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The problem with this suggestion
Comments
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"Or the survivor can get back to doing gens like normal?"
Then there's no DS, is there?
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Yes there is no DS because the survivor isn't being tunneled once they get back to the rat race.
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In that case, why wouldn't the Survivor instead want to actually make the most of their DS by forcing a proc? Is the Killer just going to let the Survivor be in their face and roadblock for a full minute?
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I think he means that survivior that has nothing else to do will be more likely to abuse the invicibility (bodyblocking, flashlighting, stunning with locker/pallet, hiding in a locker, abusing vaults to create noise, trigerring hags traps, disarming trappers traps, other toxic #########.)
Also what about people who get caught in Bear Traps? Its their fault they got caught, DS should get disabled.
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The survivor running around doing nothing for a minute is beneficial to the killer.
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Then that isn't tunneling. That's called getting farmed.
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But they're not doing nothing. They're actively blocking the Killer.
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So right now it's: survivor doesn't heal and rushes gens after being unhooked cause they have a good 45 seconds of immunity, and there's always a locker nearby most generators on a map.
After change: you choose to work on gens while injured giving up your DS and risking being "tunneled" which I call passive (the killer found you again while patrolling his sub objective, not chased you to that generator that you chose to tap deactivating DS). Or you focus on healing yourself up first so you aren't one shottable while on the gen, therefore giving the killer SOME time still where you aren't on the generators. Or you're getting active tunneled by the killer, and therefore DS is still active and you get to use it for its intended usage.
If killers got a perk that disabled all survivors from working on generators for sub 15 seconds there would be huge outrage, yet every survivor can have a full 60 seconds of objective preventing for killers when they aren't even ACTIVE tunneling.
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They can't do that without going down and wasting their team's time.
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Yes, thats why that survivior will do everything to piss the killer off, using and abusing the invicibility as I mentioned above.
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yeah but would they still have DS after getting picked up?
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If they are back on their feet without getting hooked from there (whether it be proccing DS or someone healing them or Unbreakable), then DS still succeeded in wasting the Killer's time.
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They can't do any meaningful objectives, and running around in the killers face isn't all that beneficial for the team, especially since the killer can just slug you and be on their way.
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If someone has to heal them it was an even trade: one effortless hit for a teammate having to come over and pick you up/unbreakable.
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With a teammate heal, it depends on the context. With Unbreakable, I would say the Survivor absolutely comes out ahead.
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Unbreakable is once per game. Using it after getting yourself dropped is a pretty inefficient use of it.
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Not if you are trying to waste the Killer's time. They spent time going after someone they couldn't hook.
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No they didn't go after you. We're talking about bodyblocking while DS is up.
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If they try to down the DS person to stop them from bodyblocking, they went after the DS person and wasted time.
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To be able to bodyblock you need to be right within hitting range of the killer. No chase required for them.
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If this would inlude saves and healing as "things you cant do with DS" then It wouldnt be too bad, but there still would be issues.
For example once I hooked 2 people in basement, trapped it with 1 Bear trap and left, heard the warning and went back, I met the 1st unhooked at the exit, slugged and went in, 2nd guy gets saved, I hit the unhookER once and he runs away. And THEN unhooked no. 2 steps in the trap. I pick up unhooked 1 and get DSed. Well ok he just got unhooked. I pick up the guy no. 2 from the trap and get DSed 2nd time. Wow, multitasking tunneling so toxic. From 2 in the basement to 0 on hook.
So: only 1 DS can be active at the same time AND getting caught in a trap disables DS.
If we add these 2 conditions then I think your idea would be fine
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Naturally you attempt to not actually get hit. Could be a juke, could be Dead Hard, could even be the unhooker's Borrowed Time if you have the opportunity. Each second the Killer spends preoccupied with someone who has a full minute of protection from being picked up is a second the Killer is not spending pressuring anything else.
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You tunneled both of them. They deserve to use DS.
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Right but if you're not within hitting distance you can't hinder the killer with bodyblocking. If you're outside of range it's just baiting which isn't very effective. I get the BT complaint, but waiting until BL 1 guarantees it's gone.
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Get in close so the Killer wants to sidestep you since going for the DS person is just a waste of time, and if they can't, you back off when they try to go for you to just get it over with.
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Yea I guess DH can be used in that scenario.
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My solution to this dilemma is this, make it so that it takes twice as long for it to tick down while slugged.
So if you did get slugged right after being unhooked it means two things
- DS will not deactivate when another survivor is hooked if you are in the dying state.
- DS ticks down at a half the rate while slugged.
These two changes encourages the killer to hook someone else before hooking you, but also doesn't punish them by stopping the DS timer while you are slugged.
To some extent it actually benefits the survivor because if you get slugged right off of hook, it will actually take 2 minutes for DS to fade. However, if the killer downs another survivor and hooks them in less than 60 seconds, you DS deactivates.
I would also personally like to add the rule that DS doesn't work within the Exit Gates. I get it might be tunneling, but if you made it though the entire game and the killer didn't tunnel you at all and you are all he can down in time, its kinda ######### to get Exit Gate DS'ed because you didn't eat it earlier in the game. I can live without this change, but I do think the first two are a good compromise.
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Hmm, I just don't think we're gonna see eye to eye on this. Which is fine. You think it's easy enough to deal with so it's no biggie. I think that after hooking two other survivors, it's not tunneling, so the killer shouldn't have to deal with it.
It's a matter of what we consider reasonable expectations in a video game; to me, keeping track of 4 survivors, what perks they're running, and when they were last hooked gets to be unreasonable. Survivors get a lot of info about killers' powers and perks--knowing what hexes are active, seeing timers for many of the one-hit-down statuses, getting video and audio notifications when a killer powers up--so obviously the devs aren't opposed to lending players a helping hand. Telling the killer that a survivor has DS active would be too much info. You don't want to make it easier for the killer to tunnel a survivor, but at the same time DS shouldn't punish killers who aren't tunneling. A lot can happen in 60 seconds in this game, so 60 seconds of unchecked immunity is stronger than seems reasonable.
That's how I feel. I think our definitions of "reasonable" are different.
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Dude, I loooove when survivors run around in front of me after being unhooked. I'm not going to chase them, so usually they step directly in front of me. Whack, on the ground they go. E-Z. I leave them there and continue doing whatever it was I was doing, whether that was chasing someone else or patrolling gens. Having a survivor on the ground counts as pressure, it's a survivor not doing anything useful for the team; if they need to be picked up, then that's two survivors off gens, otherwise they're wasting their Unbreakable.
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You can't tunnel 2 people because of the definition of tunneling itself...
And the second guy got caught in a trap. Was I supposed to let him go or what
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So having it deactivate upon another survivor hooked would be fine
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Give a killer a reason or reward not to camp and they will
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I'm just speaking from a technical standpoint.
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If someone else is hooked after you are unhooked, you are not being tunneled. You had plenty of time to get away. if you go out of your way to stay in the killers terror radius, it's your own fault.
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From technical standpoint you cant tunnel 2 people. Because tunneling means focusing on 1 player over the other 3, when you 2 people on hook then its 2vs2, so you are free to choose either side, obviously guarding the hooks is the easier option, and this is neither tunneling nor camping, you cant force the killer to do disadvantageous choice for no reason.
And getting caught in a trap immediately "disables" tunneling, because it was the survivior that initiated the situation.
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You can't go far when slugged I'm pretty sure.
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How were you slugged if someone else was chased and hooked? How were you both chased at the same time?
I don't think you realize the holes you leave in most of your points.
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Tunneling is rehooking the same survivor rapidly without them having time to recuperate. That's what happened in this scenario.
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Read op again
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Run unbreakable. Recover, so your teammate can get you up. If you were slugged off the hook and the killer went and chased someone else, you were not tunneled. You were slugged.
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If only every teammate you had was actually competent. This only works in SWF and in select cases in solo queue.
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That's funny...even as a solo survivor main, if I'm slugged I usually (I'd say 80% of the time) am revived fairly quickly. Even if that survivor is being chased, they'll usually take a hit to revive me if I haven't been a dummy and recovered to max.
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The chase will probably not last if you played well and used all the pallets in the area before you got hooked.
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If we would follow this train of thought, then very good killer can tunnel all 4 people at once...
This does not makes sense. What is important is not how quicky was the survivior rehooked, but how many events happened between the unhooking and rehooking.
Rehooking someone after hooking 3 other people is completly different than chasing, downing and rehooking someone immediately after he got rescued.
If tunneling is something that killer is punished for then it must be something he is guilty of, when unhooked survivior walks into a trap, then its the surviviors fault, killer shouldnt be punished for that.
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Killers aren't punished for the survivor running into a trap.
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If you used all the pallets in the area in one chase, in most cases and on most maps, you did not play well. You played like a rank 20.
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They are. Being forced to slug because he MIGHT have DS is punishment. Killer is forced to change his tactics because "anti tunneling" perk is active even though he is not tunneling. And slugging is less desirable than hooking, because it does not increase entity progress.
If you really want to stick to your definition of tunneling then ok, lets call what I call tunneling "toxic tunneling".
DS should be a perk that discourages this "toxic tunneling", "tunneling" multiple people is not toxic or harmful in any way and should not be punished by DS
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Then we have different ideas of what DS should do. I think it should disable all tunneling while you want it to be useless except in niche scenarios versus desperate killers. Good chat mate
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If I remember correctly, the person went for the unhook immediately as I finished hooking the survivor. (Usually, when survivors rescue in the killer's face like that, they have BT, so by the time my attack cooldown finished, the unhooked would be able to body block. That's always the case when I make a hook save against a camping killer, anyway.) Hitting the attack button was basically a knee-jerk reaction. I chased that survivor down pretty quickly, and they were on death hook, so pissing me off and using their DS like that was a stupid move.
Also, the person they unhooked had Breakdown (which I knew), so basically, if the one got unhooked and the unhooker immediately got downed, the sequence of events probably would've ended with slugs getting picked up and everyone escaping or me getting body blocked to the probably-far-away hook and everyone escaping.
Sixty seconds of unchecked immunity is a lot, and it really allows survivors to be dicks against killers who don't tunnel. Which, you'd think they'd be happy the killer's not tunneling; by doing that stuff, they're just telling killers they should tunnel to make sure they eat the DS early.
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I want DS to be an insurance that the killer will NEVER go for the unhooked person while the save happens, and will always prioritise going for the rescurer, similiar to BT, but for a longer time and only against hooking, not also slugging.
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