So i just found out that BHVR are looking at changing medkits.
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Thank you! That's what I was trying to say!
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ALso they said "Instat heals are gone"
Soooooo.....
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Wow that went in twice! Sorry for the double post!
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And if you tell anyone you'll be in violation of HIPAA...
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Lol all the “I hope it’s a nerf to insta heals” comments but in the other Nurse threads “Doom and Gloom Bhvr broke the nurse”.... the double standard continues to amaze me.
smdh
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Bleedout and Sacrifice aren't equivalent to gen time, though.
Completing a gen doesn't kill the killer.
Bleeding out or getting Sacrificed ends the game for the Survivor.
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A BnP completes 5% of the total survivor objective. In order to be equivalent it would have to reduce each survivors hook times by 6.25%.
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25% on a gen is good, but it's not a big deal, and certainly nowhere near as big a deal as most Killer UR addons and offerings, or the syringe.
The BNP is a UR that is nowhere as good as other URs.
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nooooooooooooooooooooooooo😫😫😫hippo violation here
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The other thing to note is that Hook Time is not really how we measure a killer's progress.
It's by Hooks, not time on hook.
The actual equivalent of 5% survivor objective is a free hook -- a hook is around 8% of a killer's task each game. Basically a BNP is more comparable to something like an Ivory Mori.
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Now let's be fair, you're comparing apples to oranges with this comparison. 25% of 120 seconds is 30 seconds. 25% of 80 seconds is 20. In addition, a killer's progression still goes if they're on the hook without them having to do anything extra this includes travel time away from the hook, etc. A generator stops progress the moment a survivor stops working on it. Oh you can also interrupt BNPs completely wasting them. No telling how many times I've been interrupted by a killer or not got to use a BNP because I end up being chased. It should be purple at MOST.
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To be honest I remember the devs mentioning they wanted to change instant heals to auto-heals a few months ago. I can't find it anywhere but I remember they talked about it.
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I think the BNP talk has kinda derailed all this.
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I think it's gonna be instaheal nerfs to make them heal over time, like they said they wanted to do once. They got the function to work with Second Wind, so I assume they're gonna use it for those two addons. I also hope they're updating a lot of the useless addons, like skillchecks being bigger,
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Glad I am not the only one!
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Offtopic: there can be 4 bnp installed on 4 or the same generator...
On topic:
I think those syringes will stop consuming the complete medikit, but add a delay to the instant heal. I guess itll be one of those variants:
- "Get healed by 1 healthstate after X seconds."
- Get 100% of healing progress over X seconds.
Then comes the question if the hot-buff gets canceled upon getting hit or not. (A surv getting up between wiping the weapon and picking them up sounds quite aggravating)
If the devs are feeling brave, the syringe might scale with the medikit used.
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Appologies for the WALL OF TEXT. Gradschool is kicking in and I got a lot of nervous writing energy, and thinking about chase math is fun.
My theory on medkits is that Instas will stay in but get a serious downside or something.
Getting a 50% 'insta' doesn't make sense as an upgrade for a medkit unless it can be used multiple times. Even then its still really weird because the function of a medkit is ALREADY to give you a big heal.
Like "Insta, but now your broken for the rest of the match" probably would be the 'ideal' for insta-heals: Your still artifically extending a chase to be a 3 hit chase, which is HUGE, but if the killer forces you to pop it suddenly all your future chases are 1 hit chases. So your 'frontloading' your health and are essentially trying to use that extra hit to fully ditch the killer, rather than using it to compound the sorta boring invisible mathematical power Survivors have in terms of how time favors them, which is what things like Instas are used for currently.
Like no one uses Instas to 'heal' or 'escape.' They just use them to artifiically force an minute onto the chase. Due to how killer movespeeds and survivor speedboosts on hit work, it takes a killer a minimum of 16 seconds, assuming the survivor runs in a straight line, to catch the survivor, including the 12 free meters the survivor gets while the killer blood wipes and the roughly 1.7 meters the killer needs to be within for a lunge to hit a fleeing survivor. But in reality using things like pallets and windows dramatically increases the 'time cost' of every hit quite substantially, even when done 'sub-optimally.' So if 4 survivors use a first aid kit with an insta and run poorly, lets say only doubling the 16 minimum seconds a single extra hit costs the killer, your still looking at (Assuming the survivor starts 12 meters away from the killer when they are detected and the killer always takes about double the 'perfect' possible time it takes to win a chase at 12 meters) at 192 seconds to down and hook two survivors ONCE. While, yes, hooking a survivor gives the killer a small tempo advantage (As they take two people of generators, a rescuer and the hooked survivor), assuming it takes the killers 2 won chases to kill a survivor, that is 384 seconds, or 6 minutes, for the killer to close out those 2 chases.
Even if those two survivors are in chases 100% of the time or are prepping for a chase, the killer INSTANTLY gets into another chase after downing the survivor right in front of a hook, and only two survivors repair gens, that gives the 2 survivors 180 'leeway' seconds for travel times and hiding to repair 5 gens, even without repair speed increases, in that time. A 32 second chase is pretty near perfect play for killers who aren't nurse or spirit if your opponent is using terrain to defend themselves. Removing the Insta removes 128 chase seconds from the match.
That still gives the survivors 54 'flex' seconds. Again, there is a reason the game on a fundemental mathematical level favors survivors unless the killer can 'bypass' a chase. its why any time a killer is forced to play out an entire chase as part of their kit they are called an M1 killer and instantly can't rise above mid tier: They literally can't win vs optimal play by survivors who play tactically rather than emotionally and attempt to collectively win more often than they lose, taking sacrifices in stride, which is common at higher ranks, as opposed to low ranks where often survivors can't emotionally handle leaving a survivor behind with the understanding on average everyone will rise in rank at a relatively equal clip if they do so. However, 54 'flex' seconds is WAY less than 128: We are talking about the difference between also having time to just casually open a gate vs hardly having enough time to travel between gens, or things like slow down perks like Ruin negatively affecting you, or patrols actually putting the time advantage on the killer's side. While the game 'defaults' to a survivor aggregate win (as in, 3/4 survivors pipping on average), insta heals push it to a point where it is... really unreasonable to expect the killer to win without a very big skill gap.
If, however, you got broken after using an insta, your 'neutral' on time if you can't actually escape that first chase, and go time NEGATIVE if it ends up taking 3 hooks to kill you. This is still a good upgrade (escaping a chase without getting hooked is a HUGE time win and worth pretty significant repair cost: Like if you can choose between getting someone to slip out of a chase without the killer entering a new chase, and repairing 2 gens, it is generally better to save the person from the chase!), but no longer 'defaults' to time positive, which is the real problem with instas, DS, basically anything that adds 10 seconds minimum to the killer's chase or 10 seconds off every repair. The fact that the survivor 'undoes' the killer's victory in a chase (because the killer is designed so that getting hits is the ONLY progress they can make in a match, imagine if the killer could just undo a generator to get a sense of how much it sucks to lose out on a down you earned) is a very big NPE, but its made worse by the fact that the optimal survivor play when using medkits is to engage in extreme NPE that has little counterplay besides Franklin's Demise. Like sometimes a NPE being optimal is ok, but generally that NPE should come about because someone engineered that advantage (Ex: Hook camping, or sabotage rescues, both INTENSELY unfun for the victim but are the result of longer interactions that are ultimately avoidable by good play that is fun to engage in). In essence, first aid insta heals are both a massive advantage to survivors time wise AND an 'un-earned' gutpunch for the killer.
This is also why the design of toolkits and their upgrades is very problematic. There is an obvious desire to specialize as an 'objective' focused player, but DBD is, essentially, a game about time. The core mechanics all revolve around time assuming you don't care about stealth at all and are just going to 'brute force' things (Which is why no one uses stealth play. Stealth play only makes sense if the time equation defaults to the killer winning on good chases). And the margins here are so small that something like reducing the time to repair a gen by 10 seconds seriously impacts the viability of the killer role at high end play, forget about BNP suddenly getting you around 60 seconds off the match!
Also, obviously chase math is more complex than that napkin math, after all as more gens are done it becomes harder to repair them without the killer pressuring you. Gen kicks change things, as do killer powers, but the math was insanely favorable for the survivors because I assumed 0 travel time or patrol time. While in reality it is hard to play a perfectly optimal game even non-optimal games are still affected by the fact that, all things being equal, repair time is faster than downing time.
TL;DR: Insta heals are bad not because they are instant heals (Which is unfun but whatever), but because they add a minimum time to down all 4 survivors of 64 seconds without the survivor even TRYING to do anything besides run directly away. It is more a math problem than anything else.
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Correct, but remember that the game is essentially a time equation where both sides are using snippets of time to try to make progress towards an objective or stop it.
While sacrificing ends the game for the survivor, its integral to the game's design that survivors can experience very permanent negative consequences towards their ability to act, while killers can't, because the timing math of a match starts out inherently favoring survivors quite heavily.
The killer NEEDS to be able to efficiently eliminate players for the entire concept of the game to work. It is an inherent part of the role you take as a survivor to be eliminated, and not being ok with that is like saying you want to play fighting games but you don't ever want to be hit by a corner combo, despite picking a zoner character who's weakness is getting locked down in a corner.
Like this is a round about way of saying 'Its the killer's job to kill, hur' but like... it is critical to internalize that the ONLY effect the killer can have on the match is to either actively eliminate players, or use the threat of eliminating players to influence their behavior. The game 100% can't shy away from letting killers do this, and saying 'it isn't fun to be eliminated' is essentially like saying 'the game isn't fun when I am losing!'
"It ends the game for the survivor" isn't a rational way to argue against something negative for the survivor. Ending the game for the survivor isn't just THEMATICALLY what the game is about, but is one of the games only two real mechanics, and the only one the killer really has any control over.
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i hope that insta-heal get changed into gradually healing like the Steve unhooking perk and the Nancy locker one or that you can only use it on yourself as it was a good way to abuse the game by instahealing others in the face of the killer.
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UR's in general are OP for the most part. I wish this game didn't use consumables as such a fundamental part of the games balance.
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Yeah, URs are pretty much gamebreaking, especially on Killer. On Survivor only the Skeleton Key and AH Syringe are really broken. Rainbow Map and BNP aren't that amazing.
The hook timer and gen time are related in converse, but not entirely equivalent. And taht said, hooks is the better measure rather than hook time.
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