I need to say this... Gens are not the problem...

Chases will have to be longer to compensate for longer gen times. Therefore maps will need more god loops. Therefore gen times do not determine match time.

I think your idea would be great for an alternate mode with 8 gens needed and 5 hooks to kill a survivor. Right now the game is fast paced though.

And another player drinking the "it's not my fault" koolade.

It's the player,every time. All the time. Not maps, loops, perks, survivors, gens, dedicated servers, pip or anything else. It's your gaming abilities.

Big maps? Killers move faster and start sooner than survivors, they see all the generators. They have all kinds of perks to slow the game down and track survivors. Try using them. If I ran around using the 5 meta perks, I too would struggle to "win" games. Adapt your strategy, instead of following the meta it the builds of your YouTube/twitch shepherd.

Personally, I choose gen pressure perks until I see SWF with 4 toolboxes/full loadouts then I go into poss off survivor perks.

Stop crying about things that don't need looking at. Learn to play better. Instead of repeating the same old ######### over and over.

I beg to differ.

This is nearly as fast as possible to get 2 people down on a killer without an instant down and ~3 gens where done even with 2 slowdown perks...

I'm not sure what you are saying here but its my fault. My bad for not clarifying my post. My argument is that gen times are without a doubt a problem to be discussed, moreso than map size infact. Map size is an issue dont get me wrong but yes, this is pretty much the fastest you can find and down someone without instant downs and yet even with a slight debuff to gen speeds, three got done immediately. I wanted to put this in the discussion because I am worried that the speed of gens getting done will get neglected and that should not happen. There are a whole mess of issues to be resolved, and youve listed them yourself but again, my argument is that the problem with gen speeds should not be dismissed for those other issues.

I was agreeing with gen speed being to fast as I was saying this more or less:

If 2 Fast back to back survivor downs in the first min or 2 of the game still results in ~3 gens popping then something is wrong with the generator speed in the game.

Edit: This is let alone with thanatohpobia getting 2 stacks due to it slowing down the gen completion.

That's exactly what most of us is saying!!! And we are saying the data for helping pointing in the right direction of were the real balance problem lies is worthless because it is gathered from an unbalanced source (the games itself). You can't put a top division top team playing against a college team and say the field they played in doesn't matter at all because the top division team massacred the college team both times! The game itself would be so unbalanced that you can't draw that conclusion. No one said that the stats they have are completly wortless, no one said they didn't know what they are doing in terms of balancing.

Everyone knows something need to be done and it will always be necessary to keep balancing the game. What we are saying (probably in words that seems you don't like) is that the stats can be a great source of information in, at least, pointing in the right direction to check were the real unbalance problems lies and guess what, the game might not even need balancing!!! Yes, I said it! We don't really know because, in my case, I keep piping most of my matches because most of my matches are against low rank killers and keep struggling to keep pip against my own rank killers let alone pip when playing against them. We just don't know because the matchmaking and piping system is flawed and so the data that comes from those matches results can't really help.

You can't nerf, lets say, Bubba because he gets 4k 80% of the time (is just an example). But how many of those times there were red rank killers playing against rank 10 survivors that started playing 1 or 2 weeks ago? Fortunatly, the devs use the data in a correct way by only using it to point on the right direction and then try and figure out, by other means, what is really happening there but if they had a reliable source of information by considering only matches were all players are the same rank (that actually they might have a filter for that) it would point them in the right direction more often. But even with a filter for that, if matchmaking system were less flawed, the data collected for it would be greater. The reallity is that no one knows what really happens behind the courtains and how they filter data. But we all know that the reliable data (data that can be used to point in the right direction of balancing the game) is a lot less than what it could be thus making lots of data being irrelevant for game balancing despite the fact that they might filter that data or not.

I hope it helps. Ive played alootttt of killer games. I've had quick wins and quick losses at high ranks, part of the game. This game on my vid was a first. I main doc so I'm used to the long, control-style game. I was blind sided when those gens popped on arguably my fastest down ever on a non one-shot killer.

If the killer is camping, unless all three of the others are simultaneously (erroneously) trying to rescue that single survivor, then there should be no issue working gens, since the killer isn't pressuring you at all. Ambushing unwitting survivors or 'camping' as you call it, by using a hooked survivor as bait is a valid play. That's why perks like insidious, and killers like Ghostface, Pig, and Wraith even exist. They're ambush killers. Even Spirit and Nurse can be used to long distance ambush. If your team isn't wise enough to keep at least one person working gens while one or two more go for a rescue, then it's not the Killers fault, and they shouldn't be punished for it. As to maps, while many are seemingly too large in scale, the reality is that each killer should ideally have a way to traverse maps quickly enough, while using their unique skill sets to keep pressure up. Killer reworks are a definite must in some cases, but gen times being slowed down isn't really the answer, not wholely, anyway.

Interactions with items and perks that affect gen times needs to be addressed, such as tool boxes stacking with certain perks, as an example. In my opinion, gen times should be reflective of how many are working on them. Whatever the time is for a solo Survivor to repair a gen on their own, un-added, should be exponentially reflected based upon how many survivors are working a a gen at current. I also think that gen repair perks shouldn't stack with tool boxes save for with special conditions.

Maps are a huge issue and would fix a lot of Killer issues.

Especially with certain tiles like The Ironworks of Misery (appropriately named) window, Haddonfield as a whole, the Preschool Window, Autohaven Workshop loop, the Entire center of Crotus Penn, etc etc.

A competent survivor can abuse loops like those with little risk. If a killer chases a survivor and that Survivor wastes a minute and a half of their time, even if the killer downs them, thats only a single hook while Survivors were on gens without worry.

I don't know who designs the maps for DbD but they desperately need a stern talking to.

Giant maps are not only an balance issue,t they are also unfun, imagine yourself playing Huntress and having to walk to pressure only one gen on asylum, like, I want to play DBD, not walking simulator. Maps are the issue not only cuz they are big, also cuz some god loops that are unmindgameble; even as survivor I know Asylum is complete BS

I'm sure it does bud.

Without a doubt. Its very important to me that the speed of gens being done being an issue isnt buried under all of the other issues that need addressing as well. Otherwise we will just keep getting bandaid solutions back to back.

I agree that maps are the main problem with the game. Loops without any mind-game potential (which is the skill factor of this game) or are borderline infinites with the addition to large maps which punish low mobility killers need to be looked at.

At the same time, gen speed should be looked at. Perhaps, the more generators are up, the longer they take? That way it avoids 3 generators popping before the first down?

Either that or the maps need to be made bigger, bring in more survivors and an extra killer possibly. Halve the perks and slow the game down so it's a true horror experience rather than Mario Cart between gens lol. Maybe that's just me, but I would love for this game to go to a more sinister and horror based theme than four people charging up gens while one person either camps, tunnels or cluelessly tries to stop two generators while three are in the process of being worked on.

I appreciate the thoroughness of your point. I want to thank you for sharing it with me, so lets talk about it.

When it comes to showing this video in particular, it was very important to showcase the absurdity of gen times not only by themselves but with a perfect set of events. Instant find ( which was based off of a successful GUESS) I didn't get looped or have a pallet dropped, and I downed the survivor as close to as fast as possible. Bear in mind that this was only possible because I played spirit. Most killers will not be able to do this at all, let alone consistent enough to be considered the standard for killers. With this being a best case scenario for killers period and the clean down, 3 ( yes three) gens were essentially done in that time without toolboxes. The reason I am counting that third one is because of the pegs. Regression without new ruin is terrible and a problem to talk about in a different conversation so once a gen gets to 96+ percent for simplicity sake it is very fine to count that as a completed gen as the main point isnt that they only have to do 2 gens at 2 mins into the game-- its that it takes a short time to get from 0 to 100.

You mentioned that it is not common for survivors to spawn on gens and go to each one and I would say that is up for speculation and the argument against you would be that at higher ranks, there likelyhood that survivors knowing that going to individual generators is the optimal way to attack them. However, I will concede that even at higher levels of play, survivors spawn in the same area AND choose to double up on the 2 nearest gens or worse. This said, the point isnt that they spawn separately and do gens, the point is that individually at any point in the game survivors by themselves can do one gen extremely fast. Multiply that 3 times and boo, multiple gens are being attacked this way. I wanted to point out that its possible even against a spirit who had a perfect start. I want to reiterate that against killers who don't have excellent chasing tools to get the 2nd hit quickly again, they have to spend even more time chasing that survivor which means more time for survivors to work on gens that take a short time to complete. I havent even brought up loops, strong pallets or map size yet.

I want to address this quickly as its not the point I was making, but the 4k doesnt matter so much for 2 main reasons: It doesnt determine if I pip or not like it used to and that 4k only happened because one survivor made a terrible mistake, and it could be argued that the other made a looping mistake. Which means if survivors didnt make the mistakes shown ( which is very common at high levels of play) then I would not even have gotten those double basement hooks in the first place AND the gens would still have been completed.

I want to also address the choice to not take CI shortly as well as this is an entirely new convo in itself. The perk is mediocre at best and Ill tell you why. The perk essentially makes the most important gens the only gens to be available to be worked on. Ill admit a bit of bias in this one and say that I am a Doctor main. My main strategy was developed due to years of playing him and that strategy is to assign "weight" to each gen. The further away from center of the map a generator is, the lighter weight it holds. I am willing to sacrifice a far off gen because I do not want to end up in a situation where survivors need 1 gen left and 1 of the 3 remaining gens to be worked on is on the other side of the map. That means the central area is a very important place for not only me but the survivors too if they want to win. CI essentially makes it to where survivors will attack the most important gens first and as I get looped and chase after the first hit, other survivors are working on those core gens because they have no other choice. Even if i were (and I do when the time is right) peel away and go after antoher survivor, that still leaves 2 survivors free to do the other gens left available by CI. By the time the perk dies survivors have created a prioity to finish those ideal gens at the fast rate that they naturally do them. Using CI post ruin change is a weak band-aid to address this issue and I predict it will not be the answer to this new meta. I actually predict new ruin will still remain the best possible way to slow down gens but only with certain killers and Doc being one of them :)

The final thing I wanted to address what you would like to see as in the video I did use thanato and nothing came of it. It should really be noted that if we are talking stats and empirical evidence, it has long since been proven that thanato does a terrible job at hindering gen speeds. The core reason I personally use it is that it stacks well with sloppy to slow down HEAL times. Thanato is terrible at slowing down gens. That said, you wanted to see a game with spirit using it and that video did just that. The point of that video is that no killer player would do anything different when it comes to handling that first survivor and then going after the second and because of that, 3 gens got done. There was no room for speculation or doubt when it came to the speed there as it all went down in under 2 mins.

So a final iteration: The point I personally wanted to make is that anytime in any place, gens can be done extremely quickly without toolboxes, without the first survivor doing any looping ( which is very common), without any pallets being dropped (common), and with the second survivor getting peeled off the generator. Imagine the standard events of a chase and the claudette not getting picked up. Imagine it NOT being spirit. Thats a rough set of circumstances man. The 4k wasnt relevant here because you are absolutely right, the goal is to win. Getting 4k doesnt guarantee that anymore as it currently stands. It however, almost sounds like you think the 4k does that though and I would ask if you could clarify if thats what you mean.

Sorry for the wall but you gave me a lot to go over and I appreciate that. I feel like I may have missed something so I hope you continue to respond.

Yep, you downed survivors as fast as possible, and ran two slowdown perks, yet 3 gens popped under 2 minutes. This is the reality now that Ruin got nerfed.

Also to answer your question in the video, the was really no other play you could have done. You basically did what every killer is doing now and capitalizing on the mistakes the survivors made, and camping when it's needed.

Your video is a very good example that maps aren't the only problem, and that gen times are an actual problem that needs to be addressed first.

Ok add in keys and moris too?