Let's talk about nerfing camping
It’s been discussed time and time again on these forums. Maybe the most discussed topic. But there’s a reason for that. And I am surprised there are still so many people that think it’s fine the way it is.
Let’s get this clear though. Camping is not a balance issue. In fact, it’s not very effective against high ranks, since they know how to counter camping. Yes I get that argument. No point in bringing it up. But that’s not the point. The point is, it’s simply a serious flaw in the game’s design. And I just don’t get why anyone wouldn’t want the game to become better designed, even if it only benefits one side. Nerfing camping would only nerf an awful strategy, it wouldn’t nerf skilled killers in any way. So it really shouldn’t be a problem.
Obviously, camping can’t be removed. It’s part of the core design of the game since it involves having to hook a survivor and have them bleed out until they die.
But it should be made way more ineffective than it is right now. It’s the best the devs could do. Simple as that. It is without a doubt for me one of the biggest sources of frustration for survivor players, and I think we can’t ignore it anymore, seeing how within at least the last half a year killer queue times have generally been longer than survivor queue times. Which probably means there are too many killers and not enough survivors.
What really worries me is that now, with the huge wave of new players that will probably try this game thanks to Stranger Things, many of the new survivor players might just end up quitting the game after a few days because of being camped to often. And you can’t blame them, being forced by the killer to not be able to play the game is just awful, and I wouldn’t want to play a game that has this happening often.
Now it can’t be removed, but it can be made way less effective than it is now. At lower ranks, it’s probably really good most of the time, because low rank survivors don’t know how to counter it, and we simply can’t ignore the low rank players. It’s less effective at high ranks, but slap on Hex: Ruin and NOED and you still got a chance to 4k, despite the low skill it requires to pull that off.
So, the devs can do something about it, or just ignore it. But at this point it feels like ignoring camping is also ignoring the longer killer queue times. And at least I don't want to ignore this. I am a killer main, and I don't want killer queue times to increase.
I know the argument is that they tried punishments for camping, and it didn’t work. But give me a break, I really doubt they tried everything possible to nerf camping. Bleedout speed should be decreased by 60% or so after the survivor has been hooked for 20 seconds if the killer is still within a 28 meter radius of the hooked survivor and on the same floor. At the very least have the killer’s aura shown to survivors when staying near the hook for a certain amount of time, but I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t be enough. If a survivor is within that radius, or even an increased radius of 32 meters, the penalty disappears, same goes for when the killer is in a chase or the exit gates are powered. So it can’t be abused like the camping punishment that was tried on the ptb already. Unless I’m missing something, then feel free to tell me how survivors could abuse it.
A different way to nerf camping is to give survivors a counter to it. Make sabotaging hooks reduce the Bleed out Speed of survivors that get hooked on those hooks by 50%. This way sabotaging hooks might be viable, and not just make killers slug instead of hooking survivors. The only thing I fear with this idea is that it won’t be used by inexperienced survivors enough to help them against camping killers.
People say killers should just be rewarded for not camping, and I don’t mind that. I’ve seen the suggestion that survivors that are unhooked suffer a generator repair speed penalty of 10 or 15 % for like 60 seconds, which I think is a great idea. But keeping camping as effective as it is now will still lead to many relying on camping, no matter how much you reward them for not camping. Why stop camping if it still can work as well as it does now? It would still need to be nerfed.
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I always say that if a killer is camping, do the gens. At most, the killer will get a 2k if everyone gen rushes a camping killer. In the end, the killer will get way less points by camping. I'm not sure they realize this, or maybe they don't care and are just looking for ruin someone's game experience. Others argue that it's a strategy and I agree, although it isn't the best strategy. When I play killer, I hook and immediately go after someone else. More points, more fun and less salt in the endgame chat, haha.
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Yes, exactly. But new players won't know how to counter camping. They'll just get camped or face a camping killer, think this game sucks, and leave. Not really favorible prospects for the game.
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You can’t nerf camping without forcing the player (Killer) to play a certain way. This action will drive away killers from the game.
To understand this you must understand the psychology of human behavior: It is human nature to hold onto something you think is yours i.e. the person on the hook. The main reason for camping is because the Killer feels they are losing a battle in which the only thing they own is the person on the hook. Therefore, asking the Killer to submit the hooked victim is like asking the Killer to give up something they feel belongs to them. It’s just not going to happen.
The reward must be substantial enough for the Killer to decide they will benefit more overall. Thus BBQ and Chili comes into play. The killer uses this as an opportunity to expand their overall gameplay output. However; this perk will only benefit the person on the hook if the killer feels like they might still have a chance to turn the tides.
The devs will not give greater rewards to a killer for not camping as this would cause imbalance in the rewards system. No reward is REASONABLY good enough to stop a killer from camping.
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I think that new survivors will also face new killers. I agree that it can ruin a game experience for people, but hopefully they give it a second chance and try again. New killers tend to be a little campy and tunnelly. It's a learning curve for them too. I think after a killer sees that he's getting little to no points, he will change his strategy up. But again, they may just like doing it to ruin peoples experiences. In that case, they deserve the little bit of points they get. It's a tough problem to address and many ideas have surfaced that would be great, but I think it will remain unchanged simply due to the fact that the killer is punished via points for the camp.
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It's complicated man. This isn't just "fixing" a universal game mechanic, no, many perks and killers such as Insidious, Leatherface, Ghostface and other things vouch and encourage the gameplay of camping. It would take an overhaul and it's not something that can be done overnight or over a month. Think about it like a topic and it's sub-topics.
You also can't "nerf" populous psychology in-game, you might be able to alter some or many peoples opinions, but it won't be a concrete and direct hit towards the issue. This will and will always be difficult to figure out and even then, don't expect it to go away completely.
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i Think the best way to solve that is creating a timer to not remove killer points when putting traps around the hooked survivor. Decreasing de dying speed when killer is in x meters from the hook outside a chase, and giving extra bloodpoints in outtomb chases. Increase the penalty when inside x meters of the hook without doing actions like putting traps and breaking pallets or chasing. Reducing points earned in chase close to hooks. Increase survivors bp for safe rescue with camping killers, and increase bp earning and repair speed if killer is camping.
As i said before every penalty not apllies if the killer is on a chase close to the hook or doing something useful, putting traps give 17 seconds pause to the penalties (sufficient time to put another trap down or walk outside the camping area), rearming the same trap does not pauses penalty.
it will work with everyone with hag exception, does not use terror radius to create the "camping area" create a hook radius idk
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Increase the bleedout time on hook?
You think killer that camp give a ######### about how long the survivor is going to spend on hook?
They don't camp to win they don't care about winning in the first place.
You can make the bleedout timer infinite they still would be camping, you can show their aura they will still camp
THEY DON'T CARE
Punishing them won't work, rewarding them won't work either and it can't be prevented
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I mean I don't really know if you can apply the human nature to something like this. Like killers believing the hooked survivor is theirs? That seems weird and a little unhealthy for just playing a game. The point is, it's not good game design. It would be the best for the game to nerf camping. I mean, as long as another survivor is within that radius, the penalty should be removed anyways. So killers would just have to play smart when they want to defend a hook. It seems like a healthy change to me.
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Here we go for the 5000000000th time.
Camping is a legit strat.
Camping defeats itself by being a BAD legit strat.
There used to be a punishment to camping: Survivors found out how to abuse it to screw over Killers.
Camping is part of the game.
Complaining about camping is like going to the Overwatch forums to complain about sniping. 'I think Snipers need to be nerfed. Sniping takes skill, but new players are going to get sniped nonstop & can't snipe back. So sniping will chase new players away.'
If you slow down the bleedout, guess what Survivors do?
They stay just far enough away to force the Killer to camp for 5 minutes & lose the game, or the Killer has to walk away & give up a free unhook. This is EXACTLY what happened with the old punishment; Survivors would stay just outside the Killer's TR, so the game thought 'he's camping for no reason!' & punished the Killer.
If you reveal the Killer's aura after <x> time, guess what?
Insidious is now useless. Remove the perk. Again; Survivors stay just far enough away to trigger the punishment, forcing the Killer to eat it or walk away.
People need to stop with the 'Nerf/Punish/Remove Camping' threads. They're either wrong on many levels, or want to remove it simply because they hate it and want everyone to conform to their rule book.
Punishments were tried. They were abused. Camping is how it is. Stop.
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That's why I want the change. The notice it won't do much, so they try and get better at the game. That's the point. Pretty sure camping is very effective at low ranks, since survivors don't know how to counter it. And then probably leave the game. Sure, I'd hope that they give the game more chances as well. But it's likely they won't, and I can totally understand that.
Having killers derank because of camping just makes this worse at low ranks. If I was interested in survivor and would just be starting the game, I could very well see me regretting buying the game after one or two days.
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How about we nerf survivors gen speed whenever the killer's heartbeat can be heard. That is what you are proposing.
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I believe they can have the game refunded within a certain amount of hours if they are dissatisfied. And that is their right. If they are not having fun, get that refund.
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The problem is it can be effective. Especially at low ranks. Or when using Hex: Ruin and NOED.So why would a low rank killer want to play any other way, since it takes very little skill to camp. Making it less effective will definitely make more killers try and not camp.
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Have you read my post? I know it's a legit strategy. I know it can be bad when played properly by the survivors. But it's bad design. The fact that it can be still as effective as it can be right now. Why ignore low ranked players? Don't you want the game to grow?
As I said, the radius could just be increased for radius. Or also have the penalty not apply whenever the killer is in a chase. Something I forgot to add and will add.
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But that's not the problem. I want the game to grow, not for people who play survivors refund the game. The killer lobby times can already be annoyingly long.
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Uhm, what the hell are you on about? That is pretty much just admitting that camping is the most effective strategy in the game. Lol. Killers can get kills without camping, in fact it's more effective that way. But it's just awful design because the survivor getting camped can't even play the game. Survivors doing gens is the only way to power the exit gates, plus the killer is still able to play the game exactly like in all cases.
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You're right, it would probably take longer. But making camping less effective will surely make more killers want to try and get better at the game and win without camping like crazy.
Also, Insidious just needs a complete rework. It's both awful designed and a very bad perk.
And Leatherface is one of those low tier killers anyways that need some buffs. Ghost Face though I don't really feel like he excels at camping. No more than any other killer, since he can get revealed by the hooked survivor.
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The radius does not matter.
Survivors will, just like last time, figure out where it ends and camp there. This will force Killers to either get punished or give up a free unhooking because the game is FORCING it on them.
Again; a punishment was tried. Survivors found that magic area where the Killer was punished for camping while the Survivor was nearby to unhook their friend. It, like I said, forced the Killer to either be punished or walk away for a free unhooking.
And if you force that kind of non-choice on new Killer players, and old ones, Killers WILL leave. And it will be more of them than your hypothetical Survivors. No one would want to play a game that slaps them in the face when the other team abuses the mechanic.
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@ad19970 Behavior seems uninterested in doing anything about camping. The last attempt they made was losing points in an emblem for remaining within a certain proximity of the hook unless in a chase in the area.
And since then, they've stated it's a viable strategy and don't feel it needs additional nudges.
I don't expect Stranger Things to retain a bunch of new players for long, anyway, and there are a host of other issues in the game in addition to camping. One is the Perk grind on top of bloodweb RNG. And their upcoming fix, two Perks after level 40, does nothing for new players. I've had a few people try DbD, and none stayed. Their primary reason wasn't camping or tunneling, but the grind. It's just too much before a new player can get the Perks for a decent build, especially when they'll rank up a lot faster than they'll get said Teachables unlocked.
Just look back at the various free weekends and sales over the past year. They get that new player spike, but within a few weeks of it ending, numbers are back to pretty much where they were before the weekend or sale.
Same thing will happen with Stranger Things. DbD is just too new player unfriendly.
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Ok..so..this will take some explaining as to the core issue here , camping while lame has its place , the egc for example..it would be rendered meaningless , and looking at the big picture let's face it..the devs are already viewed by the majority to favor the survivor side , and to be fair they've shown little evidence to refute this..killers grabs have been bugged for months..nothing..yet the bugs for dh were resolved very quickly, it feels that survivor priorities are favored..the devs constantly talk about whether something is fun for survivors..but never talk the same about the killer having fun..ds..got nerfed? Too weak..buffed it again, THEN nerfed enduring to remove all killer resistance to perk stuns , thano? A bad perk that's been begged for buffing for months..instead they made it worse..killer fun<survivor fun..now where am I going with this ? Well..now your suggesting that because as survivor we hate it killers should be punished for something that's not always the scummy play , and be told they arnt allowed yet survivors have no real rules to how they play..there are no penalties for any play style for survivor except farming team mates which only hurts other survivors...in fact scummy playstyles for survivors are very often rewarded , body blocking , sabo, hatch camping , etc..looks rather one sided doesnt it, I could list examples all day.. It would cause newer killers to feel undervalued and I very much think cause a mass killer exodus..why do you think high rank survivors are getting bottom rank killers ? Theres not enough high rankers... small things like this make a world of difference in this game
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But that doesn't make a difference. If a survivor camps just outside of the radius or is anywhere else outside of the radius, either a killer is just standing at the hook and camping or knows you are there, finds you and then you are in a chase. I mean there is not telltale for a killer if a survivors is near a hook or not, except maybe for Barbeque and Chili. Just camping outside of the radius isn't abusing the mechanic in any way.
I doubt that many killers will leave the game just because they can't camp anymore. Definitely not as much as survivors leaving the game because the game is no fun to them when they get camped. And I mean, the longer killer queue times are not hypothetical. Personally I wouldn't mind if they got shortened, by having more people play survivor again.
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i got an idea, if the killer stands at X meters from a hooked survivor with no survivors around for X seconds the killer is unable to perform any action whenever he is within X meters from the hooked survivor
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I mean that's why I said these penalties should not apply once the exit gates are ope. Of course the killer is forced to camp then.
Also, I feel like we are getting in a spot where people don't feel like survivors are favored. Pallet vaccuum removed, exhaustion nerf, healing nerf, pallet density nerf, Mettle of Man nerf, and so on. There have been many changes that favored killer. Survivors have gotten very little buffs in comparison. It definitely was needed, but saying the devs favor survivors just isn't true anymore. And then there are map reworks coming, which will just buff most killers in the game.
And all things you listed, are just ways for survivors to be able to gain an advantage and to win. It doesn't prevent you from playing as killer. Being camped pretty much means you can't play the game until the next match.
I think the posts that talk about long killer queue times speak for themselves. We need more survivor players, and getting rid of the probably most frustrating thing to deal with as survivor will most likely help.
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You're ignoring the most important part:
The Devs tried hook-camping punishments. Survivors abused the mechanic!
That's right; the same Survivors screaming for hook punishments showed they can't be trusted. They showed that they would abuse any mechanic put in to give themselves a free unhooking.
It was tried. It sucked. Accept hook camping as a bad, legit strat. Nothing else will work. It would either be unfair for Killers, OP for Survivors, or abused again.
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But that was because of the design. The Bleed Out times paused whenever a killer was within a certain radius of the hooked survivor. Survivors abused that by just hanging out at the hook the entire time, being chased by the killer, which meant the Bleed Out times didn't go down. By having only slow down the Bleed Out times, and making it so the penalty disappears as soon as the killer is in a chase or if a survivor is within that radius would make it unabusable by survivors.
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That's what baffles me, honestly. They all say they don't camp, and I would believe them, because they do seem to be part of the experienced community. But why would you be against a change that would improve the game's health and design? I mean they are allowed to have their opinion, I just feel this will really hurt the game in the future. With killers being granted buffs many times now, plus the upcoming map reworks which I really, really welcome, survivors however might get fed up that their number 1 issue continues to be ignored. We'll see, I think the map reworks that are coming are absolutely needed, especially to help the weaker killers. But without anything for survivors, I just fear killer queue times will inrease even more. Let's hope not though.
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Rofl. Sure, buddy. 'if you disagree with me, you must abuse the mechanic.'
It's not like we might be smart enough to realize, based on past experience and logic, that the idea is bad. Heaven forbid we disagree and have logic and history on our side. No, that would mean you're wrong. And you can't be wrong, so we must probably want to abuse the mechanic. 🙄
How about this?
Most people who want to change camping are just salty they got camped and want to remove whatever prevents them from winning.
Or this?
Most people who want a punishment for camping just want a mechanic they can abuse so they get free unhooks.
(Oh wait; this one ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Well don't that just beat all! It almost like I have logic on my side and..you're....wrong! 😧)
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Both are not true. People want camping to be nerfed because it is the exact opposite of fun to be camped. Are you really expecting survivors to just keep playing the game no matter how often they get camped? People play games to have fun, getting camped is the exact freaking opposite.
You are just bringing repeatedly bringing up that one time where a nerf to camping was tried, and it didn't work out. But it's not the only way to nerf camping. There are easily enough ways to try and nerf camping, not just that one way that was tested in the ptb. I even gave suggestions on how to prevent survivors being able to abuse the nerf to camping I suggested.
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It also didn’t involve the Chaser emblem penalty though, so it was a garbage and invalid test. I’m also going to take a stab and say you are someone who thinks survivors need another objective, which if that’s the case I say git gud since thats a camping buff. So if you support camping as a strat, don’t complain about gens, simple as that. Otherwise it’s hypocritical
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Yeah, they pretty much have the solution already implemented for the chaser emblem. It punishes you as long as you aren't in the chase or while any other survivor is within that certain radius. They just need to implement an actual gameplay punishment with those restrictions and the devs are fine. Boy I hope the devs will surprise us with one of their patches and have a proper nerf to camping that can't be abused, people will be able to see for themselves on the ptb then.
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The stats say ots caused by too few killers not survivors, and my survivor cues reaffirm this belief for me..plus you forget..survivors are about to receive the biggest buff they've ever recieved in the future..what do you think life will be like for killer when it happens? You know it..I know it..I will not simply believe unless I'm shown , after all..we may be about to see nurse kneecapped..we still dont know..
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What platform are you playing on? Because most posts regarding lobby queue times seem to be about killer queue times taking to long, and for me that is also the case. I can find a game with survivor always very fast, but as killer often it takes definitely longer to find a lobby.
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i got tired of clicking everyone's names.. as posted in another topic about camping, here is a breakdown of what you want nerfed. i also clicked a few people that were discussing the "counter strategy" to camping that new players might not know :)
Camping a survivor is a legitimate play style. If other survivors are not skilled enough to break the camp, it makes for a silly game.
the survivors try to "punish the killer" by "rushing the gens" to "avenge their fallen friend", everyone in the game is just asking for a depip over silliness. you can easily go over there and rescue the survivor if you came prepared and are as skilled as you'd like to think you are.
the killer is being lazy and wants you to come to them. they want nothing but free hooks and an easy game.. lucky for you, they're really bad (per your own words), so its fairly easy to break the camp. a lot of the times it requires trading places with the person on the hook, but you can easily get a friend off of the hook before they reach stage 2, allowing them to be healed and get some points while you "buy the group a minute (60 seconds)".. each time the 1 minute mark nears, it's someone else's turn..
it's easy practice and easy to learn and makes a really crappy game turn into one that's super fun, challenging, and rewarding. it also grows your skills as a player.
why again would anyone want this act to be "punished" or "removed" or considered invalid? must be because they're too scared or lazy to figure out how to get better than someone who depips while watching their friends die..
-EntitledBoner.
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This isn't possible if the killer has Ruin + NOED unless you are on comms. You will need to do 5 gens through Ruin and find 5 totems with basically 3 people. Chances are you will get 3 gens done before the first guy dies, a second will get caught now you have to do 2 gens and 5 totems with 2 people. If you do totems, gens don't get done he catches a third and then can play to close hatch or just slug them for a 4k. If you do gens, NOED procs and he will catch at least 1 more before the gates are opened, probably both of you if they slug.
If you throw Dying Light into the mix and the killer happens to catch the obsession first, then chances are everyone will die because if DL procs with Ruin you're not finishing any more gens.
That said you can't fix camping until you fix gen speeds. I'd be fine if camping wasn't a viable tactic but it would also mean that survivors couldn't just rush through gens too.
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Labor day weekend...It's almost wrong if I'm NOT camping.
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I'm on ps4..but regardless it only makes sense considering the circimstances..as a survivor I can barely get a killer on my level anymore..its always way too low..hence with putting two and two together I have concluded my cues are slow because its trying to keep you near your rank but..its not possible because not enough killers are high ranking meaning we are currently in a shortage..
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Nothing will be done about camping, ever. It was a horrible grief system left open in the game's design. It is PART of the toxic style of play that keeps this game from really hitting big and having huge player numbers. I've seen so many new players leave due to either camping/tunneling killers who are purposely deranked and torture new players, or groups of survivors who derank just to mess with new killers.
It is a toxic system that the developers don't have the balls to do anything about, and it will forever be an albatross on the neck of the game.
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what keeps the game where you think it is being kept is players refusing to understand that not knowing how to break a camp is the solution to camping, so get better, break camps, and have no more complaints about made up "horrible grief system"(s).. switch instead your complaints to your "horrible teammates" that are too busy complaining on forums in hopes of an alternate game to just stop and get better at the game.
i guess people are just miraculously blown away by how super awesome they are at reaching skill caps that are astronomical in such little amounts of time way too often.
here's your direct notification: you can still get much better at this game if you are worried about camping killers. see my message above if you need more info. you're welcome.
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Break camp is not always a simple solution. Hit the gens quick to open gates, and NOED gets you. If you are a group of solo survivors, you have no way of knowing if/who hit what totems. Look, the game has seriously flaws that are easily exploited by toxic players. It is what it is. You can't change it at this point.
P.S.: I don't care about camping. I rarely play survivor as it is. I'd rather be in the driver seat as killer.
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Even if the devs made it so that hooked survivors literally couldn't die if the killer was camping, some would still camp. Its a mentality.
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You can't fairly nerf camping at all UNLESS you get rid of the hooks.
No Hooks, No Camping.
Killers are forced to put Survivors into a ''time out'' and they can be saved from that. Now Killers will defend this time out zone if they have to or if they want to. The problem isn't camping though, the problem if you've been reading are the hooks.
Deathgarden, the original Deathgarden had the same thing but instead of hooks they had a bubble where Runners were held in and could be rescued. They scrapped idea because they learned from DBD's mistake, MISTAKE. Instead they solved this problem of camping by letting Scavengers RESPAWN.
Let Killers KILL SURVIVORS and let the Survivors be held for a certain time inside limbo and then spat back out by The Entity somewhere completely random. No hooks, no camping, problem solved by something completely simple, the only problem is a complete rework of Altruism and hook based perks.
Also :( R.I.P Basement <3 I will miss thou in the deepest trench of my cavernous heart.
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So your point is that survivors can't be bothered to learn how to counter campers. You stated yourself: It is not very effective at higher ranks.
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Pretty much sums it up. What a shame really. It hurts the game so much.
And nerfing camping isn't nerfing killers, it's just nerfing a strategy that is awful to play against.
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Sure make them have to learn how to counter camping. Like people would rather want to learn how to counter camping instead of just leaving the game. It's not like they want to play games just to have fun.
Like, I really want this game to grow. But new players who get camped a lot will just leave the game. If anything, after the new chapter, we are just left with more killer players. And I don't really enjoy a lobby simulator personally. And you can't blame people for leaving this game if they often play against a camping killer.
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I heard it was the other way around on the PS4. I don't think we should ignore killer queue times being longer on PC though. It's possible there are other reasons why people don't want to play killer on console. One thing that would come up is bad framerate and not being able to increase the aim sensitivity more. Those I'd say are seperate issues though.
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To be fair, yeah. The whole idea about having to hook survivors had a serious design flaw that the devs didn't think of at the beginning. I personally can't blame them for that though. I still think that nerfing camping could very much improve the game's health.
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I mean maybe you are right. It would be extreme though. I'd just hope it would cause less killer players to camp and more to try and get better at the game, when camping is doing very little for them. So survivors would have to deal with camping less often. It would be the best the devs could do for the game's health.
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I agree with you OP.
Me and a friend went against a facecamping LF the other day. Lucky for him, he downed my friend rather early and facecamped. Ruin was up at that time but nobody wanted to waste time looking for it while he was being facecamped so we tried doing gens. Finished around 3. He downs the next person and facecamps them too (she tried to kobe for some reason but still struggled). We finish the last gens, he actually left her but there was no way we could have saved her because of time. Turns out he had NOED too. Me and the other random died because of it. Because you can totally do all totems and gens with ruin up in that time. Fun game.
EDIT: We did go against the same killer a week after. We got lucky that we found Ruin earlier, this time i did a flashlight save and he went for someone else. Was obvious he'd facecamp that person. He got another kill with NOED though, yet again..
Sure, it might be manageable against these killers. But holy ######### it's so boring.
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Exactly. Ruin and NOED make camping so much more effective, it's not good. People will of course argue that that's Leatherface's biggest strength, but honestly that just means he needs buffs elsewhere, not that we keep such an unfun strategy to verse the way it is now.
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