General Discussions
General Discussions
Dev Gameplay
Has anyone ever actually Tuned In to Matthieu Cote's (or however it's spelled) stream to see how he plays? If you have, you can kind of see why this games balance is sort of... Flunked to say the least.
I love the guy, and I'm grateful he brought this game to our lives, but God Damn getting Spun 8 times in a row on the Game map as Doctor on a neon green Claudette, and seeing the burning in his eyes through a $8 webcam is... Concerning to know he's in Charge of Dead by Daylight.
Comments
-
Something tells me he is not solely in charge of balance. Therefore, his individual skill has nothing to do with it. From what I have seen, most of the Devs are fairly good players, not outstanding, but definitely above average. Let the man have fun.
18 -
He doesn't have to be good at the game. A lot of game developers are not good at their own game and he probably isn't even in charge of most of the balancing decisions and all that stuff.
11 -
So you're saying he was playing Killer and getting wrecked? Or he was the Claudette and getting wrecked?
0 -
You'll find Mcote gets stomped on whether he plays killer or survivor. He's not that good. When they say "the devs don't play their game", he's the poster child for that statement.
5 -
But he allows these changes to actually get released.
4 -
He doesnโt touch the balance, heโs doing partnerships and stuff I believe. Heโs never been a pro player.
The ones that are responsible for balance....donโt think they stream?
Closest is probably McLean. Heโs a programmer I think. Heโs not so bad. About average, probs what you would expect from someone who doesnโt have time to play all day. Pretty good at 360s though.
4 -
He was the killer and got.. Humiliated
0 -
Unless your team doesn't know jack F*ck about how to balance a game
4 -
So wouldnt that mean he wants to buff killer? Cuz right now killer is super weak
1 -
"Cuz right now killer is super weak"
Hahahah...Nope.
@Topic:
People who are working on DBD do not need to be good at DBD. You cannot compare them to people who play the game for a living, and even most of the Casuals will most likely play more DBD than the people actually working on it. And this is fine.
I mean, I can also imagine that you dont want to spend your free time on DBD (at least a lot), when you work the whole Day on the game.
You can compare that to a Cook who is working in a restaurant. They will most likely not want to eat the food there and rather go to get some Fast Food.
6 -
I hate the argument that devs don't have to play the game or be competent in it to understand balance. Using your analogy it is like saying a cook doesn't have to taste his food before serving it, he can just trust it will be good.
If you care about your craft you should at least know what you are making.
10 -
That is literally exactly how it works with most competent commercial cooks.
9 -
He has even mentioned before there are times where he goes the balance team saying "This needs to be fixed", and they turn around and tell him "There is nothing wrong with it". Lol I find that kind of cute.
3 -
tbh, I think the Devs have more knowledge of the game than 99,99% of the playerbase. Including everyone writing in this Forum.
5 -
Good one.
9 -
Go to any restaurant that isn't your standard chain, I guarantee the cook tastes what he makes before it hits your table. I don't expect the worker at Denny's to taste his food but that's why he works at Denny's
3 -
They taste their own recipes, but not every part, all the time, and usually not as a compete dish. Because they don't need to, because they know what makes food good. All they need is a small sample here and there to know they're on the right track.
Developers test the features they're developing, but they don't need to spend hours and hours mastering them to know whether they're working or not. A better analogy for the "devs have to be good at their game to balance it" argument would be to say that construction workers need to live in a house they built for a year in order to know whether it was well-built. No, they don't. They just have to be good at their job.
2 -
Do you really think chefs taste every single dish they make all day, every day?
3 -
How did this become a debate about chefs tasting their own food? ๐คฃ
5 -
You would think
1 -
I ever said they eat meals at a time, but I do believe any place worth it's salt tastes their food before serving it.
When devs don't spend any significant amount of time playing the game, they don't realize the negative impact of the changes they make. IDC if they spend 1 million hours testing and coding a single change in a vacuum if they don't see the impact once that change goes live.
That construction argument doesn't make sense. A builder doesn't build a whole house, and houses once they are complete go through inspections each time they are sold.
0 -
And a single developer doesn't usually build an entire game. Plus, the builder himself does not and is not expected to conduct those inspections. So the analogy still stands.
5 -
Dev's are generally not the highest level at their own game. I mean a lot of fighting game makers go out of their way to find professional fighting game players, to play test and find broken stuff to get rid of, because they couldn't utilize their own characters they created to their fullest potential. They rely on community, and hard data to balance most of the time. Though money could be a good incentive as well.
0 -
But he does approve every patch that comes out
1 -
Yes... but the comment you responded to wasn't talking about MCote or even DBD, it was part of a broader discussion about whether developers need to be good at their own game in order to be able to balance it.
4 -
Can anyone in here tell me all those pro dev teams that other games have?
DBD seems to be the only community that can't grasp the concept that people don't want to go and work on a game for 12hrs a day to go home and play on the game for 8+ hours a day.
There is rarely I lobby I go into now-a-days where any survivor has less than 1K hours. Expecting that of the devs is ridiculous, I understand a lot of people here don't work full time jobs or are still in school but you guys have to realise it isn't feasible in the slightest.
Trust me, they have an "in-house" team of players from the community that have pre-PTB access to the game who give feedback, who do you think was testing balance / patches before they made PTBs public, I am -pretty- certain that team is still in place.
5 -
So then explain why you need to be good in your own game or even have to play it as developer?
0 -
The electrician who puts in the conduit and wires tests their work, the plumber tests his work. Every tradesmen is tests their work to make sure it functions well. When it comes to games, you need to be competent to test it's true functionality.
0 -
Queen said in another thread that Cote isn't responsible for balance, but i feel like he has a big input on it when he wants.
For example when he got humiliated at that korean event with hag insta blind flashlights were nerfed and destroyed a few weeks later after being untouched for like a year (not saying they didn't deserve to be destroyed). Also they like to balance around newer, weaker players so I feel like if Cote made any criticisms about the game they would be taken more seriously.
3 -
Your analogies are consistently flawed. This discussion is not going to go anywhere as long as you keep bringing up random professions that have nothing to do with one another to try to prove a point. Tradespeople don't design products for other people to use. You need to be competent at your job as a designer in order to make a good product - you do not have to be masterfully skilled at using the thing you're designing.
4 -
Going to be a nerd for a second.
In the wonderful world of Computer Science, all developers should be using some form of incremental and iterative process to develop their games. This is what you're referencing Fibi, a process all developers use to create games, including me. ๐
3 -
My analogies are fine, you brought up building. Overall you are wrong and I can't fix that. If you don't have a clue how what you are designing works then you are going to end up with a bad product. A game designer can have an idea in their head of one thing but it might not work in reality. Unless they play and experience it they will never know. You are wrong if you think trades people don't have an input into the design of things.
0 -
I have to agree with @Fibijean on this one because if you are a great game designer, you probably did your research and learned from past mistakes to know if something will work out or not. You don't exactly need to play the game to know if something will work out.
Sure, the developers need to play their game to understand how the game functions, but with a developer lens, they know what exactly can fit in their game because they know complex game theory. We the community, think we know everything, which is somewhat true, but we don't have the knowledge of the developers to make key decisions.
For example: Everyone knew DS was broken before its rework and many ideas from the community just didn't work. Later, the developers came out with an amazing DS rework that left the majority of the community in awe. This happened not because they mastered the game, mastering game didn't give them the solution to pre-rework DS, this happened because the developers are great at their job and discussed complex game theory.
Therefore, I believe Fibijean is on to something when she said it's not all about playing the game, the developers just know more about handling design decisions in general. This is why playing the game alone doesn't make you the go-to person for balance, there's a reason why people don't think streamers have all the answers. It's a lot more complicated than just playing the game to see what works out.
1 -
If you don't have a clue how what you are designing works then you are going to end up with a bad product. A game designer can have an idea in their head of one thing but it might not work in reality.
You're right about that...
Unless they play and experience it they will never know.
... but your conclusion is false.
I said at the start that developers need to test their products. That does not mean they need to have mastery of them. Good game designers aren't good because they play their own games a lot, they're good because they understand game balance and game theory in general.
You don't have to be good at something to be able to analyse it - you just need to understand it. Experience does not always equal understanding, and vice versa. You only need to look at some of the balance ideas devised by people who play this game for a living to know that.
0 -
The New DS is still flawed and practically everyone knows it practically grants invincibility. Forces slugging or jumping in a locker; making the killer decide if he should Eat the DS, or leave that survivor in the locker and try to find someone else; and the survivor just gets out of a locker for Free in front of a killer.
No killer should be Afraid of any Survivor.
2 -
Mathieu is in charge of public relations IIRC. Getting licenses and such. He isn't a main part of the balance team, and as such doesn't have to be good at the game.
1 -
90% of the playerbase isn't good at the game either. The gatekeeping here is stifling.
I'm guessing you're all still salty over the Ruin rework? Ruin not only demanded perfection from every player with no input on the killers part, but also made two perks pay-to-win (Ruin itself, plus Tapps perk to counter it). And even at its prime it only lasted 30 seconds in a real match against real players so it is moot point and only really existed to make newbies lives miserable.
Most killer changes were deserved too. Abilities already have add-ons that deal extra status effects. They didn't need perks heaped on top as well.
3 -
Being in his work position I doubt you'd have time to play the game on a regular basis
0 -
To clear a couple things up (although I'm sure this same thread will pop up again in a few days anyway):
- He is not a game designer. He does not make balance decisions. We have a design team with a lead designer that handles that sort of thing.
- The people making balance decisions are knowledgeable about the game and keep an eye on experienced players.
- He's a busy guy that doesn't get a lot of time to play anymore. He knows he's not the best player, he has said this himself many times.
9 -
Who Does make the game so I can tune into their streams?
0 -
The devs on this game suffer from the same fate that I see the devs on another game that I play, World of Warships, where they are bad at the game and rely on testers and spreadsheets to balance their game. The problem with this is that the devs miss something by not playing their game, they miss the 'feel' of the game. Sure something will be statistically balanced, but it will not be immersive and fun. Taking data from the lower echelons and the higher echelons of the game is not a way to balance it. Unfortunately for the DBD devs, they have created a PVP game, not a PVE game, and thus the game needs very elegant balance, especially considering it's a 4 v 1 PVP game.
This game requires a lot of work for the devs, that includes spending hours a day playing at a high level and getting a feel of the game, not just looking at data or even spectating super high level 8 hour a day streamers. The lack of time the devs are spending on playing the game is starting to really show in their balance decisions, as now a lot the big balance stuff has been largely solved, and there are now a million smaller balance changes that need to happen.
As I said, this is a PVP game, there are players on two sides battling against each other, the experience needs to be fun for both of them. Balancing the game towards new players will make higher level play absolutely atrocious. Balancing the game towards high level play will make the gameplay atrocious at low levels. From what the Devs have released in where they get their data, it seems these two extremes are where they get most of their information from, and they don't play the game at a high enough level to understand how the game feels on either side.
0 -
Late to the point, but I'm a Professional Chef and any cook worth their salt will taste every component of every dish every single time they make it, and often, the restaurant staff will taste the dishes in their entirety to make sure the components work well with each other.
You want to know the most VALUABLE information a Chef can get though? Customer feedback.
Because it doesn't matter if the staff likes it. If the customers do not, it will not sell, and will hurt the restaurant.
And that's one of the biggest problems here. The staff pushes through decisions when they have consumer feedback stating it is not wanted, because they think they know what's best all the time.
I'm all for trying new things, but when something is been tried and tested to not be enjoyable/positive, there's no excuse not to change it or fix it (Legion changes, Nurse basekit changes, paid rift instead of events, constant nerfs to both sides, etc.)
DBD gets away with it because they have no significant competition right now, but things can change very quickly. (PUBG anyone?)
1 -
Here's @Almo 's twitch
Watch Almo2001 with me on Twitch! http://www.twitch.tv/almo2001?sr=a
And here's LMcLean's twitch
Watch LMcLean_BHVR with me on Twitch! http://www.twitch.tv/lmclean_bhvr?sr=a
1 -
I just passed the 1,000 hour mark on Steam. I don't ever leave it running if I'm not playing, so it's not because of that. :)
1 -
Almo do you stream? I gotta see more Pig main streamers happen. ๐
1 -
I do! almo2001 on Twitch. I haven't much recently, was waiting for the new computer to come in so I have fewer framerate issues while streaming. It came today, so I expect there to be some streaming this week or on the weekend if all goes according to plan!
4 -
Just watched your newest video. For the love of god, get a better mic. The mic bundled with my Packard bell 166mhz sounded better. A $40 blue snowball is miles better.
0 -
lol his video of Pig with new Ruin.
*walks around a small fence*
"sucks I had to go around that.."
and that's a small fence, WHY DO HADDONFIELD/SPRINGWOOD LONG FENCES EXIST ARRRRRGH!!!!
Time for a nerf to long fences?
1 -
I don't think it's the mic... I think it's the fan on the external hard drive. But yeah the voice quality is next up to be fixed after the framerate.
0 -
Followed! :D
1
