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[FEEDBACK] "M1 Killers" are too slow

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Comments

  • Unknown
    Unknown
    This content has been removed.
  • Orion
    Orion Member Posts: 21,675

    @Lead_Cenobite said:

    @Orion said:
    I did the math, and if an "M1 Killer" (a Killer whose power does not help them win a chase) is up against a Survivor with Sprint Burst, from just 10 meters away, it takes about 37 seconds to actually put them in the dying state, assuming the Survivor runs in a straight line. With looping, DS, etc., this obviously prolongs the chase by a lot.

    If you guys (developers) are serious about wanting chases to end more quickly, then M1 Killers like the Doctor and the Pig need to move more quickly. A mere 5% increase relative to the Survivors' base speed (i.e.: giving BL I by default to all M1 Killers) would cut chase time to about 29 seconds under the aforementioned conditions, assuming they could still have BL I at 15 seconds.

    To reiterate, these are the conditions:

    • The Survivor has Sprint Burst
    • The distance between the Survivor and the Killer is 10 meters
    • The Survivor runs in a straight line
    • The Killer has 115% movement speed relative to the Survivor (4.6 m/s)

    Besides Sprint Burst, every condition is in the Killer's favor, and it still takes almost 40 seconds to catch the Survivor. This is not OK for Killers whose powers don't actively help them during the chase. They need to be faster, or their powers need to be modified to help them in the chase.

    EDIT: I assumed the Killer is slowed to 50% of their base speed when hitting a Survivor because I don't have the exact number. However, I feel it's a good estimate.
    EDIT #2: I made a small mistake in the calculations that I'll need to correct. Please ignore the thread until I do.
    EDIT #3: Mistake corrected.

    We've known this for a long ass time. What else is new?

    The solution is to give the other 10 Killers some kind of better mobility option.

    Apparently, some people didn't know this. Look at the responses and reactions.

  • Dr_Trauts
    Dr_Trauts Member Posts: 704

    It is ridiculous how long some chases can last, and with the devs nerfing bloodlust soon its just gonna get worse ;(

  • Orion
    Orion Member Posts: 21,675

    @only1biggs said:

    @Orion said:

    @Lead_Cenobite said:

    @Orion said:
    I did the math, and if an "M1 Killer" (a Killer whose power does not help them win a chase) is up against a Survivor with Sprint Burst, from just 10 meters away, it takes about 37 seconds to actually put them in the dying state, assuming the Survivor runs in a straight line. With looping, DS, etc., this obviously prolongs the chase by a lot.

    If you guys (developers) are serious about wanting chases to end more quickly, then M1 Killers like the Doctor and the Pig need to move more quickly. A mere 5% increase relative to the Survivors' base speed (i.e.: giving BL I by default to all M1 Killers) would cut chase time to about 29 seconds under the aforementioned conditions, assuming they could still have BL I at 15 seconds.

    To reiterate, these are the conditions:

    • The Survivor has Sprint Burst
    • The distance between the Survivor and the Killer is 10 meters
    • The Survivor runs in a straight line
    • The Killer has 115% movement speed relative to the Survivor (4.6 m/s)

    Besides Sprint Burst, every condition is in the Killer's favor, and it still takes almost 40 seconds to catch the Survivor. This is not OK for Killers whose powers don't actively help them during the chase. They need to be faster, or their powers need to be modified to help them in the chase.

    EDIT: I assumed the Killer is slowed to 50% of their base speed when hitting a Survivor because I don't have the exact number. However, I feel it's a good estimate.
    EDIT #2: I made a small mistake in the calculations that I'll need to correct. Please ignore the thread until I do.
    EDIT #3: Mistake corrected.

    We've known this for a long ass time. What else is new?

    The solution is to give the other 10 Killers some kind of better mobility option.

    Apparently, some people didn't know this. Look at the responses and reactions.

    smh ...You are so stupid

    It's not all about you, sweetie. There were other people who replied, believe it or not.

  • only1biggs
    only1biggs Member Posts: 1,178

    @White_Owl said:
    You don't consider that maps are not open areas, so survivors must turn sooner or later and the killer, by simply cutting them off, gains a lot of ground.
    Besides, just increasing the speed would just lower a lot the skill ceiling for those killers.

    He didn't consider ANYTHING outside of his nonsense scenario. But..he did the math!

  • Orion
    Orion Member Posts: 21,675

    @only1biggs said:

    @Orion said:

    @only1biggs said:

    @Orion said:

    @Lead_Cenobite said:

    @Orion said:
    I did the math, and if an "M1 Killer" (a Killer whose power does not help them win a chase) is up against a Survivor with Sprint Burst, from just 10 meters away, it takes about 37 seconds to actually put them in the dying state, assuming the Survivor runs in a straight line. With looping, DS, etc., this obviously prolongs the chase by a lot.

    If you guys (developers) are serious about wanting chases to end more quickly, then M1 Killers like the Doctor and the Pig need to move more quickly. A mere 5% increase relative to the Survivors' base speed (i.e.: giving BL I by default to all M1 Killers) would cut chase time to about 29 seconds under the aforementioned conditions, assuming they could still have BL I at 15 seconds.

    To reiterate, these are the conditions:

    • The Survivor has Sprint Burst
    • The distance between the Survivor and the Killer is 10 meters
    • The Survivor runs in a straight line
    • The Killer has 115% movement speed relative to the Survivor (4.6 m/s)

    Besides Sprint Burst, every condition is in the Killer's favor, and it still takes almost 40 seconds to catch the Survivor. This is not OK for Killers whose powers don't actively help them during the chase. They need to be faster, or their powers need to be modified to help them in the chase.

    EDIT: I assumed the Killer is slowed to 50% of their base speed when hitting a Survivor because I don't have the exact number. However, I feel it's a good estimate.
    EDIT #2: I made a small mistake in the calculations that I'll need to correct. Please ignore the thread until I do.
    EDIT #3: Mistake corrected.

    We've known this for a long ass time. What else is new?

    The solution is to give the other 10 Killers some kind of better mobility option.

    Apparently, some people didn't know this. Look at the responses and reactions.

    smh ...You are so stupid

    It's not all about you, sweetie. There were other people who replied, believe it or not.

    lol ...please

    Here's a thought. Stop wasting your time here and learn how to play killer better, instead of coming up with meaningless "experiments" and asking for more speed on M1 killers.

    Literally the first person to comment in this thread was skeptical of its nature, long before you even noticed it. So yeah, there are other people besides you.

  • Orion
    Orion Member Posts: 21,675

    @White_Owl said:
    You don't consider that maps are not open areas, so survivors must turn sooner or later and the killer, by simply cutting them off, gains a lot of ground.
    Besides, just increasing the speed would just lower a lot the skill ceiling for those killers.

    Unless they turn in an open area, you can't cut them off. Survivors often turn around obstacles (as they should, it's dumb to do otherwise) with clear line of sight to the Killer (thanks to their third-person PoV), so "cutting them off" isn't really an option.
    Increasing the speed is just one of the ways they might be buffed. Point is, they need a way to win chases that isn't just playing ring around the rosy for 5 minutes.

  • Unknown
    Unknown
    This content has been removed.
  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    If I understand your thread correctly, if a survivor started a chase against a killer at 10m with your conditions listed in your thread. It would take 40 seconds to down that survivor which is a lot of time just to down one survivor.

    I agree with @Orion because a simple chase that he wrote in his java script would take 40 seconds. If a simple chase is 40 seconds long then who knows how long a complicated chase would be if a survivor knew where every pallet was at and had DS. I don't see any problem with his claim, he's just saying that a simple chase takes too long and if we added more complications... this would take a lot more than 40 seconds which could cause the killer to lose. However I don't think a 5% movement speed increase is needed since it's really pallets that you see. I mean yeah in your script a 5% movement would definitely cut the case down a lot but a survivor won't run in a straight line at high ranks, they will find pallets and jungle gyms. Pallets need to be fixed and after that, we can look at movement speed. Hopefully this was the reply that you was looking for! :)
  • Lockheart
    Lockheart Member Posts: 31

    I'll make it really simple: Straight line.

    1) Lunge.
    2) Survivors don't just go in straight lines. When they change course, you can see from being behind in the chase and take a shorter route.
    3) M1 does not mean just flat out chase. You still juke and use mind games.
    4) M1 killers is not something encourage or buff. Killers should have to try and use skill and abilities, just like survivors. No killer in the game is just meant to be an M1 machine. .And the best killer players know they have to do more than M1 in order to counter looping.

    Don't complain about M1 being under powered. That's just saying that playing bad is under powered.

    As for looping: That is a problem... When the killer allows it. Killers CAN counter loops. All killers in the game have a way to counter it. However, it does still need fixing because the use of loops is easier than the use of counters. Rather than remove loops, just add more ways to counter them. The obvious change to pallet looping is for the entity to break a pallet used more than three times in a short time, same way a window is blocked temporarily if used more than three times in a short time.

  • Lockheart
    Lockheart Member Posts: 31

    PS: You want to end a chase and get a kill in less than thirty seconds? Thirty seconds already means you can down three players back-to-back (IF each chase lead directly into the other) in the same time the fourth survivor can finish their first gen without using items...

  • Orion
    Orion Member Posts: 21,675

    @Lockheart said:
    PS: You want to end a chase and get a kill in less than thirty seconds? Thirty seconds already means you can down three players back-to-back (IF each chase lead directly into the other) in the same time the fourth survivor can finish their first gen without using items...

    No, the devs are the ones who want chases to end in 30 seconds, on average. I'm simply pointing out that even under the best circumstances for the Killer, those who do not have a way to shorten chases are screwed.

  • Lockheart
    Lockheart Member Posts: 31

    PPS: Sorry to post so much at once. Things I just keep forgetting to add.

    OP. You call it an experiment and yet refuse to account for every variable except for those closed within youe tiny confines of a scenario... But an experiment, by definition, is to control specific variables so that you can then test the many other variables that vary. Cause, you know, variables are things that are able to vary... It's in the name. Come on, I know you can do type type and the write write so surely you must understand the words you're using.

    You did not use mathematics to confirm anything. You calculated the travel time between two objects moving at different speeds. Then that suited the role of confirmation bias all too well.

    Just like I did above, I can put your same variables in a different linear of one survivor after another and you have three easy hooks in the time only a single gen is popped.

  • Lockheart
    Lockheart Member Posts: 31

    No, the devs are the ones who want chases to end in 30 seconds, on average. I'm simply pointing out that even under the best circumstances for the Killer, those who do not have a way to shorten chases are screwed.

    Ugh. Seriously, kid, don't quote what the devs say as being anything close to balanced. That is a steep, rocky, painful road to somewhere we all want to avoid. It is a miracle that the devs started listening to their player base when they did.

    5 gens. 90 seconds each. 4 survivors. 30 seconds chase each. Yeah, they don't know balance and never will.

    Plus, those are not the best circumstances. The best circumstances is committing to a gen, getting pulled off, and the killer has a hooked survivor in 0 seconds of chase.

  • Orion
    Orion Member Posts: 21,675

    @Lockheart said:
    I'll make it really simple: Straight line.

    1) Lunge.
    2) Survivors don't just go in straight lines. When they change course, you can see from being behind in the chase and take a shorter route.
    3) M1 does not mean just flat out chase. You still juke and use mind games.
    4) M1 killers is not something encourage or buff. Killers should have to try and use skill and abilities, just like survivors. No killer in the game is just meant to be an M1 machine. .And the best killer players know they have to do more than M1 in order to counter looping.

    Don't complain about M1 being under powered. That's just saying that playing bad is under powered.

    As for looping: That is a problem... When the killer allows it. Killers CAN counter loops. All killers in the game have a way to counter it. However, it does still need fixing because the use of loops is easier than the use of counters. Rather than remove loops, just add more ways to counter them. The obvious change to pallet looping is for the entity to break a pallet used more than three times in a short time, same way a window is blocked temporarily if used more than three times in a short time.

    1) Doesn't matter for the scenario.
    2) They can see your route as you're going for it, since they have third-person view and can rotate their camera anywhere.
    3) Irrelevant when Survivors can see everything you do.
    4) Please tell me how the Wraith can counter looping if he's slowed when using his power, for example.

    Killers who do not have any way to win chases with their power need ways to shorten chases. This is a simple fact, because chases take too long.

    You do not know what pallet looping is. It occurs primarily before the pallet is dropped.

  • Orion
    Orion Member Posts: 21,675

    @Lockheart said:

    No, the devs are the ones who want chases to end in 30 seconds, on average. I'm simply pointing out that even under the best circumstances for the Killer, those who do not have a way to shorten chases are screwed.

    Ugh. Seriously, kid, don't quote what the devs say as being anything close to balanced. That is a steep, rocky, painful road to somewhere we all want to avoid. It is a miracle that the devs started listening to their player base when they did.

    5 gens. 90 seconds each. 4 survivors. 30 seconds chase each. Yeah, they don't know balance and never will.

    Plus, those are not the best circumstances. The best circumstances is committing to a gen, getting pulled off, and the killer has a hooked survivor in 0 seconds of chase.

    Since you started this comment with an intended way to demean my position, I'll just ignore you until you become civil.

  • No_Mither_No_Problem
    No_Mither_No_Problem Member Posts: 1,476

    I agree and disagree with this thread.

    Yes, M1 Killers suck ass. They suck so much ass. Anyone who tries to deny this needs to get out of rank 21. But your scenario just doesn't fit will with me. Yes, it's the worst possible scenario for Survs, but it's extremely oversimplified. Very few areas in DBD maps are actually completely open with the obvious exception of Coldwind maps. Most maps are filled to the brim with loops and vaults and pallets and walls. Now, normally one would think this would only serve as a disadvantage to the Killer, and that is completely justified. However, many of these loops are classified as "unsafe".

    It takes a lot of skill. Skill I personally don't have. But I see it in action all the time. Only a few loops in the game are literally "unmindgameable". Good M1 Killers can mindgame many loops, shortening the chase by an absolute unit. A good example of this is Twitch streamer ArdethaBite, or as he goes by his nickname, Mindgame Marvin. Ardetha is an absolute mindgame champion. Hell, he sometimes plays Perkless Freddy at high ranks for the sake of memes, and he doesn't do amazing, but he doesn't do terrible either. Why? Because he can mindgame chases into nothing.

    Good mindgames are very strong. That fact is indisputable. Add onto that that only the top 1% of Survivors aren't actually braindead, and M1 Killers who are good enough at their Killer can actually use a substantial deal of loops to their advantage. Without a ridiculous infinite, a realisitc DBD chase scenario actually has great potential to be shorter than the one you described.

    However, I acknowledge your point as sound and backed. I don't actually wish to argue against it. Instead, I would like to bring up a different point: The issue is not that the chases are too long. The issue is that gen times are too short. This affects ALL Killers, not just M1 Killers. Let's bring up Mindgame Marvin again. He is an outspoken Shape main, but he very rarely plays Shape at high ranks, only Nurse. Yes, it is because of chases to a certain extent, but he has stated on multiple occasions that the main reason he doesn't play Shape at rank 1 is because by the time he gets out of EW1, at least 1 gen has popped. EW1 Myers is so slow and so terrible at chases that he can't even be considered an M1 Killer. You NEED to pop EW2 ASAP, but no matter how fast you do, it isn't fast enough to counter genrushing. Even if you're a mindgame god, the other three Survs are doing gens faster than a 12-year-old kid on CoD claims to do someone's mom. It's simply too fast, to the point where Ruin is basically a placebo at high ranks (even ignoring the possibility it gets insta-cleansed). Hell, even godlike Nurses who can get a chase done in 6 seconds will still fall victim to genrush if that chase hadn't been initiated immediately after the trial started.

    So I think the best way to solve the chase issue is not to nerf chases, but to nerf gens. But the thing is, that would suck so much ass for Survivors. Doing gens is boring. You literally just hold M1 for 80 seconds. The chase is the fun part. So I believe the best option is to add a new objective. And I believe I may just have an idea.

    In addition to all the gens on a map, there are four power relay pylons throughout the area. Once all generators are activated, each Survivor is briefly shown the aura of the pylon closest to them. In order to power the gates, they must connect between 5 gens to the pylons. They do this by connecting a wire spool to the gens and dragging the spool to a pylon.

    -Connecting the spool to the gen takes 15 seconds and progress is reset if interrupted.
    -If Survivors crouch or run while dragging a spool to a pylon, they will audibly drop the spool, which then must be picked back up and continued from where it was left off.
    -Connecting a wire to a pylon takes 30 seconds and can be co-opped by one additional Survivor. This is also reset if interrupted.
    -Once five gens have been connected to a pylon, the gates will be eligible to open.

    I believe this will give the Killer ample more time before the endgame whilst not making the objectives even more boring and static for Survs than they already are.

  • theArashi
    theArashi Member Posts: 998

    Wait... so how does devs "chases should take up to 40 seconds" go? Do they really expect survivors to just run forward to collide with random ######### to slow down?

  • CoffengMin
    CoffengMin Member Posts: 862

    not until stealth is viable even then... this would make 3 gen strats meta af especially with doctor