Why is the killer community so toxic and so coddled by the Devs?
Honest question. Survivor perks seem to get nerfed all the time in this game in the name "balance" but killer perks never get nerfed no matter how powerful they are. MoM was not that big of a deal and I rarely ran it, but now its just another of the many completely useless perks. The DS nerf was even bigger, but at least that is sort of anti-tunnel now I guess? Seriously though it does seem like the killer community is much more vocal in this game and they seem to always get their way. It is no wonder the queue time suck so bad and why I rarely play killer even though its easy mode at least at mid to high ranks. The only challenge is waiting for a game.
I've played off and on for a while and I can't understand why the game still isn't balanced at all. The main issue I'm talking about is playing SWF vs. running solo. SWF games(when my friends do play) I can sport an 80-90% win/escape ratio, but solo its 15-20% maybe and honestly if I don't survive usually no one in the game survives. I would estimate a full 80% of non SWF games end with the killer getting 4 kills. Everyone always talks about camping like JUST DO GENS AND WIN EZ. But is it for a non SWF game? Sure in SWF a camper will pretty much always just get 1 kill, but in solo games camping is pretty much an automatic win for killer because by the time other survivors know a camp is occurring its really too late to get on gens and win the game. I propose to combat this situation the Devs either make voice chat available for survivors to even the playing field for non SWF or make it only in non SWF games so that the sacrificial timer either dramatically slows or altogether stops when a killer is within X meters of the hook. Maybe even make it a perk so we lose a perk slot for it, but something anti camp besides just kindred which has a short range we can run.
Camping is totally fine in SWF, because you can counter it, but in NON SWF it is game breaking and something should be done to make it a losing strategy in both instances not just SWF. I know I'm about to get flamed by the toxic killer community here(most toxic community I've seen in 20 years of online gaming anywhere), but every survivor main know camping is the biggest issue in this game for non SWF players. The DEVs should do something to discourage it. I'm not saying against the rules, but just make it so it isn't such a great winning strategy vs non SWF. There has to be something you can do to balance it out and make the game fun to play even when a killer decides to camp. I know it isn't the killers job to make the game fun, but it IS THE job of the devs if they want people to keep playing. I'm not saying that survivors should escape every game or even 70% of the time, but there should be balance between SWF and non SWF.
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Killers aren't coddled by the devs at all. This game is unbalanced and survivor is the power role.
If you believe only killers are toxic: You should start playing killer yourself on a regular basis so you can experience the toxicity coming from the survivors' side first-hand. This is not "good survivors vs evil killers". You can find toxic people on both sides.
I only read the first part of your post, so I might have missed something.
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Do me a favor and play a mid-low tier killer at rank 1 buddy, at least 10-15 matches.
Survivors have always been the power role and still are, but the game is better.
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The game still favors survivors by a pretty big margin, especially at the higher skill levels. Survivor perks get nerfed when they're busted and have no counterplay.
Mettle of Man was stupidly strong and had zero counterplay.
DS is still one of the most powerful perks in the game, even against killers that don't tunnel at all.
If your winrate is as low as 20% when you're playing solo, that's on you. Adjust your perk build, adjust your playstyle, or do both.
Even if you're playing solo, it should be obvious when the Killer is camping the hook, because they stop patrolling the generators. If you have trouble figuring out what the killer is doing, just use Spine Chill. The game already discourages hook camping in a myriad of ways; the devs have pretty much done everything short of automatically opening the exit gates if the Killer spends more than 10 seconds in front of the hook.
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Wasn't Nurse, the absolute top dog of all killers, nerfed big time?
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I'm going to start my post off with saying even though im a killer main i still see things from survivors side as well now with that being said im going to be non biased as much as possible.
Firstly Mettle of Man was a game breaking perk no matter how you look at it in every situation it was borderline unfair to simply say it was not that big of a deal means you possibly didnt play before its change as it was totally broken now in regards to the nerf i will agree they over nerfed it without taking into account how useless it is now but blame behavior because if THEY HAD LISTENED to people who even told them it could not go live like that something could have been done ahead of time to tone it down but it felt like behavior didnt really know how to nerf it so they over nerfed.
DS was not really nerfed in a sense it was actually made better because you can use it to prevent a tunnel and for those who like to argue slugging jump in a locker or force a grab you can jump in and out of a locker quick and it forces a grab EZ DS stun is all im gonna say.
The reason you see more killers vocal is very simple most survivor players don't come on the forums out of fear most killers will mock them which in a way some people on here kinda do mock and not really try to be constructive but thats just how gaming communities work.
Queue times have actually been broken for awhile and it has a lot to do with this recent change to swf's as most survivors are just deranking to stay at low ranks of course its going to effect high rank queues granted i understand why people derank being red ranks is boring.
With all do respect the reason you win more in a swfs is simple its the fact you have comms and can pass off information a lot better then solo's can however you have to learn to change the way you play solo as Solo vs SWFs is honestly two different playstyles atleast in my opinion it is.
In regards to camping the developers have tried to find a solution with the latest being you lose emblem points for camping which is what we are working with now if someone is being camped the best solution is to power through generators as quickly as possible or you can try for a risky Borrowed time save and hope for the best.
I would honestly say camping in any sense is bad in all honesty the reason for it is you lose out on pressure and usually a good group of survivors know how to punish it.
With all due respect the devs have done pretty much all they can to prevent camping you have BT,DS,Losing Points i dont think they could really do anything else other then reward better gameplay also with respect if you are getting camped a lot sounds like you are most likely new or lower rank which camping tends to be a big thing the more you rank up the less you see it although its very common towards end game but thats because what else is a killer to do in that situation.
In conclusion Dead by Daylight is not perfect nor is the core of the game but there are some things that are out of your hands and sadly this is the case there are some people who do it just to make people like yourself react and post about it while they sit back and laugh because they got to you basically what im saying is dont take this game so serious camping is not fun but its also valid in some situations.
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Killers are a lot more vocal, in here at least.
Mom and DS nerfs were completely justified, this is coming from a (mostly) survivor main.
They said they were looking into "closing the gap between swf and solos" but I really don't know when are we going to get anything.
I agree about the camping issue. Devs talked about making kindred base kit at one point but they decided not to. It would have been a good idea to close the gap imo.
I also absolutely hate that I have to run ds to have a chance against campers/tunnelers. The game should punish more for camping, I shouldn't have to run perks every match.
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Short answer: They aren't.
Killers aren't toxic, people are, which means there are toxic players on both sides in relatively equal measure.
And the developers have never "coddled" anyone, as far as I am aware they have always condemned toxicity. Same thing with balance, you can't argue that killers never get serious nerfs. Look what happened to Nurse.
As for camping, yes it's an issue, yes it's unpleasant for all involved, but it's also a legitimate strategy. You can't justifiably call someone toxic for making use of designed game mechanics to secure a win.
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I feel like a good way to discourage camping would be to provide more incentives for Killers to leave the hook, instead of punishing the killer even more than the game already does. I think a lot of killers camp because they know that the game's not going their way, and they see no other way to get a kill.
If the gens are done (or close to done) and the exit gates are ready to open, then leaving the hook to try and down another survivor will take too long. By the time you get a down (Assuming you get a down at all), the other survivor will be unhooked, and all 4 survivors will likely escape. The killer knows this, so they're naturally reluctant to give up the chance to get at least one kill.
I have one idea to address this: make it so unhooking a survivor takes longer if the killer isn't nearby, but it's still instant if the killer is nearby. That way, the killer can feel more comfortable with leaving a hooked survivor alone, knowing that the survivors will waste a fair amount of time unhooking their friend.
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Very well put and I’m a survivor main
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Not to mention perks aren't just nerfed left and right for no reason.
Both Decisive Strike and Mettle of Man originally gave a free bonus hit to everyone using it, basically without any drawback. They destroyed the momentum of the game with little to no counterplay.
If you look at the killer perks that are top meta right now, the biggest two by far are BBQ and Ruin.
BBQ will probably not get nerfed at all. For one, it HAS been nerfed several times over the last year or so as many options for aura blocking have been added. Hiding behind gens, (iirc this was a bug which was kept, could be wrong though) the perk Distortion, and lockers blocking auras all let you completely nullify the perk 100% of the time if you choose to. Its 2 effects are also directly created to reward NOT tunneling and NOT camping, as going for different survivors grants you huge bloodpoints and you are shown targets to move away from a hook. Nerfing it would only lessen the reward for playing in a positive way.
Ruin shouldn't be nerfed, it should be completely reworked. Survivors don't enjoy playing with it, and killers don't like relying on a gamble of a perk. The game momentum needs an overhaul or secondary compulsory objective, but that's a massive change. Gen speed can't just be lowered as we've already seen people start to bawl over the fact that Dying Light works in a slowing build now.
Beyond that you have Enduring, which took the huge hit of no longer affecting perk stuns.
Ideally many other perks would exist at a usable level, but a meta is always going to exist and they can't just kill perks and obscenely buff others to force the meta to change.
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Sorry buddy, but I stopped reading at "MoM wasnt that big of a deal".
It was completely busted.
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I honestly stopped reading when I saw Mettle Of Man wasn't a big deal...
But just an fyi killer perks do get nerfed also, did you not notice the Enduring Nerf?
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You're hilarious, she's been absolutely broken since release, go check how long ago that was.
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And you've been absolutely Biased every time i've seen you, including expressly declining to see information that proved you wrong.
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We generally don’t care about solo survivors, but we demand nerfs because SWF teams can steamroll even some of the best killers without much effort
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OK, so I'm going to start out by pointing out how disingenuously you've framed most of your argument--your 'honest question' is peppered with matter of fact disparagement of killer players at large. Playing killer isn't 'easy mode', an optimal 4 player team vs an optimal 1 player team favours the 4. Bafflingly you almost Cotton on to the real easy mode of the game (SWF), but some kind of strange cognitive dissonance prevents you from seeing a 90% win rate as anything but entirely balanced. If you want to have a real discussion on this type of topic, please find a way to measure out your own bias. We all have it, mine is toward the killer side of things, but a post this passive aggressive is very difficult to respond to in good faith. Here's an attempt though:
The reasons killers seem more vocal/toxic/coddled is a type of confirmation bias. The information you find disagreeable on this sub and elsewhere stands out to you. The more survivor relevant stuff (bring back mettle of man, pause hook timer while camping, etc.) gets you nodding along because they'll make your life easier, when they'll make the killers job impossible. Your views on these matters are already set in stone--you already expect to see killer toxicity and survivor camaraderie, so you do. If there were a sliding scale of killer to survivor sided individuals, you're heavily on the survivor side and are therefore much more likely to disagree with killer concerns and nod along to survivor ones. Killers aren't more toxic, more coddled or more demanding than survivors: your perspective scews toward believing this due to the way you process information. I know this because the exact same thing happens to me when I browse these forums--I try to stay moderate, and I play both sides in the game, but the issues that seem more glaring to me are the ones that effect killers. I need to make an active attempt to drag myself toward impartiality (as mentioned above this is difficult when a discussion is started in bad faith).
I started writing a lengthy response to the rest of your message but since I'm not confident you'll take on board what I've said already I think I'll leave it for now. If you'd like more feedback I'd be happy to provide it.
TL:DR- the reason killers are more toxic and coddled than survivors is due to your perception of the situation rather than the actual events that are taking place.
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Honestly I just wanna applaud how well you framed and said that. I also agree with you.
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Educate yourself and see that devs constantly balance the game for BOTH sides. Old NOED was nerfed, unrelenting+STBFL combo was also nerfed and many others as well.
Yes it would be nice if devs finally adressed how brokenly strong SWF is and gave them some drawback while also buffing aspects of solo survivors but such changes will takes years to implement as is a tradition with DBD.
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Killers cry harder than survs do.
It is that simple.
Or most of the devs play killer themselves, like how in wow the devs played mage so mage would always be good.
But there clearly is a bias in this game and its a problem.
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There is clearly a bias in this post.
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Killers aren't being coddled, Survivors were just powerful out of the gate and a lot of nerfing is being down to bring them down to a more balanced level with killers.
It may seem like Killers are getting a lot of goodies and survivors are just being nerfed left and right, but it's necessary for the health of the game. That said I think BHVR could do a much better job of it; some of the calls they are making are questionable.
SWF is something BHVR has no answer for, people have been complaining about it for ages (from both sides) but BHVR has no idea how to resolve it while maintaining their own mission objective: which is to keep SWF in the game because it brings in more players.
It's a riddle that will probably never be answered, and BHVR does not want to do the common fix suggestion most people have (make some perks baseline for Survivors to bridge the gap between SWF and Solo).
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Yes because survivors will never bully level 1 killers just trying to do their daily objective like they've just done.
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I got 29 killer dailies in a row. I only had actual builds for 3 of them. felt bad man
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This entire community is too toxic and needs to play more of the other role. Something about this game just makes people forget there's a human looking to have fun on the other side of the keyboard.
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Also, just for how you think Killers are "coddled"
Enjoy. This will prolly make your biased heart happy.
Edit: INB4 "Oh that's a streamer... they don't couuuunttttt." Its a video of game play. An example.
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you want to know why it is constant "nerf survivors buff killers" is because THIS USED TO BE THE GAME WHEN IT RELEASED
all survivors and killers who have played since then can agree on 1 question "how did killers ever down anyone back then?" there was TRUE infinites, no entity blocker, old DS, no bloodlust, fast vault everything etc etc etc. so when you see this and it has taken 3 years to get to the current spot where survivors are still the power role, you begin to understand the mentality of "nerf survivors buff killers"
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This is very true
As someone that played in 2016-17.... This is so true it's not even funny. It made me quit the game till Legion came out.
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The was survivor favored for 2/3rds of the games life. People eventually stopped playing killer and nobody could found any matches.
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Swf cant be "slightly adjusted" because there is no difference between swf and solo ingame.
And if there were, they'd go back to lobbyjumping until theyre "4 randoms".
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I can't even remember the last time I got a Survivor Daily. It's been like two months now and I've been trashing killer dailies every day, only to get more worthless killer dailies.
I'm a Survivor Main.
Daily Rituals are dead to me. An utterly useless, wasted, pathetic excuse for a feature.
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I rarely do mine either, even as Killer.
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I mean, I'd play killer more if it didn't take 10 minutes for me to find a game. But since it does.... and it's only been getting worse throughout the year.... I have stuck to playing Survivor almost exclusively for a while now.
I am saving up the Mori Daily Rituals in my daily rituals board for shits and giggles.
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It takes you 10 minutes? I've been having alot better luck lately.
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Oh, you got camped?
Too bad that's a legitimate strategy.
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and also a bad one for Killer
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Also, for camping, let's not get "Face camping" and "Oh the hook is in my gen patrol" confused.
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Mostly an ineffective one. Sometimes it's the right play.
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Survivors needed more nerfing than killers did, simple as that.
If you're dying to camping, I'm guessing you're pretty low rank. Try bringing Kindred. It counters camping and is also helpful for making sure the team doesn't take too long to rescue you.
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Wait wait wait...the *killers* are toxic ?
Survivors have; insta-heal, BT, DS, DH, Lithe, SB, MoM, Spinechill and even an aura reading perk for finding the hatch! You guys have insane unbreakable loops, pallets respawning every 30s/60s, etc.
Who's toxic again ? Clearly you have not been a red rank killer who isn't Hillbilly.
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Your own post proves your complaint to be false. You claim the devs coddle killers but then say you escape 80-90% of the time in SWF. Doesn’t seem like killers are coddled too much to me based on those numbers.
If you have such a low escape rate solo then no offense, but you’re very boosted by SWF and aren’t very good at the game.
Regarding toxicity, it exists on both sides, but survivors are on a whole different level.
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To be fair that has nothing to do with "toxicity", or shouldn't anyway.
Using strong stuff be it perks, items, addons, strategies and so on isn't toxic, but being an unpleasant jerk is pretty "toxic". If it's in the game and working as intended it's fair game, but there's never any reason to be a rage goblin in post game chat or anything like that.
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NOED
IRON GRASP
UNRELENTING
SAVE THE BEST FOR LAST
BRUTAL STRENGTH
Have all received nerfs in the past.
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you mean survivors i guess.
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Not all the time. Sometimes 5 mins, long end is around 10 mins. Sometimes I grind some coffee beans, heat the water and brew the coffee and when I get back I still haven't found a lobby.
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Isn't it great to have opinions on stuff but put arbitrary numbers on them?
Thankfully, I don't need arbitrary numbers, I have actual data.
Let's see it.
So the killer got a 4k 44% of the time.
I guess it's pretty close to the what? 90% you said? 80%?
And I survived 34% of the time.
Isn't it great to have actual data?
But wait...there's more
These are from behaviour
Is there anything else that needs to be said?
Or is this clear enough for you?
I feel you, I wish I got more survivor dailies too. Or that the ones I got wore worth at least 30k...
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Nurse literally just got nerfed
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So it isn't fair to say those survivor perks are toxic but the perks related to killers that buff certain strategy are toxic ?
Your sentence made my IQ drop a little.
Also, please refrain from using kindergarden insults like "rage goblin" when first I'm not even mad and two at least go for something better we're all adults no ? ;)
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What is "winning" in this game? All of us are trapped in this purgatory forever, no matter if we survive or not. Death is not an escape. I've "won" as killer if I get more bp than at least three other people, and "won" as survivor if I get more bp than two other people.
Also the title of this thread made me laugh hard. My advice to everyone in every game is if you think something is op, try it out. You'll find that it isn't almost every time, and if it is, now it's op in your favor.
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The Doc is one of the weakest killer tho...
I'd like to see the amount of wins Hillbilly has.
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