The Dev Update. A clever and deceptive overall buff for survivors.
So lets break this dev update down and understand how this will ultimately buff survivors and nerf killers.
First of all, breakable walls, the devs have stated that these new breakable walls will be on the new map only, and not all the other maps in the game. This means, on average, you have what about 1/25 or so chance to get this new map with these new breakable walls with no offerings burned. The devs have also gone on to say that this is a test, so we don't even know if breakable walls will make it into the game, as they don't want survivors to be too unsafe. This does signal, however, that the devs aren't ignoring all of what killers are saying, just most of it. So this is a very slight buff to killer roughly about 2% of the time and we don't know how many breakable walls there will be in a map.
Item retention. Very obvious survivor buff here, albeit very small. The intended side effect of this update is to encourage survivors to use their rarer items, which are more powerful. Maybe the devs are wanting to balance the less used but more powerful tools of the survivor kit.
Sabotaging. While killers get a buff to their efficiency 2% of the time, survivors get a buff to their efficiency 100% of the time as this will affect all maps.
Toolbox changes. This is debatable, it depends on the exact numbers. If a toolbox gives you, say 20 seconds of repair speed over its life and the new changes make it 15 seconds or even less, we must understand that the original 20 seconds is staggered and the new toolbox changes are going to be very quick. 20 seconds over 2 or 3 gens vs 10 or 15 seconds over one gen. Is this a nerf, a buff, or will it effectively leave toolboxes unchanged in their efficiency, time will tell. This is certainly not a clear nerf to toolboxes. The item retention change is going to encourage survivors to bring better toolboxes as well.
So even if breakable walls make it to all the other maps, survivors are getting huge efficiency buffs and they are also getting buffs to allow them to sabotage hooks quickly enough for the struggling survivor being carried by the killer to wiggle free while also having a greater chance of retaining the stronger, rarer items they bring into trials.
Comments
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It takes a considerable amount of bias to look at the update notes and actually think it's survivor sided. You seem to completely be ignoring anything other than what favors survivors.
Breakable walls will definitely be killer sided since if it's an advantage, they can break them whenever; and if it's not an advantage, they don't have to be broken at all.
Item retention was always ridiculously easy on escape. If you think this will increase item retention by any significant margin, you have no clue what survivors have been doing all this time. However, the garunteed addon loss on the other hand will be where the true difference comes from and that is huge unless survivors start running Ace in the Hole to counter it.
Sabotaging will now require a deal more of a head start than previously. If a survivor is downed too close to a hook, it's impossible to do anything about it with this change. And the faster hook spawns are definitely in the killer's favor.
Toolbox changes were clearly a nerf. If you bothered reading the details, that much was definitely made clear. You're just desperate to see everything as a survivor buff if you're honestly questioning this.
And all 3 killers that got changes were definitely buffed. This is one of the most killer sided patches in a long while.
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^ Pretty much everything this guy said. I know it's hard to believe, but the devs do care about both sides.
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Breaking walls will definitely take time to do, we don't know how much time and we don't know how many walls. Like I said, this is only affecting one map out of many, so the change here is not clearly killer sided. The devs have pointed out that the breakable walls may make survivors less safe, so survivors are definitely in their mind even with this new mechanic.
Like I said, item retention will encourage players to bring rarer items in, since there is less fear of losing those items. It will also encourage them to use those items more often. I also said this was a slight buff to survivors, not a large one.
The fact that sabotaging a hook is clearly easier in this new update gives survivors more of a chance to sabotage a hook before a killer gets to it. I do not understand what you're talking about here, it is going to increase their efficiency.
Also like I said, toolbox changes aren't going to be a clear nerf. It all depends on the numbers. Considering they are making toolboxes into mini spare parts, there is definitely room for these to be abused and exploited for the survivors' favor.
The three killers that got buffed needed the buffs, and 3/18 killers being changed is hardly an overall buff for killers.
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Breakable walls are only a buff if they are added to maps without being counterbalanced. Otherwise it's a sidegrade.
And the new map having breakable walls isn't a buff at all. Because the new map never didn't have breakable walls. So there is no other baseline that this is buffed relative towards.
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Ah yes, they've had us all fooled and only the most wise and astute of players are able to see through the veil of lies to the true intentions beneath!
... Or maybe they're actually doing their best to make the game better for both roles, and you're just trying really hard to pretend that isn't the case so you can keep feeling hard done-by.
Sorry if that seems harsh, but as @Dehitay suggested, anyone who isn't actually biased towards either role can clearly see that this update is pretty much a net benefit to everyone.
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The devs have also gone on to say that this is a test, so we don't even know if breakable walls will make it into the game, as they don't want survivors to be too unsafe.
This is a pretty hard twisting of words. They're not testing whether breakable walls will make it into the game; they're testing how to best implement breakable walls into existing maps. That's why it will for now only appear on the new map, as that map was designed entirely with breakable walls in mind.
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I couldn't agree more. And don't get me started on the trapper and plague nerfs.
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I've clearly laid out my points here, you are free to take them apart and refute them with evidence from the update notes.
Whether or not the devs are trying their best is actually irrelevant to this discussion.
Breakable walls may be too strong for killers, and it may make certain loops too unsafe for survivors. If every other map in the game has to go through significant changes to make breakable walls viable in this update, the devs are not likely to implement them in the old maps. Maybe new maps going forward, but not old maps.
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They will add breakable walls to other maps if they see it's a good idea, they are just testing out where these walls will be the most effective on the new map so they don't add in all the breakable walls to the other maps then realizing that they are crappy spots or too strong
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The item change isn’t cleverly survivor sided like you say, kind of newuteal honestly. Right now if I bring a purple medkit with double charge addons I can escape and keep all of that, now even if I escape I have to replace 8-9k worth of addons
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It seems to me that we haven’t read the same thing so I will cote:
“For now, they will be exclusive to the upcoming map, where we’ll be experimenting with different uses. Breaking some may make a strong window loop weaker, allowing you to catch up much quicker. Others might open up new paths to get around the map faster. We’ll be keeping a close eye on how everyone uses them to see what works best before adding them to existing maps.”
breakable walls are a new thing and for what I’ve read, they want data to analyse before changing the other maps so, yes, they will be bringing it to all maps but they don’t want to mess those maps up before knowing what they should do exactly but somehow people still manage to turn a good decision into seeming to be a bad one. What would happen if they decided to change all maps right away to the new update?! The game could actually turn into an unplayable one! Just be patient and be thankfull that they are trying new interactions and trying to make the game more fun to everyone. With every update there are always players saying bad things of it without even trying ore knowing exactly how it will be!
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I started writing a paragraph and then I saw what you wrote so I deleted it. Well said. The OP is suffering from willful ignorance. He/she will never see anything outside of a telescope with biased lenses.
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Clearly no point wasting more time trying to explain this to you..
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That is purely an assumption on your part with no real basis behind it. Devs have already said in the notes that they plan to implement this in older maps (presumably as a way to fix problematic older maps without a rework on the level of Badham). They are simply going to use the new map as a test to see how to best do it on older maps.
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What you said is exactly what I'm saying about breakable walls.
They may break the game without significant changes to the old maps, so they may not be implemented.
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I'm with you OP. Not at all convinced by breakable walls. If they are only on 1 map then simply making a good map would have sufficed. I imagine breaking them will take long too. Long enough the survivor can be long gone. Maybe they can help end loops.
And now on top of crutch perks we will have to deal with people saboing hooks. Can't slug, can't hook, can't do anything but lose.
Toolbox changes just seems like a way to crank out a gen before killer can even walk to you. Yeah less duration, but that burst of speed may be more helpful in the end anyways especially for 3 gen strats.
The only good thing really was the changes to the individual killers. The rest seems meh at best, but this is the forum where devs will always be praised for everything. They could do a complete 180 and people here would switch their stance entirely too.
Again devs have put a small band aid on gen speed and not really tackled a root issue with the game.
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The only worthy response to this is this.
Lmao
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Very poor bait or an insane amount of bias
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Alright, I'll take it seriously.
There's nothing really to address in that first paragraph - you admitted yourself that it's actually a buff to killers, small though it may be (and small for very good reasons, none of which have anything to do with "not wanting survivors to be too unsafe" - that right there is pure conjecture, as survivors' safety wasn't even mentioned in the official post).
Item retention is barely anything more than a QOL change. You could interpret it as a minor nerf to Franklin's Demise, but that's it. The vast majority of survivors already use their item up until the last couple of charges so that they will be able to leave the match with it. This update is not encouraging anyone to use any items that they don't already use. All it's doing is making it less of a pain to do what almost everyone already does.
The sabotage changes actually look like they'll be to the ultimate benefit of killers in my opinion, but we simply don't have enough information about it to know for sure one way or the other yet. Numbers will make all the difference here. It's highly presumptuous to refer to it as either a buff or a nerf at this early stage.
Toolbox changes, again, depend on numbers. You even acknowledged as much yourself. The most compelling evidence we currently have access to one way or the other is the statement that "the amount of time saved with a Toolbox is much lower overall", which I would argue therefore indicates that, based solely on the information we currently have, the toolbox changes can be considered an overall nerf.
You also left out of your original post the fact that survivor add-ons now disappear after the match, which is a very obvious nerf to survivors, and the significant buffs to Plague and Trapper and what is arguably a buff to Doctor as well.
So basically, none of the points you mentioned conclusively constitute a nerf to killers or a buff to survivors, and some of them are quite the opposite. You have also extrapolated unfairly on certain parts of the dev post, and conveniently omitted certain other parts which don't support your narrative, both of which make it very difficult to interpret your argument as anything more than propaganda - ironically enough, considering the title of the thread.
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What they said:
yes, they will be bringing it to all maps
What you said:
they may not be implemented.
How is what they said exactly what you're saying?
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This reminds me of when someone thought removing pallet vacuum would be a buff since the increase of downs under the pallet would make pallet saves a lot easier.
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Conspiracy runs deep with you. The truth is out there but so are you.
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"For now, they will be exclusive to the upcoming map, where we’ll be experimenting with different uses. Breaking some may make a strong window loop weaker, allowing you to catch up much quicker. Others might open up new paths to get around the map faster. We’ll be keeping a close eye on how everyone uses them to see what works best before adding them to existing maps." -Verbatim from the dev update.
So a quality of life update is not seen as a buff in your eyes? You even admit it is, at the very least, a nerf to franklin's. Please reread what I said, I said this will be a slight buff to survivors, not a large one.
The sabotage changes will negatively effect the killer. Even though hooks will regenerate faster, what matters is the hook being sabotaged and the killer having the caught survivor wiggle free from their hands. This is an insane loss for the killer, to have to have spent the last 30-40 seconds trying to down a survivor for them to only wiggle free. Since the distance of getting a safe hook has been drastically reduced, survivors can exploit this with burning offerings and keeping track of where they are in relation to hooks.
The strength of the toolbox changes will not be in the first 2 - 3 gens of the map like they are now. The strength will be in the clutch part of the game, where the killer can patrol gens easier. It will make doing the last few gens that are more easily camped by the killer go by much quicker, which reduces the strength of 3 gen strats. This combined with the devs' intention to reduce the effectiveness of slowdown perks in the future will likely end up making toolboxes actually stronger in the long run. The devs have elucidated this intention by explaining how survivors can strategically use the toolboxes, instead of just slamming them right off the bat.
Addons increase the power of items, but items are still quite powerful on their own, especially if survivors bring 4 of them into a match. As a high rank survivor, I don't find the need to even use addons much of the time, having a green toolbox / flashlight / healkit is usually enough to drastically increase my chances of escape.
Actually what I've laid out shows that it's ultimately a buff to survivors. Breakable walls are a very large variable and we can't be guaranteed that they will be added to old maps because they might break old maps without those maps being significantly changed. The amount of breakable walls will matter too. I don't see what I've misunderstood in the dev update. I've clearly and concisely laid out what the changes are and what they mean for the game.
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.............i hate everyone in this community.
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Its about time us survivors got some buffs, we havent had any since last week.
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With this up coming update, I highly doubt it'll be survivor based. Breakable walls are only on the new map for testing purposes. After things run extremely smoothly or they're done touching up the maps or both, then we'll actually see the walls in every single map. It's just a new feature that they're working on, they'll get the maps soon. Toolboxes were nerfed, which is nice and with a decent trade off. Sabotaging hooks is a lot better now, it always felt clunky. The item depletion thing is just a survivor quality of life. We got stuff like that as killers, actually in this update we have some
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Quoting that line proves nothing except that breaking walls will improve things for killers - a point on which we have already agreed.
And no, Quality of Life changes are by definition not nerfs or buffs. They simply make the experience of playing the game smoother or less tedious, without actually affecting the balance of the game in any notable way.
Everything you just said about sabotaging hooks is already the case, and has nothing to do with the upcoming changes.
Once again, we don't yet have enough information about the toolbox changes to say which side they will benefit the most. Any speculation along those lines is just that - speculation.
Even if we assume you're correct in saying that add-ons don't have much of an effect on the power of an item, that doesn't mean that losing them at the end of every match isn't a nerf. Kind of like how the fact that hooks now respawn faster doesn't necessarily mean the sabotage changes aren't a buff. You're operating to a very obvious double standard here.
Nothing you have said, aside from your own speculations, indicates that the new patch is "actually a buff to survivors". With all respect, the fact that you still think it does tells me that I'm not going to be able to convince you to look at things objectively, and so I probably shouldn't waste any more of my time trying. Others have already made many of the same points, so if you want additional counter-arguments, look to them instead.
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A junk pallet next to a jungle gym with a breakable wall will make an entire zone of the map very unsafe for survivors.
On god windows and god loops there are unsafe pallets where a breakable wall will most likely be put. If you think of these, it will turn the god loops and god windows into very unsafe areas, and these are usually in the middle of the map.
I can see with just these two issues alone that this change will drastically increase killer efficiency with the way killers are balanced right now.
The walls in this game have been designed to be so long for a very clear purpose, for survivor safety. If these walls are not as long as they have been designed, over the course of the years this game has existed, it is a very real problem for the overall balance of the game.
If the breakable walls are like pallets, there can be some play around them, but if they are just easily breakable by the killer at the killer's leisure, they will be in areas that will be very strategically advantageous for killers, enough to break the game in the killers' favor.
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Perhaps play the ptb before immediately crying on the forums, that way you have a better idea of what the toolbox change is as well as how the breakable walls at least in the beta test have been implemented.
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While it's not survivor sided and it seems to be pretty even. It is 100% a buff for SWF teams. I can't see how they will lose now, ever. Think about the sabo'ing issue. A full SWF can ensure you are never hooked.
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Except that quoting what I quoted specifically lays out the devs' interest on survivor safety.
Like I said, you even admitted that the item change is a nerf to franklin's. It's a QoL change for survivors plus a slight nerf to killers. This is exactly what I said, a slight buff for survivors.
We have enough information to make an intelligent guess as to how the changes to toolboxes will effect the game. At what part of the game do you need a boost in repair speed? Towards the end where the killer is strongest and has the most map presence. What do these changes ultimately do? Change the current staggered repair bonus of the toolboxes to a quick bonus. If the changes were only to the charges and nothing else, it would be a clear nerf.
I have laid out why the sabotage changes are beneficial to survivors. Hook regeneration speed is quite meaningless, what matters is that a survivor can quickly sabotage a hook that the killer is on their way towards, preventing them from getting a hook. I said addons do make items more powerful, but the base items are powerful on their own. I don't see the double standard here, a regenerating hook is different from having addons be one use. I've laid out when the sabotage changes will be useful, and they will be severely detrimental for the killer when pulled off. Losing addons is tied to the bloodpoint system, not necessarily the balance of the game.
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Imagine not just waiting another few hours to see if you're anywhere close to being right before posting a bunch of wild speculation.
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A llama?! HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE TROLLED!
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Well, let's take a guess what's going on
They are like pallets that the killer can interact with. Brutal Strength can actually work with these walls too, so that's fun. But, that also means they're limited and I'm pretty sure the devs will make it where they will not be closed to each other the exception being houses nearing each other.
Each map seems to have at least two God loops at least. Two very distinctive. The killer shack and something that's almost always inside a building. They might make it where it's a 50/50 on where it spawns. Here's a good example. If one is in the killer shack, there will not be one in the building and vise versa. So survivors can at least have one loop they can kind of count on. But, who knows, but I seriously doubt there will be that many walls that would hugely impact the killer's kill rate
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I have to admit, I'm intrigued by that first part. I cannot for the life of me figure out how you could possibly get "the devs are worried about survivors' safety" from that quote. Please explain? I'm genuinely curious.
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The killer shack is fine imo, it doesn't need a change because it's usually off to the side of the map.
The change I'm more worried about changing the overall balance of the game is the god loop and god window that's usually in the middle of the map. An unsafe zone on the outskirts of the map is bad, but it can be avoided. You can't avoid a weak zone in the middle of the map. The middle of the map is the most effective route for survivors to take to do their objectives and is also the most effective way the killer can traverse the map. Having an unsafe zone in the middle will force them to take safer and longer routes around the map instead of through the middle.
The god windows need to be nerfed, but giving the killer the ability to take down a wall and have that be present for the rest of the match can be game breaking for some maps and some layouts.
There can be some serious strategic flaws in the new breakable walls mechanic if they are implemented into the old maps the way the old maps are designed right now. New maps going forward can be designed around the new mechanic, the old maps would need significant changes.
"For now, they will be exclusive to the upcoming map, where we’ll be experimenting with different uses. Breaking some may make a strong window loop weaker, allowing you to catch up much quicker."
"These changes may make some loops we intended to be strong to be weaker, we will have to see how players play to gauge effectiveness"
Do you agree that making a loop strong is beneficial for survivors?
If you do, then the safety of a survivor is considered in the strength of a loop
Therefore, making sure a loop is strong and not weak is a consideration on the survivor and their safety, not the killer.
It's quite logical.
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Everybody can always find a way to blame the poor devs 😓
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I love how OP quotes the dev saying that wall breaking will make loops less safe and still calls it a buff to survivors.
Obvious troll is obvious but quite funny.
👻
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You just forgot to read the part where I said that it's only going to affect one map. It is also unclear how it will be implemented into the rest of the game if it will be even implemented at all, as I have laid out how broken the mechanic can be on some maps.
Really you just need to read is all.
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Oh man, this was so infuriating to read :)
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Item retention makes absolutely zero impact at all. Items were nerfed across the board for survivors. You could, RIGHT NOW, use a rare toolbox to 99% and stop using it so you don't lose it. Now you can use it to 100%. It recieved a 1% buff, but at the cost of ALWAYS losing add-ons.
Before and after this change, you need to survive a match to keep the item. Literally, survivors are not any more incentivized to bring rarer items, because the conditions for keeping the item are the exact same. They just now dont have to stop using the item .5 seconds before it ran out of charges, which is a minuscule change. In practice, nothing has changed in fact.
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- No, its going to be on EVERY MAP, just not yet
- It is a VERY small buff and only to low rank surviviors. EVERY other survivior can 99 items. Oh wait, you totally skipped the part about addons, looks like its a nerf afterall
- Wrong again, it will be on all maps after they finish testing. Sabotaging will be faster now, but you cant 99, so its may be slower. Oh, and you completely forgot that part about faster hook respawns
- Agree, it depends on exact numbers. Devs said that the toolbox eficiency will be LOWER than now, so yes its a nerf, we just dont know how much. At worst it will stay the same.
- Sorry, but this rant at the end makes no sense to me, half of your reasoning was based on the fact that walls will not make it to other maps... Also item chamge is a nerf, amd toolbox change is also a nerf. Only sabotaging will have unknown effects.
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Sabotaging isn't currently unbalanced, nor is it a problem. Most survivors don't even bother doing it unless they have dailies. This change is neither a buff nor nerf to sabotaging, just a change in how it works. I don't see the problem, and I definitely don't see sabotaging surging in popularity after the change.
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More bait, very nice, very nice. Keep it up. If this isn't bait you just need to stop playing this game because holy ######### you will never be happy again of you think about the game like this.
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@ZaKzan I was only referring to one particular post you made, not your overall statements, but I did read them all! I also didn't want to direct quote because it felt passive aggressive when I genuinely think your trolling is funny.
But if you want, I was referring to this part of one of your posts:
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"'For now, they will be exclusive to the upcoming map, where we’ll be experimenting with different uses. Breaking some may make a strong window loop weaker, allowing you to catch up much quicker. Others might open up new paths to get around the map faster. We’ll be keeping a close eye on how everyone uses them to see what works best before adding them to existing maps.' -Verbatim from the dev update.
So a quality of life update is not seen as a buff in your eyes? You even admit it is, at the very least, a nerf to franklin's. Please reread what I said, I said this will be a slight buff to survivors, not a large one."
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So there it says, "Breaking some may make a strong window loop weaker, allowing you to catch up much quicker," with you marking this part as bold and then commenting on it that, "I said this will be a slight buff to survivors."
Thanks for the attention though uwu
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Which killers do every single game. I read that there are going to be no bp bonuses from bbq soon. So even less points. We use our items. You have the chance to keep them.
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I am thinking about sabotage. All the people who think it's going to be so strong are the ones who aren't clearly thinking about it. The current sabotage system works because it takes a tiny fraction of a second to destroy a hook. In order to destroy a hook a killer is going to now, you have to be far enough away from it that the killer doesn't reach in time, but not so far away that you break it so fast that the killer knows to immediately change directions or drop the survivor. Not to mention, you have to accurately guess which hook the killer is going to in the first place.
You're right that a full SWF can abuse this on the condition that they are highly coordinated. They would have to locate all the hooks near a downed survivor and work on them before the killer gets to them which is possible but requires knowing where the hooks are almost ahead of time without auras. Or they could use the slightly more garunteed system of figuring out which hook the killer is going to and then have 2 survivors bodyblock while the final one sabotages the hook at the cost of now having multiple injured survivors for the save. Either way, this requires them to stray from gens in mass and becomes quite obvious what they're doing after the first time so you can resort to counterplay.
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Did you actually look at the Dev update or just skim it for the word "Survivor"? First of all, the Devs clearly stated that breakable walls would be incorporated into existing maps as long as everything worked out.
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