TydeTyme's exhaustion video
Comments
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I feel I should post something here about the very apparent crutch argument that is happening here.
If a survivor uses DS as an example, they are using that perk because it is a powerful advantage with no consequence. They don't need to use it but they do because why the hell not.
If a killer uses BBQ, they are using that because they need to make as much out of the time they have as possible. Which I understand could be seen as crutch also.
The reason these two are different though is because of balance of the game: The crutch of DS is far more malicious than the crutch of BBQ.
Another important factor to look at is the ability to counter killer "crutch" perks vs survivor crutch perks.
NOED and BBQ both have counters whereas DS and SC do not, if they did, then the debate here would be different.
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I watched the gameplay and saw it was a nightmare decided not to ,went with dbd insteadMegaWaffle said:I'll make this simple for everyone. Stop fighting with one another, keep in mind we could have all made the mistake of playing F13 instead.
what a horrible thought
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@HeroLives said:
IronWolf115 said:@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:
@HeroLives said: IronWolf115 said:
@Paddy4583 said: RemoveSWF said:
Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use.
I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen. tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing. Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know
^ tell another lie. They are indeed very crutch. I would bet you my bank account that without Moris, bbq and chilli, insta down mechanics , and NOED that killers wouldn’t have a third or more of the kill rates they do now without them. The only person you are smoke screening is yourself. My friend if killers didn't have the things you just mentioned, killers wouldn't be played at all because they would be useless And there you go... the definition of a crutch.
If your not a SWF group then you feel the same way without your crutch perks too, now your arguing my whole point
I say this quote as a fundamental flaw in the game system, I admit I did not make that clear in this post. BBQ is not a crutch because it requires an activation, and then a follow up on you behalf. Allow me to put it into a small list.
Killer " crutches "
BBQ: Requires a survivor to be found, hooked and then requires you to leave the hook to follow up on the information you have been given
Mori: Requires a survivor to be hooked then unhhoked then downed again and finished. this also gives less points to the killer by the end of the match
Insta downs: Fundamental part of killer kits to add uniqueness.
Billy has very little control over where he moves during his sprint
Leatherface has to be up their ass for his chainsaw to do anything and is severely punished for bumping into a wall
Myers has limitations on how long he can insta down
NOED: Can be completely removed before it even triggers by destroying the totems on the map, thus it has a hard counter
Survivor crutches
Decisive strike: Allows you to escape from being hooked. The consequence is meant to be that it is one time use, but one time use is enough to make killers lose games, so effectively no consequence
Self care: Infinite healing, no consequence at all
Flashlight: Allows players to save other players from killers, I guess the consequence is timing but that is easy to figure out and maintain
Sprint Burst: Immediate escape from the vicinity of a killer with the consequence only being a 40 second cooldown.
I could go on but you get the jist. The reason people may CONSIDER BBQ to be a crutch is because of how many killers use it. This however is because of the weakness of the killer vs survivor. if the game was balanced then I would bet anything that you would see BBQ much less
I won’t argue that survivors don’t have crutches. I know they do. In the right survivors hands(higher ranks it’s apparently a nightmare) and in large numbers nightmare.
I solo que 98% of the time. I do better on my own. That’s just me personally though, I’m an exception not the rule.
Im just saying survivors and killers have crutches. That’s my only argument. Do with it what you will.
I have just put up another post to try and explain a bit more where I am coming from. i hope it helps
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@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:
@HeroLives said: IronWolf115 said:
@Paddy4583 said: RemoveSWF said:
Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use.
I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen. tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing. Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know
^ tell another lie. They are indeed very crutch. I would bet you my bank account that without Moris, bbq and chilli, insta down mechanics , and NOED that killers wouldn’t have a third or more of the kill rates they do now without them. The only person you are smoke screening is yourself. My friend if killers didn't have the things you just mentioned, killers wouldn't be played at all because they would be useless And there you go... the definition of a crutch.
If your not a SWF group then you feel the same way without your crutch perks too, now your arguing my whole point
I say this quote as a fundamental flaw in the game system, I admit I did not make that clear in this post. BBQ is not a crutch because it requires an activation, and then a follow up on you behalf. Allow me to put it into a small list.
Killer " crutches "
BBQ: Requires a survivor to be found, hooked and then requires you to leave the hook to follow up on the information you have been given
Mori: Requires a survivor to be hooked then unhhoked then downed again and finished. this also gives less points to the killer by the end of the match
Insta downs: Fundamental part of killer kits to add uniqueness.
Billy has very little control over where he moves during his sprint
Leatherface has to be up their ass for his chainsaw to do anything and is severely punished for bumping into a wall
Myers has limitations on how long he can insta down
NOED: Can be completely removed before it even triggers by destroying the totems on the map, thus it has a hard counter
Survivor crutches
Decisive strike: Allows you to escape from being hooked. The consequence is meant to be that it is one time use, but one time use is enough to make killers lose games, so effectively no consequence
Self care: Infinite healing, no consequence at all
Flashlight: Allows players to save other players from killers, I guess the consequence is timing but that is easy to figure out and maintain
Sprint Burst: Immediate escape from the vicinity of a killer with the consequence only being a 40 second cooldown.
I could go on but you get the jist. The reason people may CONSIDER BBQ to be a crutch is because of how many killers use it. This however is because of the weakness of the killer vs survivor. if the game was balanced then I would bet anything that you would see BBQ much less
Oh my god seriously:
you can apply any downside you want to these things using your argument.
Selfcare: you have to be found and hit before you can use it and requires an escape and to be out of sound radius.
DS: requires you to be downed and able to hit the skill check, once missed perk is gone and can’t be reused.
Concequence is subjective so isn’t a strong argument.
Buuuuuuut as I repeatedly try to explain the consequence is far, far, FAR lesser on survivor than killer
DS skillcheck is easy to hit
SC REMOVES the need for teamwork, eg. when you have been unhooked, you need no reliance on your team mates to heal you, you can just wander off yourself to do it0 -
Nurses calling is a counter to selfcare.IronWolf115 said:I feel I should post something here about the very apparent crutch argument that is happening here.
If a survivor uses DS as an example, they are using that perk because it is a powerful advantage with no consequence. They don't need to use it but they do because why the hell not.
If a killer uses BBQ, they are using that because they need to make as much out of the time they have as possible. Which I understand could be seen as crutch also.
The reason these two are different though is because of balance of the game: The crutch of DS is far more malicious than the crutch of BBQ.
Another important factor to look at is the ability to counter killer "crutch" perks vs survivor crutch perks.
NOED and BBQ both have counters whereas DS and SC do not, if they did, then the debate here would be different.
Killers can block a DS in a corner rendering it useless, no hook mori counters this too.
Im pretty sure we are going to have a redefinition of the word consequence and counter now0 -
And as I’ve repeatedly said consequence is not a defining factor of a crutchIronWolf115 said:@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:
@HeroLives said: IronWolf115 said:
@Paddy4583 said: RemoveSWF said:
Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use.
I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen. tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing. Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know
^ tell another lie. They are indeed very crutch. I would bet you my bank account that without Moris, bbq and chilli, insta down mechanics , and NOED that killers wouldn’t have a third or more of the kill rates they do now without them. The only person you are smoke screening is yourself. My friend if killers didn't have the things you just mentioned, killers wouldn't be played at all because they would be useless And there you go... the definition of a crutch.
If your not a SWF group then you feel the same way without your crutch perks too, now your arguing my whole point
I say this quote as a fundamental flaw in the game system, I admit I did not make that clear in this post. BBQ is not a crutch because it requires an activation, and then a follow up on you behalf. Allow me to put it into a small list.
Killer " crutches "
BBQ: Requires a survivor to be found, hooked and then requires you to leave the hook to follow up on the information you have been given
Mori: Requires a survivor to be hooked then unhhoked then downed again and finished. this also gives less points to the killer by the end of the match
Insta downs: Fundamental part of killer kits to add uniqueness.
Billy has very little control over where he moves during his sprint
Leatherface has to be up their ass for his chainsaw to do anything and is severely punished for bumping into a wall
Myers has limitations on how long he can insta down
NOED: Can be completely removed before it even triggers by destroying the totems on the map, thus it has a hard counter
Survivor crutches
Decisive strike: Allows you to escape from being hooked. The consequence is meant to be that it is one time use, but one time use is enough to make killers lose games, so effectively no consequence
Self care: Infinite healing, no consequence at all
Flashlight: Allows players to save other players from killers, I guess the consequence is timing but that is easy to figure out and maintain
Sprint Burst: Immediate escape from the vicinity of a killer with the consequence only being a 40 second cooldown.
I could go on but you get the jist. The reason people may CONSIDER BBQ to be a crutch is because of how many killers use it. This however is because of the weakness of the killer vs survivor. if the game was balanced then I would bet anything that you would see BBQ much less
Oh my god seriously:
you can apply any downside you want to these things using your argument.
Selfcare: you have to be found and hit before you can use it and requires an escape and to be out of sound radius.
DS: requires you to be downed and able to hit the skill check, once missed perk is gone and can’t be reused.
Concequence is subjective so isn’t a strong argument.
Buuuuuuut as I repeatedly try to explain the consequence is far, far, FAR lesser on survivor than killer
DS skillcheck is easy to hit
SC REMOVES the need for teamwork, eg. when you have been unhooked, you need no reliance on your team mates to heal you, you can just wander off yourself to do it0 -
@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:I feel I should post something here about the very apparent crutch argument that is happening here.
If a survivor uses DS as an example, they are using that perk because it is a powerful advantage with no consequence. They don't need to use it but they do because why the hell not.
If a killer uses BBQ, they are using that because they need to make as much out of the time they have as possible. Which I understand could be seen as crutch also.
The reason these two are different though is because of balance of the game: The crutch of DS is far more malicious than the crutch of BBQ.
Another important factor to look at is the ability to counter killer "crutch" perks vs survivor crutch perks.
NOED and BBQ both have counters whereas DS and SC do not, if they did, then the debate here would be different.
Nurses calling is a counter to selfcare.
Killers can block a DS in a corner rendering it useless, no hook mori counters this too.Im pretty sure we are going to have a redefinition of the word consequence and counter now
Nurses is only a counter if they heal within your terror radius, which would be stupid on their behalf
And there is absolutely no garuntee that you will get a survivor in a corner for the DS to pop0 -
I know where you’re coming from man. That’s why when I saw they were nerfing survivors and buffing killers I haven’t cried about it. I’m sure if it tilts the balance way too much they’ll adjust the gameplay so it’s more asymmetrical. ive had this game 2 months. Here is what I know as a factIronWolf115 said:@HeroLives said:
IronWolf115 said:@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:
@HeroLives said: IronWolf115 said:
@Paddy4583 said: RemoveSWF said:
Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use.
I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen. tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing. Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know
^ tell another lie. They are indeed very crutch. I would bet you my bank account that without Moris, bbq and chilli, insta down mechanics , and NOED that killers wouldn’t have a third or more of the kill rates they do now without them. The only person you are smoke screening is yourself. My friend if killers didn't have the things you just mentioned, killers wouldn't be played at all because they would be useless And there you go... the definition of a crutch.
If your not a SWF group then you feel the same way without your crutch perks too, now your arguing my whole point
I say this quote as a fundamental flaw in the game system, I admit I did not make that clear in this post. BBQ is not a crutch because it requires an activation, and then a follow up on you behalf. Allow me to put it into a small list.
Killer " crutches "
BBQ: Requires a survivor to be found, hooked and then requires you to leave the hook to follow up on the information you have been given
Mori: Requires a survivor to be hooked then unhhoked then downed again and finished. this also gives less points to the killer by the end of the match
Insta downs: Fundamental part of killer kits to add uniqueness.
Billy has very little control over where he moves during his sprint
Leatherface has to be up their ass for his chainsaw to do anything and is severely punished for bumping into a wall
Myers has limitations on how long he can insta down
NOED: Can be completely removed before it even triggers by destroying the totems on the map, thus it has a hard counter
Survivor crutches
Decisive strike: Allows you to escape from being hooked. The consequence is meant to be that it is one time use, but one time use is enough to make killers lose games, so effectively no consequence
Self care: Infinite healing, no consequence at all
Flashlight: Allows players to save other players from killers, I guess the consequence is timing but that is easy to figure out and maintain
Sprint Burst: Immediate escape from the vicinity of a killer with the consequence only being a 40 second cooldown.
I could go on but you get the jist. The reason people may CONSIDER BBQ to be a crutch is because of how many killers use it. This however is because of the weakness of the killer vs survivor. if the game was balanced then I would bet anything that you would see BBQ much less
I won’t argue that survivors don’t have crutches. I know they do. In the right survivors hands(higher ranks it’s apparently a nightmare) and in large numbers nightmare.
I solo que 98% of the time. I do better on my own. That’s just me personally though, I’m an exception not the rule.
Im just saying survivors and killers have crutches. That’s my only argument. Do with it what you will.
I have just put up another post to try and explain a bit more where I am coming from. i hope it helps
1. There have been plenty of times that crutch survivor perks saved my life and I made it longer in the game ,If not escaped.
2. There have been plenty of times where if killers didn’t have those things I mentioned I would have survived ,but died instead.
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I couldn't even sit through the video honestly. I got to 'the perks in question are pretty much Sprint Burst' so stopped watching. I don't know how you can play the game this long while still thinking that the other exhaustion perks are the same as Sprint Burst. None of them even come CLOSE to being as obnoxiously strong as Sprint Burst when I'm playing killer.
So yeah, agree with you OP. Nerf SB (please), and leave the others alone. Exhaustion is fine.
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@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:
@Paddy4583 said: IronWolf115 said:
@HeroLives said: IronWolf115 said:
@Paddy4583 said: RemoveSWF said:
Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use.
I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen. tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing. Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know
^ tell another lie. They are indeed very crutch. I would bet you my bank account that without Moris, bbq and chilli, insta down mechanics , and NOED that killers wouldn’t have a third or more of the kill rates they do now without them. The only person you are smoke screening is yourself. My friend if killers didn't have the things you just mentioned, killers wouldn't be played at all because they would be useless And there you go... the definition of a crutch.
If your not a SWF group then you feel the same way without your crutch perks too, now your arguing my whole point I say this quote as a fundamental flaw in the game system, I admit I did not make that clear in this post. BBQ is not a crutch because it requires an activation, and then a follow up on you behalf. Allow me to put it into a small list. Killer " crutches " BBQ: Requires a survivor to be found, hooked and then requires you to leave the hook to follow up on the information you have been given Mori: Requires a survivor to be hooked then unhhoked then downed again and finished. this also gives less points to the killer by the end of the match Insta downs: Fundamental part of killer kits to add uniqueness. Billy has very little control over where he moves during his sprint Leatherface has to be up their ass for his chainsaw to do anything and is severely punished for bumping into a wall Myers has limitations on how long he can insta down NOED: Can be completely removed before it even triggers by destroying the totems on the map, thus it has a hard counter Survivor crutches Decisive strike: Allows you to escape from being hooked. The consequence is meant to be that it is one time use, but one time use is enough to make killers lose games, so effectively no consequence Self care: Infinite healing, no consequence at all Flashlight: Allows players to save other players from killers, I guess the consequence is timing but that is easy to figure out and maintain Sprint Burst: Immediate escape from the vicinity of a killer with the consequence only being a 40 second cooldown. I could go on but you get the jist. The reason people may CONSIDER BBQ to be a crutch is because of how many killers use it. This however is because of the weakness of the killer vs survivor. if the game was balanced then I would bet anything that you would see BBQ much less Oh my god seriously: you can apply any downside you want to these things using your argument. Selfcare: you have to be found and hit before you can use it and requires an escape and to be out of sound radius. DS: requires you to be downed and able to hit the skill check, once missed perk is gone and can’t be reused.
Concequence is subjective so isn’t a strong argument.
Buuuuuuut as I repeatedly try to explain the consequence is far, far, FAR lesser on survivor than killer
DS skillcheck is easy to hit
SC REMOVES the need for teamwork, eg. when you have been unhooked, you need no reliance on your team mates to heal you, you can just wander off yourself to do it
And as I’ve repeatedly said consequence is not a defining factor of a crutch
Well it is. Because tell me, if you used decisive strike, but after you used it the next time you were hooked you were dead immediately. Lets say this was implemented, would you still use DS? I doubt it because the CONSEQUENCE would be extremely high. You would have gone from being able to be hooked twice before the third kills you, to being hooked once immediately killing you
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NOED can only be countered if all the survivors cleanse which There is no guarantee will be done, BBQ you have to be right place right time to counter.IronWolf115 said:@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:I feel I should post something here about the very apparent crutch argument that is happening here.
If a survivor uses DS as an example, they are using that perk because it is a powerful advantage with no consequence. They don't need to use it but they do because why the hell not.
If a killer uses BBQ, they are using that because they need to make as much out of the time they have as possible. Which I understand could be seen as crutch also.
The reason these two are different though is because of balance of the game: The crutch of DS is far more malicious than the crutch of BBQ.
Another important factor to look at is the ability to counter killer "crutch" perks vs survivor crutch perks.
NOED and BBQ both have counters whereas DS and SC do not, if they did, then the debate here would be different.
Nurses calling is a counter to selfcare.
Killers can block a DS in a corner rendering it useless, no hook mori counters this too.Im pretty sure we are going to have a redefinition of the word consequence and counter now
Nurses is only a counter if they heal within your terror radius, which would be stupid on their behalf
And there is absolutely no garuntee that you will get a survivor in a corner for the DS to pop
like ive said subjective arguments can’t be won, and your definition doesn’t stand as we can subjectively apply it to anything we want.0 -
@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:
I feel I should post something here about the very apparent crutch argument that is happening here. If a survivor uses DS as an example, they are using that perk because it is a powerful advantage with no consequence. They don't need to use it but they do because why the hell not. If a killer uses BBQ, they are using that because they need to make as much out of the time they have as possible. Which I understand could be seen as crutch also. The reason these two are different though is because of balance of the game: The crutch of DS is far more malicious than the crutch of BBQ. Another important factor to look at is the ability to counter killer "crutch" perks vs survivor crutch perks. NOED and BBQ both have counters whereas DS and SC do not, if they did, then the debate here would be different. Nurses calling is a counter to selfcare.
Killers can block a DS in a corner rendering it useless, no hook mori counters this too.
Im pretty sure we are going to have a redefinition of the word consequence and counter now
Nurses is only a counter if they heal within your terror radius, which would be stupid on their behalf
And there is absolutely no garuntee that you will get a survivor in a corner for the DS to pop
NOED can only be countered if all the survivors cleanse which There is no guarantee will be done, BBQ you have to be right place right time to counter.
like ive said subjective arguments can’t be won, and your definition doesn’t stand as we can subjectively apply it to anything we want.
Well you have more than enough opportunity to cleanse all the totems, and I have seen it happen many times. And if someone gets downed, then you should just assume BBQ and you could get to a location where it would not affect you, such as behind a generator
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@HeroLives said:
IronWolf115 said:@HeroLives said:
IronWolf115 said:
@Paddy4583 said: IronWolf115 said:
@HeroLives said: IronWolf115 said:
@Paddy4583 said: RemoveSWF said:
Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use.
I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen. tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing. Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know
^ tell another lie. They are indeed very crutch. I would bet you my bank account that without Moris, bbq and chilli, insta down mechanics , and NOED that killers wouldn’t have a third or more of the kill rates they do now without them. The only person you are smoke screening is yourself. My friend if killers didn't have the things you just mentioned, killers wouldn't be played at all because they would be useless And there you go... the definition of a crutch.
If your not a SWF group then you feel the same way without your crutch perks too, now your arguing my whole point I say this quote as a fundamental flaw in the game system, I admit I did not make that clear in this post. BBQ is not a crutch because it requires an activation, and then a follow up on you behalf. Allow me to put it into a small list. Killer " crutches " BBQ: Requires a survivor to be found, hooked and then requires you to leave the hook to follow up on the information you have been given Mori: Requires a survivor to be hooked then unhhoked then downed again and finished. this also gives less points to the killer by the end of the match Insta downs: Fundamental part of killer kits to add uniqueness. Billy has very little control over where he moves during his sprint Leatherface has to be up their ass for his chainsaw to do anything and is severely punished for bumping into a wall Myers has limitations on how long he can insta down NOED: Can be completely removed before it even triggers by destroying the totems on the map, thus it has a hard counter Survivor crutches Decisive strike: Allows you to escape from being hooked. The consequence is meant to be that it is one time use, but one time use is enough to make killers lose games, so effectively no consequence Self care: Infinite healing, no consequence at all Flashlight: Allows players to save other players from killers, I guess the consequence is timing but that is easy to figure out and maintain Sprint Burst: Immediate escape from the vicinity of a killer with the consequence only being a 40 second cooldown. I could go on but you get the jist. The reason people may CONSIDER BBQ to be a crutch is because of how many killers use it. This however is because of the weakness of the killer vs survivor. if the game was balanced then I would bet anything that you would see BBQ much less I won’t argue that survivors don’t have crutches. I know they do. In the right survivors hands(higher ranks it’s apparently a nightmare) and in large numbers nightmare. I solo que 98% of the time. I do better on my own. That’s just me personally though, I’m an exception not the rule.
Im just saying survivors and killers have crutches. That’s my only argument. Do with it what you will.
I have just put up another post to try and explain a bit more where I am coming from. i hope it helps
I know where you’re coming from man. That’s why when I saw they were nerfing survivors and buffing killers I haven’t cried about it. I’m sure if it tilts the balance way too much they’ll adjust the gameplay so it’s more asymmetrical. ive had this game 2 months. Here is what I know as a fact
- There have been plenty of times that crutch survivor perks saved my life and I made it longer in the game ,If not escaped.
- There have been plenty of times where if killers didn’t have those things I mentioned I would have survived ,but died instead.
yeah all I want is a discussion rather than argument. I feel it benefits everyone better. Thank you for being reasonable!
0 -
i would say those who use it would still use it just as much yes, because the majority will save it till last hook anyway, as they do now.IronWolf115 said:@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:
@Paddy4583 said: IronWolf115 said:
@HeroLives said: IronWolf115 said:
@Paddy4583 said: RemoveSWF said:
Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use.
I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen. tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing. Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know
^ tell another lie. They are indeed very crutch. I would bet you my bank account that without Moris, bbq and chilli, insta down mechanics , and NOED that killers wouldn’t have a third or more of the kill rates they do now without them. The only person you are smoke screening is yourself. My friend if killers didn't have the things you just mentioned, killers wouldn't be played at all because they would be useless And there you go... the definition of a crutch.
If your not a SWF group then you feel the same way without your crutch perks too, now your arguing my whole point I say this quote as a fundamental flaw in the game system, I admit I did not make that clear in this post. BBQ is not a crutch because it requires an activation, and then a follow up on you behalf. Allow me to put it into a small list. Killer " crutches " BBQ: Requires a survivor to be found, hooked and then requires you to leave the hook to follow up on the information you have been given Mori: Requires a survivor to be hooked then unhhoked then downed again and finished. this also gives less points to the killer by the end of the match Insta downs: Fundamental part of killer kits to add uniqueness. Billy has very little control over where he moves during his sprint Leatherface has to be up their ass for his chainsaw to do anything and is severely punished for bumping into a wall Myers has limitations on how long he can insta down NOED: Can be completely removed before it even triggers by destroying the totems on the map, thus it has a hard counter Survivor crutches Decisive strike: Allows you to escape from being hooked. The consequence is meant to be that it is one time use, but one time use is enough to make killers lose games, so effectively no consequence Self care: Infinite healing, no consequence at all Flashlight: Allows players to save other players from killers, I guess the consequence is timing but that is easy to figure out and maintain Sprint Burst: Immediate escape from the vicinity of a killer with the consequence only being a 40 second cooldown. I could go on but you get the jist. The reason people may CONSIDER BBQ to be a crutch is because of how many killers use it. This however is because of the weakness of the killer vs survivor. if the game was balanced then I would bet anything that you would see BBQ much less Oh my god seriously: you can apply any downside you want to these things using your argument. Selfcare: you have to be found and hit before you can use it and requires an escape and to be out of sound radius. DS: requires you to be downed and able to hit the skill check, once missed perk is gone and can’t be reused.
Concequence is subjective so isn’t a strong argument.
Buuuuuuut as I repeatedly try to explain the consequence is far, far, FAR lesser on survivor than killer
DS skillcheck is easy to hit
SC REMOVES the need for teamwork, eg. when you have been unhooked, you need no reliance on your team mates to heal you, you can just wander off yourself to do it
And as I’ve repeatedly said consequence is not a defining factor of a crutch
Well it is. Because tell me, if you used decisive strike, but after you used it the next time you were hooked you were dead immediately. Lets say this was implemented, would you still use DS? I doubt it because the CONSEQUENCE would be extremely high. You would have gone from being able to be hooked twice before the third kills you, to being hooked once immediately killing you
this is pointless, you’ve gone from one thing to the next moving the focus.
Fact is is they are killer crutches and no amount of redefining and staying the consequence levels are
worse will change this. The consequence may well be less and it could be easier to
counter, but it’s still a crutch0 -
The nerf of sb is desperately needed.
It's a good thing, but it's not enough for sb.2 -
@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:
@Paddy4583 said: IronWolf115 said:
@Paddy4583 said: IronWolf115 said:
@HeroLives said: IronWolf115 said:
@Paddy4583 said: RemoveSWF said:
Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use.
I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen. tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing. Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know
^ tell another lie. They are indeed very crutch. I would bet you my bank account that without Moris, bbq and chilli, insta down mechanics , and NOED that killers wouldn’t have a third or more of the kill rates they do now without them. The only person you are smoke screening is yourself. My friend if killers didn't have the things you just mentioned, killers wouldn't be played at all because they would be useless And there you go... the definition of a crutch.
If your not a SWF group then you feel the same way without your crutch perks too, now your arguing my whole point I say this quote as a fundamental flaw in the game system, I admit I did not make that clear in this post. BBQ is not a crutch because it requires an activation, and then a follow up on you behalf. Allow me to put it into a small list. Killer " crutches " BBQ: Requires a survivor to be found, hooked and then requires you to leave the hook to follow up on the information you have been given Mori: Requires a survivor to be hooked then unhhoked then downed again and finished. this also gives less points to the killer by the end of the match Insta downs: Fundamental part of killer kits to add uniqueness. Billy has very little control over where he moves during his sprint Leatherface has to be up their ass for his chainsaw to do anything and is severely punished for bumping into a wall Myers has limitations on how long he can insta down NOED: Can be completely removed before it even triggers by destroying the totems on the map, thus it has a hard counter Survivor crutches Decisive strike: Allows you to escape from being hooked. The consequence is meant to be that it is one time use, but one time use is enough to make killers lose games, so effectively no consequence Self care: Infinite healing, no consequence at all Flashlight: Allows players to save other players from killers, I guess the consequence is timing but that is easy to figure out and maintain Sprint Burst: Immediate escape from the vicinity of a killer with the consequence only being a 40 second cooldown. I could go on but you get the jist. The reason people may CONSIDER BBQ to be a crutch is because of how many killers use it. This however is because of the weakness of the killer vs survivor. if the game was balanced then I would bet anything that you would see BBQ much less Oh my god seriously: you can apply any downside you want to these things using your argument. Selfcare: you have to be found and hit before you can use it and requires an escape and to be out of sound radius. DS: requires you to be downed and able to hit the skill check, once missed perk is gone and can’t be reused.
Concequence is subjective so isn’t a strong argument. Buuuuuuut as I repeatedly try to explain the consequence is far, far, FAR lesser on survivor than killer DS skillcheck is easy to hit SC REMOVES the need for teamwork, eg. when you have been unhooked, you need no reliance on your team mates to heal you, you can just wander off yourself to do it
And as I’ve repeatedly said consequence is not a defining factor of a crutch
Well it is. Because tell me, if you used decisive strike, but after you used it the next time you were hooked you were dead immediately. Lets say this was implemented, would you still use DS? I doubt it because the CONSEQUENCE would be extremely high. You would have gone from being able to be hooked twice before the third kills you, to being hooked once immediately killing you
i would say those who use it would still use it just as much yes, because the majority will save it till last hook anyway, as they do now.
Ok then, seeing your point, it would still be a big nerf to DS because you would at least get hooks off on the survivor.
Can we agree?0 -
I agree, in the senirio your putting forward that any survivor using DS is never to be caught again the entire match, however it’s hardly a nerf to DS, I don’t know many player who would use it at the first chance unless they expected not to be saved in which case the result is the same.
but like I said it’s all subjective. Though a crutch is still a crutch no matter what downside or consequence you belive it to have over and against other crutches.0 -
@Paddy4583 said:
I agree, in the senirio your putting forward that any survivor using DS is never to be caught again the entire match, however it’s hardly a nerf to DS, I don’t know many player who would use it at the first chance unless they expected not to be saved in which case the result is the sameThe nerf that I put forward is irrelevant, the point was to show the fact that after it gets nerfed, the consequence of using it would be much higher thus lowering its status as a crutch perk. The point behind this is to show that things like BBQ already have such consequences and so the validity of an argument that BBQ is a crutch perk and that killers cannot live without it is ludicrous. Killers use BBQ with the intent of being rewarded for not camping. Survivors use DS for the reward of.....dying?
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@IronWolf115 said:
NOED and BBQ both have counters whereas DS and SC do not, if they did, then the debate here would be different.I'm not going derail your thread here but I want to make these points.
First DS and SC can be countered. DS can be countered by Enduring or Unnerving directly. Doc's power can also count it. Remember Me doesn't exactly counter the use of DS, but it does flip the formula and reward the killer greatly for tunneling the obsession, even letting them DS to get another token on the first hook. SC can be countered by mangled stuff, Coulrophobia now, Nurse's Calling, Thanatophobia. Are these perfect counters? No, but they are counters none the less.
My point here is that just because something can be countered doesn't absolve it of being a crutch. I don't think BBQ or Ruin are killer crutches, but NOED definitely is a crutch and here's why... it is purely a comeback mechanic that rewards failure. That's literally all it is there for. It's there to help the killer make up for poor performance near the end of the game. And where it really differs from other perks like BBQ is that it does not require the killer to do anything to gain the benefits from it. BBQ at the very least requires you to catch and hook someone to gain the benefits. Remember Me requires you to find and hit the obsession enough. Nurse's requires you to find and hit someone first. There are conditions which must be met on the killer's end to gain those benefits. NOED has none of that. It just... happens.... because you failed. Even if you look at all other insta-downs, there is some catch, something the killer must do to gain that insta-down. Devour, hook 3 people and ALLOW the saves. MYC, hook someone then allow a save. Myers EW3, gain enough EW. Chainsaws and insta-hatchets, actually hit someone with a more difficult to aim attack. Yadda yadda.
I'd be all for making NOED more powerful if it was changed in such a way that the killer was required to do something to gain the benefits. Maybe they have to get 1 hook on everyone before the gates power. Maybe they need to kill someone before the gates power. Maybe they need to make survivors bleed collectively for 2 minutes over the course of the game. I'm just throwing out random ideas here, my point is that NOED is totally a crutch perk simply because of the conditions under which it activates.
PS. Regarding Ruin specifically. While it does not necessarily require anything from the killer, it's not a crutch like NOED because it's not rewarding failure. It's like Thanatophobia or Coulrophobia or Unnerving in that it's like a killer's slowing effect on the game. It's not there to provide a comeback or reward you for failing. It's there almost as something the survivors must work against as they play. It doesn't change the killer-survivor dynamic, it changes the survivor-game dynamic in the killer's favor.
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@thesuicidefox said:
@IronWolf115 said:
NOED and BBQ both have counters whereas DS and SC do not, if they did, then the debate here would be different.I'm not going derail your thread here but I want to make these points.
First DS and SC can be countered. DS can be countered by Enduring or Unnerving directly. Doc's power can also count it. Remember Me doesn't exactly counter the use of DS, but it does flip the formula and reward the killer greatly for tunneling the obsession, even letting them DS to get another token on the first hook. SC can be countered by mangled stuff, Coulrophobia now, Nurse's Calling, Thanatophobia. Are these perfect counters? No, but they are counters none the less.
My point here is that just because something can be countered doesn't absolve it of being a crutch. I don't think BBQ or Ruin are killer crutches, but NOED definitely is a crutch and here's why... it is purely a comeback mechanic that rewards failure. That's literally all it is there for. It's there to help the killer make up for poor performance near the end of the game. And where it really differs from other perks like BBQ is that it does not require the killer to do anything to gain the benefits from it. BBQ at the very least requires you to catch and hook someone to gain the benefits. Remember Me requires you to find and hit the obsession enough. Nurse's requires you to find and hit someone first. There are conditions which must be met on the killer's end to gain those benefits. NOED has none of that. It just... happens.... because you failed. Even if you look at all other insta-downs, there is some catch, something the killer must do to gain that insta-down. Devour, hook 3 people and ALLOW the saves. MYC, hook someone then allow a save. Myers EW3, gain enough EW. Chainsaws and insta-hatchets, actually hit someone with a more difficult to aim attack. Yadda yadda.
I'd be all for making NOED more powerful if it was changed in such a way that the killer was required to do something to gain the benefits. Maybe they have to get 1 hook on everyone before the gates power. Maybe they need to kill someone before the gates power. Maybe they need to make survivors bleed collectively for 2 minutes over the course of the game. I'm just throwing out random ideas here, my point is that NOED is totally a crutch perk simply because of the conditions under which it activates.
I certainly have my issues with NOED, but my point is that NOED can be completely negated if you want it to be. Compare that to DS which the things you mention are not hard counters, they are more soften the blow sort of things. When DS gets nerfed I actually am in favor of a NOED re-work, but ONLY after DS has been addressed.
But we do agree on everything else.
2 -
I’ve already said that the consequence won’t stop it being used as a crutch because it’s not because of consequence or lack there of that makes it a crutch.IronWolf115 said:@Paddy4583 said:
I agree, in the senirio your putting forward that any survivor using DS is never to be caught again the entire match, however it’s hardly a nerf to DS, I don’t know many player who would use it at the first chance unless they expected not to be saved in which case the result is the sameThe nerf that I put forward is irrelevant, the point was to show the fact that after it gets nerfed, the consequence of using it would be much higher thus lowering its status as a crutch perk. The point behind this is to show that things like BBQ already have such consequences and so the validity of an argument that BBQ is a crutch perk and that killers cannot live without it is ludicrous. Killers use BBQ with the intent of being rewarded for not camping. Survivors use DS for the reward of.....dying?
do you honestly believe that with the nerfs coming, that self care and sprit burst won’t still be used just as much?
I don’t because they aren’t crutches because of the the definition your using.
BBQ doesn’t have a consequence in the same way your defining the consequence for DS, what your referring to is circumstantial, not consequential.
Your suggesting a detriment to an advantage which negates the advantage, BBQ doesn’t have this, insta downs don’t have this. It’s not a comparison0 -
I try to look at things from all perspectives. Thank you for being reasonable as well. It’s a game for both sides . It should be enjoyable, and if exhaustion perks, and bnp are what people think is throwing off the game survivor sided then I’ll give it a try. What I don’t want though is a game where killers think they need to have a 3k-4K every single match , or survivors thinking they need 3-4 escapes a team every match. It shouldn’t be too easy for either side.IronWolf115 said:@HeroLives said:
IronWolf115 said:@HeroLives said:
IronWolf115 said:
@Paddy4583 said: IronWolf115 said:
@HeroLives said: IronWolf115 said:
@Paddy4583 said: RemoveSWF said:
Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use.
I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen. tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing. Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know
^ tell another lie. They are indeed very crutch. I would bet you my bank account that without Moris, bbq and chilli, insta down mechanics , and NOED that killers wouldn’t have a third or more of the kill rates they do now without them. The only person you are smoke screening is yourself. My friend if killers didn't have the things you just mentioned, killers wouldn't be played at all because they would be useless And there you go... the definition of a crutch.
If your not a SWF group then you feel the same way without your crutch perks too, now your arguing my whole point I say this quote as a fundamental flaw in the game system, I admit I did not make that clear in this post. BBQ is not a crutch because it requires an activation, and then a follow up on you behalf. Allow me to put it into a small list. Killer " crutches " BBQ: Requires a survivor to be found, hooked and then requires you to leave the hook to follow up on the information you have been given Mori: Requires a survivor to be hooked then unhhoked then downed again and finished. this also gives less points to the killer by the end of the match Insta downs: Fundamental part of killer kits to add uniqueness. Billy has very little control over where he moves during his sprint Leatherface has to be up their ass for his chainsaw to do anything and is severely punished for bumping into a wall Myers has limitations on how long he can insta down NOED: Can be completely removed before it even triggers by destroying the totems on the map, thus it has a hard counter Survivor crutches Decisive strike: Allows you to escape from being hooked. The consequence is meant to be that it is one time use, but one time use is enough to make killers lose games, so effectively no consequence Self care: Infinite healing, no consequence at all Flashlight: Allows players to save other players from killers, I guess the consequence is timing but that is easy to figure out and maintain Sprint Burst: Immediate escape from the vicinity of a killer with the consequence only being a 40 second cooldown. I could go on but you get the jist. The reason people may CONSIDER BBQ to be a crutch is because of how many killers use it. This however is because of the weakness of the killer vs survivor. if the game was balanced then I would bet anything that you would see BBQ much less I won’t argue that survivors don’t have crutches. I know they do. In the right survivors hands(higher ranks it’s apparently a nightmare) and in large numbers nightmare. I solo que 98% of the time. I do better on my own. That’s just me personally though, I’m an exception not the rule.
Im just saying survivors and killers have crutches. That’s my only argument. Do with it what you will.
I have just put up another post to try and explain a bit more where I am coming from. i hope it helps
I know where you’re coming from man. That’s why when I saw they were nerfing survivors and buffing killers I haven’t cried about it. I’m sure if it tilts the balance way too much they’ll adjust the gameplay so it’s more asymmetrical. ive had this game 2 months. Here is what I know as a fact
- There have been plenty of times that crutch survivor perks saved my life and I made it longer in the game ,If not escaped.
- There have been plenty of times where if killers didn’t have those things I mentioned I would have survived ,but died instead.
yeah all I want is a discussion rather than argument. I feel it benefits everyone better. Thank you for being reasonable!
i think survivors are mostly just annoyed that a good one third or half of them are being forced into a stealth game play being slaves to a generator, while being alert all the time, having to make skill checks, try to counter powers, and being immersed all at the same time. Oh and don’t forget we have to be on totem watch, and do saves so we have a chance of making it out.
i think instead of making it where they nerfed the bnp like they did they should change it
to where no more than 2 toolboxes , 2 Medkits, or 2 flashlights can be in lobby or in game. That alone I feel like would do wonders. If 2 of that item are in lobby then they don’t spawn in chests. Bc swf really takes adavantage of this.
Thought I’d bring it up even though it’s slightly off topic.
1 -
@IronWolf115 said:
@thesuicidefox said:
@IronWolf115 said:
NOED and BBQ both have counters whereas DS and SC do not, if they did, then the debate here would be different.I'm not going derail your thread here but I want to make these points.
First DS and SC can be countered. DS can be countered by Enduring or Unnerving directly. Doc's power can also count it. Remember Me doesn't exactly counter the use of DS, but it does flip the formula and reward the killer greatly for tunneling the obsession, even letting them DS to get another token on the first hook. SC can be countered by mangled stuff, Coulrophobia now, Nurse's Calling, Thanatophobia. Are these perfect counters? No, but they are counters none the less.
My point here is that just because something can be countered doesn't absolve it of being a crutch. I don't think BBQ or Ruin are killer crutches, but NOED definitely is a crutch and here's why... it is purely a comeback mechanic that rewards failure. That's literally all it is there for. It's there to help the killer make up for poor performance near the end of the game. And where it really differs from other perks like BBQ is that it does not require the killer to do anything to gain the benefits from it. BBQ at the very least requires you to catch and hook someone to gain the benefits. Remember Me requires you to find and hit the obsession enough. Nurse's requires you to find and hit someone first. There are conditions which must be met on the killer's end to gain those benefits. NOED has none of that. It just... happens.... because you failed. Even if you look at all other insta-downs, there is some catch, something the killer must do to gain that insta-down. Devour, hook 3 people and ALLOW the saves. MYC, hook someone then allow a save. Myers EW3, gain enough EW. Chainsaws and insta-hatchets, actually hit someone with a more difficult to aim attack. Yadda yadda.
I'd be all for making NOED more powerful if it was changed in such a way that the killer was required to do something to gain the benefits. Maybe they have to get 1 hook on everyone before the gates power. Maybe they need to kill someone before the gates power. Maybe they need to make survivors bleed collectively for 2 minutes over the course of the game. I'm just throwing out random ideas here, my point is that NOED is totally a crutch perk simply because of the conditions under which it activates.
I certainly have my issues with NOED, but my point is that NOED can be completely negated if you want it to be. Compare that to DS which the things you mention are not hard counters, they are more soften the blow sort of things. When DS gets nerfed I actually am in favor of a NOED re-work, but ONLY after DS has been addressed.
But we do agree on everything else.
"My point is that NOED can be completely negated if you want it to be"... as long as you are in a group. If you are playing solo this really isn't an option. You can't control the rate at which other survivors do gens, and you have no way to confirm the number of totems destroyed. I run Small Game a lot lately purely to find Ruin and NOED. I will destroy every totem I can find, but I still end up in games where the gens get done before I can do it. I'll even ignore doing gens myself (doing my 1 gen near the start for my emblem) and focus on totems only to have every gen done before I get them all. A lot of times that comes down to being chased. If I can totally avoid the killer and not get into a chase I might be able to get all the totems before the endgame. But if I get chased, gens get done fast, and even if I can find all 5 totems I can't exactly do them if I'm running from the killer. And if other survivors start going down a lot, well now I'm forced to do gens to make up for them not doing gens, which means less time I can find totems. If you play in a group, yes, you can easily pop all the totems before endgame and completely avoid NOED. Solo, not so much, to a point where NOED procs and killers that might not have gotten kills suddenly got 2 people and got 2 free kills (because no one will come save them unless NOED drops).
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@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:@Paddy4583 said:
I agree, in the senirio your putting forward that any survivor using DS is never to be caught again the entire match, however it’s hardly a nerf to DS, I don’t know many player who would use it at the first chance unless they expected not to be saved in which case the result is the same
The nerf that I put forward is irrelevant, the point was to show the fact that after it gets nerfed, the consequence of using it would be much higher thus lowering its status as a crutch perk. The point behind this is to show that things like BBQ already have such consequences and so the validity of an argument that BBQ is a crutch perk and that killers cannot live without it is ludicrous. Killers use BBQ with the intent of being rewarded for not camping. Survivors use DS for the reward of.....dying?
I’ve already said that the consequence won’t stop it being used as a crutch because it’s not because of consequence or lack there of that makes it a crutch.
do you honestly believe that with the nerfs coming, that self care and sprit burst won’t still be used just as much?
I don’t because they aren’t crutches because of the the definition your using.
BBQ doesn’t have a consequence in the same way your defining the consequence for DS, what your referring to is circumstantial, not consequential.
Your suggesting a detriment to an advantage which negates the advantage, BBQ doesn’t have this, insta downs don’t have this. It’s not a comparison
I do believe that SC and SB will be still used and here is why:
The self care nerf they have proposed is not enough, and back to the original point of this discussion, they are nerfing ALL the exhaustion perks which negates the nerf to SB because it will still be the best exhaustion perk to use
And you are correct that BBQ is circumstantial rather than consequential, however this is where my point is coming from, the circumstance for BBQ is in a good place, and the consequence for using BBQ is also in a good place ( Ability to trick the killer through your aura if you are clever )
DS is circumstantial in the fact that you have to be downed, true, but after that what is the consequence like with BBQ? There is none. You zoom away and will probably have the killer on the run for another 3 minutes.And the detriment to insta downs is that they are predictable and easily dodged. If you try to use an insta down attack too much you are actually going to hurt yourself rather than help.
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@thesuicidefox said:
@IronWolf115 said:
@thesuicidefox said:
@IronWolf115 said:
NOED and BBQ both have counters whereas DS and SC do not, if they did, then the debate here would be different.I'm not going derail your thread here but I want to make these points.
First DS and SC can be countered. DS can be countered by Enduring or Unnerving directly. Doc's power can also count it. Remember Me doesn't exactly counter the use of DS, but it does flip the formula and reward the killer greatly for tunneling the obsession, even letting them DS to get another token on the first hook. SC can be countered by mangled stuff, Coulrophobia now, Nurse's Calling, Thanatophobia. Are these perfect counters? No, but they are counters none the less.
My point here is that just because something can be countered doesn't absolve it of being a crutch. I don't think BBQ or Ruin are killer crutches, but NOED definitely is a crutch and here's why... it is purely a comeback mechanic that rewards failure. That's literally all it is there for. It's there to help the killer make up for poor performance near the end of the game. And where it really differs from other perks like BBQ is that it does not require the killer to do anything to gain the benefits from it. BBQ at the very least requires you to catch and hook someone to gain the benefits. Remember Me requires you to find and hit the obsession enough. Nurse's requires you to find and hit someone first. There are conditions which must be met on the killer's end to gain those benefits. NOED has none of that. It just... happens.... because you failed. Even if you look at all other insta-downs, there is some catch, something the killer must do to gain that insta-down. Devour, hook 3 people and ALLOW the saves. MYC, hook someone then allow a save. Myers EW3, gain enough EW. Chainsaws and insta-hatchets, actually hit someone with a more difficult to aim attack. Yadda yadda.
I'd be all for making NOED more powerful if it was changed in such a way that the killer was required to do something to gain the benefits. Maybe they have to get 1 hook on everyone before the gates power. Maybe they need to kill someone before the gates power. Maybe they need to make survivors bleed collectively for 2 minutes over the course of the game. I'm just throwing out random ideas here, my point is that NOED is totally a crutch perk simply because of the conditions under which it activates.
I certainly have my issues with NOED, but my point is that NOED can be completely negated if you want it to be. Compare that to DS which the things you mention are not hard counters, they are more soften the blow sort of things. When DS gets nerfed I actually am in favor of a NOED re-work, but ONLY after DS has been addressed.
But we do agree on everything else.
"My point is that NOED can be completely negated if you want it to be"... as long as you are in a group. If you are playing solo this really isn't an option. You can't control the rate at which other survivors do gens, and you have no way to confirm the number of totems destroyed. I run Small Game a lot lately purely to find Ruin and NOED. I will destroy every totem I can find, but I still end up in games where the gens get done before I can do it. I'll even ignore doing gens myself (doing my 1 gen near the start for my emblem) and focus on totems only to have every gen done before I get them all. A lot of times that comes down to being chased. If I can totally avoid the killer and not get into a chase I might be able to get all the totems before the endgame. But if I get chased, gens get done fast, and even if I can find all 5 totems I can't exactly do them if I'm running from the killer. And if other survivors start going down a lot, well now I'm forced to do gens to make up for them not doing gens, which means less time I can find totems. If you play in a group, yes, you can easily pop all the totems before endgame and completely avoid NOED. Solo, not so much, to a point where NOED procs and killers that might not have gotten kills suddenly got 2 people and got 2 free kills (because no one will come save them unless NOED drops).
There are only 5 totems on a map, so even solo it would be easy to just find and count each totem. If the other survivors are not doing gens while you get the totems or vice versa then that is a problem of the survivors, not the perk itself. I myself have single handedly removed NOED on a numerous amount of games by myself ( I dont play SWF ) so I have to disagree with you. I think it is fully possible to negate NOED by yourself. Again though just to be clear I still do see NOED as an issue
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Look at what you caused, Tyde!
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@Boss said:
Look at what you caused, Tyde!Lol, funny thing is I didn't create this post with malicious intent towards tyde, I actually really like him I just have a disagreement. It all seems to have spiraled out of control though
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@Paddy4583 said:
FrenziedRoach said:Funny, as somebody who prefers Lithe, I can't agree with you.
SB limits my own mobility between chases. When it's on cooldown, I have to walk. Lithe gives me the freedom to run anytime I want - and vaults are the easiest thing in the world to find - especially since it works over pallets.
All these perks must always be a "once per chase" perk, PEROID
I would agree if scratch marks were removed and killers had less speed.
Yeah, sure, so you can loop 10 times, instead of 4 around one pallet. Got it.
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OK, so I think I am just gonna abandon this discussion, I only intended for it to be a discussion about a youtuber's thoughts about a nerf and yet somehow we got into an argument about DS, SC and BBQ so of course you can all talk to each other but as for me i'm jumping ship before I hit the iceberg so, good talk guys!
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Hi @HeroLives0
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Hey ploopz! How’s it going pal?ThePloopz said:Hi @HeroLives0 -
It’s going good I’m totally lost on what they were talking about on this thread but how are you lolHeroLives said:
Hey ploopz! How’s it going pal?ThePloopz said:Hi @HeroLives0 -
Pretty sure I wasn’t referring to looping as the scratch marks don’t assist at all in a loop, but well done on the contributionRSB said:@Paddy4583 said:
FrenziedRoach said:Funny, as somebody who prefers Lithe, I can't agree with you.
SB limits my own mobility between chases. When it's on cooldown, I have to walk. Lithe gives me the freedom to run anytime I want - and vaults are the easiest thing in the world to find - especially since it works over pallets.
All these perks must always be a "once per chase" perk, PEROID
I would agree if scratch marks were removed and killers had less speed.
Yeah, sure, so you can loop 10 times, instead of 4 around one pallet. Got it.
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People seem to not realize that the other exhaustion perks activating in the same chase is way more difficult to pull off than sprint burst. Tyde did this and it was kinda plain annoying. Sure, there's a sprint burst embedded in these perks. You don't use it ever 80 seconds in a chase like SB. Balanced, lithe and DH activate in the middle of the chase or when you're injured, requiring a 140 second or higher chase to activate twice in the first place WITH set conditions.
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@Paddy4583 said:
RSB said:@Paddy4583 said:
FrenziedRoach said:
Funny, as somebody who prefers Lithe, I can't agree with you. SB limits my own mobility between chases. When it's on cooldown, I have to walk. Lithe gives me the freedom to run anytime I want - and vaults are the easiest thing in the world to find - especially since it works over pallets. All these perks must always be a "once per chase" perk, PEROID
I would agree if scratch marks were removed and killers had less speed.
Yeah, sure, so you can loop 10 times, instead of 4 around one pallet. Got it.
Pretty sure I wasn’t referring to looping as the scratch marks don’t assist at all in a loop, but well done on the contribution
"And killers had less speed"
Nice dodge attempt btw
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@IronWolf115 said:
@Boss said:
Look at what you caused, Tyde!Lol, funny thing is I didn't create this post with malicious intent towards tyde, I actually really like him I just have a disagreement. It all seems to have spiraled out of control though
It's the DbD community.
What's new?
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Can you count to potato 🥔RSB said:@Paddy4583 said:
RSB said:@Paddy4583 said:
FrenziedRoach said:
Funny, as somebody who prefers Lithe, I can't agree with you. SB limits my own mobility between chases. When it's on cooldown, I have to walk. Lithe gives me the freedom to run anytime I want - and vaults are the easiest thing in the world to find - especially since it works over pallets. All these perks must always be a "once per chase" perk, PEROID
I would agree if scratch marks were removed and killers had less speed.
Yeah, sure, so you can loop 10 times, instead of 4 around one pallet. Got it.
Pretty sure I wasn’t referring to looping as the scratch marks don’t assist at all in a loop, but well done on the contribution
"And killers had less speed"
Nice dodge attempt btw
we are taking about a chase not looping, my comment was coherent with the conversation.
i see by the majority of your steam profile comments that your a quick to high sodium level killer so I’m not surprised you were triggered by The idea
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@Paddy4583 said:
You’re original post was talking about during a chase! Not in general.
of your being chased you leave a trail behind you and if your escape perks can only be used once as you stated, then I said I’d agree if the scratch marks were removed from the chase not in general.You already have the means to remove scratch marks from the chase, it's called "Dance With Me" and it works very well - especially when paired with Lithe.
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I’ll just point this one thing out:
Time and time again I’ve seen people complain about SB. Its ridiculous power coupled with its constant availability make it extremely gg ez. 50% of the time it’s a get out of jail free card for chases, and the other 50% its a brain dead panic button for when you’re too numbskulled to notice the Killer ever approaching you.
I have hardly, If EVER, seen anyone gripe about Balanced, Lithe, or DH. Why? Because they’re not the same GOoJF card/panic button that SB is. Sure, they’re absolutely infuriating for the Killer, but they’re not nearly as readily available as SB. DH is basically nothing more than a free juke that can only be used while injured. Most maps have like two or three places that Balanced can be used (some, like Suffocation Pit, only have one), while SB has the whole map. Lithe is just... if there’s one thing that’s fun for the Killer, it’s mid-vault hitboxes. I’ll leave it at that.
Using these three Perks requires a combination of skill and luck, unlike Sprint Burst, which is basically the DBD equivalent of Reaper getting Play of the Game by pressing Q.
Nerf SB, and maybe Adrenline since it’s SB for people too lazy to press Lshift+free healing. The others are fine, thanks to their increased nicheness, reduced effectiveness, and semblance of predictability.
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We were talking permanently, if the perks could only be used once per chase (chase not including loops)FrenziedRoach said:@Paddy4583 said:
You’re original post was talking about during a chase! Not in general.
of your being chased you leave a trail behind you and if your escape perks can only be used once as you stated, then I said I’d agree if the scratch marks were removed from the chase not in general.You already have the means to remove scratch marks from the chase, it's called "Dance With Me" and it works very well - especially when paired with Lithe.
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@Paddy4583 said:
We were talking permanently, if the perks could only be used once per chase (chase not including loops)
And I was pointing out it's not necessary as there are ways to hide them completely. 3 seconds is a long time, especially when you are running at 150% speed and are good at misdirection.
May I also introduce you to "Lightweight" if they bug you so much? If you have trouble losing the killer due to scratch marks, the tools are there if you'd just let go of your meta-perks and play with them.
What you and the rest of the "this is too much" crowd fail to understand is none of these perks are meant to be used more than once per chase. Indeed ,they are doing everything they can right now to encourage survivors to stop looping and get them to actually LOSE the killer instead of playing Scooby Do around a pallet forever.
Bloodlust, the way Evader is scored during chase, high-visability loops getting some sight blockers, and now exhaustion nerf - all designed to punish survivors who stay in long and drawn out chases. The devs are doing everything in their power to make the chases more and more favorable to the killer the longer the chase goes on. You might want to start adjusting your play style to that now as I suspect there will be more to come.
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I also agree with you OP, Sprint Burst really is the only issue
Someone uses 2 times Sprint Burst against me today when there were only 2 survivors left, note he is a very good juker, and i was playing LeatherFace on the Irowork of Misery, had the Sprintburst not proc I would have gotten him in the first 40 seconds
Dead Hard and Lithe honestly shouldn't be nerfed at all.
Balance landing can be made into infinite loops on some map massively wasting the killer's time so this one might need some adjustment but not too heavily the same as Sprint Burst
Sprintburst will still be the most used Perk after the nerfs, which imo is wrong, as it is still the strongest even after the nerfs
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@SenzuDuck said:
That's why killers need to learn that you can break off a chase and go after someone else. I see too many killers ignore survivors doing gens right infront of them because a survivor upset their feelings.While this is true, but when the moment when you chase after someone else, they will also sprintburst away back into a safe zone/ loop spot, obviously, it's a good idea to chase them if they are in the open with no cover
This would probably be fixed when the exhaution nerf hits anyway
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I’m going to jump in half way yhrough a conversation and won’t bother to understand context or read it and wade in with an incorrect assumption and just say words, and finish with a few more incorrect assumptions.FrenziedRoach said:@Paddy4583 said:
We were talking permanently, if the perks could only be used once per chase (chase not including loops)
And I was pointing out it's not necessary as there are ways to hide them completely. 3 seconds is a long time, especially when you are running at 150% speed and are good at misdirection.
May I also introduce you to "Lightweight" if they bug you so much? If you have trouble losing the killer due to scratch marks, the tools are there if you'd just let go of your meta-perks and play with them.
What you and the rest of the "this is too much" crowd fail to understand is none of these perks are meant to be used more than once per chase. Indeed ,they are doing everything they can right now to encourage survivors to stop looping and get them to actually LOSE the killer instead of playing Scooby Do around a pallet forever.
Bloodlust, the way Evader is scored during chase, high-visability loops getting some sight blockers, and now exhaustion nerf - all designed to punish survivors who stay in long and drawn out chases. The devs are doing everything in their power to make the chases more and more favorable to the killer the longer the chase goes on. You might want to start adjusting your play style to that now as I suspect there will be more to come.
There was was no need to point anything out if you’d bothered to read any of what was said.
They don’t bug me, I never disagreed with the nerfs at all try reading instead of making assumptions.
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I have never seen killers complain about that oh that pesky Balanced Landing. He states that the perk isn't always viable and claims its has the same problems as Sprint Burst? Balance Landing is incredibly dependent on map and positioning as a survivor. You cannot activate it whenever you want. What is he talking about?
Also its a lie to say that survivor only have to be in chase for 40 seconds for their exhaustion perks to be activated again. The timer doubles for 80 seconds while running (typically what you do when you're being chased) and 64 with Vigil.
Lets just ignore mechanics for the sake of an argument.My issue with the exhaustion nerf is that it is pointless, since it doesn't shake up the meta. Sprint Burst is still king. None of the exhaustion nerfs can compete with it. Dead Hard is easy to bait out and can be render useless by killers with instant down perks and powers. Lithe might get you hit when you try to vault and Balanced Landing is incredibly map dependent.
I have no idea what he was trying to prove in a video where he only managed to use one exhaustion perk per chase against a freshly prestige nurse that played poorly in that match.
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The exhaustion nerfs, then it got crazy.TydeTyme is apparently some high ranked dbd god. He says that the other perks deserved the exhaustion nerf as well. The op disagrees, and life goes on basically. I’m good though! Trying to level up my GD KATE!!!! Enjoying clown?ThePloopz said:
It’s going good I’m totally lost on what they were talking about on this thread but how are you lolHeroLives said:
Hey ploopz! How’s it going pal?ThePloopz said:Hi @HeroLives
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Tyde was totally right in his video. Yes SB was the worst offenders, but all of them needed it.1
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Deal considering there are already killers that have this, I’d be fine with that, Dr would be useless though.Tsulan said:
We remove scratch marks and killers have a slightly slower speed. In exchange, survivors don't hear heartbeat and can't see the red killer strain.Paddy4583 said:
I would agree if scratch marks were removed and killers had less speed.FrenziedRoach said:Funny, as somebody who prefers Lithe, I can't agree with you.
SB limits my own mobility between chases. When it's on cooldown, I have to walk. Lithe gives me the freedom to run anytime I want - and vaults are the easiest thing in the world to find - especially since it works over pallets.
All these perks must always be a "once per chase" perk, PEROID
Deal?0 -
Deal considering there are already killers that have this, I’d be fine with that, Dr would be useless though.Tsulan said:
We remove scratch marks and killers have a slightly slower speed. In exchange, survivors don't hear heartbeat and can't see the red killer strain.Paddy4583 said:
I would agree if scratch marks were removed and killers had less speed.FrenziedRoach said:Funny, as somebody who prefers Lithe, I can't agree with you.
SB limits my own mobility between chases. When it's on cooldown, I have to walk. Lithe gives me the freedom to run anytime I want - and vaults are the easiest thing in the world to find - especially since it works over pallets.
All these perks must always be a "once per chase" perk, PEROID
Deal?0 -
He's being a child by stating he's going to bail on DbD.
I do agree with most of his points though. The exhaustion stuff is well done.
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