[FEEDBACK] "M1 Killers" are too slow
I did the math, and if an "M1 Killer" (a Killer whose power does not help them win a chase) is up against a Survivor with Sprint Burst, from just 10 meters away, it takes about 37 seconds to actually put them in the dying state, assuming the Survivor runs in a straight line. With looping, DS, etc., this obviously prolongs the chase by a lot.
If you guys (developers) are serious about wanting chases to end more quickly, then M1 Killers like the Doctor and the Pig need to move more quickly. A mere 5% increase relative to the Survivors' base speed (i.e.: giving BL I by default to all M1 Killers) would cut chase time to about 29 seconds under the aforementioned conditions, assuming they could still have BL I at 15 seconds.
To reiterate, these are the conditions:
- The Survivor has Sprint Burst
- The distance between the Survivor and the Killer is 10 meters
- The Survivor runs in a straight line
- The Killer has 115% movement speed relative to the Survivor (4.6 m/s)
Besides Sprint Burst, every condition is in the Killer's favor, and it still takes almost 40 seconds to catch the Survivor. This is not OK for Killers whose powers don't actively help them during the chase. They need to be faster, or their powers need to be modified to help them in the chase.
EDIT: I assumed the Killer is slowed to 50% of their base speed when hitting a Survivor because I don't have the exact number. However, I feel it's a good estimate.
EDIT #2: I made a small mistake in the calculations that I'll need to correct. Please ignore the thread until I do.
EDIT #3: Mistake corrected.
Comments
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They are not too slow, the issue is looping.
2 -
@Master said:
They are not too slow, the issue is looping.They are, and I will prove it mathematically. Later this afternoon I'll fix the program I wrote to calculate the time it takes to put a Survivor in the dying state assuming the Survivor runs in a straight line. Looping is a "problem multiplier", but it's not even the biggest issue.
6 -
I corrected the mistake. Turns out, the difference between having BL I and not having it is less than 3 seconds under these conditions.
4 -
Looping only adds to the problem. In my example, the Killer is just 10 meters away, yet it takes about 40 seconds to actually catch a Survivor running in a straight line.
Killers whose abilities don't allow them to end chases quickly need to be faster, or their abilities need to help them win chases. It's that simple.
4 -
Asking for built in bloodlust 1 now? This is getting ridiculous.
Give it to hag, sure. EW1 on Myers, great.
Other than that, the speed at which m1 killers move is fine.
2 -
@only1biggs said:
Asking for built in bloodlust 1 now? This is getting ridiculous.Give it to hag, sure. EW1 on Myers, great.
Other than that, the speed at which m1 killers move is fine.
I mathematically proved you wrong, but sure, pretend my position is ridiculous.
6 -
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
Asking for built in bloodlust 1 now? This is getting ridiculous.Give it to hag, sure. EW1 on Myers, great.
Other than that, the speed at which m1 killers move is fine.
I mathematically proved you wrong, but sure, pretend my position is ridiculous.
Proved me wrong? How so? What did you prove by calculating that survivors will run in a straight line with sprint burst and start 10m away from the killer? So what?
2 -
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
Asking for built in bloodlust 1 now? This is getting ridiculous.Give it to hag, sure. EW1 on Myers, great.
Other than that, the speed at which m1 killers move is fine.
I mathematically proved you wrong, but sure, pretend my position is ridiculous.
Proved me wrong? How so? What did you prove by calculating that survivors will run in a straight line with sprint burst and start 10m away from the killer? So what?
I proved that even under the worst conditions for Survivors, chases still take longer than the devs would want. Looping just adds to the problem.
Under the scenario I created, those 40 seconds would still allow 3 generators to be repaired to 50%, at the very least, and that's not taking into account the "finding" portion of the game, which is not taken into account in my calculations.5 -
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
Asking for built in bloodlust 1 now? This is getting ridiculous.Give it to hag, sure. EW1 on Myers, great.
Other than that, the speed at which m1 killers move is fine.
I mathematically proved you wrong, but sure, pretend my position is ridiculous.
Proved me wrong? How so? What did you prove by calculating that survivors will run in a straight line with sprint burst and start 10m away from the killer? So what?
I proved that even under the worst conditions for Survivors, chases still take longer than the devs would want. Looping just adds to the problem.
Under the scenario I created, those 40 seconds would still allow 3 generators to be repaired to 50%, at the very least, and that's not taking into account the "finding" portion of the game, which is not taken into account in my calculations.Okay? Every game is the same then? Did you account for perks like Ruin, Thana et al? Did you account for the multitude of other variables in your little equation?
3 -
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
Asking for built in bloodlust 1 now? This is getting ridiculous.Give it to hag, sure. EW1 on Myers, great.
Other than that, the speed at which m1 killers move is fine.
I mathematically proved you wrong, but sure, pretend my position is ridiculous.
Proved me wrong? How so? What did you prove by calculating that survivors will run in a straight line with sprint burst and start 10m away from the killer? So what?
I proved that even under the worst conditions for Survivors, chases still take longer than the devs would want. Looping just adds to the problem.
Under the scenario I created, those 40 seconds would still allow 3 generators to be repaired to 50%, at the very least, and that's not taking into account the "finding" portion of the game, which is not taken into account in my calculations.Okay? Every game is the same then? Did you account for perks like Ruin, Thana et al? Did you account for the multitude of other variables in your little equation?
No, I simply accounted for the chases - y'know, the thing the devs want to make shorter - and made it the best possible scenario for a Killer chasing a Survivor (outside of Sprint Burst, because it's meta).
4 -
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
Asking for built in bloodlust 1 now? This is getting ridiculous.Give it to hag, sure. EW1 on Myers, great.
Other than that, the speed at which m1 killers move is fine.
I mathematically proved you wrong, but sure, pretend my position is ridiculous.
Proved me wrong? How so? What did you prove by calculating that survivors will run in a straight line with sprint burst and start 10m away from the killer? So what?
I proved that even under the worst conditions for Survivors, chases still take longer than the devs would want. Looping just adds to the problem.
Under the scenario I created, those 40 seconds would still allow 3 generators to be repaired to 50%, at the very least, and that's not taking into account the "finding" portion of the game, which is not taken into account in my calculations.Okay? Every game is the same then? Did you account for perks like Ruin, Thana et al? Did you account for the multitude of other variables in your little equation?
No, I simply accounted for the chases - y'know, the thing the devs want to make shorter - and made it the best possible scenario for a Killer chasing a Survivor (outside of Sprint Burst, because it's meta).
Okay? So each chase is the same? Each survivor and killer are the same? Ruin isn't Meta? Whispers isn't Meta? Each map is the same? Each tile is the same?
3 -
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
Asking for built in bloodlust 1 now? This is getting ridiculous.Give it to hag, sure. EW1 on Myers, great.
Other than that, the speed at which m1 killers move is fine.
I mathematically proved you wrong, but sure, pretend my position is ridiculous.
Proved me wrong? How so? What did you prove by calculating that survivors will run in a straight line with sprint burst and start 10m away from the killer? So what?
I proved that even under the worst conditions for Survivors, chases still take longer than the devs would want. Looping just adds to the problem.
Under the scenario I created, those 40 seconds would still allow 3 generators to be repaired to 50%, at the very least, and that's not taking into account the "finding" portion of the game, which is not taken into account in my calculations.Okay? Every game is the same then? Did you account for perks like Ruin, Thana et al? Did you account for the multitude of other variables in your little equation?
No, I simply accounted for the chases - y'know, the thing the devs want to make shorter - and made it the best possible scenario for a Killer chasing a Survivor (outside of Sprint Burst, because it's meta).
Okay? So each chase is the same? Each survivor and killer are the same? Ruin isn't Meta? Whispers isn't Meta? Each map is the same? Each tile is the same?
I'm going to assume you didn't read my OP, since you're asking about things that have nothing to do with a chase nor my scenario.
4 -
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
Asking for built in bloodlust 1 now? This is getting ridiculous.Give it to hag, sure. EW1 on Myers, great.
Other than that, the speed at which m1 killers move is fine.
I mathematically proved you wrong, but sure, pretend my position is ridiculous.
Proved me wrong? How so? What did you prove by calculating that survivors will run in a straight line with sprint burst and start 10m away from the killer? So what?
I proved that even under the worst conditions for Survivors, chases still take longer than the devs would want. Looping just adds to the problem.
Under the scenario I created, those 40 seconds would still allow 3 generators to be repaired to 50%, at the very least, and that's not taking into account the "finding" portion of the game, which is not taken into account in my calculations.Okay? Every game is the same then? Did you account for perks like Ruin, Thana et al? Did you account for the multitude of other variables in your little equation?
No, I simply accounted for the chases - y'know, the thing the devs want to make shorter - and made it the best possible scenario for a Killer chasing a Survivor (outside of Sprint Burst, because it's meta).
Okay? So each chase is the same? Each survivor and killer are the same? Ruin isn't Meta? Whispers isn't Meta? Each map is the same? Each tile is the same?
I'm going to assume you didn't read my OP, since you're asking about things that have nothing to do with a chase nor my scenario.
And I'll presume you have no idea what you're doing.
2 -
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
Asking for built in bloodlust 1 now? This is getting ridiculous.Give it to hag, sure. EW1 on Myers, great.
Other than that, the speed at which m1 killers move is fine.
I mathematically proved you wrong, but sure, pretend my position is ridiculous.
Proved me wrong? How so? What did you prove by calculating that survivors will run in a straight line with sprint burst and start 10m away from the killer? So what?
I proved that even under the worst conditions for Survivors, chases still take longer than the devs would want. Looping just adds to the problem.
Under the scenario I created, those 40 seconds would still allow 3 generators to be repaired to 50%, at the very least, and that's not taking into account the "finding" portion of the game, which is not taken into account in my calculations.Okay? Every game is the same then? Did you account for perks like Ruin, Thana et al? Did you account for the multitude of other variables in your little equation?
No, I simply accounted for the chases - y'know, the thing the devs want to make shorter - and made it the best possible scenario for a Killer chasing a Survivor (outside of Sprint Burst, because it's meta).
Okay? So each chase is the same? Each survivor and killer are the same? Ruin isn't Meta? Whispers isn't Meta? Each map is the same? Each tile is the same?
I'm going to assume you didn't read my OP, since you're asking about things that have nothing to do with a chase nor my scenario.
And I'll assume you have no idea what you're doing.
I'm showing that a chase that heavily favors the Killer is still too long. You're complaining about the time it takes to find a Survivor, generator progress, and non-M1 Killers.
4 -
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
Asking for built in bloodlust 1 now? This is getting ridiculous.Give it to hag, sure. EW1 on Myers, great.
Other than that, the speed at which m1 killers move is fine.
I mathematically proved you wrong, but sure, pretend my position is ridiculous.
Proved me wrong? How so? What did you prove by calculating that survivors will run in a straight line with sprint burst and start 10m away from the killer? So what?
I proved that even under the worst conditions for Survivors, chases still take longer than the devs would want. Looping just adds to the problem.
Under the scenario I created, those 40 seconds would still allow 3 generators to be repaired to 50%, at the very least, and that's not taking into account the "finding" portion of the game, which is not taken into account in my calculations.Okay? Every game is the same then? Did you account for perks like Ruin, Thana et al? Did you account for the multitude of other variables in your little equation?
No, I simply accounted for the chases - y'know, the thing the devs want to make shorter - and made it the best possible scenario for a Killer chasing a Survivor (outside of Sprint Burst, because it's meta).
Okay? So each chase is the same? Each survivor and killer are the same? Ruin isn't Meta? Whispers isn't Meta? Each map is the same? Each tile is the same?
I'm going to assume you didn't read my OP, since you're asking about things that have nothing to do with a chase nor my scenario.
And I'll assume you have no idea what you're doing.
I'm showing that a chase that heavily favors the Killer is still too long. You're complaining about the time it takes to find a Survivor, generator progress, and non-M1 Killers.
You said - "Under the scenario I created, those 40 seconds would still allow 3 generators to be repaired to 50%, at the very least, and that's not taking into account the "finding" portion of the game, which is not taken into account in my calculations."
There are so many variables that your outcomes are incorrect. So, is every chase the same? Is every killer player the same? Is every survivor the same? Why mention possible gen % completion or the time to find a survivor?
You're saying that it takes too long to down a survivor with M1 killers, yes? This is the point of your "experiment"?
*oh, I'm also not complaining about anything
3 -
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
Asking for built in bloodlust 1 now? This is getting ridiculous.Give it to hag, sure. EW1 on Myers, great.
Other than that, the speed at which m1 killers move is fine.
I mathematically proved you wrong, but sure, pretend my position is ridiculous.
Proved me wrong? How so? What did you prove by calculating that survivors will run in a straight line with sprint burst and start 10m away from the killer? So what?
I proved that even under the worst conditions for Survivors, chases still take longer than the devs would want. Looping just adds to the problem.
Under the scenario I created, those 40 seconds would still allow 3 generators to be repaired to 50%, at the very least, and that's not taking into account the "finding" portion of the game, which is not taken into account in my calculations.Okay? Every game is the same then? Did you account for perks like Ruin, Thana et al? Did you account for the multitude of other variables in your little equation?
You are right, Orion forgot some important variables like Ruin, it's a mandatory perk like SB, but it does not have any impact on the duration of chases, only on the won time for other survivors, so if we are talking about chases being overall too long, then we can safely ignore it (Ruin gets found after 2 sec every second game anyway), if we want to talk about the variables he actually left out that would be: looping, juking, vaulting, 360, Quick&Quiet, Urban Evasion on the survivor side and BS, Enduring, Bamboozle, FIre up, Beast of Prey, Save the Best for Last, PWYF and NOED on the Killer side. It should be noted that some of these perks (Q&Q, UE, Beast of Prey) are only helpful for mind games, while others (Fire up, Save the Best for Last, PWYF, NOED) have certain requierements that must be met.
When putting all of these things together, well yeah it's impossible to say "a chase lasts for X seconds", thats the reason Orion did not take them into account. His/her whole point is that even in the most simple and probably one of the worst situations the Survivor can just run away in a straight line costing the Killer too much time (this isn't even taking into account hooking the survivor (DS, Bodyblocking)).
Even if we add the things above, it is quite obvious that looping, juking, vaulting and 360 prolongs the chase by a lot and even if the Killer had all the perks mentioned above (which isn't possible, since he only has 4 slots) the Survivor would easily have the edge, because there are so many pallets and windows on the map (and the Survivor does not need a perk to loop, juke, vault or 360), so by leaving these variables out the situation of the Killer improved by a lot.
So we have a situation, where we ignored several strong tools on the Survivor side and have probably one of the best starting positions for the Killer (10m away from a Survivor) and still the Survivor would cost the Killer more than half a minute!
Quite ridiculous...I did not do the math on this one, so I'm just gonna trust Orion on the numbers until someone proves him/her wrong and if I forgot any perks or made some mistakes, I would be glad to get notified and correct them.
1 -
Every chase is not the same, but I assumed the best possible chase for a Killer with the exception of SB. I don't get why you're so focused on making the chase more complicated when the purpose of the "experiment" is to show that even under ideal circumstances, the chase is still too long. Adding more variables would needlessly complicate my calculations.
No, not every Survivor is the same. I assumed SB because it's meta, that's all.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. It's literally in the title and in the OP you claim to have read. I only mentioned giving them a 5% speed boost as an example of a buff for M1 Killers that would help them win chases, but you apparently missed the fact that I also mentioned modifying their powers so that they can help them win chases.
4 -
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
Asking for built in bloodlust 1 now? This is getting ridiculous.Give it to hag, sure. EW1 on Myers, great.
Other than that, the speed at which m1 killers move is fine.
I mathematically proved you wrong, but sure, pretend my position is ridiculous.
Proved me wrong? How so? What did you prove by calculating that survivors will run in a straight line with sprint burst and start 10m away from the killer? So what?
I proved that even under the worst conditions for Survivors, chases still take longer than the devs would want. Looping just adds to the problem.
Under the scenario I created, those 40 seconds would still allow 3 generators to be repaired to 50%, at the very least, and that's not taking into account the "finding" portion of the game, which is not taken into account in my calculations.Okay? Every game is the same then? Did you account for perks like Ruin, Thana et al? Did you account for the multitude of other variables in your little equation?
You are right, Orion forgot some important variables like Ruin, it's a mandatory perk like SB, but it does not have any impact on the duration of chases, only on the won time for other survivors, so if we are talking about chases being overall too long, then we can safely ignore it (Ruin gets found after 2 sec every second game anyway), if we want to talk about the variables he actually left out that would be: looping, juking, vaulting, 360, Quick&Quiet, Urban Evasion on the survivor side and BS, Enduring, Bamboozle, FIre up, Beast of Prey, Save the Best for Last, PWYF and NOED on the Killer side. It should be noted that some of these perks (Q&Q, UE, Beast of Prey) are only helpful for mind games, while others (Fire up, Save the Best for Last, PWYF, NOED) have certain requierements that must be met.
When putting all of these things together, well yeah it's impossible to say "a chase lasts for X seconds", thats the reason Orion did not take them into account. His/her whole point is that even in the most simple and probably one of the worst situations the Survivor can just run away in a straight line costing the Killer too much time (this isn't even taking into account hooking the survivor (DS, Bodyblocking)).
Even if we add the things above, it is quite obvious that looping, juking, vaulting and 360 prolongs the chase by a lot and even if the Killer had all the perks mentioned above (which isn't possible, since he only has 4 slots) the Survivor would easily have the edge, because there are so many pallets and windows on the map (and the Survivor does not need a perk to loop, juke, vault or 360), so by leaving these variables out the situation of the Killer improved by a lot.
So we have a situation, where we ignored several strong tools on the Survivor side and have probably one of the best starting positions for the Killer (10m away from a Survivor) and still the Survivor would cost the Killer more than half a minute!
Quite ridiculous...I did not do the math on this one, so I'm just gonna trust Orion on the numbers until someone proves him/her wrong and if I forgot any perks or made some mistakes, I would be glad to get notified and correct them.
Thank you, finally someone who actually read the OP.
I too would like someone to verify my math. I wrote a program in Java for the calculations, and I can explain its functionality, but second-hand verification is always best.
4 -
@Orion Adding more variables? There ARE more variables in EVERY game.
No survivor is the same in that there are differing skill levels across ALL ranks. Many will get downed and hooked before a gen is popped or even within 20 seconds for example. Many will be chased by a killer for longer than required etc etc.
Killers do not need to be faster. I would however, as I stated earlier, like to see your suggestion implemented for Hag and Myers at EW1, but that's it.
*edit - I did read your OP. Stop saying otherwise please.
@Feyard We have this situation because Orion created it. As I have said, all killer players and all survivor players are different and will get downed quicker or slower depending on the MANY variables in game and their skill level. I haven't doubted his math, I'm just pointing out how the experiment is flawed.
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@only1biggs said:
@Orion Adding more variables? There ARE more variables in EVERY game.No survivor is the same in that there are differing skill levels across ALL ranks. Many will get downed and hooked before a gen is popped or even within 20 seconds for example. Many will be chased by a killer for longer than required etc etc.
Killers do not need to be faster. I would however, as I stated earlier, like to see your suggestion implemented for Hag and Myers at EW1, but that's it.
@Feyard We have this situation because Orion created it. As I have said, all killer players and all survivor players are different and will get downed quicker or slower depending on the MANY variables in game and their skill level. I haven't doubted his math, I'm just pointing out how the experiment is flawed.
Dude, the Survivor is running in a straight line in my example. There's no skill involved in that. You're pointing out completely irrelevant variables for the purpose of my calculations. I showed my work, maybe it's time to show yours and how your BS is relevant for my calculations.
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@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion Adding more variables? There ARE more variables in EVERY game.No survivor is the same in that there are differing skill levels across ALL ranks. Many will get downed and hooked before a gen is popped or even within 20 seconds for example. Many will be chased by a killer for longer than required etc etc.
Killers do not need to be faster. I would however, as I stated earlier, like to see your suggestion implemented for Hag and Myers at EW1, but that's it.
@Feyard We have this situation because Orion created it. As I have said, all killer players and all survivor players are different and will get downed quicker or slower depending on the MANY variables in game and their skill level. I haven't doubted his math, I'm just pointing out how the experiment is flawed.
Dude, the Survivor is running in a straight line in my example. There's no skill involved in that. You're pointing out completely irrelevant variables for the purpose of my calculations. I showed my work, maybe it's time to show yours and how your BS is relevant for my calculations.
Dude, what games do you play where your scenario is a reality?
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@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion Adding more variables? There ARE more variables in EVERY game.No survivor is the same in that there are differing skill levels across ALL ranks. Many will get downed and hooked before a gen is popped or even within 20 seconds for example. Many will be chased by a killer for longer than required etc etc.
Killers do not need to be faster. I would however, as I stated earlier, like to see your suggestion implemented for Hag and Myers at EW1, but that's it.
@Feyard We have this situation because Orion created it. As I have said, all killer players and all survivor players are different and will get downed quicker or slower depending on the MANY variables in game and their skill level. I haven't doubted his math, I'm just pointing out how the experiment is flawed.
Dude, the Survivor is running in a straight line in my example. There's no skill involved in that. You're pointing out completely irrelevant variables for the purpose of my calculations. I showed my work, maybe it's time to show yours and how your BS is relevant for my calculations.
Dude, what games do you play where your scenario is a reality?
None. That's the whole point. It's the worst possible scenario for the Survivor, and the chase is still far too long. If the worst possible scenario for one side is still in their favor, then there's a big problem with that side.
Either you didn't read or you didn't understand. Regardless, I'm done trying to explain basic logic to you.
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@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion Adding more variables? There ARE more variables in EVERY game.No survivor is the same in that there are differing skill levels across ALL ranks. Many will get downed and hooked before a gen is popped or even within 20 seconds for example. Many will be chased by a killer for longer than required etc etc.
Killers do not need to be faster. I would however, as I stated earlier, like to see your suggestion implemented for Hag and Myers at EW1, but that's it.
@Feyard We have this situation because Orion created it. As I have said, all killer players and all survivor players are different and will get downed quicker or slower depending on the MANY variables in game and their skill level. I haven't doubted his math, I'm just pointing out how the experiment is flawed.
Dude, the Survivor is running in a straight line in my example. There's no skill involved in that. You're pointing out completely irrelevant variables for the purpose of my calculations. I showed my work, maybe it's time to show yours and how your BS is relevant for my calculations.
Dude, what games do you play where your scenario is a reality?
None. That's the whole point. It's the worst possible scenario for the Survivor, and the chase is still far too long.
Either you didn't read or you didn't understand. Regardless, I'm done trying to explain basic logic to you.
Not sure why you're being so salty.
So it takes too long to down a survivor, because of the gen % completed in that time. Okay? So, in a real game, are all survivors on the same gen, on different gens, doing hooks or totems? Because in your example, they are all on a gen. Which is not realistic.
You always do this...you get pissy and childish and say something passive aggressive like, "I'm done trying to explain basic logic"... How about you be an adult and have a conversation? It's a back and forth there champ. Relax
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@only1biggs said:
@Orion Adding more variables? There ARE more variables in EVERY game.No survivor is the same in that there are differing skill levels across ALL ranks. Many will get downed and hooked before a gen is popped or even within 20 seconds for example. Many will be chased by a killer for longer than required etc etc.
Killers do not need to be faster. I would however, as I stated earlier, like to see your suggestion implemented for Hag and Myers at EW1, but that's it.
*edit - I did read your OP. Stop saying otherwise please.
@Feyard We have this situation because Orion created it. As I have said, all killer players and all survivor players are different and will get downed quicker or slower depending on the MANY variables in game and their skill level. I haven't doubted his math, I'm just pointing out how the experiment is flawed.
Just a quick question: Since when did "running in straight line" and "downing a Survivor running in a straight line" take any skill? I mean if you are talking about people playing for their first time, yeah okay, but I'm pretty sure that is not the case.
In a situation with literally nothing on the map I'm pretty sure every survivor, who knows how basic math works, would run in a straight line since it's the best way to gain a distance, same could be said about a Killer.So I ask you: What is the point you want to make? As far as I can see you only try to add other variables to complicate the situation and ignore the actual problem.
2 -
@Feyard can explain it to you if he feels like it. Maybe then you'll get it.
I tried having a conversation. I explained why you're needlessly complicating the scenario to the detriment of the scenario. You insist that inserting things such as Ruin into the scenario is necessary when discussing the time it takes to put a single Survivor in the dying state, but you've yet to explain why. Call me childish if you'd like, but I'm done trying to explain this to you.
3 -
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion Adding more variables? There ARE more variables in EVERY game.No survivor is the same in that there are differing skill levels across ALL ranks. Many will get downed and hooked before a gen is popped or even within 20 seconds for example. Many will be chased by a killer for longer than required etc etc.
Killers do not need to be faster. I would however, as I stated earlier, like to see your suggestion implemented for Hag and Myers at EW1, but that's it.
*edit - I did read your OP. Stop saying otherwise please.
@Feyard We have this situation because Orion created it. As I have said, all killer players and all survivor players are different and will get downed quicker or slower depending on the MANY variables in game and their skill level. I haven't doubted his math, I'm just pointing out how the experiment is flawed.
Just a quick question: Since when did "running in straight line" and "downing a Survivor running in a straight line" take any skill? I mean if you are talking about people playing for their first time, yeah okay, but I'm pretty sure that is not the case.
In a situation with literally nothing on the map I'm pretty sure every survivor, who knows how basic math works, would run in a straight line since it's the best way to gain a distance, same could be said about a Killer.So I ask you: What is the point you want to make? As far as I can see you only try to add other variables to complicate the situation and ignore the actual problem.
My point is that Orions point is not an actual game.
2 -
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion Adding more variables? There ARE more variables in EVERY game.No survivor is the same in that there are differing skill levels across ALL ranks. Many will get downed and hooked before a gen is popped or even within 20 seconds for example. Many will be chased by a killer for longer than required etc etc.
Killers do not need to be faster. I would however, as I stated earlier, like to see your suggestion implemented for Hag and Myers at EW1, but that's it.
*edit - I did read your OP. Stop saying otherwise please.
@Feyard We have this situation because Orion created it. As I have said, all killer players and all survivor players are different and will get downed quicker or slower depending on the MANY variables in game and their skill level. I haven't doubted his math, I'm just pointing out how the experiment is flawed.
Just a quick question: Since when did "running in straight line" and "downing a Survivor running in a straight line" take any skill? I mean if you are talking about people playing for their first time, yeah okay, but I'm pretty sure that is not the case.
In a situation with literally nothing on the map I'm pretty sure every survivor, who knows how basic math works, would run in a straight line since it's the best way to gain a distance, same could be said about a Killer.So I ask you: What is the point you want to make? As far as I can see you only try to add other variables to complicate the situation and ignore the actual problem.
My point is that Orions point is not an actual game.
You're right. A real game is more Survivor-sided. So how does that matter for my scenario?
5 -
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion Adding more variables? There ARE more variables in EVERY game.No survivor is the same in that there are differing skill levels across ALL ranks. Many will get downed and hooked before a gen is popped or even within 20 seconds for example. Many will be chased by a killer for longer than required etc etc.
Killers do not need to be faster. I would however, as I stated earlier, like to see your suggestion implemented for Hag and Myers at EW1, but that's it.
*edit - I did read your OP. Stop saying otherwise please.
@Feyard We have this situation because Orion created it. As I have said, all killer players and all survivor players are different and will get downed quicker or slower depending on the MANY variables in game and their skill level. I haven't doubted his math, I'm just pointing out how the experiment is flawed.
Just a quick question: Since when did "running in straight line" and "downing a Survivor running in a straight line" take any skill? I mean if you are talking about people playing for their first time, yeah okay, but I'm pretty sure that is not the case.
In a situation with literally nothing on the map I'm pretty sure every survivor, who knows how basic math works, would run in a straight line since it's the best way to gain a distance, same could be said about a Killer.So I ask you: What is the point you want to make? As far as I can see you only try to add other variables to complicate the situation and ignore the actual problem.
My point is that Orions point is not an actual game.
You're right. A real game is more Survivor-sided. So how does that matter for my scenario?
I know.
For you maybe.
It renders your scenario irrelevant.
1 -
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion Adding more variables? There ARE more variables in EVERY game.No survivor is the same in that there are differing skill levels across ALL ranks. Many will get downed and hooked before a gen is popped or even within 20 seconds for example. Many will be chased by a killer for longer than required etc etc.
Killers do not need to be faster. I would however, as I stated earlier, like to see your suggestion implemented for Hag and Myers at EW1, but that's it.
*edit - I did read your OP. Stop saying otherwise please.
@Feyard We have this situation because Orion created it. As I have said, all killer players and all survivor players are different and will get downed quicker or slower depending on the MANY variables in game and their skill level. I haven't doubted his math, I'm just pointing out how the experiment is flawed.
Just a quick question: Since when did "running in straight line" and "downing a Survivor running in a straight line" take any skill? I mean if you are talking about people playing for their first time, yeah okay, but I'm pretty sure that is not the case.
In a situation with literally nothing on the map I'm pretty sure every survivor, who knows how basic math works, would run in a straight line since it's the best way to gain a distance, same could be said about a Killer.So I ask you: What is the point you want to make? As far as I can see you only try to add other variables to complicate the situation and ignore the actual problem.
My point is that Orions point is not an actual game.
You're right. A real game is more Survivor-sided. So how does that matter for my scenario?
I know.
For you maybe.
It renders your scenario irrelevant.
@Feyard take it from here. I'm gonna watch some cartoons and wait for an intelligent person to reply with their complaints.
3 -
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Orion Adding more variables? There ARE more variables in EVERY game.No survivor is the same in that there are differing skill levels across ALL ranks. Many will get downed and hooked before a gen is popped or even within 20 seconds for example. Many will be chased by a killer for longer than required etc etc.
Killers do not need to be faster. I would however, as I stated earlier, like to see your suggestion implemented for Hag and Myers at EW1, but that's it.
*edit - I did read your OP. Stop saying otherwise please.
@Feyard We have this situation because Orion created it. As I have said, all killer players and all survivor players are different and will get downed quicker or slower depending on the MANY variables in game and their skill level. I haven't doubted his math, I'm just pointing out how the experiment is flawed.
Just a quick question: Since when did "running in straight line" and "downing a Survivor running in a straight line" take any skill? I mean if you are talking about people playing for their first time, yeah okay, but I'm pretty sure that is not the case.
In a situation with literally nothing on the map I'm pretty sure every survivor, who knows how basic math works, would run in a straight line since it's the best way to gain a distance, same could be said about a Killer.So I ask you: What is the point you want to make? As far as I can see you only try to add other variables to complicate the situation and ignore the actual problem.
My point is that Orions point is not an actual game.
You're right. A real game is more Survivor-sided. So how does that matter for my scenario?
I know.
For you maybe.
It renders your scenario irrelevant.
@Feyard take it from here. I'm gonna watch some cartoons and wait for an intelligent person to reply with their complaints.
So passive aggressive and pathetic LOL
Good luck sunshine, you two enjoy each other
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duplictae, pls delete
Post edited by Feyard on0 -
Wow, my comment just deleted itself, sorry give me some time, I'll try to rewrite it (I hate this bug...)
Edit: I managed to retrieve it with the back button of my browser #########.
0 -
duplicate, pls delete
Post edited by Feyard on0 -
Alright, I'm a bit confused. It is pretty much clear that Orion's example isn't an actual game, but a simplified version of a mechanic inside of that game. His/her point is that that mechanic is flawed, showing that the game has a major flaw, since the mentioned mechanic is one of the core concepts of the game.
So your point just validates what Orion is trying to do, I will say it again, just in case, Orion's whole point is that even in the most simple and probably one of the worst situations the Survivor can just run away in a straight line costing the Killer too much time, ofc this situation does not exist, since there are many many tools (mainly on the Survivor side, see above) that are left out, but even without them, you can do all this, meaning that (in theory) in the actual game you could just run in a straight line and cost the Killer a handful of time. Most survivors do not do this, since there are a lot of better options available, but if they wanted, they could do it and would still buy a handful of time.
I know I sound repetetive, but I'm doing this trying to highlight the point that was made.
1 -
I somehow couldn't quote, this is the answer to "My point is that Orions point is not an actual game."
Sorry about the inconvenience.
0 -
@Feyard said:
Wow, my comment just deleted itself, sorry give me some time, I'll try to rewrite it (I hate this bug...)It's okay, I read it
I understand his experiment and what he has tried to do, but it is irrelevant as in a real game, it won't occur like this. If as a Wraith for example, I can find one or two survivors on a gen and get a hit in the first 5 seconds of finding them (if I play correctly). Same for other M1 killers.
This counters his assertion that multiple gens will have a certain % completed by the time one survivor is finally downed. This has been my point all along.
There are MANY variables that HAVE to be introduced because otherwise the data collected is false. It's the same situation as a marth depip game. 0.1% of games are played this way (only doing gens, no healing etc etc etc just to spite the killer and not allow him to pip) and so is an outlier in the data and so is rightly ignored. Orion's example is another such situation.
Apologies if I have not conveyed this correctly.
3 -
duplicate, pls delete
Post edited by Feyard on1 -
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
Wow, my comment just deleted itself, sorry give me some time, I'll try to rewrite it (I hate this bug...)It's okay, I read it
I understand his experiment and what he has tried to do, but it is irrelevant as in a real game, it won't occur like this. If as a Wraith for example, I can find one or two survivors on a gen and get a hit in the first 5 seconds of finding them (if I play correctly). Same for other M1 killers.
This counters his assertion that multiple gens will have a certain % completed by the time one survivor is finally downed. This has been my point all along.
There are MANY variables that HAVE to be introduced because otherwise the data collected is false. It's the same situation as a marth depip game. 0.1% of games are played this way (only doing gens, no healing etc etc etc just to spite the killer and not allow him to pip) and so is an outlier in the data and so is rightly ignored. Orion's example is another such situation.
Apologies if I have not conveyed this correctly.
Okay, I now get what you want to say and I also get, why Orion and you are not understanding the point of each other.
First of all I agree to the point you made regarding gens, since it is only the outcome of long chase times it is quite irrelevant (cause making gens take 5 minutes to repair doesn't change the fact that a chase takes forever and gets increasingly frustrating).
The problem with your other two statements (Wraith example and marth depip) is that, while they seem similiar, the core is different: In Orion's example you only need to have played this game for maybe one or two times to do the mentioned actions (run in a straight line and down a survivor running in a straight line).
In the wraith and marth depip example you need to take the skill of both sides into account (for the Wraith example: How fast do you find a survivor? Does the survivor maybe notice you before you uncloak? Is a pallet nearby or does he have a flashlight? etc), which would make it too complicated, this would be exactly what you said about having too many variables. That is exactly why Orion took a simple yet possible situation to show, how flawed the mechanic is.You are right, it won't occur like this in a real game, but as I stated above you can do all this, meaning that (in theory) in the actual game you could just run in a straight line and cost the Killer a handful of time. Most survivors do not do this, since there are a lot of better options available, but if they wanted, they could do it and would still buy a handful of time.
The point is even without all those components (and as stated above most of these components are Survivor sided anyway) the Survivor has the option to just press "W" and buy time, which makes the core concept of the chase mechanic flawed, now add a lot of complicated things and maybe you won't see it anymore, but it's still there. It should be noted that the core concept would be okay, if the complicated things we are adding are by a big margin Killer sided, but that is obviously not the case, making the concept flawed and tilting the balance regarding this mechanic towards the Survivor side.
By the way there is no need to apologize, conveying your thoughts correctly is one of the hardest things in this world, that's why discussions exist.
0 -
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
Wow, my comment just deleted itself, sorry give me some time, I'll try to rewrite it (I hate this bug...)It's okay, I read it
I understand his experiment and what he has tried to do, but it is irrelevant as in a real game, it won't occur like this. If as a Wraith for example, I can find one or two survivors on a gen and get a hit in the first 5 seconds of finding them (if I play correctly). Same for other M1 killers.
This counters his assertion that multiple gens will have a certain % completed by the time one survivor is finally downed. This has been my point all along.
There are MANY variables that HAVE to be introduced because otherwise the data collected is false. It's the same situation as a marth depip game. 0.1% of games are played this way (only doing gens, no healing etc etc etc just to spite the killer and not allow him to pip) and so is an outlier in the data and so is rightly ignored. Orion's example is another such situation.
Apologies if I have not conveyed this correctly.
Okay, I now get what you want to say and I also get, why Orion and you are not understanding the point of each other.
First of all I agree to the point you made regarding gens, since it is only the outcome of long chase times it is quite irrelevant (cause making gens take 5 minutes to repair doesn't change the fact that a chase takes forever and gets increasingly frustrating).
The problem with your other two statements (Wraith example and marth depip) is that, while they seem similiar, the core is different: In Orion's example you only need to have played this game for maybe one or two times to do the mentioned actions (run in a straight line and down a survivor running in a straight line).
In the wraith and marth depip example you need to take the skill of both sides into account (for the Wraith example: How fast do you find a survivor? Does the survivor maybe notice you before you uncloak? Is a pallet nearby or does he have a flashlight? etc), which would make it too complicated, this would be exactly what you said about having too many variables. That is exactly why Orion took a simple yet possible situation to show, how flawed the mechanic is.You are right, it won't occur like this in a real game, but as I stated above you can do all this, meaning that (in theory) in the actual game you could just run in a straight line and cost the Killer a handful of time. Most survivors do not do this, since there are a lot of better options available, but if they wanted, they could do it and would still buy a handful of time.
The point is even without all those components (and as stated above most of these components are Survivor sided anyway) the Survivor has the option to just press "W" and buy time, which makes the core concept of the chase mechanic flawed, now add a lot of complicated things and maybe you won't see it anymore, but it's still there. It should be noted that the core concept would be okay, if the complicated things we are adding are by a big margin Killer sided, but that is obviously not the case, making the concept flawed and tilting the balance regarding this mechanic towards the Survivor side.
By the way there is no need to apologize, conveying your thoughts correctly is one of the hardest things in this world, that's why discussions exist.
I'll just say this.. It doesn't take too long to down a survivor as an M1 killer if you play correctly. Orion's example means nothing. Just like the depip experiment.
2 -
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
Wow, my comment just deleted itself, sorry give me some time, I'll try to rewrite it (I hate this bug...)It's okay, I read it
I understand his experiment and what he has tried to do, but it is irrelevant as in a real game, it won't occur like this. If as a Wraith for example, I can find one or two survivors on a gen and get a hit in the first 5 seconds of finding them (if I play correctly). Same for other M1 killers.
This counters his assertion that multiple gens will have a certain % completed by the time one survivor is finally downed. This has been my point all along.
There are MANY variables that HAVE to be introduced because otherwise the data collected is false. It's the same situation as a marth depip game. 0.1% of games are played this way (only doing gens, no healing etc etc etc just to spite the killer and not allow him to pip) and so is an outlier in the data and so is rightly ignored. Orion's example is another such situation.
Apologies if I have not conveyed this correctly.
Okay, I now get what you want to say and I also get, why Orion and you are not understanding the point of each other.
First of all I agree to the point you made regarding gens, since it is only the outcome of long chase times it is quite irrelevant (cause making gens take 5 minutes to repair doesn't change the fact that a chase takes forever and gets increasingly frustrating).
The problem with your other two statements (Wraith example and marth depip) is that, while they seem similiar, the core is different: In Orion's example you only need to have played this game for maybe one or two times to do the mentioned actions (run in a straight line and down a survivor running in a straight line).
In the wraith and marth depip example you need to take the skill of both sides into account (for the Wraith example: How fast do you find a survivor? Does the survivor maybe notice you before you uncloak? Is a pallet nearby or does he have a flashlight? etc), which would make it too complicated, this would be exactly what you said about having too many variables. That is exactly why Orion took a simple yet possible situation to show, how flawed the mechanic is.You are right, it won't occur like this in a real game, but as I stated above you can do all this, meaning that (in theory) in the actual game you could just run in a straight line and cost the Killer a handful of time. Most survivors do not do this, since there are a lot of better options available, but if they wanted, they could do it and would still buy a handful of time.
The point is even without all those components (and as stated above most of these components are Survivor sided anyway) the Survivor has the option to just press "W" and buy time, which makes the core concept of the chase mechanic flawed, now add a lot of complicated things and maybe you won't see it anymore, but it's still there. It should be noted that the core concept would be okay, if the complicated things we are adding are by a big margin Killer sided, but that is obviously not the case, making the concept flawed and tilting the balance regarding this mechanic towards the Survivor side.
By the way there is no need to apologize, conveying your thoughts correctly is one of the hardest things in this world, that's why discussions exist.
I'll just say this.. It doesn't take too long to down a survivor as an M1 killer if you play correctly. Orion's example means nothing. Just like the depip experiment.
Alright it seems like you want to end this discussion, it's a pity, since I tried my best explaining, but since you are openly ignoring my last point I guess there is nothing I can do about it.
Thanks for sharing your opinion!
0 -
Complettly ignoring that survivors WITHOUT sprint burst are supposed to have enough time when they break sight to hide? This will just be another bloodlust that barely hurts loops, but murders stealth
4 -
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
Wow, my comment just deleted itself, sorry give me some time, I'll try to rewrite it (I hate this bug...)It's okay, I read it
I understand his experiment and what he has tried to do, but it is irrelevant as in a real game, it won't occur like this. If as a Wraith for example, I can find one or two survivors on a gen and get a hit in the first 5 seconds of finding them (if I play correctly). Same for other M1 killers.
This counters his assertion that multiple gens will have a certain % completed by the time one survivor is finally downed. This has been my point all along.
There are MANY variables that HAVE to be introduced because otherwise the data collected is false. It's the same situation as a marth depip game. 0.1% of games are played this way (only doing gens, no healing etc etc etc just to spite the killer and not allow him to pip) and so is an outlier in the data and so is rightly ignored. Orion's example is another such situation.
Apologies if I have not conveyed this correctly.
Okay, I now get what you want to say and I also get, why Orion and you are not understanding the point of each other.
First of all I agree to the point you made regarding gens, since it is only the outcome of long chase times it is quite irrelevant (cause making gens take 5 minutes to repair doesn't change the fact that a chase takes forever and gets increasingly frustrating).
The problem with your other two statements (Wraith example and marth depip) is that, while they seem similiar, the core is different: In Orion's example you only need to have played this game for maybe one or two times to do the mentioned actions (run in a straight line and down a survivor running in a straight line).
In the wraith and marth depip example you need to take the skill of both sides into account (for the Wraith example: How fast do you find a survivor? Does the survivor maybe notice you before you uncloak? Is a pallet nearby or does he have a flashlight? etc), which would make it too complicated, this would be exactly what you said about having too many variables. That is exactly why Orion took a simple yet possible situation to show, how flawed the mechanic is.You are right, it won't occur like this in a real game, but as I stated above you can do all this, meaning that (in theory) in the actual game you could just run in a straight line and cost the Killer a handful of time. Most survivors do not do this, since there are a lot of better options available, but if they wanted, they could do it and would still buy a handful of time.
The point is even without all those components (and as stated above most of these components are Survivor sided anyway) the Survivor has the option to just press "W" and buy time, which makes the core concept of the chase mechanic flawed, now add a lot of complicated things and maybe you won't see it anymore, but it's still there. It should be noted that the core concept would be okay, if the complicated things we are adding are by a big margin Killer sided, but that is obviously not the case, making the concept flawed and tilting the balance regarding this mechanic towards the Survivor side.
By the way there is no need to apologize, conveying your thoughts correctly is one of the hardest things in this world, that's why discussions exist.
I'll just say this.. It doesn't take too long to down a survivor as an M1 killer if you play correctly. Orion's example means nothing. Just like the depip experiment.
Alright it seems like you want to end this discussion, it's a pity, since I tried my best explaining, but since you are openly ignoring my last point I guess there is nothing I can do about it.
Thanks for sharing your opinion!
Orion says it takes too long to catch a survivor as an M1 killer (killers are too slow). He then provides a false scenario to back up his claim. You see nothing wrong with this?
*edit - I should add that when I say "false scenario", it's not what happens in game. I gave an example of a Wraith finding survivors. I could have given any M1 killer as an example. If played correctly, the survivor will be downed in the right time and not as much gen progression will occur, for multiple reasons.
2 -
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
Wow, my comment just deleted itself, sorry give me some time, I'll try to rewrite it (I hate this bug...)It's okay, I read it
I understand his experiment and what he has tried to do, but it is irrelevant as in a real game, it won't occur like this. If as a Wraith for example, I can find one or two survivors on a gen and get a hit in the first 5 seconds of finding them (if I play correctly). Same for other M1 killers.
This counters his assertion that multiple gens will have a certain % completed by the time one survivor is finally downed. This has been my point all along.
There are MANY variables that HAVE to be introduced because otherwise the data collected is false. It's the same situation as a marth depip game. 0.1% of games are played this way (only doing gens, no healing etc etc etc just to spite the killer and not allow him to pip) and so is an outlier in the data and so is rightly ignored. Orion's example is another such situation.
Apologies if I have not conveyed this correctly.
Okay, I now get what you want to say and I also get, why Orion and you are not understanding the point of each other.
First of all I agree to the point you made regarding gens, since it is only the outcome of long chase times it is quite irrelevant (cause making gens take 5 minutes to repair doesn't change the fact that a chase takes forever and gets increasingly frustrating).
The problem with your other two statements (Wraith example and marth depip) is that, while they seem similiar, the core is different: In Orion's example you only need to have played this game for maybe one or two times to do the mentioned actions (run in a straight line and down a survivor running in a straight line).
In the wraith and marth depip example you need to take the skill of both sides into account (for the Wraith example: How fast do you find a survivor? Does the survivor maybe notice you before you uncloak? Is a pallet nearby or does he have a flashlight? etc), which would make it too complicated, this would be exactly what you said about having too many variables. That is exactly why Orion took a simple yet possible situation to show, how flawed the mechanic is.You are right, it won't occur like this in a real game, but as I stated above you can do all this, meaning that (in theory) in the actual game you could just run in a straight line and cost the Killer a handful of time. Most survivors do not do this, since there are a lot of better options available, but if they wanted, they could do it and would still buy a handful of time.
The point is even without all those components (and as stated above most of these components are Survivor sided anyway) the Survivor has the option to just press "W" and buy time, which makes the core concept of the chase mechanic flawed, now add a lot of complicated things and maybe you won't see it anymore, but it's still there. It should be noted that the core concept would be okay, if the complicated things we are adding are by a big margin Killer sided, but that is obviously not the case, making the concept flawed and tilting the balance regarding this mechanic towards the Survivor side.
By the way there is no need to apologize, conveying your thoughts correctly is one of the hardest things in this world, that's why discussions exist.
I'll just say this.. It doesn't take too long to down a survivor as an M1 killer if you play correctly. Orion's example means nothing. Just like the depip experiment.
Alright it seems like you want to end this discussion, it's a pity, since I tried my best explaining, but since you are openly ignoring my last point I guess there is nothing I can do about it.
Thanks for sharing your opinion!
Orion says it takes too long to catch a survivor as an M1 killer (killers are too slow). He then provides a false scenario to back up his claim. You see nothing wrong with this?
I know you aren't addressing me, but I see it the same as @Feyard : You fail to understand the significance of Orion's calculation and try to overcomplicate things with wanting to add variables that are irrelevant to the premise of Orion's experiment.
You are the same as all Survivors who kept insisting that "no one plays like that" in regards to the Depip Squad experiments in trying to discredit them.
It doesn't matter at all that the majority of players don't play like that, it doesn't matter that the majority of chases don't just consist of running in a straight line from the Killer. What matters is that that possibility is there, making the mechanics at their core flawed.
Survivors could at any moment simply decide to only play like the Depip Squad and their win-rates would vastly increase and next to no Killer would pip anymore.
Survivors could also at any moment simply decide to only run from the Killer in a straight line instead of juking. It wouldn't be the ideal scenario, but it would still waste a considerable amount of time in regards to how fast Generators are being repaired these days.
Sure there are scenarios in which a Survivor you just found tried being smart, turned the wrong way and landed right in front of your weapon, then ######### up the on-hit Sprint Burst and gets stuck, being downed in a chase that lasted 10 seconds or so. But if that Survivor would have decided to simple keep on running in a straight line from the Killer upon being found, they would wasted about 40 seconds of the Killer's time until they went down, a lot more than the 10 second chase in the previous scenario. Running in a straight line is neither difficult nor complicated, there is no skill involved in that equation.
What Orion tried to show is that even in the simplest form of a chase: running in a straight line, which incidentally is the worst kind of chase for a Survivor, they waste too much.
Now, I sincerely hope you finally understood why your inputs are irrelevant to this topic. Otherwise, it's best for you to leave this thread to those who actually understand the significance.
1 -
@DocOctober said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
Wow, my comment just deleted itself, sorry give me some time, I'll try to rewrite it (I hate this bug...)It's okay, I read it
I understand his experiment and what he has tried to do, but it is irrelevant as in a real game, it won't occur like this. If as a Wraith for example, I can find one or two survivors on a gen and get a hit in the first 5 seconds of finding them (if I play correctly). Same for other M1 killers.
This counters his assertion that multiple gens will have a certain % completed by the time one survivor is finally downed. This has been my point all along.
There are MANY variables that HAVE to be introduced because otherwise the data collected is false. It's the same situation as a marth depip game. 0.1% of games are played this way (only doing gens, no healing etc etc etc just to spite the killer and not allow him to pip) and so is an outlier in the data and so is rightly ignored. Orion's example is another such situation.
Apologies if I have not conveyed this correctly.
Okay, I now get what you want to say and I also get, why Orion and you are not understanding the point of each other.
First of all I agree to the point you made regarding gens, since it is only the outcome of long chase times it is quite irrelevant (cause making gens take 5 minutes to repair doesn't change the fact that a chase takes forever and gets increasingly frustrating).
The problem with your other two statements (Wraith example and marth depip) is that, while they seem similiar, the core is different: In Orion's example you only need to have played this game for maybe one or two times to do the mentioned actions (run in a straight line and down a survivor running in a straight line).
In the wraith and marth depip example you need to take the skill of both sides into account (for the Wraith example: How fast do you find a survivor? Does the survivor maybe notice you before you uncloak? Is a pallet nearby or does he have a flashlight? etc), which would make it too complicated, this would be exactly what you said about having too many variables. That is exactly why Orion took a simple yet possible situation to show, how flawed the mechanic is.You are right, it won't occur like this in a real game, but as I stated above you can do all this, meaning that (in theory) in the actual game you could just run in a straight line and cost the Killer a handful of time. Most survivors do not do this, since there are a lot of better options available, but if they wanted, they could do it and would still buy a handful of time.
The point is even without all those components (and as stated above most of these components are Survivor sided anyway) the Survivor has the option to just press "W" and buy time, which makes the core concept of the chase mechanic flawed, now add a lot of complicated things and maybe you won't see it anymore, but it's still there. It should be noted that the core concept would be okay, if the complicated things we are adding are by a big margin Killer sided, but that is obviously not the case, making the concept flawed and tilting the balance regarding this mechanic towards the Survivor side.
By the way there is no need to apologize, conveying your thoughts correctly is one of the hardest things in this world, that's why discussions exist.
I'll just say this.. It doesn't take too long to down a survivor as an M1 killer if you play correctly. Orion's example means nothing. Just like the depip experiment.
Alright it seems like you want to end this discussion, it's a pity, since I tried my best explaining, but since you are openly ignoring my last point I guess there is nothing I can do about it.
Thanks for sharing your opinion!
Orion says it takes too long to catch a survivor as an M1 killer (killers are too slow). He then provides a false scenario to back up his claim. You see nothing wrong with this?
I know you aren't addressing me, but I see it the same as @Feyard : You fail to understand the significance of Orion's calculation and try to overcomplicate things with wanting to add variables that are irrelevant to the premise of Orion's experiment.
You are the same as all Survivors who kept insisting that "no one plays like that" in regards to the Depip Squad experiments in trying to discredit them.
It doesn't matter at all that the majority of players don't play like that, it doesn't matter that the majority of chases don't just consist of running in a straight line from the Killer. What matters is that that possibility is there, making the mechanics at their core flawed.
Survivors could at any moment simply decide to only play like the Depip Squad and their win-rates would vastly increase and next to no Killer would pip anymore.
Survivors could also at any moment simply decide to only run from the Killer in a straight line instead of juking. It wouldn't be the ideal scenario, but it would still waste a considerable amount of time in regards to how fast Generators are being repaired these days.
Sure there are scenarios in which a Survivor you just found tried being smart, turned the wrong way and landed right in front of your weapon, then ######### up the on-hit Sprint Burst and gets stuck, being downed in a chase that lasted 10 seconds or so. But if that Survivor would have decided to simple keep on running in a straight line from the Killer upon being found, they would wasted about 40 seconds of the Killer's time until they went down, a lot more than the 10 second chase in the previous scenario. Running in a straight line is neither difficult nor complicated, there is no skill involved in that equation.
What Orion tried to show is that even in the simplest form of a chase: running in a straight line, which incidentally is the worst kind of chase for a Survivor, they waste too much.
Now, I sincerely hope you finally understood why your inputs are irrelevant to this topic. Otherwise, it's best for you to leave this thread to those who actually understand the significance.
You clearly don't know what outliers are in relation to data and why they are to be ignored.
The fact something CAN happen a small amount of times doesn't mean it should be catered to. This goes for the depip nonsense and also this scenario that Orion has painted.
By your logic, we should all be living in bunkers out of fear of a plane dropping on our head, because there is a chance that can happen too (misquoted from another player).
Now, I hope you finally learn that your pseudo-intellectual drivel is irrelevant at all times. Otherwise, it's best to leave the forums to those who don't whinge and complain about everything and enjoy learning how to play correctly.
*edit - also, I am a "killer main" but play both sides. I'm just not a bad killer. Moreover, weren't you ignoring me because I hurt your feelings?
2 -
@DocOctober said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
Wow, my comment just deleted itself, sorry give me some time, I'll try to rewrite it (I hate this bug...)It's okay, I read it
I understand his experiment and what he has tried to do, but it is irrelevant as in a real game, it won't occur like this. If as a Wraith for example, I can find one or two survivors on a gen and get a hit in the first 5 seconds of finding them (if I play correctly). Same for other M1 killers.
This counters his assertion that multiple gens will have a certain % completed by the time one survivor is finally downed. This has been my point all along.
There are MANY variables that HAVE to be introduced because otherwise the data collected is false. It's the same situation as a marth depip game. 0.1% of games are played this way (only doing gens, no healing etc etc etc just to spite the killer and not allow him to pip) and so is an outlier in the data and so is rightly ignored. Orion's example is another such situation.
Apologies if I have not conveyed this correctly.
Okay, I now get what you want to say and I also get, why Orion and you are not understanding the point of each other.
First of all I agree to the point you made regarding gens, since it is only the outcome of long chase times it is quite irrelevant (cause making gens take 5 minutes to repair doesn't change the fact that a chase takes forever and gets increasingly frustrating).
The problem with your other two statements (Wraith example and marth depip) is that, while they seem similiar, the core is different: In Orion's example you only need to have played this game for maybe one or two times to do the mentioned actions (run in a straight line and down a survivor running in a straight line).
In the wraith and marth depip example you need to take the skill of both sides into account (for the Wraith example: How fast do you find a survivor? Does the survivor maybe notice you before you uncloak? Is a pallet nearby or does he have a flashlight? etc), which would make it too complicated, this would be exactly what you said about having too many variables. That is exactly why Orion took a simple yet possible situation to show, how flawed the mechanic is.You are right, it won't occur like this in a real game, but as I stated above you can do all this, meaning that (in theory) in the actual game you could just run in a straight line and cost the Killer a handful of time. Most survivors do not do this, since there are a lot of better options available, but if they wanted, they could do it and would still buy a handful of time.
The point is even without all those components (and as stated above most of these components are Survivor sided anyway) the Survivor has the option to just press "W" and buy time, which makes the core concept of the chase mechanic flawed, now add a lot of complicated things and maybe you won't see it anymore, but it's still there. It should be noted that the core concept would be okay, if the complicated things we are adding are by a big margin Killer sided, but that is obviously not the case, making the concept flawed and tilting the balance regarding this mechanic towards the Survivor side.
By the way there is no need to apologize, conveying your thoughts correctly is one of the hardest things in this world, that's why discussions exist.
I'll just say this.. It doesn't take too long to down a survivor as an M1 killer if you play correctly. Orion's example means nothing. Just like the depip experiment.
Alright it seems like you want to end this discussion, it's a pity, since I tried my best explaining, but since you are openly ignoring my last point I guess there is nothing I can do about it.
Thanks for sharing your opinion!
Orion says it takes too long to catch a survivor as an M1 killer (killers are too slow). He then provides a false scenario to back up his claim. You see nothing wrong with this?
I know you aren't addressing me, but I see it the same as @Feyard : You fail to understand the significance of Orion's calculation and try to overcomplicate things with wanting to add variables that are irrelevant to the premise of Orion's experiment.
You are the same as all Survivors who kept insisting that "no one plays like that" in regards to the Depip Squad experiments in trying to discredit them.
It doesn't matter at all that the majority of players don't play like that, it doesn't matter that the majority of chases don't just consist of running in a straight line from the Killer. What matters is that that possibility is there, making the mechanics at their core flawed.
Survivors could at any moment simply decide to only play like the Depip Squad and their win-rates would vastly increase and next to no Killer would pip anymore.
Survivors could also at any moment simply decide to only run from the Killer in a straight line instead of juking. It wouldn't be the ideal scenario, but it would still waste a considerable amount of time in regards to how fast Generators are being repaired these days.
Sure there are scenarios in which a Survivor you just found tried being smart, turned the wrong way and landed right in front of your weapon, then ######### up the on-hit Sprint Burst and gets stuck, being downed in a chase that lasted 10 seconds or so. But if that Survivor would have decided to simple keep on running in a straight line from the Killer upon being found, they would wasted about 40 seconds of the Killer's time until they went down, a lot more than the 10 second chase in the previous scenario. Running in a straight line is neither difficult nor complicated, there is no skill involved in that equation.
What Orion tried to show is that even in the simplest form of a chase: running in a straight line, which incidentally is the worst kind of chase for a Survivor, they waste too much.
Now, I sincerely hope you finally understood why your inputs are irrelevant to this topic. Otherwise, it's best for you to leave this thread to those who actually understand the significance.
Thanks for your post, having explanations by different people makes it a lot easier to understand!
1 -
@Feyard said:
@DocOctober said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
Wow, my comment just deleted itself, sorry give me some time, I'll try to rewrite it (I hate this bug...)It's okay, I read it
I understand his experiment and what he has tried to do, but it is irrelevant as in a real game, it won't occur like this. If as a Wraith for example, I can find one or two survivors on a gen and get a hit in the first 5 seconds of finding them (if I play correctly). Same for other M1 killers.
This counters his assertion that multiple gens will have a certain % completed by the time one survivor is finally downed. This has been my point all along.
There are MANY variables that HAVE to be introduced because otherwise the data collected is false. It's the same situation as a marth depip game. 0.1% of games are played this way (only doing gens, no healing etc etc etc just to spite the killer and not allow him to pip) and so is an outlier in the data and so is rightly ignored. Orion's example is another such situation.
Apologies if I have not conveyed this correctly.
Okay, I now get what you want to say and I also get, why Orion and you are not understanding the point of each other.
First of all I agree to the point you made regarding gens, since it is only the outcome of long chase times it is quite irrelevant (cause making gens take 5 minutes to repair doesn't change the fact that a chase takes forever and gets increasingly frustrating).
The problem with your other two statements (Wraith example and marth depip) is that, while they seem similiar, the core is different: In Orion's example you only need to have played this game for maybe one or two times to do the mentioned actions (run in a straight line and down a survivor running in a straight line).
In the wraith and marth depip example you need to take the skill of both sides into account (for the Wraith example: How fast do you find a survivor? Does the survivor maybe notice you before you uncloak? Is a pallet nearby or does he have a flashlight? etc), which would make it too complicated, this would be exactly what you said about having too many variables. That is exactly why Orion took a simple yet possible situation to show, how flawed the mechanic is.You are right, it won't occur like this in a real game, but as I stated above you can do all this, meaning that (in theory) in the actual game you could just run in a straight line and cost the Killer a handful of time. Most survivors do not do this, since there are a lot of better options available, but if they wanted, they could do it and would still buy a handful of time.
The point is even without all those components (and as stated above most of these components are Survivor sided anyway) the Survivor has the option to just press "W" and buy time, which makes the core concept of the chase mechanic flawed, now add a lot of complicated things and maybe you won't see it anymore, but it's still there. It should be noted that the core concept would be okay, if the complicated things we are adding are by a big margin Killer sided, but that is obviously not the case, making the concept flawed and tilting the balance regarding this mechanic towards the Survivor side.
By the way there is no need to apologize, conveying your thoughts correctly is one of the hardest things in this world, that's why discussions exist.
I'll just say this.. It doesn't take too long to down a survivor as an M1 killer if you play correctly. Orion's example means nothing. Just like the depip experiment.
Alright it seems like you want to end this discussion, it's a pity, since I tried my best explaining, but since you are openly ignoring my last point I guess there is nothing I can do about it.
Thanks for sharing your opinion!
Orion says it takes too long to catch a survivor as an M1 killer (killers are too slow). He then provides a false scenario to back up his claim. You see nothing wrong with this?
I know you aren't addressing me, but I see it the same as @Feyard : You fail to understand the significance of Orion's calculation and try to overcomplicate things with wanting to add variables that are irrelevant to the premise of Orion's experiment.
You are the same as all Survivors who kept insisting that "no one plays like that" in regards to the Depip Squad experiments in trying to discredit them.
It doesn't matter at all that the majority of players don't play like that, it doesn't matter that the majority of chases don't just consist of running in a straight line from the Killer. What matters is that that possibility is there, making the mechanics at their core flawed.
Survivors could at any moment simply decide to only play like the Depip Squad and their win-rates would vastly increase and next to no Killer would pip anymore.
Survivors could also at any moment simply decide to only run from the Killer in a straight line instead of juking. It wouldn't be the ideal scenario, but it would still waste a considerable amount of time in regards to how fast Generators are being repaired these days.
Sure there are scenarios in which a Survivor you just found tried being smart, turned the wrong way and landed right in front of your weapon, then ######### up the on-hit Sprint Burst and gets stuck, being downed in a chase that lasted 10 seconds or so. But if that Survivor would have decided to simple keep on running in a straight line from the Killer upon being found, they would wasted about 40 seconds of the Killer's time until they went down, a lot more than the 10 second chase in the previous scenario. Running in a straight line is neither difficult nor complicated, there is no skill involved in that equation.
What Orion tried to show is that even in the simplest form of a chase: running in a straight line, which incidentally is the worst kind of chase for a Survivor, they waste too much.
Now, I sincerely hope you finally understood why your inputs are irrelevant to this topic. Otherwise, it's best for you to leave this thread to those who actually understand the significance.
Thanks for your post, having explanations by different people makes it a lot easier to understand!
I understand perfectly, I just disagree. Your condescension is not wanted, needed or earned.
1 -
@Feyard said:
@DocOctober said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
Wow, my comment just deleted itself, sorry give me some time, I'll try to rewrite it (I hate this bug...)It's okay, I read it
I understand his experiment and what he has tried to do, but it is irrelevant as in a real game, it won't occur like this. If as a Wraith for example, I can find one or two survivors on a gen and get a hit in the first 5 seconds of finding them (if I play correctly). Same for other M1 killers.
This counters his assertion that multiple gens will have a certain % completed by the time one survivor is finally downed. This has been my point all along.
There are MANY variables that HAVE to be introduced because otherwise the data collected is false. It's the same situation as a marth depip game. 0.1% of games are played this way (only doing gens, no healing etc etc etc just to spite the killer and not allow him to pip) and so is an outlier in the data and so is rightly ignored. Orion's example is another such situation.
Apologies if I have not conveyed this correctly.
Okay, I now get what you want to say and I also get, why Orion and you are not understanding the point of each other.
First of all I agree to the point you made regarding gens, since it is only the outcome of long chase times it is quite irrelevant (cause making gens take 5 minutes to repair doesn't change the fact that a chase takes forever and gets increasingly frustrating).
The problem with your other two statements (Wraith example and marth depip) is that, while they seem similiar, the core is different: In Orion's example you only need to have played this game for maybe one or two times to do the mentioned actions (run in a straight line and down a survivor running in a straight line).
In the wraith and marth depip example you need to take the skill of both sides into account (for the Wraith example: How fast do you find a survivor? Does the survivor maybe notice you before you uncloak? Is a pallet nearby or does he have a flashlight? etc), which would make it too complicated, this would be exactly what you said about having too many variables. That is exactly why Orion took a simple yet possible situation to show, how flawed the mechanic is.You are right, it won't occur like this in a real game, but as I stated above you can do all this, meaning that (in theory) in the actual game you could just run in a straight line and cost the Killer a handful of time. Most survivors do not do this, since there are a lot of better options available, but if they wanted, they could do it and would still buy a handful of time.
The point is even without all those components (and as stated above most of these components are Survivor sided anyway) the Survivor has the option to just press "W" and buy time, which makes the core concept of the chase mechanic flawed, now add a lot of complicated things and maybe you won't see it anymore, but it's still there. It should be noted that the core concept would be okay, if the complicated things we are adding are by a big margin Killer sided, but that is obviously not the case, making the concept flawed and tilting the balance regarding this mechanic towards the Survivor side.
By the way there is no need to apologize, conveying your thoughts correctly is one of the hardest things in this world, that's why discussions exist.
I'll just say this.. It doesn't take too long to down a survivor as an M1 killer if you play correctly. Orion's example means nothing. Just like the depip experiment.
Alright it seems like you want to end this discussion, it's a pity, since I tried my best explaining, but since you are openly ignoring my last point I guess there is nothing I can do about it.
Thanks for sharing your opinion!
Orion says it takes too long to catch a survivor as an M1 killer (killers are too slow). He then provides a false scenario to back up his claim. You see nothing wrong with this?
I know you aren't addressing me, but I see it the same as @Feyard : You fail to understand the significance of Orion's calculation and try to overcomplicate things with wanting to add variables that are irrelevant to the premise of Orion's experiment.
You are the same as all Survivors who kept insisting that "no one plays like that" in regards to the Depip Squad experiments in trying to discredit them.
It doesn't matter at all that the majority of players don't play like that, it doesn't matter that the majority of chases don't just consist of running in a straight line from the Killer. What matters is that that possibility is there, making the mechanics at their core flawed.
Survivors could at any moment simply decide to only play like the Depip Squad and their win-rates would vastly increase and next to no Killer would pip anymore.
Survivors could also at any moment simply decide to only run from the Killer in a straight line instead of juking. It wouldn't be the ideal scenario, but it would still waste a considerable amount of time in regards to how fast Generators are being repaired these days.
Sure there are scenarios in which a Survivor you just found tried being smart, turned the wrong way and landed right in front of your weapon, then ######### up the on-hit Sprint Burst and gets stuck, being downed in a chase that lasted 10 seconds or so. But if that Survivor would have decided to simple keep on running in a straight line from the Killer upon being found, they would wasted about 40 seconds of the Killer's time until they went down, a lot more than the 10 second chase in the previous scenario. Running in a straight line is neither difficult nor complicated, there is no skill involved in that equation.
What Orion tried to show is that even in the simplest form of a chase: running in a straight line, which incidentally is the worst kind of chase for a Survivor, they waste too much.
Now, I sincerely hope you finally understood why your inputs are irrelevant to this topic. Otherwise, it's best for you to leave this thread to those who actually understand the significance.
Thanks for your post, having explanations by different people makes it a lot easier to understand!
Obviously not for biggs. At this point, I think he's simply trying to argue for the sake of arguing.
There's a reason I avoid contact with the likes of his, you can't argue with those people. If Orion wasn't a good friend, I probably wouldn't have bothered with biggs in the first place.
2 -
@DocOctober said:
@Feyard said:
@DocOctober said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
Wow, my comment just deleted itself, sorry give me some time, I'll try to rewrite it (I hate this bug...)It's okay, I read it
I understand his experiment and what he has tried to do, but it is irrelevant as in a real game, it won't occur like this. If as a Wraith for example, I can find one or two survivors on a gen and get a hit in the first 5 seconds of finding them (if I play correctly). Same for other M1 killers.
This counters his assertion that multiple gens will have a certain % completed by the time one survivor is finally downed. This has been my point all along.
There are MANY variables that HAVE to be introduced because otherwise the data collected is false. It's the same situation as a marth depip game. 0.1% of games are played this way (only doing gens, no healing etc etc etc just to spite the killer and not allow him to pip) and so is an outlier in the data and so is rightly ignored. Orion's example is another such situation.
Apologies if I have not conveyed this correctly.
Okay, I now get what you want to say and I also get, why Orion and you are not understanding the point of each other.
First of all I agree to the point you made regarding gens, since it is only the outcome of long chase times it is quite irrelevant (cause making gens take 5 minutes to repair doesn't change the fact that a chase takes forever and gets increasingly frustrating).
The problem with your other two statements (Wraith example and marth depip) is that, while they seem similiar, the core is different: In Orion's example you only need to have played this game for maybe one or two times to do the mentioned actions (run in a straight line and down a survivor running in a straight line).
In the wraith and marth depip example you need to take the skill of both sides into account (for the Wraith example: How fast do you find a survivor? Does the survivor maybe notice you before you uncloak? Is a pallet nearby or does he have a flashlight? etc), which would make it too complicated, this would be exactly what you said about having too many variables. That is exactly why Orion took a simple yet possible situation to show, how flawed the mechanic is.You are right, it won't occur like this in a real game, but as I stated above you can do all this, meaning that (in theory) in the actual game you could just run in a straight line and cost the Killer a handful of time. Most survivors do not do this, since there are a lot of better options available, but if they wanted, they could do it and would still buy a handful of time.
The point is even without all those components (and as stated above most of these components are Survivor sided anyway) the Survivor has the option to just press "W" and buy time, which makes the core concept of the chase mechanic flawed, now add a lot of complicated things and maybe you won't see it anymore, but it's still there. It should be noted that the core concept would be okay, if the complicated things we are adding are by a big margin Killer sided, but that is obviously not the case, making the concept flawed and tilting the balance regarding this mechanic towards the Survivor side.
By the way there is no need to apologize, conveying your thoughts correctly is one of the hardest things in this world, that's why discussions exist.
I'll just say this.. It doesn't take too long to down a survivor as an M1 killer if you play correctly. Orion's example means nothing. Just like the depip experiment.
Alright it seems like you want to end this discussion, it's a pity, since I tried my best explaining, but since you are openly ignoring my last point I guess there is nothing I can do about it.
Thanks for sharing your opinion!
Orion says it takes too long to catch a survivor as an M1 killer (killers are too slow). He then provides a false scenario to back up his claim. You see nothing wrong with this?
I know you aren't addressing me, but I see it the same as @Feyard : You fail to understand the significance of Orion's calculation and try to overcomplicate things with wanting to add variables that are irrelevant to the premise of Orion's experiment.
You are the same as all Survivors who kept insisting that "no one plays like that" in regards to the Depip Squad experiments in trying to discredit them.
It doesn't matter at all that the majority of players don't play like that, it doesn't matter that the majority of chases don't just consist of running in a straight line from the Killer. What matters is that that possibility is there, making the mechanics at their core flawed.
Survivors could at any moment simply decide to only play like the Depip Squad and their win-rates would vastly increase and next to no Killer would pip anymore.
Survivors could also at any moment simply decide to only run from the Killer in a straight line instead of juking. It wouldn't be the ideal scenario, but it would still waste a considerable amount of time in regards to how fast Generators are being repaired these days.
Sure there are scenarios in which a Survivor you just found tried being smart, turned the wrong way and landed right in front of your weapon, then ######### up the on-hit Sprint Burst and gets stuck, being downed in a chase that lasted 10 seconds or so. But if that Survivor would have decided to simple keep on running in a straight line from the Killer upon being found, they would wasted about 40 seconds of the Killer's time until they went down, a lot more than the 10 second chase in the previous scenario. Running in a straight line is neither difficult nor complicated, there is no skill involved in that equation.
What Orion tried to show is that even in the simplest form of a chase: running in a straight line, which incidentally is the worst kind of chase for a Survivor, they waste too much.
Now, I sincerely hope you finally understood why your inputs are irrelevant to this topic. Otherwise, it's best for you to leave this thread to those who actually understand the significance.
Thanks for your post, having explanations by different people makes it a lot easier to understand!
Obviously not for biggs. At this point, I think he's simply trying to argue for the sake of arguing.
There's a reason I avoid contact with the likes of his, you can't argue with those people. If Orion wasn't a good friend, I probably wouldn't have bothered with biggs in the first place.
Orion is blushing. You can't see it because of the pillow case, but he is.
3 -
@DocOctober said:
@Feyard said:
@DocOctober said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
@only1biggs said:
@Feyard said:
Wow, my comment just deleted itself, sorry give me some time, I'll try to rewrite it (I hate this bug...)It's okay, I read it
I understand his experiment and what he has tried to do, but it is irrelevant as in a real game, it won't occur like this. If as a Wraith for example, I can find one or two survivors on a gen and get a hit in the first 5 seconds of finding them (if I play correctly). Same for other M1 killers.
This counters his assertion that multiple gens will have a certain % completed by the time one survivor is finally downed. This has been my point all along.
There are MANY variables that HAVE to be introduced because otherwise the data collected is false. It's the same situation as a marth depip game. 0.1% of games are played this way (only doing gens, no healing etc etc etc just to spite the killer and not allow him to pip) and so is an outlier in the data and so is rightly ignored. Orion's example is another such situation.
Apologies if I have not conveyed this correctly.
Okay, I now get what you want to say and I also get, why Orion and you are not understanding the point of each other.
First of all I agree to the point you made regarding gens, since it is only the outcome of long chase times it is quite irrelevant (cause making gens take 5 minutes to repair doesn't change the fact that a chase takes forever and gets increasingly frustrating).
The problem with your other two statements (Wraith example and marth depip) is that, while they seem similiar, the core is different: In Orion's example you only need to have played this game for maybe one or two times to do the mentioned actions (run in a straight line and down a survivor running in a straight line).
In the wraith and marth depip example you need to take the skill of both sides into account (for the Wraith example: How fast do you find a survivor? Does the survivor maybe notice you before you uncloak? Is a pallet nearby or does he have a flashlight? etc), which would make it too complicated, this would be exactly what you said about having too many variables. That is exactly why Orion took a simple yet possible situation to show, how flawed the mechanic is.You are right, it won't occur like this in a real game, but as I stated above you can do all this, meaning that (in theory) in the actual game you could just run in a straight line and cost the Killer a handful of time. Most survivors do not do this, since there are a lot of better options available, but if they wanted, they could do it and would still buy a handful of time.
The point is even without all those components (and as stated above most of these components are Survivor sided anyway) the Survivor has the option to just press "W" and buy time, which makes the core concept of the chase mechanic flawed, now add a lot of complicated things and maybe you won't see it anymore, but it's still there. It should be noted that the core concept would be okay, if the complicated things we are adding are by a big margin Killer sided, but that is obviously not the case, making the concept flawed and tilting the balance regarding this mechanic towards the Survivor side.
By the way there is no need to apologize, conveying your thoughts correctly is one of the hardest things in this world, that's why discussions exist.
I'll just say this.. It doesn't take too long to down a survivor as an M1 killer if you play correctly. Orion's example means nothing. Just like the depip experiment.
Alright it seems like you want to end this discussion, it's a pity, since I tried my best explaining, but since you are openly ignoring my last point I guess there is nothing I can do about it.
Thanks for sharing your opinion!
Orion says it takes too long to catch a survivor as an M1 killer (killers are too slow). He then provides a false scenario to back up his claim. You see nothing wrong with this?
I know you aren't addressing me, but I see it the same as @Feyard : You fail to understand the significance of Orion's calculation and try to overcomplicate things with wanting to add variables that are irrelevant to the premise of Orion's experiment.
You are the same as all Survivors who kept insisting that "no one plays like that" in regards to the Depip Squad experiments in trying to discredit them.
It doesn't matter at all that the majority of players don't play like that, it doesn't matter that the majority of chases don't just consist of running in a straight line from the Killer. What matters is that that possibility is there, making the mechanics at their core flawed.
Survivors could at any moment simply decide to only play like the Depip Squad and their win-rates would vastly increase and next to no Killer would pip anymore.
Survivors could also at any moment simply decide to only run from the Killer in a straight line instead of juking. It wouldn't be the ideal scenario, but it would still waste a considerable amount of time in regards to how fast Generators are being repaired these days.
Sure there are scenarios in which a Survivor you just found tried being smart, turned the wrong way and landed right in front of your weapon, then ######### up the on-hit Sprint Burst and gets stuck, being downed in a chase that lasted 10 seconds or so. But if that Survivor would have decided to simple keep on running in a straight line from the Killer upon being found, they would wasted about 40 seconds of the Killer's time until they went down, a lot more than the 10 second chase in the previous scenario. Running in a straight line is neither difficult nor complicated, there is no skill involved in that equation.
What Orion tried to show is that even in the simplest form of a chase: running in a straight line, which incidentally is the worst kind of chase for a Survivor, they waste too much.
Now, I sincerely hope you finally understood why your inputs are irrelevant to this topic. Otherwise, it's best for you to leave this thread to those who actually understand the significance.
Thanks for your post, having explanations by different people makes it a lot easier to understand!
Obviously not for biggs. At this point, I think he's simply trying to argue for the sake of arguing.
There's a reason I avoid contact with the likes of his, you can't argue with those people. If Orion wasn't a good friend, I probably wouldn't have bothered with biggs in the first place.
Doc, you are so passive aggressive. I perfectly understand what is being said and I disagree, just like you are disagreeing with me. There's no need to be condescending (which is unearned and unwarranted) because you are doing exactly what you say I do. You can not be argued with. Ever. You say you ignore me, yet here you are, as with many times before, jumping in to disagree and tell others that you ignore me and everyone should follow suit. Yeah, I'm the "despicable" one.
Keep it up buddy. Sorry I hurt your feelings x
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