So apparently looping is an exploit now?
......that's it I guess.
Just saw someone say this in another thread and I know I shouldn't take half the people on here seriously but...... huh?
What.... exactly should survivors be doing? Running straight lines from pallet to pallet, slamming them and moving on? That MAY keep you alive for 2-3 gens if you're lucky but then everyone who gets chased after that is dying in 30 seconds or less.
Are we really throwing around the word "exploit" for people who don't run in straight lines?
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Some people like to call strategies due to how the game works an exploit which is very hypocritical once you realize using that same definition you can call anything an exploit. Just ignore them,usually not worth the time.
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Some people still call it an exploit because they refuse to accept facts.
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It always have been.
The very definition of an exploit is to use something to gain an unfair advantage and in this case, survivors are using their smaller collision boxes to GAIN DISTANCE on killers by pressing themselves closer to objects than a killer can.
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So by your definition of using something to gain an unfair advantage, just about everything can be considered an exploit.
-Moonwalking to a pallet to hide your stain
-Half the survivor perks (being generous there because most survivor perks are trash)
-Most of the killer perks
-Getting bloodlust and becoming faster when you're already faster than the survivors to begin with
-Bringing a medkit to increase healing speed
-Toolbox to increase gen speed (only scrubs use toolboxes on gens XD)
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Devs don't see it as an exploit and since it's their game they get to define what is and isn't an exploit.
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Yes and No.
Looping is fine, but on some Maps are rly broken spots.
And I have many games with Map Offerings and this people run exactly to this spot.
Just an Example:
On 1 corn map with the building in the middle.
There are some fences with 2-3 pallets.
Killer can hit over fences, but mindgames are impossible on them.
I could waste 2-4 min from the killer time on this special spots.
And thats rly easy, because mindgames are impossible on this spot.
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Survivors can be totally blamed for its existence. They lobbied the devs for it and resisted every single time it had a whiff of nerf incoming. They are not neutral bystanders who can't be blamed for using whatever the game gives them to win, they had a hand in the game being steered in that direction.
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The devs even did the math on the hitbox looping and yes it is cheating but they still did nothing. I would just add drag to walls to fix it but meh it's their game to lose players to.
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I guess pallet vacuum never got removed then.
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Turning left or right is an exploit
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Care to back that up with some evidence or we just throwing out random claims now?
Also..... still wouldn't make it an "exploit"
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Survivors leaving through the exit gate is also an exploit, since the Entity blocks it for killer. 😂😂😂😂
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The survivor version of tractor tech is an exploit. ;)
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For real though, looping, like tractor/pallet tech is a game evolution and I’m excited to see what we discover in the future.
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Looping is not an exploit in most cases. Though I did have a game last night where the entity blocker never came up on the fractured cow shed window, making that an infinite. In that case I would consider than an exploit.
It was rather annoying.
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Honestly I can't believe that this is still even a thing, its not. this is coming from a killer main
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It is, at least if we go by the definition of exploit that simply means to use something well and effectively for an advantage. Sorta like "exploiting the land for agriculture", it's not some inherently dirty word. It just so happens that the definition that specifically refers to (ab)using something for an explicitly unfair advantage is the one most adopted within gaming communities over the years.
If anything a "benign exploit" within gaming often goes falls under something else - emergent gameplay. While there's actions that fall right into the "unfair advantage" side of things like the Legion blades bug, Wake Up bug and others, there's also a lot of things in the game that are more comparable to stuff like rocket jumping or all the weird advanced movement mechanics in Super Smash Bros: Melee - things that started out as unintended quirks but were adopted, and in the case of rocket jumping HEAVILY adopted even by later titles in the genre and similar/inspired genres.
Considering a lot of people that consider looping an unfair exploit cite the hitbox differences as the root cause, wouldn't that be fairly simple to fix if the devs considered it explicitly undesirable behavior? The fact it's still a thing makes it seem more like it has been embraced as emergent gameplay if you ask me, just like moonwalking to hide the red stain is and dribbling old DS used to be.
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Have you ever heard of breaking the pallet?
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Of course it's an exploit. Everytime a survivor loops a pallet/window, they should immediately get exhausted and break their legs. Boom, balanced and not as broken as looping is.
/s
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You are (ab)using or exploiting the difference in collision sizes to gain an advantage in distance.
And some people here ridiculing this very definitive exploitation of game mechanics kinda proves the past sirvivor agenda.
The controversy part is why we're even having this discussion
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Killers are faster than survivors and can catch up to a survivor easily if they hug loops like a survivor does. It's not an exploit and never has been. If a dev has stated it is not an exploit, it is indeed not. Stop spreading this nonsense.
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I heard about it.
But survivors can loop this spots for ~1 min before dropping it.
And then they run to the next fence with pallet.
Some spots are just broken.
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I never stated i was a dev nor did I asume or know the devs stated it an "exploit" or not. All I did was stating the fact that looping is, by definition of exploits, an exploit
"In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers." Incase you or others didnt read my provided link, this is the first sentence of the article.
Now please tell me that looping isnt extending the chase duration by taking advantage of (synonym for "to exploit" btw) the difference in collision sizes around objects.
I am aware wikipedia isnt the most credible of sources to use but the article provided atleast includes the controversy of exploits being good or bad, the reasaon we're even discussing this.
"And while killers can still get looping survivors because theyre faster and have bloodlust, Bloodlust was given to killers because chases were taking too long, probably the reason being looping"
Im not actually too fond of continuing this discussion because it's obvious looping will not be adressed, either because its not an "exploit" or survivormain agenda
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Uh didn't the devs specifically increase the killer hitbox so that this could occur though? i believe they also talked about this and the balance of it in a dev stream ages ago, and how around the same circular or square loops they have to and do account for the distance lost by the killer. the killer has a larger hitbox yes, by design but they are also much faster by design to make up for the gained distance both from pallet blockages, window vaults and looping.
Looping isn't an exploit. things done to loop infinitely are, such as windows not being blocked by the entity, or theoretical infinite's being abused (ie like some of the old loops and how they had to take specific windows out because killers cannot catch up even with bloodlust or with window blockers simply because there's no route for the killer to take).
Simply running around the same pallet/object isn't an exploit if the killer refuses to break the pallet. as they will have to when the survivor eventually throws it down because no matter what, on every loop a killer is always going to be faster then a survivor.
I mean Badham is the perfect example of balanced looping. technically most pallets on there are unsafe, being both infinitely loop able, and easy downs, depending on how good the survivor/killer is at both mind games and how ballsy they want to be towards each other at getting/dodging strikes. yet all the "loops" can be broken, by the killer.
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This has nothing to do with a "survivor main agenda" (if such a thing even exist).
You say looping wasn't intended by the devs. I doubt killers moonwalking to hide their stain was intended by the devs but it was something cool and useful that players found out they could do through playing the game.
I doubt 360'ing was an "intended mechanic" of the devs. It was just something players found out they could do.
I doubt slugging was an "intended mechanic" of the game but people figured out they could do it.
The idea that the devs would've had to thought of everything beforehand and intended it to be that way for something not to be an exploit is ridiculous
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Also, exploits are typically things that need to be addressed/removed from a game. If you're suggesting removing looping, what do you want survivors to do exactly?
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Infinites are exploits, like Balanced Landing on the Strode house. That's it.
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I'm glad there are still rational people (survivor or killer mains) on the forums to have discussions with because I think the extremist on both sides come out the blue with absurd claims, and some of us who are survivor mains think "oh ALL killer mains think/play like this" and likewise some killer mains think "all survivor mains think/play like that".
In reality, most of us are rational middle ground people who understand these extreme/ridiculous opinions are only held by a select few.
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Again using your definition you create a situation where anything can be defined as an exploit.
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Looping is annoying but it’s not an exploit, just poor design/RNG.
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I assume you're talking about me. Yes, technically Looping is an exploit. I have this on a document saved for Copy/Paste to explain.
History lesson for you : Back before patch 1.4.0 Looping was nowhere near as powerful as it is today. In Patch 1.4.0 the developers re-sized the Survivors hit boxes to be smaller, in order to help Survivors not get hit out in the open so easy, and to help compensate for latency issues. This had an unintentional effect, as Survivors found out they could now hug objects much tighter than before. This, in turn, meant they could run around objects in tighter, and therefore, faster circles than Killers could. Before this, you could get MAYBE one Loop out of a Pallet. Instead of the usual 2-3 now, before having to drop it. Thus, Looping as it is known today was born.This, by all accounts, makes Looping an Exploit as it fits the definition of video game exploits.
See Link here -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_exploit
Survivors, still reeling from the loss of true Infinites, took to this like fish to water. The developers planned to fix it at first, but quickly decided to leave it in the game and try to balance around it due to pressure from their Survivor player base. The majority player base of Survivor Mains just couldn't win without having something that was blatantly game breaking to abuse. Most Survivors then told the biggest lie in the games history : "We want to be chased all game! That's whats fun!" In order to protect this new exploit. The developers caved, and have been struggling to re-balance the game for its inclusion ever since.
Killers were simply ill-equipped to deal with Looping and Stealth. This is why Killers now have a PLETHORA of aura reading perks, add ons, powers, and abilities. The developers gave the Survivors what they wanted, to be chased all game and let them have their loops. They are simply trying to give both sides what they want. Killers the power to be able to stand up to Looping, Survivors the game play they wanted. Though truth is, neither side is very happy.
In short : Killers are getting the balance they wanted (I say getting cause they still aren't there yet). However, not the game play they want.
Survivors are got the game play they wanted, but not the balance they want (as in being OP as hell).
Throughout the History of DBD the balance of the game has been nothing but the Survivors bunny hoping from one broken thing to abuse to the next. Infinites, Looping, Instant-Blind Flashlights, Pre-nerf Brand New Parts (The first nerf wasn't enough, and the second wasn't either. Only after the third and most recent nerf is BNP balanced), and finally Gen Rushing with Looping. Killers had only one truly game breaking exploit they abused the crap out of that lasted for any decent amount of time, and that was Machine Gun Build.
Even now, survivors are STILL abusing a plethora of things that break the game's balance. Most noteworthy being SWF on voice comms. Mostly paired with three things that have yet to be addressed from the OG that are broken as well when SWF teams have them at their disposal : Large amounts of Keys for early hatch, large amounts of Instant heal med kits, and rushing the crap out of the gens. This was exacerbated by the very LONG period of time where Survivors could D/C and not lose their items. Something they abused the CRAP out of to stock pile MASSIVE amounts of these items.
Killers have been pigeon holed into playing a very strict meta of Ruin and Aura Reading perks to deal with Looping and Gen Rushing, which even then still doesn't work very well.
Many games have taken exploits found by players and lets them stay, or balanced the game around the ability to do these exploits and it made the game more fun. The DBD Devs are simply trying to do the same, however they are failing pretty hard at it. The way the game is played out with certain mechanics with the Gens and hook system, Looping is still far too powerful.
I'm sure the developers will someday get the balance right, but I digress. Don't get so hung up on the definition and get upset. Looping is technically an exploit, however it's allowed. Just because it's allowed, doesn't change that it is what it is, an exploit.
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Idk if it was you specifically because half the times, I don't read names but maybe it was.
Either way: there's a couple of flat out false or ignorant statements in here.
- It's true that being chased is the most fun part of survivor. There's no lie there so idk why you're making that out to be some big lie.
- Even with looping, the bloodlust mechanic makes it so that killers will eventually catch up to the survivor anyway.
- Hitboxes are STILL broken so the survivor hitboxes apparently aren't small enough
- You said the only game breaking things the killer had was machine gun build. I guess you were cool with double blade Legion infinite mending. Or the moonwalking Legion bs. Or body blocking hooks before the hooks were changed to be omni-directional. Sounds like you got some bias there but okay
- The game is more balanced than you think and if survivors were as "OP" as you claim they were, you'd see higher survival rates and more escapes.
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Ridiculous, it's like if someone was complaining about tunneling...oh wait...
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- Fun is subjective. Many Survivors including myself don't find being chased the most fun. Myself personally, I like crouching and hiding in obscure spots and the Killer being close but not finding. Nothing is more exciting to me than holding my breath IRL cause i'm so tense the Killer may find me. I say it was a lie, because most Survivors who did say that, were simply trying to protect the new Looping exploit after they lost true Infinites. Most Survivors DIDN'T say that until that point and had a "OMG WHY ME?! WHY WAS I FOUND FIRST?!" BAck when Stealth was a the meta.
- Bloodlust was a band aid to try to fix Looping, which didn't work. Still doesn't work to this day. By the time you catch up with Bloodlust, you have already lost the chase (and probably the whole game) by letting it drag on that long.
- Hitboxes are not broken against Survivors. That's latency, most Survivors cry foul at hit boxes cause they want something to blame.
- I said "for any decent amount of time." Double Blade Legion was around for a paltry amount of time compared to most of the Survivor exploits. Same with Moonwalking Legion. I also love when Bias Survivors like yourself don't realize that Survivors can body block the hook prompt too. Though "ITZ AN EXPLOIT!!!!1111" when Killers do it, but not an exploit when Survivors do the EXACT SAME thing. The developers should have made the hooks omni-directional for both sides to be fair, but can't fix TOO many Survivor exploits or they review bomb the game and cry and whine.
- Sure, lets that the developers stats to heart. You know, the ones that count Disconnects as Kills. The stats that include Survivors who decide to Suicide at the endgame cause of greed. JUST CAN'T leave that one poor dude that got caught at the end to die. Gotta run back in and turn an easy 3 man escape into 3k or 4k. Really nice job to balance a game based on Survivors doing something TOTALLY optional they DON'T have to do just because they are greedy for points. Want stats that are true? Don't count disconnects as Kills, and show how many are alive/dead after the 5 Gens are done. Not post match. NEVER balance a game based on players doing something optional they don't have to do.
Now then, maybe you shouldn't be so ignorant and bias so you can see things for what they really are. This game is riddled covered up mistakes by the developers and band aid tools to try to fix what is blatantly broken. All in order to appease the majority player base.
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I’m not sure if it’s an exploit, but I find looping really boring for both sides. It’s not exactly scary or engaging to just run around a rock a few times to avoid the killer, but it works. I almost feel like I’m sabotaging my team by not looping because I’m not being as time efficient as I could be. It’s not how I want to play, but I feel like I have to.
And as killer, I feel like I either need to play anti-looping killers (Nurse/Spirit) or have a more difficult and boring game.
I hope looping is looked at in the near future. It’s overall not a very interesting or fun way to play.
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"WHY ARE SURVIVORS RUNNING AWAY!!!"
Thats what i read.
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Looping is the funnest part of the game, it's especially fun when you're an experienced survivor and the killer that's chasing you is around the same skill level, makes for some interesting chases.
Chase is fine and should stay the way it is
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So I can't say I'm a veteran player here, only been here about a month. But maybe someone can clear this up for me. It's my understanding that when this game first came out and got a popularity that looping was not a game mechanic considered by the devs in their design of the game. But when this started being one of the prominent survivor stategy, because it is very effective when done well, the devs supported it as an appropriate strat and not something reportable.
Wouldn't this be more appropriately termed emergent gameplay, especially in a fairly unique pvp game like this? Exploit is really too strong a word for this, and frankly just the wrong one. In a game like this the meta will be strongly originally formed by the playerbase, then built on and modified as needed by the devs. I came over here from playing league of legends for almost a decade, same was very true there as well.
Since alot of people seem to think this is relative to forum opinions, I am mostly a killer main at about 80 percent of my games played. I find looping frustrating to deal with, absolutely, but that's how an effective survivor stategy should feel for me. It's not super OP most of the maps, even though I don't play strong killers cause I'm just having fun playing wraith and doctor.
Let me know your thoughts.
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I'm going to be that person and point out that, per the definition you quoted in this exact comment, something cannot be considered an exploit unless it falls outside of the game designers' intentions. Given that the devs themselves have confirmed that they do not consider looping an exploit, it cannot be considered one under your definition.
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I dunno why people call looping an exploit, and a lot of people want to nerf looping, but let's be honest. If a chase ends quicker, that's going to be much more boring than if it takes longer. I know everyone hates holding M1 on a generator but nerfing looping would just make the game easier for the killer without actually extending game time. In fact shortening it. Games already go fast, so why are we trying to make them go faster? If every pallet is just immediately unsafe, and you pretty much HAVE to drop pallets almost immediately, the game is basically going to be HEAVILY killer favored to the point that they'll likely get a 3k much more often.
On Badham I've found a few pallets that honestly shouldn't even exist. Basically structures in a straight line with a pallet in-between that are really short. This type of pallet does nothing for the survivor, and is a detriment, for example, only built to end a chase as quick as possible when usually there are no other pallets anywhere nearby them.
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Looping isn't an exploit, it's intended and emergent gameplay.
However, some loops are exploitable because they were designed prior to the current incarnation of the game.
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As a killer main i only call (nearly) Infinites on some Maps "Exploit", because it takes not even a little bit of skill to pass these infinites and only Nurse or Bamboozle can shut em down.
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Read @SovererignKing 's history lesson in this thread. As far I remember, the devs a) didnt really understand what looping is by the time they talked about it on stream, and b) they were thinking about undping the collision changes but survivors lobbied together SUDDENLY wanted to be chased the whole game (obviously because looping made it a lot easier).
If chases get shorter, survivors cannot dumbly "just do gens without a care necause someone else can loop the killer for all that time" causing the main reason for "way too short" trials to be lessened.
But in case it wasnt obvious by the attitude in this thread, looping itself will never be removed because the devs caved in 2 years ago and turned it into the apaarent main feature for survivors.
The whole survivor strategy/mentality of "stalling" the killer instead of juking them to give enough safety for genrush and those "way too quick" trials even some survivors despise all hinge on looping.
Oh for OP: it has not been "suddenly" been considered an exploit "now", it started the day it was created.
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@Raptorrotas Except I see killers complain about 30 second chases. If chases become short, people will be hooked faster, people will die faster, and gens won't get done. It'll just shift the balance to where killers 4k most of the time without even bringing addons, and survivors will go from doing gens to going down really fast. Also, looping is the only way for a survivor to survive. Any killer with decent set of eyes will rarely lose sight of a survivor, and even if they do, it won't be for long. Add to that the constant nerfs to stealth on survivors while buffing the stealth of killers(meaning survivors don't even know where there are and thus cannot stealth), games will just end way too quickly. If looping ever goes away, or is nerfed heavily, the only thing that could make surviving longer an option would be adding more gens but keeping the required gens completed the same.
I also see a lot of conflicting opinions in this regard. Some people say "I want loops to be nerfed so survivors don't run me for 5 gens. I want to be the "power role" and for survivors to have to hide from me" and then I see those same people saying "I want to be able to find survivors easier."
Also I'm pretty sure the main reason games are too fast is because people don't care about healing anymore. They've adapted after the SC nerfs. Now they just do gens asap and try to get the hell out. I think people just want everyone to be those immersed Claudettes who run to the corner of the map to self care or drag the unhooked/unhooker with them so the game lasts longer, but that's not gonna happen.
Post edited by Atrushan88 on1 -
Looping is the easy way for survivors to survive, not the only one. Except it takes more work to evade a chase than just loopdaloop. Killers getting more tools (read:aura perks) to find survivors was the devs response to survivors finding chases more "fun" than other stuff. So the devs gave killers those "tools" to initiate more "fun" chases.
Its if as other survivors were the source of survivor troubles.
Imagine this: looping makes survivors so safe/confident that they dont see a need to heal.
There are supposedly somemythical survivors who can evade chases even when injured, but they cannot be real, afterall survivors can only loop.
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Just a round up: looping per se isn't an exploit. But killers will call you an exploiter if you EXPLOIT an extremely safe loop (you keep running to the same place and keep running circles there until the end of the game).
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A big part in the game breaking pallet-looping we have today, is played by the completely unnecessary pallet omegabuffs introduced in the dreaded patch 1.1.1.: both the time-window and the range for a pallet-stun were made absurdly generous -to the point that killers can be stunned through walls and around corners.
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The whole game is an exploit.
Not really.
I lied.
It really is.
Tear down the loops. Survivors are slower but outrunning my killer friends. They have pallets but won't use them. I hit them and they run away to another loop.
They steal my time, they're time stalkers.
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First of all, yes some people use words "wrong". This is especially true for younger or less experienced people who are trying to be part of the conversation but don't fully understand the concepts behind the words being used - and to some extent, we all do it in one way or another and at one time or another.
Technically, they are correct. Let's have a deeper look.
So first of all, let's establish what "Exploit" means in a video game.
Broadly speaking, an Exploit is using something in the game in a way that was not originally intended by the developers in order to gain an advantage.
This includes items, hit boxes and level design as well.
So technically, yes, looping is an exploit because it is taking advantage of level design in a way that the developers didn't originally anticipate (early gameplay footage of the devs playing DBD clearly shows no looping).
Now, obviously, those of us who have been in the Fog for a while know that "looping" (or "efficient movement during a chase") is part of the core gameplay. Even though the devs themselves didn't think of it originally, it's something that has become prevalent enough to be core, something that the players "canonized" and we as a community have learned not only to expect and accept as part of the gameplay, but have largely moved away from seeing it as an exploit or as griefing or bad-mannered gameplay.
In general, perceiving looping (by itself) as toxic behaviour or mean-spirited gameplay is something that is associated with newer players who don't quite understand the game yet.
I don't even really think of it as "looping" anymore, I think in terms of pathing and efficient movement.
The only thing that I think I, as well as others who have played DBD for a long time, still think of as "toxic" or at least not entirely wholesome gameplay is looping a particular feature that is very, very strong and thus very, very unfair to most Killers. We're talking specifically about things like the God Window at Ironworks, Torment Creek or Suffacation Pit.
Even then, though, most experienced players have learned to deal with the window (Trapper) or just avoid that window for most of the match.
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Looping is not the only way to survive? Show me a match where the survivors escape without looping and only throwing pallets and trying to stealth. I'll wait XD
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