@powerbats said:
Since if the killer knows players 1 and 2 are swf or even 1-3 he'll tunnel and camp the solo queues because they're much easier.

Here you go ! Now that you finally admited it, what might you do to even things out ?

PS: so many words dude and you're still not giving ideas on the topic here. Save for the map twiking which might be interesting but let's face it: if the new set up favors the killers, then solo players are even more fu**ed than they was before.

RE PS : yes it is cheating because it falls in the "other hacks" section of the game banning rules, in this forum. Read it, you'll see.

@powerbats said:

@Utna said:

So here I go : I do not believe the devs can cut SWF off the game, nor they can separate them in the lobbies from the solo players ... in fact I believe solo player are usefull to SWF mostly as filler to reach the mandatory 4 survivors. I feel the killer should not be rewarded either for having players cheating on his own game (voice com were never part of the game, hence those are cheats).

So I believe the solution should be to remove perk slot to the SWF players. One less perk slot for each friend teamate. This might encourage SWF to go with teams of 2 instead of 4 which might be much better for the game balance.

Ok voice comss aren't cheats the same as perks aren't cheats and both sides need to stop with the excuse that something is a cheat. The devs have flat out said voice comss aren't cheats nor are perks so just stop.

As far as removing how often do you actually face a full 4 man swf really? Most often when I swf it's with 1 person and then usually only for a few games. When I'm solo most often there's only a duo swf group. When I'm a killer it's rare to face more than a duo swf.

Removing perks just because someone wants to have fun isn't the way to go and adding a 5th perk slot probably isn't either. What will really help killers is better map balance to start cough Barn cough.. If the remove and or tweak the endless loop spots as they've already started doing that's more of an immediate impact.

Since if you add a 5th perk slot you have t deal with balance again, because now you just whacked the balance adjustments you made for that killer. You add a 5th slot now does that really help the killer or make them weaker in the sense that they start taking perks not effective etc.

What does that do to their power curve then, do you have to stop and change the improvements you had already planned. If you add a 5th perk slot you run into the law of unintended consequences. Similar to when they introduced one thing and it became looping.

I don't have a problem with giving killers bonus bp or perhaps a bonus versus swf, but how do you balance that for the solo queue players? How hard is it to make the buffs only work against the swf people without letting the killer know who's who?

Since if the killer knows players 1 and 2 are swf or even 1-3 he'll tunnel and camp the solo queues because they're much easier.

You bring up some excellent points. Map balance would be a huge benefit to both sides. If you have better maps, less infinite loop spots, maybe more window/doors versus pallets you could start to remove Bloodlust, but that is a different topic. I have seen an increase in actually playing against each other (mindgames, decision making) versus sprint burst to the ironworks and loop 15 times over.

While I suggested the 5th perk, I understand the balance around that, but you cannot really balance around voice comms either. While I said before that I do not find it cheating, it was not intended for gameplay. That is why there are no internal game voice comms and very little emotes to provide information. Then it becomes how do you counter something that is not cheating, that there is no AntiVoice system and that is outside of your control, in the game? That comes down to one of two responses....Do you take something away (punish) users even if they are not using voice (perk, add-on, extra generator, etc) or do you increase the other side to improve their performance? Either way, one side is already unbalanced so how do you make that whole again?

For the killer, you don't have much you can do. You cannot increase his/her power. Making 1 time instant downs is way too powerful. You could run a random add-on, but that could help/hinder a killer. Could you increase the speed? but again that could be unfair if there are any solo players. What is the best we could do? I think my 5th add-on suggestion was not a poor one. It allows the killer to choose what the add-on is. Just make it a default slot calling out SWF 5th perk or something. This can be the killers choice. Sure it may unbalance the game. A killer could run Ruin, Nurse, Whispers, BBQ + Franklin's/Make Your choice and that could steamroll a team. But remember a killer has to catch the survivors before the generators go off. (PLEASE DON'T SUGGEST ADDING MORE TIME TO GENERATORS) So they are fighting against a clock.

@powerbats said:

@Nightmare247 said:

You bring up some excellent points. Map balance would be a huge benefit to both sides. If you have better maps, less infinite loop spots, maybe more window/doors versus pallets you could start to remove Bloodlust, but that is a different topic. I have seen an increase in actually playing against each other (mindgames, decision making) versus sprint burst to the ironworks and loop 15 times over.

Agreed, the tile changes on Autohaven were nice, but some spots like barn really need a good nerf bat.

While I suggested the 5th perk, I understand the balance around that, but you cannot really balance around voice comms either. While I said before that I do not find it cheating, it was not intended for gameplay. That is why there are no internal game voice comms and very little emotes to provide information. Then it becomes how do you counter something that is not cheating, that there is no AntiVoice system and that is outside of your control, in the game? That comes down to one of two responses....Do you take something away (punish) users even if they are not using voice (perk, add-on, extra generator, etc) or do you increase the other side to improve their performance? Either way, one side is already unbalanced so how do you make that whole again?

The way to balance is to improve maps so if you improve the maps you can then tweak killers easier. But you also will probably need to change/remove some perks on both sides. Perhaps give the killer something t help them versus swf only but without telling them it's a buff. That way they don't know who's who until after the game

For the killer, you don't have much you can do. You cannot increase his/her power. Making 1 time instant downs is way too powerful. You could run a random add-on, but that could help/hinder a killer. Could you increase the speed? but again that could be unfair if there are any solo players. What is the best we could do? I think my 5th add-on suggestion was not a poor one. It allows the killer to choose what the add-on is. Just make it a default slot calling out SWF 5th perk or something. This can be the killers choice. Sure it may unbalance the game. A killer could run Ruin, Nurse, Whispers, BBQ + Franklin's/Make Your choice and that could steamroll a team. But remember a killer has to catch the survivors before the generators go off. (PLEASE DON'T SUGGEST ADDING MORE TIME TO GENERATORS) So they are fighting against a clock.

I think a 5th slot could work but there'd have to be limitations on what you could do with it to make it not completely game breaking. because then you'd have to either remove/rework it or nerf the killers. If they can ever get to where it's more about stealth and actual evasion swf won't be such a huge issue.

Because then it becomes a game of hide and seek and you can buff killers at that point to be really scary no matter who're they're against. Similar to how Hide or die works, even with groups the killer has advantages.

What if the Devs created 5 (or so) specific perks for use in the 5th slot only? They could not be accessed in the bloodweb all players no matter what had them, but they can be selected as a build out, but only go in the 5th slot.

I had a few ideas. 1. Increased Gen Regression speed. (I don't think this is noticeable in a game to a killer maybe 5-10% faster) 2. A blood point multiplier that would trigger at the end of the trial. 3. Pallet reduction (remove 2-3 randomly) I don't think many would notice that. 4. Window Boards (a few windows would appear cutting off an escape route) 5. The random status effect when hooked that enabled when unhooked (survivors could get blindness, exhaustion, exposed, hindered, mangled).

The last one was a bit more than I was looking for, but it was a start. Then at the end of the game it would be revealed as the 5th perk activated only for the bp.

@Utna said:

@powerbats said:
Since if the killer knows players 1 and 2 are swf or even 1-3 he'll tunnel and camp the solo queues because they're much easier.

Dude, what's wrong with you ! You ARE saying, RIGHT HERE, that solo players are easier to catch than SWF. How can you then pretend there is nothing to be done to prevent this disadventage. And don't tell me about solo players being noobs or whatever as if you ignored that voice coms have a huge impact on the game, even though DBD, do not have its own comm service.

Just to be clear: solo player's disaventage do not come from DBD itself, since it comes mainly from 3rd party programs like voice comm programs as TeamSpeak. Thus, trying to balance survivors VS killers in general makes no sense at all because any advantage (better maps, or 5th perk, or whatever) given to the killers will be felt twice as much by solo players which have nothing to do with the problem at hand.

So, the key to a balanced game, is to make SWF parties, less awesome. And since devs canno't cut the voice communications (because this is not par of DBD anyways), they need to debuff SWF players drasticly.

I feel you, but the same reason you said solo player would be at a disadvantage with any improvement to killers makes SWF defuff a bad idea.

Here is the thing....If you put a nerf, debuff, etc on an SWF team they will feel as though they are being punished for playing with their friends. That "punishment" will either send them packing never to return to DbD for being treated unfairly or will cause them to lobby hop until they find all of their party and avoid the debuff.

So you run into a very difficult scenario for all parties SWF/Solo/Killer. The Devs response originally was to improve the information that the solo player had. Icons that showed someone was in a chase, someone was nearby, give them as many details as possible to balance the non-voice communications. If that is still planned or is still in the works, a buff to the killer would not put the solo at a much of a risk. Now, this is not currently the case, so yes, a solo would be at a disadvantage at the moment.

I do think though that more information to the solo part the better and then the Killer can be buffed without as many consequences against SWF teams.

@Tizzle said:
Yes I'm dead serious.

Good Survivors know where the Killer is without voice, it's not that difficult .

Like I said, they need to add something to the end game tally screen so these stupid posts stop.

So you can't tell the difference between knowing something and guessing something. Alright, I wish I could be around when you play poker. Looks like so much fun.