits, ultimately ending up in failure once more.
You might think at that point that this was the Survivor outskilling and outplaying the Legion, but the problem with that that statement is, the Survivor did not do anything special to trick or juke the Legion. They did not dodge a hit. They did not confuse the Legion. They did not mindgame. All they did was run straight forward and occasionally vault. That’s it. And they still shut down the Legion’s entire power. They didn’t do anything except barrel forward, and there was still nothing the Legion could do.
And this is an extremely generous scenario, in my opinion, simply because most Survivors will see the Legion before they are even within his Terror Radius, let alone when he is within 8 meters of them, unless the map is something like Shelter Woods or Yamaoka.
That doesn't even include the second Survivor hiding in a locker while you were chasing someone else or having Distortion equipped—counters you knowingly implemented into this rework.
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“The 10 seconds to mend was the old mend time and people already complained about it but that isn't really important, as you said. But with skillchecks, they must be aware of 2 things: when a skillcheck appears and when legion is coming to down them. it may not seem like it, but makes a huge difference between pressing a button and looking around with no problem and pressing a button but being careful about [BAD WORD] it up and being careful watching when the killer is coming.”
You act like watching for skill checks requires actual vigilance. It doesn’t. It takes almost 0 of a decent Survivor’s attention span to hit even great skill checks, let alone good ones. They will, in no way, impact the Survivor’s ability to keep a lookout for the Legion. They are small, easy to deal with, and have no audiovisual disturbances significant enough to be a hindrance to your attention span. At the absolute worst, they will hear you coming as they get a skill check and be forced to fail it, putting a single extra second or two into their mend bar. In exchange, they now have a shorter overall mend time and can speed it up even further with great skill checks.
What a great idea.
”I don't know why people call it 4 hit down because the 1st and 2nd hit are basically one because there is no way in hell that you can't hit the same person again after aplying deep wounds.”
They call it a 4-hit down because you need to hit someone 4 times to down them.
“Just by the fact that people are careful about the skillchecks they are consuming time to when to mend and where, this can give you some more time.”
Already debunked that nonsense, so I won’t bother now.
“The reduced cooldown by canceling it is good even with a loop nearby.”
It doesn’t stop you from being looped, so no, it’s not good if a loop is nearby.
“Breaking pallets faster is obvious that it will result in a lot less loops and safe places.”
Breaking pallets doesn’t matter when he has no stall. That’s why Clown is a bad Killer.
“With the rework, survivors are also in need to heal or, otherwise, you have a frank's mixtape on them (same with exposed). No, it isn't broken. Why? Because you can't vault pallets as you could before and it has counterplay.”
See, except they won’t heal because if it has counterplay, they’ll just, you know, counter it, effectively removing the need to heal. However, a more prevalent issue than that is that having good chase potential doesn’t encourage healing. It encourages genrushing even harder because a good chase Killer still can’t stop that without good stall or map pressure, of which this Legion has none. Let me repeat, if chase potential was a worthy trade-off for stall and pressure, then Clown, Freddy, and Faceghost would all be top-tier Killers.
“The stall potential is ginormous in the contrary to what you said. Now people don't even bother about healing or being exposed vs Legion. This rework makes it needed to heal.”
As described by my previous point, it does the exact opposite of what you say—it makes Survivors ignore healing and do gens even harder.
“Explain to me how this is bad to you?”
Because none of what you just said is true.
Post edited by No_Mither_No_Problem on0 -
Yes, it is.
This video has all values related to Spirit's power and here you can see that her default charge time is 1,5 seconds ( and the guy from the video tested this ) : https://youtu.be/NWZIq4SVgos.
This video also has all values for Spirit's add-ons, so if you want and have time, you can calculate with what add-ons she gains the more distance.
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