Devs, can you not be scared to add strong killers and strong survivor perks ?
You want to repeat that infinite meta cycle or what ?
Break the game with new killers that can destroy wall or windows, the ability to fly or make a 20meter jump lunge... Feels repetitive right now. Im sure you got great ideas but are scared of the cry for nerf.
Put your balls on the table and make an awesome massacre game goddamit, not a nascar simulator.
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Making something UP is healthier for the game than making something OP. If its UP, ppl can just simply not use it if they dont want to. If its OP, ppl dont have a choice of not going AGAINST it. Right now, theyre not trying to make perks that are BETTER than the "meta" perks, but rather are on the same lvl. The buff they made to PGTW for example really made it more usable without making it OP.
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The Nascar simulator analogy really hit home. Looping is ok I guess, but all pallets should be in linear narrow passageways to discourage looping all the time. Increase the pallets stun time so the survivor can get away.
Also survivors should have a stamina system they need to manage. This constant running all over heck is ridiculous.
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People all over the place crying nerf for nurse and you're asking exactly for a Nurse.
The thing is, people don't want their looping meta shaken.
I agree with you, in the sense that there should be a lot of different playstyles available.
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Why are you coming up with that "OP" word. If everything is OP then nothing is OP. This needs to stop, this is an argument feeding mediocrity on both side of a table. And overall this is not my point.
Thats in dev hands to set an art direction and same goes for the gameplay, not their community. If they bad at it, hire someone.
Is that all people want right there ? In 3 years old ? 40 killers, 40 survivors, 300 pointless perks and nothing much changed but "slight" gameplay diversity ?
K lel
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That's exactly why the looping meta should be shaken. Just a little bit.
Nurse has been strong forever with zero issues. With people complaining forever. I wish people would just learn how to play against her.
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Of course I am, nurse is richness for the game. Thats the only killer that bring real diversity to the roaster. I wont talk much about it, only the fundamental idea behind it. MoM and old Ds would still be there, no one would dare to ask for a nurse nerf.
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Uhhhh, GhostFace is pretty strong, Huntress too
The only issue is the entitlement of the community
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I agree with you guys. I'm not on the 'nerf nurse' camp, since I actually dislike looping waist high stuff like an idiot.
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I agree.
What I'm trying to say though, is that your idea won't gain any ground against the mob.
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Probably right, but I had to say it somewhere ! If people are fine with having 30 new cosmetics per month, that's their right !
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This is true. If something is a little weak, that's okay. We can always buff it up until it's in a good spot (Pop Goes The Weasel is a good example of that). If something is overpowered, then everyone gets frustrated while playing against it until it is nerfed, and then more people are frustrated that we nerfed it.
To give an example, compare the outrage from Pop Goes The Weasel to Mettle of Man.
There's also something said about making a killer that breaks the game. To use the example of a killer that can destroy walls (which was actually a prototype way back), that can be a very dangerous thing to do. It can be ridiculously powerful, but then you also run into the issue of "How do you balance it?" If the power breaks the game, you often can't balance it in a way that's fun without making it weak or frustrating to use.
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I kneeew you got awesome ideas like that !
But nothing has to be balanced perfectly, its an asymetrical game, it can't be ! Just add downside to it ! For this example the killer could get a 10% debuff after breaking one, and toolboxes could be used to recraft a window, I don't know. Even if people gonna cry, yeah fine, in this case just bring killer or perk spotlight just like LoL so both sides understand the pros and cons.
To me everything is possible, thats never good for creativity to think about bad things first.
Its like in a lot of similar situation, marketting, sport or human relationship. Imagine thinking about worstcase scenario everytime ? It just brings barrier and limit the full potential of an initial energy.
"Only the ones that take risks are free."
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Greater variety is good. Killers breaking walls? Sounds good. Killers flying? Sounds good. Nurse is great, too, in theory.
But, "if everything is OP then nothing is OP". Maybe in a game like overwatch. Super strong ultimate abilities? They are fine because both sides have them. In a game like this? Nope. Not in an asymmetrical game. Counter play is required in a game like this. Balance is equally important in a game like this compared to other genres of games.
A killer that has a non-looping, meta-breaking play style? Bring it on. Sounds fun. Another killer like nurse? Nah, that's the beginning of the end for a game like this.
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Do you hire your best players (Fog Whisperers and such) to aggressively test new perks to see what's broken? I get why you would be gun-shy about introducing super OP perks, but what was the high-level feedback on, say, Mettle of Man at the time of its launch?
(Also, dear everyone else: I'm not talking about random PTB testing. 99% of us aren't high level enough to provide the kind of deep analysis I am getting at. I promise I'm not trying to insult anyone.)
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No thank you. I don't wanna deal with another MOM.
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Then are you finally admitting the Legion nerf was way too much?
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last time survivors got a good perk was MoM and we all know how that went, last time we got an OP or considered OP killer by some ppl we got ghostface and you know how that went (even tho the nerfs werent big in any way you still got killers crying a lot about it)
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Do you not understand how this creates and maintains a double-standard?
Every single 2nd-chance perk that survivors get is stronger than the last, even if it's designed not to be, due to the cumulative effect of them. Every additional one synergises with the others. Despite this, survivors have been given about two every year and they keep getting them.
Meanwhile, good killers are introduced almost by accident, as was the case with the Spirit. She will be next if the Nurse is gets changed based on lies about her addons. Billy has been held up as an example of a 'perfectly-balanced killer', but there hasn't been a single attempt to make anything like him: a skill-shot with high map-pressure and an insta-down. This is despite killers repeatedly, expressly and notably requesting that their skill-ceiling be raised across the board with a proportionate increase in their usefulness relative to the extra investment in practice and effort. Raise the skill-floor too and that would do something about killers dominating at low ranks.
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That early prototype killer was called "smasher" right?
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I think the Freddy reworked helped made him be one of the stronger killers in the game. Which is probably going to be one of the few strong killer we're going to have for a while now.
Plague I think was meant to be strong too like Freddy, her kits has a lot of uses but they were too afraid to commit to anything with her. So they watered down her kit a lot so people wouldn't cry nerf on her every five minutes online.
Spirit also exists. She's strong too and people cry nerfs for her all the time rn.
Ghostface isn't strong but more bs anything with how wonky the detection due to p2p connection.
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Hulk jr.
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Yes true, I was a bit exagerating, but you got the point. How many time did we wait for this new freddy to come out (even if, in my opinion, the old version was a beast if you knew how to play him).
I just hope there will be more for this game, than the sensation of band-aiding things, patch after patch... Having to run or seeing Adrenaline / Enduring-Spirit Fury cause hey, those are the perks to use if you understand this game, cause it gives way more benefits than others is meh.
I wish we have choices. I wish people do build that fits to a precise playstyle, a kind of objective.
Lets say each survivor got a sub role, same goes for the killer, he can choose to be a chaser and have a buff for chases, or a gen controller so he applies a debuff on gens, same for survs, the healer got a heal bonus, etc... And then entity applies rules depending of this overall situation...
Just an example that goes through my mind. The main idea behind this is DIVERSITY, surprises... Fun !
You know.
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Okay I might have made that up..
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GhostFace isn't strong at red ranks. If you are really good at Huntress and get a good map, she can be very good.
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If Devs make a Strong perk people will complain it's to powerful and they will nerf it. And since it's a strong perk a lot of people will use it therefor you will say " please nerf this perk even though i asked for strong perk.
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You didn't specify one false thing I said and instead launched into this non sequiter. You notably do not talk about the specific 'buffs', because if you had then any sensible person would have reasons to question that they were all undiluted 'buffs'. Many issues the survivors seem to currently have with the Spirit comes from not knowing or understanding what has changed since her PTB and release.
If anyone is curious about what those changes are:
- If you are within the terror-radius of her husk, you won't hear her phasing. Prayer Beads or not.
- Prayer Beads went from reducing the sound of phasing to removing it completely.
- Her base recharge time went from 20 to 15 seconds.
- On release, her lunge-speed was increased to match that of other killers, along with Hag and Huntress.
- The animations on the husk were changed to match her usual idle animations seamlessly.
These changes are not game-changing in terms of how to play against the Spirit; there's nothing survivors could do before that they would no longer work afterwards. They say nothing about how viable she was in the PTB or on release and if she has overall been made better with what are mostly 'buffs on-paper'.
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Is a strong surv perk a problem if you run a strong killer ? ;)
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The community for a long time asked about a killer who could vault windows and pallets, you can see where Legion was spawned from.
Legion is a nightmare to change as because of this they will always teeter on the edge of OP and UP.
The one thing you dont want to do is make another killer where a hit is always guaranteed as that is still Legion and why they had to make it so difficult to use their power to actually down someone.
Always remember this is a game, games are for fun, a challenge with learning to be better but its not to lose every match, sometimes you win games easily and sometimes you lose terribly, others will be a challenge and you come out of it thinking how great it was to get that last kill or escape and feel like this one was earned. That is what is fun about mutiplayer games the randomness the opponnents skill.
Making something OP generally only works in solo games, making that in a multiplayer game means you have just created a sceanrio where one side is fodder for the other. No one wants to be this fodder so the majority will always want to play the stronger role as they want to win and its why other games that tried this didnt last long or let you pick what side you play.
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You know... My Post keyword is "strong"... Please no "OP" word here, I'm gagging it.
Were not you having fun with MoM at first ? Old DS , borrowed time, or moonwalking Legion etc ? Yeah you did ;D
Revert it cause it's "too strong" and nobody use it anymore cause its gutted to death... Whats the point of being creative then ? When everyone praise the flatline god of "balance" ?
Balance can have peaks. It doesnt change the weight on both sides of it.
Edit : added some "
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So your saying there's no such thing as something being OP, it would just be "strong". If survivors got a perk that required it took 37 hits to down them instead of 2, that would be fine, right? A perk like that would change the Meta, so yay... Except no one would wanna go against it, so ppl would quit playing and the game would die. It's healthier for the game to have a perk like Monstous shrine than it is to have a perk that's TOO "Strong".
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Well yes and no. Right now everything being released is so under powered that the meta has been stagnant for a VERY long time now.
Basically dead hard, adren, DS and filler.
Its basically been a no heal meta for survivors and ruin, enduring, spirit fury and filler.
They need to start either nerfing the high pick rate perks or buffing substantially bad ones and try to make them more tempting than what is already available and overpicked.
A crap ton of streamers are getting burned out by the meta because its become unfun to go against the exact same thing over and over and over and over
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Your saying "filler" as a catch all... They ARE buffing perks, the latest best example is PGTW. There's also PLENTY of viable perks out there, not just 4 on each side.
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Making things weak and then "buffing them til they're in a comfortable spot" doesn't impact the meta though. Typically that comfortable spot is just below the meta perks which is why the meta is so stagnant. It's almost never worth running over the meta perks
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I don't think your logic when created/balancing some of the perks. MoM was going to be overpowered. Everyone read the perk and automatically knew it was going to be a problem.. They knew that because almost all of the meta survivor perks involve recovery or instant healing a health state and instant heals are insanely powerful for survivor. Unbreakable,Adrenaline,Decisive strike, Borrow time, heck even Deliverance. They all allow you to directly or indirectly gain an instant heal or health state by some condition. Old MoM was such reliable condition that it essentially gave survivors an instant heal med kit every trial. You can measure the strength of a perk often by looking at existing concepts in the game. Now a days, Decisive strike is more powerful then it was before the change because survivors have found a counter to slugging by running into lockers, and since it is a timer, killer who chasing other people may get hit by decisive randomly.
On flip side, perks that are likely to never be used because their concept is weak never get used. For example, how many killers run perks that modify their terror radius? The most common perk is monitor&Abuse. No one runs tinkerer. The new perks that modify terror reduce are even less consistent then old ones. For example, Dark devotion is obsession perk which makes that perk an rng perk that forces you to find an obsession for a chance to surprise someone else. Fugitive chase is another obsession perk that has so many conditions.you have to find obsession, first, than hook it , the terror radius is reduced inside of chase, instead of globally and if obsessions dies, you lose entire perk. I wonder what would be wrong if dark devotion didn't need obsession with fixed cool down and if fugitive didn't make you lose all stacks when survivor died and it just gave global terror radius reduction.
Moral of the story: Perks-types that are strong end up being overly strong and perks that are bad end up being horrifically bad. Most of the perks that are bad stay bad for entire lifespan of the game.
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No disrespect sir..but the last three killers kind of just..died off mostly because they were left underpowered..its been months since the plague was even mentioned..the thing is saying things like this is just that..talk..not to sound ignorant but the killer players are losing faith because every time something even tiny changes gameplay wise, killers foot the bill...(pig with the egc, enduring for convenience, gf due to not waiting and seeing how things went in live) and yet even tiny things like a thanantaphobia buff seem near impossible for us to get
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I never used DS, MoM or moonwalked as they felt really cheap to use. I like a challenge in games and why I dont use exhuastion perks as a survivor or the strongest addons on killer.
Where is the fun in using something that doesn't take any skill to utilise? I like to win by using my knowledge and skill and not have something which leads me by the hand to easy escapes or downs.
Peaks are pointless as the peak eventually needs flattened out. MoM and Legion are classic examples of this. While Legion was not really strong his power could be abused to guarantee an easy down and nothing the survivor did could change that against any competent player.
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I respect the rarity of your mindset, but that's not how the "optimal" crowd think.
About the Mom and Legion classic example, yes, look at how people cry about it being too "flattened". Coincidence ?
Those kind of things needed slight adjustements, but devs dont know how to do it correctly. They too scared a prefer something underpowered so everyone calm down quick. That's not how one set a direction. That is rushing to please the "majority", aka the louder.
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Exactly and why making something strong leads to all those others using it 😉 if it's highly optimal over others the majority will use it so it becomes meta but not in a good way.
Take MoM. A perk we could all see would be meta and spoke up about. We knew a change would have to happen. The issue is they over nerfed it to make it not worth the perk slot over what are considered weak perks as it's whole design punished the killer for just playing the game.
This was the reasoning why I said making something overly strong doesn't work as when they did it needed changed to make it more balanced but the mechanic was so bad unless they completely changed it it could still be too strong with a slight nerf. Both of these took no skill to use they just punished one side with a cheaply made mechanic.
Post edited by twistedmonkey on0 -
This is a very selective telling of what happened and you haven't addressed anything I've said.
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