Spirit and basekit Nurse aren't bad or OP, ya'll just need to git gud
Both Spirit and Nurse are fine and balanced. The only problems were Prayer Beads (debatable) and 4,5 and Omega Blink.
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Balance doesnt equal fun, and thats what most people have a problem with- they aren’t fun to go against.
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Losing isn't fun but it's part of the game. Having Nurse and Spirit hate-nerfed isn't fun for those who play them
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I didnt say they weren’t fun because survivors lose a lot against them, they arent fun because of certain aspects of their power.
with Nurse, she wasnt fun because after missing a blink she was right next to the survivor she blinked to and could easily blink right on top of them, getting a free hit. Also, once you got good with her she became and unstoppable killing machine, the survivors skill usually meant nothing on an open map.
with Spirit, most people hate the guessing game that comes with her power, as it feels really cheap and boring to vs. She can easily dominate very good survivors, to the point where the singular survivors skill wont matter at all against a good Spirit in chase.
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If you can't go against them that's on you. I still don't see why both are hated, they are easy to counter if you think. But hey nerf all the good killers, not our problem finding lobbies will take ages
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I'm literally a Hag/Huntress main, I play Spirit on ocassion but you do you boo
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I did, I'm consistently in purple ranks, tho I do avoid red ranks like the Plague. I got gud, maybe you should too :)
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agreed
and yes prayer beads is broken because there's no counterplay compared to base power spirit
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People are bad because on red ranks they don't want to play as any other killer but only nurse or spirit. Why? Because you are bad, no survivors. I'm glad that FINALLY they are changing her. No more 4 or 5 boosted blinks. Next is spirit I hope with her addons..
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No clue how those contradict eachother but ok, I'll just ignore you at this point, you're nothing but spam :)
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im hoping ur trolling.Spirit with stridor is literal definition of bs like prayer beads.Also thinking doesnt counter something that can track you by sound.You just get lucky here and there so you actually outplay the spirit.I mean you can obv just gen rush spirit but it depends how good can she track with sound and how many downs can she get in a small amount of time.About nurse i actually LIKED going against her no sarcasm intended.But spirit is just bs,you cant outplay something by only having information that she is phasing aka the whooshing sound,u are prob gonna say "just put on iron will idiot" or smth like that.You shouldnt need perks to even BARELY counter her but not actually.And then there are stridor spirits which are 99% of spirits i face
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They are not "not bad." They're actually bad. I'll give you that they aren't exactly OP, but they aren't really much fun to go against as a survivor. Especially Spirit.
That's why they are bad.
And they become worse with add-ons and certain perks. Anyone who says Slug Nurse with IF, Distressing and KO isn't ridiculous has never really gone up against good one.
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2800 killer main here. I mained Nurse and Spirit. I can confirm that they are OP. Yeah I said it because I also play both sides and those killers need slight nerfs. I stopped playing them because they are too easy to 4k with especially on nurse infection fright slug builds.
Post edited by Claudette_Baguette on6 -
I don't exactly call other Killers needing to lose multiple gens to land a single hook all that fun either.
If you play Clown, Wraith, Freddy, Trapper, Pig, Shape, Legion, Plague, Doctor, hell it doesn't mater what Killer is listed here. The majority of Killers in DbD simply aren't fun to play as the higher you go in ranks. The more skill that gets added into the game, for both Killer/Survivor, the less these Killers can do overall. It simply takes too long for most of them to go though loop after loop. That then leads to those Killers being taunted or BMed more often than not.
Why should it be fun for one side and not the other? The majority of Killers already can't deal with high rank gameplay. Nerfing the only Killer/s able to do so is only going to do more harm than good. This updated Nurse is going to make high rank for Killer players that much worse when there is even less viable choices to pick from. That in turn will make Survivor gameplay worse as well when they see even LESS different Killers than what few they see already.
Does Nurse need her adjustments? Yes, Nurse is way too far ahead of the other Killers.
But other things need to come first. Other Killers need to be high rank viable before Nurse gets brought down. If you do things out of order, it tends to cause more problems than it fixes. It's the same as building something. If your foundation is crap, nothing will stand on it.
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Then the solution isn't a nerf since those are designed to solve balance issues. If you see a non-balance issue with the Spirit then the solution should be set up accordingly.
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Let me translate: Spirit and nurse are not fun cause we can't bully and loop them for ages
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The Problem is that a lot of Survivors want a DIRECT Counterplay for every Killer no matter their playstyle.
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For example my go to solution has been to have her leave a trail after ending a phase walk showing the patch she took. This gives visual feedback to show what just happened turning:
"Omg she came out of nowhere #########!?"
to
"Omg she was waiting there the whole time? I should be less predictable with my vaults next time"
This technically does have small balance implications, however since usually the information is only given when it's too late to be used to directly help in that specific moment it ultimately would be used as data for determining what to do when mindgaming that Spirit. However the biggest effect a change like this would have is reducing frustration, which is a pure QoL effect rather than a balance one.
It's easier to not be frustrated by something when you understand what went wrong and something like a trail helps with that.
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atm without using iron will(spirits run stridor anyway)you cant even have a single bit of counterplay.
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At worst that's still false.
If you have counterplay while injured with iron will then give her hell while you are still healthy.
Also that's not even true since a lot of her counterplay is about messing with prediction which would still work even if you were fully visible.
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prediction is just a fancier word for guessing in this case,you cant predict where someone is going to go if you cant see em,hear them.And also alot of spirit mains i encounter say they have no problem with not being able to hear me,cause they hear my footsteps breathing etc.But you can outplay her if you get lucky,and choose the correct decision out of the ones that you had.Ofc out of the decisions you have none will 100% work you just choose what you think will work the best.Also the fact pallets are completely unplayable is kinda #########.Like i said needing to have iron will is still kinda #########,needing a perk to be able to even have a chance to outplay her.Once someone defending spirit told me "you dont need iron will it just makes it easier"how is there ANY predictions when you can just hear someones grunts?I know this doesnt have anything to do with our conversation atm but just putting that incase ur bout to say you dont even need iron will or something similar to it
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nonononono
If you have enough information to deduce someone's next move rather than simply estimate it then that's a reaction. And the information required for an estimation doesn't need to be what they are doing at that exact moment since Humans act according to patterns which can be determined while playing with them and then utilized to determine the next move in the sequence.
Obviously no action will work 100% of the time, if it did then you could simply preform that action every time and the Spirit would never hit you. Instead both you and the Spirit are forced to use what they've seen each other do in prior encounters to determine what they each will do in THIS encounter.
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knew u would introduce "patterns".They depend COMPLETELY on the other person and he can do something completely illogical of what you would think,so thats really unreliable.Like at t walls for example.First time they bait you into vaulting the window and you vault it.And then you would think they wouldnt do it again,but they do and you get baited again.Also where is that information ur talking about?Only thing i see is a spirit standing still with no sound or a whooshing sound.Im guessin you might be reffering to ur patterns again,but you dont have ENOUGH information if you guess wrong the first few times,which then brings me to the fact that it depends if you guess wrong or right the first few times.Also im really glad you didnt just say "git gud" or similar and are actually trying to have a normal conversation unlike many other players.
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Nurse is fun to go against, addon less it is really funny game and intense. I see you enjoy to bully bubba/clown/doctor/wraith and want ez wins. Literally go Play Nurse and you will see that addonless is totally fair, if you die 100% vs Nurse base kit that is on you.
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Let me translate: spirit and nurse are balanced because I can get easy 4k's every match
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The information is from both the Spirit standing still (telegraphing that you need to do a juke even if it's not enough to know which one) and more importantly you have data on what they have been doing in previous chases or previous parts of that specific chase depending on it's length.
For the record:
Information = What you know about the current situation.
Data = What you've seen in prior situations.
These aren't the standard definitions but it's useful to distinguish between "I see them vaulting so I should cut them off" vs "they vaulted the last 6 times so I should cut them off for the 7th".
EVERYONE acts according to patterns. It's simply an inescapable fact of human psychology. The difference from person to person is in what the pattern is and thus how easy it is to determine what someone's next action is varies depending on the complexity of the pattern, this is how we can say someone is more or less predictable than others even if it's all statistics when you boil down to it.
For example me and my brother are very similar in how we treat these kinds of mindgame situations. So if we play rock paper scissors and tie the first throw then we nearly always tie the next few as well even though statistically that doesn't make any sense.
In general however the factors that influence what someone will do in a given situation are:
- Difficulty of each option - What physically can they do?
- Payouts - What's the potential end results of each option?
- Statistics - What do most people do in this situation?
- Information - What options can they mechanically determine are not going to work?
- The data they have on you - How predictable are you?
All of these factors can be estimated. You know for sure what they Payouts are since they are static in any given situation. Statistic are also static but become less influencing as the game progresses. Information isn't quite known for sure due to things like Stridor but can still be estimated and is mostly static barring perks and fathers glasses. Data isn't static but you control it yourself and thus it is known.
Data in particular is powerful due to how you can manipulate it to make sure the Spirit is more predictable in the endgame.
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And yeah "git gud" isn't a productive thing to say. Give advice or you are wasting your time.
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What's 4,5?
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I'm all for a trail and have suggested it myself before as a way to ease frustration and encourage this style of play.
It's not strictly required since you can estimate what a Spirit did based off the outcome anyways. But it helps, especially for those who don't play Spirit.
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giggles!
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im guessing 4,5 blinks
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Ahh.
It seemed like they stated it as something different.
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This guy is most definitely a killer main.
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all of what you wrote sounds really nice on paper,but when you take it into a game you need to make QUICK decisions based on everything you wrote,and you dont have enough time for that.Then theres the fact that not running iron will ######### you over,or the killer running stridor ######### you over aswell or the spirit using the glasses.I said all of this tho already,but even considering everything you said it all bares to what happened the first few times,did you get downed or did you live by winning the 50/50s so you actually have enough information about ur opponent,or are you already on ur second hook and about to die next time you get hooked.Also thats my point that i was trying to make,its all a guessing game about who gets more lucky,cause even tho YOU HAVE information taking into the fact that you remembered correctly what happened in all of ur chases(which you cant cause you cant see the spirit but can only tell where did she end up leaving her phase so you cant actually tell what did she plan to do but only what the end result of her phase was.Also she can just do something completely illogical like i said and make it seem really weird)its still a guessing game with luck involved.ANYTHING that isnt guaranteed involves luck on what will happen next aka who will get more lucky and guess correctly.What you said can bend the chances A BIT but luck is still on the spirits side due to collision,numerous sounds survs make etc.Im pretty sure the fact that you need to run a perk to even stand vs spirit is kinda dumb and the fact that can be taken away from you by one perk or one addon is kinda dumb aswell
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I'm so happy you said this.
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I never run iron will.
In any case you have an absolute minimum of 4 attempts against a Spirit before you die so long as you aren't hook farmed without DS/BT or 2 hooked of course.
If you heal that number jumps up to 6.
It takes about 3 attempts to have a somewhat consistent read on the average opponent.
Your first attempt is without data and thus you can only use statistics and payouts. In theory this wouldn't let you do any better than RNG but in practice it does, however the difference isn't large enough to be consistent so if you want to call this one pure luck then sure fine whatever. But just understand that I'd estimate a 60% success rate for predicting a Spirit on your first attempt, with that number being higher if you are at low ranks.
Your second attempt has data but a single data point is not enough to construct a trend. Thus this is slightly easier but not by much and still isn't anything reliable.
Your third attempt has a trend now and thus you can make a meaningful prediction using it. This is where you can start to expect you can dodge the Spirit.
And finally by your fourth attempt you not only have a trend but also a possible chance to shake up the (very short) trend. By this point you can start getting consistent against decent Spirits. The best Spirits will still catch you due to doing the exact same thing from the other side but this is where you can separate the good Spirits from the bad ones.
Yes this is hard since you need to do it fast, but luckily it can be thought out in advance. Between chases you have time to process what you've seen the Spirit do and work out what your plan is in the next chase. Alternatively you can just try to do it intuitively, but I wouldn't count on that.
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Which means you cant really outplay good spirits alot,and just rely on everything u said in HOPES that u get lucky and outplay her a few times.Also I myself when running iron will dont really have that big of a problem going against her and i do everything i can do prolong the chase but its all luck no matter HOW MUCH you think and take into the fact statistics etc,but without iron will she can just hear u etc everything i stated in my previous posts.I play soloQ which means no communication which means healing is a waste of time and wont get you anywhere but you just HAVE TO DO GENS if you want to get anywhere and even then people just give up/dc cause spirit and she isnt fun nor balanced as she should be IMO i will always state that until they change her.
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Spirit will get looked into eventually, as she should. It doesn't even need to be a nerf, just something that makes her less miserable to go against.
People forget that everyone is playing this game for fun. If they ain't having fun they'll complain and DC and suicide on hook and not even try. No matter how much fun you have playing the Spirit, you're not the only one in the match, and your fun is no more important than anyone else's.
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I dunno if that's directed at me (cause of my post lol) so Imma just say, my other posts hold countless of strategies and counters that other Spirit mains and even survivors have pointed out. These people don't wanna listen to reason so I suggest not bothering to respond, it's a waste of time. But yea, sorry if my post seemed kinda unhelpful 😅
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It wasn't directed at anyone specific. It just tends to be the standard response to Spirit criticism. Even if I have to keep repeating myself to everyone individually so be it.
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Imma play devil's advocate for a sec. Alot of killer mains here constantly tell others counters for Spirit and they get ignored and even treated rudely for playing Spirit so they get annoyed and just say "git gud" . I hope I'm not coming off as rude btw
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The issue is that it happens in 2 separate conversations. You (a hypothetical Spirit player not you specifically) talk to 2 people and give the counters to the first and then when the second guy comes along you get fed up and just say "git gud", but now the 2nd person walks away with no counters thinking Spirits are just entitled and then they tell other people who make anti-Spirit threads which the other Spirit players continue saying "git gud" because they are still fed up and in the end nothing is accomplished because no one is really talking to each other even if initially they all were.
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True true, never really thought of it that way
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Nurse is no longer fun to play, and that's an issue.
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Says who? everyone DCs even in red ranks.
You are the one that wants EZ with a broken killer.
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Honestly yeah prayer beads are broken but lets be honest withour selfs. We have all been playing spirit then accidentally bumped into someone you didn't know was there and we all know it was a little bs. And nurse was just to good.
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