Question for killer mains
Are you aware that Doc is seriously irritating to play against? (rhetorical, that's not the question...)
Not saying he is difficult to play against. I'm saying he is irritating. It's very rare to get a game against a Doc that won't feel like your doing your taxes with a pencil and paper while chewing on tinfoil.
I ask (this is the question) is there any way we can come to an agreement of how to make Doc both a better killer and less annoying to play against? I'm not trying to start a fight here I really want to make a deal because dear God, I can't take these games anymore.
Flaming toxic posts will be reported btw. You know who you are.
Comments
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Why is he irritating to play against? Not being sarcastic, I genuinely don't understand the dislike many Survivors seem to have for him.
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Not being able to get out of Madness 2 (which is actually very strong with almost any add-on).
The fact that every Doc runs a 3 gen strat and completely overcommits to it when everyone (including killer) has likely pipped and just wants the game to end.
Hopping through a window as I get shocked only to teleport back to the other side, not only giving him a free hit but also upping my madness. I get that I'm limited in my actions, but vaulting is seriously buggy and completely connection dependent in this particular situation. Yes it's intended to stop looping, but it feels broken AF when you lag all over the place because of the connection let alone the character's actual ability. It should be an exception.
Don't get me wrong, I've had fun games against the Doc, but there are specific things he does that just ruin the game entirely, especially the 3 gen strat. It's effective, and if you commit to a chase after a point it's not a big deal, the problem is 90% of Docs running this strat just refuse to let the game end in some way and just insist on dragging out the game for an eternity.
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Madness can be decreased, according to the wiki.
3 gen strat is countered by map awareness. Literally just break up generator clusters. Problem solved.
Vaulting is indeed buggy in that situation, and I understand how much of a pain in the ass it can be even without the Doctor.
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You can only drop from Madness 3 to Madness 2 though (no offense here, but do you play as survivor?). You can't ever drop out of Madness 2, and with add-ons (especially pallet/illusion ones) it makes it really easy to always find you. I think it should be that when you 'snap out' of Madness 3 it drops you to Madness 1. Then if you get to Madness 2 that's still strong for the Doc, but if you get to Madness 3 you have a chance to get rid of Madness 2 effects also, requiring the Doc to hit you more. Because another problem is that in Madness 3 you can't do anything, so if the Doc has madness increasing add-ons and just sits in treatment somewhere, you go from Madness 2 to 3 really fast, to the point you might not have any time at all to do something, making it impossible to go anywhere near the killer for any reasonable amount of time.
And yes I'm aware 3 gen can be countered but it still doesn't stop Docs from doing it. The gens don't necessarily need to be that close, just close enough that Doc can move between them in treatment to keep your madness up (again because you can't get out of 2, making 3 come a lot faster). Then they do this for 20 minutes, even hit people sometimes, but never commit to a chase. Even if the guy is on death hook for fear a survivor might do what, 25% of a gen before he comes back? I mean really Pop Goes The Weasel would be a lot more useful here and then you can actually wind down the game instead of just keeping it locked in an stalemate indefinitely.
EDIT: I also just want to make a distinction here because it came to mind. Vaulting should be allowed when getting shocked because it's buggy when you make it through the window and the teleport back. Pallets, however, do not work this way. There's never a case where you drop a pallet as you get shocked and the pallet isn't dropped. If the pallet is dropped, then it's dropped, so because it's not buggy I have absolutely no problem with the fact that shocking prevents me from dropping a pallet, simply because if I can predict the shock and drop the pallet anyway the game doesn't revert my action and undrop the pallet while simultaneously preventing me from dropping the pallet for another second (thus allowing the killer to both shock and hit me). But when it comes to a vault, Doc should have to choose to shock or hit, not both because the game bugs.
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I don't find him irritating at all.
It's called personal tastes, yours will differ from others and theirs will differ from yours.1 -
I'm fairly certain you can go from Madness 2 to Madness 1 without the "Snap out of it" interaction. I've never reached Madness 2 as a Survivor, but as Killer, I've had Survivors go from Madness 2 to Madness 1 when I go easy on them and stop using Treatment mode. And yes, I do play Survivor, on occasion, though I haven't played the game for some time due to real-life problems.
If the strategy can be countered but isn't, then that's a player problem; not a game problem. No changes are necessary to a strategy that the other team refuses to counter. It'd be like if Killers started demanding a fix to Survivors healing in melee range because they refuse to hit them.
I'd argue that improving the netcode is better than removing this particular interaction.
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To each his own, but it's pretty universal thing among survivors to hate playing against the Doc purely because it will be an annoying game. Like seeing 4 p3 players with flashlights and purple myst as killer, it just won't be fun and you know it.
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Doctor is in this weird position where he's fun to play, but an absolute nightmare to play against. Not because he's overpowered or even viable, but just because he makes you manage a ton more than you're used to. I get it, but I'm still gonna play him. Nothing personal. : P
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@Orion said:
I'm fairly certain you can go from Madness 2 to Madness 1 without the "Snap out of it" interaction. I've never reached Madness 2 as a Survivor, but as Killer, I've had Survivors go from Madness 2 to Madness 1 when I go easy on them and stop using Treatment mode. And yes, I do play Survivor, on occasion, though I haven't played the game for some time due to real-life problems.If the strategy can be countered but isn't, then that's a player problem; not a game problem. No changes are necessary to a strategy that the other team refuses to counter. It'd be like if Killers started demanding a fix to Survivors healing in melee range because they refuse to hit them.
I'd argue that improving the netcode is better than removing this particular interaction.
No you can't. Once you are in Madness 2 you are there forever. I've read through the Doc's wiki, where are you even seeing that you can snap out of 2? I can assure you that those survivors were still in madness 2.
It's not the countering of the strategy, it's the fact that Doc's OVER COMMIT to the strategy. By that I mean that they never seek to actually end the game, just keep it locked indefinitely at 3 gens. It's borderline holding the game hostage. And your example is flawed, because survivors aren't refusing to do the gens. They are trying but they can't. It's physically impossible (or at the very least requires insane optimization even if the killer isn't that good), UNLESS the Doc commits to a chase. But they don't they just circle the last 3 gens, however far they may be, and just never let you do them nor try to kill you (something killers claim they want to do all the time). It's like that game where you have 1 super immersed survivor with the hatch open that refuses to even show themselves and instead just moves enough in some random part of the map you can never go that they don't get crows.
Improving netcode might work but I would honest rather vaulting ignore the Doc's shock attack. It seems like a much better solution that would be a lot easier to implement.
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@BadMrFrosty said:
Doctor is in this weird position where he's fun to play, but an absolute nightmare to play against. Not because he's overpowered or even viable, but just because he makes you manage a ton more than you're used to. I get it, but I'm still gonna play him. Nothing personal. : PNo it's not that honestly. I don't mind the skill checks or crazy mindgames he can do, or the fact he can track you well or stop you from doing some stuff, or that his heartbeat can be confusing AF, or always hearing a heartbeat/seeing a red stain. It makes it a challenge and that's fun. What makes it a nightmare is what I said. The vaults, the over commitment to 3 gen strat, and the fact you can never break Madness 2. That's what makes him annoying to play against, and I can tell you as a survivor main if they fixed these 3 things survivors would complain about Doc far FAR less.
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You don't "snap out" of it. Madness slowly drains on its own when you're not doing anything. I don't think those Survivors were on Madness 2 because there were no hallucinations.
Source: https://deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com/MadnessThey can't protect the last 3 generators if they're all on different corners of the map because Survivors were smart when repairing them. That's what I mean by "map awareness". Sorry, but this is a non-problem.
I do agree that having the Doctor hold the game hostage in that manner is a pain in the ass, and that's why "holding the game hostage" is a reportable offense, but Survivors can and should avoid letting the game get to that point in the first place.I'd rather improve the netcode, because it would benefit the game as a whole.
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No you lose madness based on the progress. So if you were 90% to Madness 2 then it can drain back to 0 if you don't stay in his TR or get shocked. But once you get into Madness 2 it doesn't go away. Likewise, you can be 90% to Madness 3 and then hide and it drains, but it never goes below 2 once you get there. Wiki does make it sound like you can drop from Madness 2, but trust me you can't. You can only drop from Madness 1 99% to Madness 1 0%, Madness 2 99% to Madness 2 0%, or Madness 3 to Madness 2 0% by 'snap out of it'. Those survivors were Madness 2 because you can't get out of it, I'm telling you. Go try it and you will see. You probably didn't see hallucinations because 1) they were never in Madness 2 to begin with, 2) they weren't close to you despite what you thought, or 3) you were looking in another direction when the hallucination popped up. You have to think that because of your perspective you see may not see a hallucination nearby if you didn't look in that direction before it vanished.
Also you still don't understand. Survivors should do the 3 closest gens to avoid this, but that's not the problem. The problem is that the killer never actually tries to kill anyone. I get you don't want me to do the gens, but if you aren't going to try to kill someone in that time what are you doing except just holding the game hostage? That's why I explicitly use the phrase "over commit" because they aren't actually working to end the game, whether that means they kill everyone or they let them do the gens. Survivors made the mistake, now the killer has to capitalize. If they don't then they are just wasting everyone's time.
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I'll find some way to test that...
Yes, Killers holding the game hostage in that manner is a dick move, and they should be reported for it. However, the situation arose because the Survivors didn't think ahead. The 3-gen strategy doesn't need nerfing; people who hold the game hostage just need to be reported and banned.
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@Orion said:
I'll find some way to test that...Yes, Killers holding the game hostage in that manner is a dick move, and they should be reported for it. However, the situation arose because the Survivors didn't think ahead. The 3-gen strategy doesn't need nerfing; people who hold the game hostage just need to be reported and banned.
No need just use YT >
https://youtu.be/72rsQedgx90?t=4m18sSee the icon on the right, that's his madness. The 2 V's mean he is in madness 2. Notice how it never drops to madness 1. NEVER. It just sits at Madness 2 0% until he gets in TR or shocked and it goes up.
Also it definitely does need changes because by virtue of the strategy itself it is a stalemate situation, which is holding the game hostage. That's why Doc's don't commit because by committing to something they reduce the chance the stalemate will continue.
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That's a seven-minute clip. Can you be a little more specific?
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It should be set to a time but just skip to 4:18 if it's not.
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Nerf three gen, encourage commitment to chases. Three gen is a meme build that my ex-doc main self looks down upon heavily, It is not meant to be a serious build and a lot of people see it and decide "Well this youtuber says it's the best". If the devs were to for example make shakey skill checks an add on again and in turn making something like illusion pallets in t2/3 baseline Doc players will be encouraged to pursue a more engaging play style (it does sound op, none of his other add-ons would do the job though, he probably just needs a different mechanic or a base shock increase)
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@Techn0 said:
Nerf three gen, encourage commitment to chases. Three gen is a meme build that my ex-doc main self looks down upon heavily, It is not meant to be a serious build and a lot of people see it and decide "Well this youtuber says it's the best". If the devs were to for example make shakey skill checks an add on again and in turn making something like illusion pallets in t2/3 baseline Doc players will be encouraged to pursue a more engaging play style (it does sound op, none of his other add-ons would do the job though, he probably just needs a different mechanic or a base shock increase)Why should you nerf the result of the Survivors' mistake? If the Killer is holding the game hostage, that's a reason for reporting them. If the Killer is taking advantage of the Survivors' lack of map awareness, that's a reason for the Survivors to play better. Neither is a reason to nerf capitalizing on a mistake.
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@Techn0 said:
Nerf three gen, encourage commitment to chases. Three gen is a meme build that my ex-doc main self looks down upon heavily, It is not meant to be a serious build and a lot of people see it and decide "Well this youtuber says it's the best". If the devs were to for example make shakey skill checks an add on again and in turn making something like illusion pallets in t2/3 baseline Doc players will be encouraged to pursue a more engaging play style (it does sound op, none of his other add-ons would do the job though, he probably just needs a different mechanic or a base shock increase)I'm all for giving Doc's more reason to commit. Maybe we get lucky and Monto mixes in Pop Goes the Weasel on his next Doc 3 gen video so that he can show you go after people so you can kick gens and it's just as effective without stalemating the game (because you are committing to chases/hooks)
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@Orion said:
Why should you nerf the result of the Survivors' mistake? If the Killer is holding the game hostage, that's a reason for reporting them. If the Killer is taking advantage of the Survivors' lack of map awareness, that's a reason for the Survivors to play better. Neither is a reason to nerf capitalizing on a mistake.It's not the survivor mistakes, it's the fact that the build is designed to stalemate the game. If the survivor makes mistakes, then the killer should be killing people. That's not what happens here. Survivors make a mistake than get stuck in a 30 minute game because the killer doesn't play to win, merely play to not lose.
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@thesuicidefox said:
@Orion said:
Why should you nerf the result of the Survivors' mistake? If the Killer is holding the game hostage, that's a reason for reporting them. If the Killer is taking advantage of the Survivors' lack of map awareness, that's a reason for the Survivors to play better. Neither is a reason to nerf capitalizing on a mistake.It's not the survivor mistakes, it's the fact that the build is designed to stalemate the game. If the survivor makes mistakes, then the killer should be killing people. That's not what happens here. Survivors make a mistake than get stuck in a 30 minute game because the killer doesn't play to win, merely play to not lose.
It is a Survivor mistake to leave three generators unfinished in a small area that the Killer can easily control. And again, if the Killer is holding the game hostage, you report them. It's not a reason to nerf a perfectly valid strategy.
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@Orion said:
@Techn0 said:
Nerf three gen, encourage commitment to chases. Three gen is a meme build that my ex-doc main self looks down upon heavily, It is not meant to be a serious build and a lot of people see it and decide "Well this youtuber says it's the best". If the devs were to for example make shakey skill checks an add on again and in turn making something like illusion pallets in t2/3 baseline Doc players will be encouraged to pursue a more engaging play style (it does sound op, none of his other add-ons would do the job though, he probably just needs a different mechanic or a base shock increase)Why should you nerf the result of the Survivors' mistake? If the Killer is holding the game hostage, that's a reason for reporting them. If the Killer is taking advantage of the Survivors' lack of map awareness, that's a reason for the Survivors to play better. Neither is a reason to nerf capitalizing on a mistake.
I know almost all of the killer things in this game are preventable and this is something that really isn't without being a 4 man swf. If the survivors three gen themselves then it sucks to suck at the game but, if the Doc just sits there they really can't do much. So the survivors messing up is on them, the problem is when Doctor players sit at the three gen and do nothing.
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Personally I don't enjoy going against doc because it feels like he's a killer that helps bad killers.
Can't find survivors? How about an aoe that reveals them for you? Can't handle looping well? How about we let you stop them from interacting so you can catch up? Still not enough? We can give you fake pallets to bait them with! Still struggling to catch people? Don't worry bro, we'll randomize skill check placement to make it more likely for them to fail a check, and we'll even give you an entire state where they can't do anything!
I don't think he's OP or anything like that, I just find it annoying his kit is meant to compensate bad killers for their mistakes. For a survivor it feels good to outplay a killer, so a killer that negates a significant portion of your outplays doesn't feel good. That's not even taking into account how good killer players are on him.
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@Abyssionknight Yes annoying is the word that describes him. Doc is definitely geared towards the lesser skilled killers. But I think that you can outplay even a good Doc with all the crazy stuff he can do. It's really hard but it shows your bones as a survivor if you can do it. On some level it's a nice challenge, on other's it's annoying. Again to each his own, but the real problem comes when players abuse the Doc's abilities just to explicitly annoy people. THEN it gets annoying to almost everyone as far as I have seen.
I feel like good Doc's also don't do 3 gen. They use Ruin, BBQ, NC, and Distressing mostly, sometimes Unnerving in place of NC or something, but they commit to chases and kill people while make things a lot more difficult. Still can be annoying, but not absolutely gamebreaking like 3 gen.
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I see a pattern that the killer needs to let you do gens. It's the docs fault for dragging on the game for guarding the objective. The doc needs to commit to a chase. Why is it that it's the doc's job to lose?thesuicidefox said:the problem is 90% of Docs running this strat just refuse to let the game end in some way and just insist on dragging out the game for an eternity.
Counter offer, if you want the game to end walk up to him and let him hook you. Try and Kobe, then let the entity take you back to the campfire.2 -
Doctor isn't irritating, Doctor players are irritating. They play Doctor because he best enables the camping, tunneling and 3-gen strat they rely on. He also gives the most bloodpoints.
When I play Doctor, I play him just like I play all my other Killers. I usually don't camp or tunnel unless the survivor is begging for it via a lap dance(T Bagging). I will admit that I 3-gen strat at times, but only if I have to in order to win.1 -
@azazer said:
thesuicidefox said:the problem is 90% of Docs running this strat just refuse to let the game end in some way and just insist on dragging out the game for an eternity.
I see a pattern that the killer needs to let you do gens. It's the docs fault for dragging on the game for guarding the objective. The doc needs to commit to a chase. Why is it that it's the doc's job to lose?
Counter offer, if you want the game to end walk up to him and let him hook you. Try and Kobe, then let the entity take you back to the campfire.I do actually sometimes, and he doesn't take it. These players insist on dragging out the game. Keeping me from doing gens is fine if you kill people in the process. But if you are just not letting me do gens AND not killing anyone we are stuck in a stalemate.
This also ignores the fact that Doc isn't going to lose. If he's been doing it for more than 10 minutes that Iridescent Gatekeeper. If he got a few hooks and chases before it got to 3 gens, or even a single kill, he pips. HE ALREADY HAS WON! Yet we are still playing because...? I can't answer that.
Like really tell me what I'm supposed to do because I can't do gens and he won't kill me, despite everyone in the game probably getting a pip. What are my other options?
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@RagingCalm said:
Doctor isn't irritating, Doctor players are irritating. They play Doctor because he best enables the camping, tunneling and 3-gen strat they rely on. He also gives the most bloodpoints.
When I play Doctor, I play him just like I play all my other Killers. I usually don't camp or tunnel unless the survivor is begging for it via a lap dance(T Bagging). I will admit that I 3-gen strat at times, but only if I have to in order to win.But when you 3 gen you still will take chases if you can get the kill right? Most Doc's do not do this. They just keep the game in a stalemate indefinitely.
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@thesuicidefox yes, of course. The best thing to do is to keep starting chases until a pallet is dropped, break it, go back to gens. Do this until most of the pallets there are gone, and then chase. A survivor with only windows will be caught fast if you can pull off even just rank 10 mindgames. This is a great strategy for any Killer except for Nurse, because she is nurse.
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Why irritating to play against? I don't have suh a feeling when I play against him which happens rather rarely because he is not the strongest killer^^thesuicidefox said:Are you aware that Doc is seriously irritating to play against? (rhetorical, that's not the question...)
Not saying he is difficult to play against. I'm saying he is irritating. It's very rare to get a game against a Doc that won't feel like your doing your taxes with a pencil and paper while chewing on tinfoil.
I ask (this is the question) is there any way we can come to an agreement of how to make Doc both a better killer and less annoying to play against? I'm not trying to start a fight here I really want to make a deal because dear God, I can't take these games anymore.
Flaming toxic posts will be reported btw. You know who you are.
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Same applies to the survivors, you have to act like their dad and follow them to the exit gates because alone they are scared to leave I guessthesuicidefox said:@azazer said:
thesuicidefox said:the problem is 90% of Docs running this strat just refuse to let the game end in some way and just insist on dragging out the game for an eternity.
I see a pattern that the killer needs to let you do gens. It's the docs fault for dragging on the game for guarding the objective. The doc needs to commit to a chase. Why is it that it's the doc's job to lose?
Counter offer, if you want the game to end walk up to him and let him hook you. Try and Kobe, then let the entity take you back to the campfire.I do actually sometimes, and he doesn't take it. These players insist on dragging out the game. Keeping me from doing gens is fine if you kill people in the process. But if you are just not letting me do gens AND not killing anyone we are stuck in a stalemate.
This also ignores the fact that Doc isn't going to lose. If he's been doing it for more than 10 minutes that Iridescent Gatekeeper. If he got a few hooks and chases before it got to 3 gens, or even a single kill, he pips. HE ALREADY HAS WON! Yet we are still playing because...? I can't answer that.
Like really tell me what I'm supposed to do because I can't do ï and he won't kill me, despite everyone in the game probably getting a pip. What are my other options?
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Ok something isn't adding up. If you walk up to the killer, and he doesn't hit you, then do gens in front of him. He will be forced to let you, hit you or grab you. Either way it's game over. If he lets you do gen, you win, game over. if he hits you, you're downed and bleeding game over. If he grabs you or picks you up don't struggle and he's forced to hook you or drop you to bleed out, game over. I don't see how you are stuck unless you are being disingenuous about your attempt to just let the killer hook you.thesuicidefox said:@azazer said:
thesuicidefox said:the problem is 90% of Docs running this strat just refuse to let the game end in some way and just insist on dragging out the game for an eternity.
I see a pattern that the killer needs to let you do gens. It's the docs fault for dragging on the game for guarding the objective. The doc needs to commit to a chase. Why is it that it's the doc's job to lose?
Counter offer, if you want the game to end walk up to him and let him hook you. Try and Kobe, then let the entity take you back to the campfire.I do actually sometimes, and he doesn't take it. These players insist on dragging out the game. Keeping me from doing gens is fine if you kill people in the process. But if you are just not letting me do gens AND not killing anyone we are stuck in a stalemate.
This also ignores the fact that Doc isn't going to lose. If he's been doing it for more than 10 minutes that Iridescent Gatekeeper. If he got a few hooks and chases before it got to 3 gens, or even a single kill, he pips. HE ALREADY HAS WON! Yet we are still playing because...? I can't answer that.
Like really tell me what I'm supposed to do because I can't do gens and he won't kill me, despite everyone in the game probably getting a pip. What are my other options?
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@azazer said:
Ok something isn't adding up. If you walk up to the killer, and he doesn't hit you, then do gens in front of him. He will be forced to let you, hit you or grab you. Either way it's game over. If he lets you do gen, you win, game over. if he hits you, you're downed and bleeding game over. If he grabs you or picks you up don't struggle and he's forced to hook you or drop you to bleed out, game over. I don't see how you are stuck unless you are being disingenuous about your attempt to just let the killer hook you.No I'm not. If I do the gen I just get shocked and put into Madness 3, which I then have to go an snap out of it far away because he will keep shocking me plus the TR. I can't do the gens, and he won't commit to grabbing me because if he does and carries me to a hook other survivors get to do gens.
Too many Docs do 3 gen and literally lock the game in place for 20+ minutes for no other reason than to troll or because they are too inept to perform the strat correctly. I've faced Docs that will make it super hard to do the last 3 gens but will still kill people. These players are fine, it's the ones that abuse the strat that are the problem.
Not to mention why should I just let the killer hook me in the first place? He won't chase me at all, won't leave the gens for more than 10 seconds. I'm literally stuck and my only option is to... forfeit? Yea that should tell you something about how broken the strategy is. If you can hold a game hostage, regardless if some people don't, it's broken and needs to be nerfed. It's the same reason BHVR is looking into hatch endgame because too many survivors play super immersed and just hide somewhere on the map making it IMPOSSIBLE to find them and holding the game hostage. Sure they could just run to the hatch and/or reveal themselves if they wanted to, but they don't have to and that's the same problem with Doc 3 gen. He doesn't HAVE TO kill us. He can just keep circling jerking the gens indefinitely and there is nothing survivors can do to stop it. You choice is to willingly lose on purpose, by your logic, which just proves how broken it is.
@Master said:
Same applies to the survivors, you have to act like their dad and follow them to the exit gates because alone they are scared to leave I guessThe difference is that you can chase them out and force the game to end. They can't sit there at the gate indefinitely because you can just hit them. Also, I will sit by the exit and wait for 2 reason 1) in case someone is in trouble and needs me to body block for them or rescue from a hook or something (mainly for BP/emblems), or 2) to make the killer waste time. If I'm sitting there right at the exit gate and force the killer to chase me out I am wasting their time that they could be using to find other survivors or go to the other door. Plus doing that gives me Evader points for escaping a chase which can bump up the emblem to the next tier.
Like I said above, BHVR are working on hatch endgame because survivors HAVE THE OPTION to hold the game hostage. The option itself is where the problem lies, because if the option didn't exist, guess what? They wouldn't be able to hold the game hostage. Doc 3 gen is the same thing. Doc HAS THE OPTION to hold the game hostage. Whether he chooses to or not is irrelevant, what matters is he can do it if he wants.
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The problem isn’t really Doctor himself, it’s his players. Doc just happens to be the best Killer in the game for doing a 3 gen strat, and some of his players decide to abuse his tools and use them in unintended ways.
Overcommitting to a three gen strat just seems really freaking boring in my opinion. Whenever I do a three gen strat, I make sure to try to get a kill. I didn’t buy this game to run around some gens for three hours.
I really don’t have a problem trying to escape Doctor. I think it’s fun trying to escape him with all of his extra effects. It all comes down to personal preference really. Some people hate going against him while others enjoy it. Also, I’m pretty sure McCote or someone at BHVR said that Doctor is supposed to feel OP. You’re supposed to feel like you have to watch out for many different things at once. He’s supposed to put you on edge. I might be wrong about that though.1 -
@thesuicidefox said:
Are you aware that Doc is seriously irritating to play against? (rhetorical, that's not the question...)Not saying he is difficult to play against. I'm saying he is irritating. It's very rare to get a game against a Doc that won't feel like your doing your taxes with a pencil and paper while chewing on tinfoil.
I ask (this is the question) is there any way we can come to an agreement of how to make Doc both a better killer and less annoying to play against? I'm not trying to start a fight here I really want to make a deal because dear God, I can't take these games anymore.
Flaming toxic posts will be reported btw. You know who you are.
Yes.
I'm fully aware, and I sometimes play him to make survivor's game more stressful and annoying, similarly to the usual killer's sensations.3 -
Too much maps with vault spots and jungle gyms is a hell no to nerf. You might hate the killer but that's not an excuse to make an m1 killer horrendously weak at jungle gyms. As for countering him as survivor I put my ass on the line going for these gens early on. If ever we end up 3 gen strated I will put myself in harms way to get the last gen. This almost guarantees an additional kill for the killer but bad plays have consequences. This strat often heavily relies on overcharge which with practise can be dealt with.thesuicidefox said:@Orion said:
I'm fairly certain you can go from Madness 2 to Madness 1 without the "Snap out of it" interaction. I've never reached Madness 2 as a Survivor, but as Killer, I've had Survivors go from Madness 2 to Madness 1 when I go easy on them and stop using Treatment mode. And yes, I do play Survivor, on occasion, though I haven't played the game for some time due to real-life problems.If the strategy can be countered but isn't, then that's a player problem; not a game problem. No changes are necessary to a strategy that the other team refuses to counter. It'd be like if Killers started demanding a fix to Survivors healing in melee range because they refuse to hit them.
I'd argue that improving the netcode is better than removing this particular interaction.
No you can't. Once you are in Madness 2 you are there forever. I've read through the Doc's wiki, where are you even seeing that you can snap out of 2? I can assure you that those survivors were still in madness 2.
It's not the countering of the strategy, it's the fact that Doc's OVER COMMIT to the strategy. By that I mean that they never seek to actually end the game, just keep it locked indefinitely at 3 gens. It's borderline holding the game hostage. And your example is flawed, because survivors aren't refusing to do the gens. They are trying but they can't. It's physically impossible (or at the very least requires insane optimization even if the killer isn't that good), UNLESS the Doc commits to a chase. But they don't they just circle the last 3 gens, however far they may be, and just never let you do them nor try to kill you (something killers claim they want to do all the time). It's like that game where you have 1 super immersed survivor with the hatch open that refuses to even show themselves and instead just moves enough in some random part of the map you can never go that they don't get crows.
Improving netcode might work but I would honest rather vaulting ignore the Doc's shock attack. It seems like a much better solution that would be a lot easier to implement.
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I have to admit I am a fan of the 3 gen strat, especially when I see a rush is happening while I get the first little sausage on the hook. However this again falls to survives not to leave gens close enough its viable. It was mentioned as well a doc can just keep zapping you, but while hes doing that another individual can complete a gen. The 3 gen strat may prolong a game but its not taking the game hostage. Also just a note, I find flash lights super annoying but still have to accept there part of the game, same as I feel survives have to accept Doc and his uses.
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@Zarathos said:
Too much maps with vault spots and jungle gyms is a hell no to nerf. You might hate the killer but that's not an excuse to make an m1 killer horrendously weak at jungle gyms. As for countering him as survivor I put my ass on the line going for these gens early on. If ever we end up 3 gen strated I will put myself in harms way to get the last gen. This almost guarantees an additional kill for the killer but bad plays have consequences. This strat often heavily relies on overcharge which with practise can be dealt with.Except that leaping through a window while getting shocked is extremely buggy. Most times you make it through the window and teleport back. If the opposite were to happen I'm sure you would be crying foul and asking for a fix. It's broken, it's buggy. If they want to make it so that shocks cause slow vault I'm totally fine with that, but I'm tired of being teleported back to the other side of the window. And no you can't avoid it because it's connection based. Sometimes I can jump through a window and run for a full second and still teleport back. On rare occasions I get shocked while going through the window which stops me on my screen but then I teleport to the other side as if I went through. While this is admittedly good for me, it's still buggy AF. Make it a slow vault if you want but it shouldn't fully STOP you from going through the window, because then the killer gets a shock AND hit. You should have to choose one, not get both because your connection sucks.
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Already being nerfed, the deja vu perk will show closest gens each time to help new peeps not run into this issue. For doc it is best to leave the perimeter gens until the end to have the doc travel the distance.Techn0 said:Nerf three gen, encourage commitment to chases. Three gen is a meme build that my ex-doc main self looks down upon heavily, It is not meant to be a serious build and a lot of people see it and decide "Well this youtuber says it's the best". If the devs were to for example make shakey skill checks an add on again and in turn making something like illusion pallets in t2/3 baseline Doc players will be encouraged to pursue a more engaging play style (it does sound op, none of his other add-ons would do the job though, he probably just needs a different mechanic or a base shock increase)
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The 3 gen strategy is the result of survivors not being map-aware. Why should a killer be punished for a survivor mistake?
It's not taking the game hostage if the intent is to score a kill. And if I'm guarding 3 gens, my intent is to eventually catch somebody in a mistake and get somebody on a hook. Holding a game hostage is blocking somebody in a basement then going AFK for an hour.
You have plenty of clues as to where generators are with their lights poles, flickering lights in houses, closed doors, ect. Hell, I make it a policy when I'm survivor that if I finish a gen, I don't do the next one down the line, I skip it and move to the next one. This is also not taking into account like maps and the upcoming changes to Deja Vu.
Survivors are given every tool to prevent this issue from happening - and most Doc mains aren't out to set up the nest unless they see the survivors have started painting themselves in a corner.
It's not holding the game hostage to employ this strategy if handed the opportunity to do so
The survivor's fun is not the responsibility of the killer anymore than it's the killer's fun is the survivor's responsibility. Your purpose is to meet your objectives, nothing less, nothing more.
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As for the window thing - welcome to peer to peer networking. Killer is always a game state or 2 ahead of you. What he saw? You were clearly on HIS side of the window when you got zapped, you just got the update late.
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@FrenziedRoach said:
As for the window thing - welcome to peer to peer networking. Killer is always a game state or 2 ahead of you. What he saw? You were clearly on HIS side of the window when you got zapped, you just got the update late.Right but this doesn't happen with pallets. He can hit you through the pallet but if the pallet drops it drops. There's never a situation where you drop a pallet and the game undrops it. But with vaulting that's basically what happens. It's already bad enough when a killer hits you after you vaulted and are 3m clear of the window because of bad connection, it shouldn't be made worse by the killers power.
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@thesuicidefox said:
Right but this doesn't happen with pallets. He can hit you through the pallet but if the pallet drops it drops. There's never a situation where you drop a pallet and the game undrops it. But with vaulting that's basically what happens. It's already bad enough when a killer hits you after you vaulted and are 3m clear of the window because of bad connection, it shouldn't be made worse by the killers power.
It likely has happened, but the pallet drop animation is so short that if you got sent back in time, you won't notice it. The window of opportunity is much shorter
Without the ability to stop pallet drops and windows, the Doctor becomes a low tier killer. We know this because this is how he was at launch - his shock did literally nothing except create madness and give away people hiding behind walls. He was so bad the devs reworked him a couple months after he was released
.Killer should not be nerfed due to shortcomings in the net code. What should be happening is you need to take that stuff into account and try to give yourself more cushion to make those vaults.
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@FrenziedRoach said:
@thesuicidefox said:
Right but this doesn't happen with pallets. He can hit you through the pallet but if the pallet drops it drops. There's never a situation where you drop a pallet and the game undrops it. But with vaulting that's basically what happens. It's already bad enough when a killer hits you after you vaulted and are 3m clear of the window because of bad connection, it shouldn't be made worse by the killers power.
It likely has happened, but the pallet drop animation is so short that if you got sent back in time, you won't notice it. The window of opportunity is much shorter
Without the ability to stop pallet drops and windows, the Doctor becomes a low tier killer. We know this because this is how he was at launch - his shock did literally nothing except create madness and give away people hiding behind walls. He was so bad the devs reworked him a couple months after he was released
.Killer should not be nerfed due to shortcomings in the net code. What should be happening is you need to take that stuff into account and try to give yourself more cushion to make those vaults.
I get that but when you have something that is buggy like that it just shouldn't be in the game, PERIOD. Doesn't matter if it nerfs the character or not, it's broken and needs a fix.
Like I said I'm fine with it at pallets. That shouldn't change. Vaults need to change though. If getting shocked makes you slow vault, I'm totally fine with that. Or if getting shocked while going through a window closed it off for a short time (like Bamboozle) I'm fine with that too. But making it through the window only to teleport back AND get shocked AND get hit is bogus.
Also expecting a player to predict latency is not good game design. I shouldn't have to jump through a window 3 seconds earlier (which is probably impossible BTW) to avoid this bug. That's like saying I should avoid the killer hitting me 3 seconds ago because of the lag. Yea, no, it doesn't work that way.
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@thesuicidefox said:
I get that but when you have something that is buggy like that it just shouldn't be in the game, PERIOD. Doesn't matter if it nerfs the character or not, it's broken and needs a fix.
Like I said I'm fine with it at pallets. That shouldn't change. Vaults need to change though. If getting shocked makes you slow vault, I'm totally fine with that. Or if getting shocked while going through a window closed it off for a short time (like Bamboozle) I'm fine with that too. But making it through the window only to teleport back AND get shocked AND get hit is bogus.
Also expecting a player to predict latency is not good game design. I shouldn't have to jump through a window 3 seconds earlier (which is probably impossible BTW) to avoid this bug. That's like saying I should avoid the killer hitting me 3 seconds ago because of the lag. Yea, no, it doesn't work that way.
I play plenty of both and I have never seen this bug. I'm also a doc main who has not only triple prestiged, but have played him enough to have every single perk in the game on him now. I have NEVER seen the window animation get interrupted. If I hit them while they are in the animation, the animation goes through even as they scream. As a survivor, at the most, I've been yanked off the sill by a doctor zap, but never teleported. If this is happening a lot to you, you might need to be more aware of the ping of the killer's you are connecting to because that there sounds like a latency issue, especially if your saying a 3 second head start is needed.
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@FrenziedRoach said:
@thesuicidefox said:
I get that but when you have something that is buggy like that it just shouldn't be in the game, PERIOD. Doesn't matter if it nerfs the character or not, it's broken and needs a fix.
Like I said I'm fine with it at pallets. That shouldn't change. Vaults need to change though. If getting shocked makes you slow vault, I'm totally fine with that. Or if getting shocked while going through a window closed it off for a short time (like Bamboozle) I'm fine with that too. But making it through the window only to teleport back AND get shocked AND get hit is bogus.
Also expecting a player to predict latency is not good game design. I shouldn't have to jump through a window 3 seconds earlier (which is probably impossible BTW) to avoid this bug. That's like saying I should avoid the killer hitting me 3 seconds ago because of the lag. Yea, no, it doesn't work that way.
I play plenty of both and I have never seen this bug. I'm also a doc main who has not only triple prestiged, but have played him enough to have every single perk in the game on him now. I have NEVER seen the window animation get interrupted. If I hit them while they are in the animation, the animation goes through even as they scream. As a survivor, at the most, I've been yanked off the sill by a doctor zap, but never teleported. If this is happening a lot to you, you might need to be more aware of the ping of the killer's you are connecting to because that there sounds like a latency issue, especially if your saying a 3 second head start is needed.
Yea.... because you are host as killer. What you see is not what the client sees. It has definitely happened to me and many people I know many times. I know because I was there, or they scream at me "BULL ######### I just teleported back".
And ping is variable. It can change, maybe the dudes GF started streaming Netflix and it caused a spike. Maybe a squirrel rubbed his nuts on the wire connected to the house. It can happen, and it does happen. I've even seen it happen to streamers/YTer's though I can't quote you a specific video.
PS. Just to add I have not literally seen a squirrel rub its nuts on the wire to my house, but there is a strange substance up there and IDK whose else it could be.
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To be fair, if the survivors leave three gens up right next to each other there's only a few killers that can't capitalize on that. It's not JUST a Doctor thing lol. If survivors goof up the last three gens it's their own fault. Myself included have made that mistake. The new Deja Vu will help fix that so if you consistently run into this for an issue, run that.0
