One condition to make NOED more fair
Comments
-
0
-
you can prevent NOED from activating by cleansing totems. i don't see any problem with both NOED and DS they have their own risk.
1 -
or you can destroy totems and not gen rush
1 -
I would say, if you notice that playstyle assume they have noed and do the bones.
0 -
You have a single totem to cleanse at the end, it isn't difficult... even for rank 20s as there is no skill check, just hold m1
0 -
There are people who camp just to ruin fun for others, just look in the forum and tou will find more than a few.
This nerf is not pointless or not needed, you meet campers/tunnelers quite often, you would know if you played survivior.
So again, this nerf I proposed would change NOTHING in high ranks, it would only make NOED campers possible to counter. So YOU lose nothing. Absolutely nothing. Why would you be against a change that doesnt affect you or anyone with IQ higher than a potato?
Again, using NOED is not playing without 4th perk, NOED gives you 80-120 seconds of GEN SLOWDOWN. This is comparable to Thanatophobia.
0 -
Well that's one way to maintain the group think mentality. Get people in authority to make absolute points. Thanks for the discussions.
*rolls eyes*
0 -
everyone is too busy completing all 5 gens in 6 minutes rather than cleansing totems - honestly NOED should be built into every killer at this rate.
1 -
So basically big indirect buff to camping? Id rather not.
0 -
Then... Run Small Game.
Sorry, but I've been told a thousand times to "Just run x perk" as a killer. I'm kinda desensitized.
I mean, if you don't find the totem and you don't want to spend the time finding it, then why should the killer be punished?
Its the strongest late-game perk, but it still only activates at the late game. You're not gathering any bloodpoints by then anyone besides the escape BP. So what's the issue? Fairness? Is it fair that a Killer has to already wait the whole match and play it with three perk slots, only to have one activate toward the end that is not guaranteed to activate if all his totems are down? ######### that.
1 -
Look I'm a killer main, but I consider myself to be proficient at both sides. NOED is a super buzzkill at the end of a game. It is not fun AT ALL to go against and I don't blame anyone for wanting it nerfed. It increases the likely-hood of the killer getting at least 1-2 kills for playing poorly.
I know the argument of finding all 5 totems instead of rushing gens and I get that, fair enough. BUT, a few things make doing that either super un-fun or super annoying/tedious.
1.) Playing solo or with randoms prevents us as a team from knowing how many totems are left to cleanse during a match, and we can waste major time looking for things that are possibly not there.
2.) Finding NOED when end-game is already happening needs to be REALLY quick or you won't beat the sacrifice of your teammate on the hook. (Assuming the killer is proxy-camping, which he probably is because he's using NOED as a crutch.) This is further exaggerated when the teammate that is hooked is on struggle phase.
3.) Is extremely unforgiving towards newer survivors that are unaware how to handle it. They most-likely don't know where a lot of the totem spawns even are, making the cleansing of the totem either extremely lucky or borderline impossible. It can make you feel robbed of a win when you get so close to surviving and the killer gets rewarded for doing worse than you.
I'm not saying NOED needs to be nerfed to the ground, it just needs some tweaks. Also, just because I'm not mentioning some of the OP things survivors have, doesn't mean I don't know they exist. (DS+Unbreakable combo, getting DS'ed without tunneling... etc.)
0 -
This is objectively false.
NoED rewards the killer for playing with three perks the whole match like a clown that he is, in order to reward him for late-game. It doesn't reward failure because he is actively making an effort to -prepare for the late game- via perks. You may as well remove Fire Up and Bloodwarden since they both activate or reward the killer for 'doing poorly'. Except you completely ignore the concept of Early Game, Mid Game, and Late Game and instead presume that all perks need to be active in Early Game to be fair.
DS isn't a reward for failure either, as a Survivor has made the preparation for that event by using a perk slot, even if it isn't guaranteed to be used in the match.
If using a precautionary tactic is "rewarding failure" then idk where you've been the last decade or two of video game development. Games and systems have this type of mechanic all the time.
0 -
Since the Ruin nerf I find myself much less agitated when NOED comes into play.
0 -
Again, playing with NOED is not playing with 3 perks, NOED gives you over 80 seconds worth of gen slowdown, this is comperable to other slowdown perks in the game.
NOED rewards failure, defending gens is your objective. Betting on the "last chance" is not bad by itself, but NOED requires no tokens/stacks to activate, so there is no difference of you played well or not, camping 1 person all game gives you the same NOED as getting 11 hooks and 3 kills.
Both DS and NOED reward you when the other side does their objective. DS rewards you when the Killer gets many hooks in a short amount of time. Also you are guaranteed to to use DS, as you can just force it by doing gens/gates in front of the killer. Pairing it with Unbreakable gives you a guaranteed health state.
And yes, Fire Up also rewards failure, except this perk has way weaker effect than NOED.
Blood Warden does NOT reward failure, it rewards you for hooking someone during EGC, and this is a success, not a failure
0 -
Well, firstly, no, defending gens isn't the killer's main objective. The Killer's objective is to kill survivors. Defending gens is simply required to prolong the match so that the Killer has a better chance to kill them before escaping. But it is not the Killer's primary concern here; it doesn't matter if you do zero gens or all the gens, in ten minutes or in three; what matters is if the Killer is able to sacrifice Survivors. His entire gameplay is centered around that concept. It DOESN'T center around gens, they just happen to be an obstacle. So right there your fundamental belief about the Killer's objective is flawed, and therefore so is the rest, but I'll address it anyway:
NOED does have a requirement; it requires you to be in the late game for it to activate. The survivors' objective is -already done- when it activates and it risks the Killer losing on his own. That's the sacrifice it takes to get such a powerful perk. And that's WHY its so powerful; because its only active during 10% of the match. The other 90% the perk is sitting in a corner.
Additionally, DS and Unbreakable as a combo does grant a guaranteed health state. But it also absorbs two perk slots for things that would actually be more beneficial. DS and Unbreakable are fine, even though the DS condition may be a little lengthy. Its a meme combo that's easy to read. Not sure why that's being seen as an issue here; its a perk for a reason. DS isn't an issue because it requires a survivor to already be hooked to punish a killer for being greedy; it wasn't okay before its nerf because it punishes the killer for simply playing the objective. Unbreakable punishes the killer for slugging, and can only be used once. Both of these conditions are avoidable, and both require the survivor to utilize a perk slot.
1 -
Yes... it is... because you're literally given the tools to REMOVE the potential perk from the game but you don't because... reasons? Too much time?
But then you ######### because the perk is punishing you for not cleansing?
1 -
No, I agree that effect of NOED is balanced, its just that it can be abused by campers and tunnelers. Objective of the killer is to kill, but he has to hook as many times as possible. Thats why camping and Moris make you depip.
So my idea to nerf NOED is simple, just make NOED only usable on surviviors you have hooked before (like Moris) It would force killer to not camp if he wants to use NOED. And it would not affect NOED as an endgame perk at all.
DS is broken. It does not activate only when the killer is tunneling or is too greedy, it triggers all the time. For example the person with DS can do gens right in front of you and you cant do anything about it, because they will just hide in a locker or have Unbreakable equipped. Not to even mention situations when there are multiple DSes active at the same time. DS should deactivate when you are not tunneled.
0 -
Actually it does not. Most survivors do not clense every totem, if NOED Pops up they typically just remove it shortly after it spawns. Mainly because you don't need to do every totem, just the one that spawns. If the killer is camping then destory NOED, save friend using full health *Unless its bubba* make sure to 99% a door before doing this and bring BT/DS and your good. Most survivors run BT or DS or Both so camping is really not a problem. There is easy counter play to this perk even in this hypethetical camp land that a lot of high rank killers do.
0 -
And just so you know this nerf that you suggest will only encourage killers to tunnel. Do you want tunnelers? Or would you prefer them to hit who ever they want to avoid one guy getting targeted... your only making it easier to make people who already took a beating to get further beaten.
1 -
It’s completely fair. I’m a level 16 killer. If I’m going to be matched with a lobby where half of the survivors are level 2 and 3 (which happened just now), and the other two are 8 and 15, I need to have something like this to even up the odds.
And even THEN I am still probably going to only kill 2 at most.
1 -
do bones
-from a survivor main
1 -
Thats why its not fair lol. You shouldnt be able to win against them. Well, you also shouldnt be matched with them in the first place, but matchmaking is broken.
So lution to that is fixing matchmaking, not giving you a perk that lets you win against people better than you.
0 -
They often dont cleanse before it appeears, because there is no sign that NOED is in play. So you have ro cleanse every game to avoid NOED
But it doesnt make this perk weaker at all, Devour Hope spawns at the start of the game, so you can find it early, and then go and cleanse it as soon as it procs, or you notice that killer lets you unhook.
You cant do that with NOED. It spawns, and NOW you have to find it, while being Exposed.
BT and DS doesnt help at all, if you dont get unhooked, then you wont get tunneled... And BT is useless agains Bubba, even is they SOMEHOW menage to do unhook in the killers face. Also DS needs to be changed too, if I need to bring a broken perk to counter camping then something is wrong.
0 -
They wouldnt get tunneled... Why? Because when you are unhooked, you are INJURED. So you can be 1shot anyway... So you will be able to use NOED only on people you have hooked EARLIER, so its not tunneling at all.
0 -
I have answered this post 3 times now and it keeps not appearing. I think matchmaking isn’t the only thing that’s broke.
1 out of 4 kills isn’t a win. DBD isn’t supposed to be fair to survivors. If by some miracle I manage to do a clean sweep with NOED then that is due to their own overconfidence. They know that perk exists. They should be cleansing and not just rushing gens.
1 -
For instance, as a survivor, I just came across two other survivors working on a gen with a glowing, active totem literally right next to them within their line of sight. I’m sure they would have gotten to it afterwards, but given the odds that the killer would be by (and he was by) before the gen was done it seems really silly to leave that standing given how much faster it is to cleanse.
0 -
1 kill out if 4 isn’t really a win. If it’s unfair then so are moris. DBD isn’t supposed to be fair. Killers are supposed to have the upper hand. If I somehow by some twist of fate manage to kill 3/4 or even 4/4 then that is because of the survivors extreme overconfidence. They know NOED exists. They should have been cleansing totems and not just rushing gens.
(Second time posting this. Don’t know why they keep deleting if I try to edit posts.)
0 -
It won't matter if you're exposed because the killers camping anyway right? In your hypothetical scenario where this perk is overpowered The killer is camping and cannot protect the totem. Most people who use NOED don't try to protect it but rather try to stop people going for the gates so just don't go for the gates and look for NOED. The killer can typically down one or two people if their group together using this perk. So as a survivor all you need to do is just destroy the totem then use your full health to unhook. You might trade yeah but both people have borrowed time and/or DS so it shouldn't matter. You are only complaining about this perk in the sense of camping but when you camp with it's not good, and furthermore weaker than used correctly.
1 -
Camping takes less time than doing all gens and totems, so killer either gets one more survivior, or gets NOED and gets one/two more surviviors.
Also killer can camp a hook that is near a totem or a gen, slowing the ge even more, or even making it impossible to cleanse.
Once NOED is active you can easily get one down before it gets cleansed.
0 -
Ds can always be avoided if you play well enough. The only time " it cant be avoided" is in the end game when they are crawling to the exit gate and you have to pick them up. But even that scenario can be avoided by playing better.
0 -
NOED is to killers what unbreakable is to survivors. They both reward the person who has it for doing absolutely nothing but failing and punishes the other side for playing smart.
Let me explain what I mean. If all survivors run unbreakable and the killer successful downs them all, rather than the killer being rewarded with a win that he deserves, all survivors are able to pick themselves up and change the momentum of the game. Now survivors will say "just dont slug" but everyone who plays killer knows there are situations where slugging is the smartest and sometimes only tactic to getting a 4k.
Likewise, with NOED, killers will say "just do totems, dont gen rush." But everyone who plays survivor knows there are very common situations where gen rushing is the smartest and sometimes only tactic to escape. For instance in cases where the killer is camping or tunneling one survivor in order to quickly get them out of the game. If you dont gen rush in those situations you will quickly find yourself in a spot where you cant win the game.
0 -
What if you are in a game where it is you and 2 or 3 other new players who do not even think about cleansing totems because they see it is dull and think eeh it's okay? I have had many MANY games where I get a high rank killer and very low rank players if not completely new players who don't even know you can't heal a reverse bear trap from their heads. They last thing they are thinking is NOED is gonna pop up and get them.
I mean they could worst case just make it a totem that is lit but wont take effect until the end to give new players a chance to learn. I last game tonight had 2 players who followed me because they thought I could heal them and I guess take off their traps from their heads. I felt bad but nothing I could do but now I am expecting them to also know to cleanse every totem.
I also have to ask if NOED is completely fair then why was everyone so scared or mad at HEX Ruin? That perk was nothing compared to NOED. At least when the game started you knew from the start to cleanse that. You have no idea that NOED will be in effect meaning from now on in every game you should skip all gens and just focus all totems first.
I personally do not mind ANY perk just have been burnt out on NOED because I have seen a huge spike in its use since Hex Ruin was reworked and 85% of my games have it. I would like to see other perks used.
0 -
Balance DS? You mean the one time use and if you fail you fail is not enough?
NOED is fine though I mean it's okay you do not need to do anything to make it work and can slug everyone and get a speed boost. It does not compare to the one time use DS that stuns for what 3 or 5 seconds. I can see how DS is so much more powerful compare to NOED. ROFL
0 -
Last time I check to active DS you need to take a huge meathook to the back and then HOPE the killer picks you up. I could be wrong though. lol If the killer is the smart they just let you lay like a dumb slug.
I also agree with what you said about NOED. There should be at least some requirement beyond the simple just needing survivors to leave one dull totem. You pointed out how devour hope needs tokens yet there is little to nothing needed for NOED. I wish people would be honest and think about how often does every totem really get cleansed when they play. It is even worst in solo ques unless you make it your only job to try and find them all.
0 -
DS can be prevented you um just let the slug be a slug for 60 seconds. TA-DA you are welcome!
Also DS is the one way to help a poor survivor that is being tunneled from being tunneled at least once. If you aren't tunneling them then the timer will always run out before they can use it anyway. I have had games where I never once got to use DS because the killer would not chase me until the timer was up. ONCE AGAIN TA-DA!!! MAAAAGIC
0 -
Or what if the killer brings an ebony mori are we suppose to " just do totems." You'll lose if you do that especially playing solo. In many cases you have to rush gens.
I know a lot of survivors will rush gens when it is completely unnecessary and actually hurts them because even if the killer doesn't have noed they get less blood points and it's much harder for them pip. If the killer has only downed 2 survivors the entire match there is absolutely no reason to rush the last gen.
But there are many more situations, I think, where rushing gens has to be done or you'll find yourself in a spot where finding the hatch is your only hope of escape.
0 -
You really do not know how NOED works I am guessing. The speed boost ONLY starts once the Dull Totem lights up. You do not get a speed boost until then and that is what he means. There is no warning that the killer has the perk UNTIL the one totem you missed powers up and THEN you get the speed boost and the survivors get the exposed statues.
So I guess HELLO back to you? He is right there is no hint that NOED will be in effect UNTIL it is to late and the killer is slugging people.
0 -
I think you are forgetting Lockers, Adrenaline, Unbreakable, other surviviors and the fact that the killer doesnt have 4 60 second timers in his head and doesnt always remember who has DS and who not in an important situation (example: bodyblocking hook in EGC). Not to mention that you can get multiple people running the same character with the same cosmetics.
1 -
In most my games the survivors are to cowardly to heal a slugged survivor. I am not sure what lockers do in the case of DS. I am dumb sorry.
I guess adrenaline could let you get back up or even unbreakable so you make a point but I also think when it comes down to it NOED has a tiny, not much but a smaller unfair advantage. Yes with DS if the killer lets you stay down you can hope for one of those three things to happen like adrenaline or unbreakable and maybe a survivor will heal you. NOED however like you yourself said has no fair warning until its to late. There is also no real requirement other than just needing a dull totem that is so well hidden.
The only reason I could see DS for any use is when a killer is tunneling you BUT I also think there is many ways around that as well and that is why I do not use DS. I actually do not use really any second chance perks. My most common perks now are Small Game, Spine Chill, Inner Strength, and either Borrowed Time or Kindred. I know they are probably some of the worst picks but I like them and I only use BT to help a survivor if they are camped or tunneled. I like to give them a chance and let me get hooked.
In the end it is all very situational and I guess you are right maybe they could just all together take both perks out? It may be to hard to balance either one. I mean no matter what they do DS will always be what is it. I mean it is only a one time use and if you miss your screwed. If they weaken it anymore.....I guess they could limit the time limit to like 15 seconds but then why even use it. They could even make the bar smaller or invisible and make it a game of roulette. lol
0 -
Well that depends on skill of the surviviors, good surviviors or SWF will pick the guy up as soon as he finishes recovering. DS in a locker means you cant slug them, you can only do a locker grab and get DSed. Amazing.
I dont think it matters if they are EXACTLY the same. These perks work similiar, reward similiar plays, dont require any skill/effort to use, have annoying, partially counterable counterplay and both have a powerful effect that can turn the tide of the game. Both perks have can be countered, but you have to go out of your way because enemy MIGHT have that perk, and you have to play around it even if it its not in the game.
DS is used to counter tunneling, but is also abused by good surviviors who use it as 60s invicibility they can use to do gens. Not to mention that DS actually CAUSES MORE TUNNELING, because killer assumes that EVERYONE HAS DS and tunnels EVERY survivior to trigger their DS early. This is literally the best counter to DS.
I think 60 seconds on DS are fine, but there have to be conditions when DS is immmediately disabled when:
- You are the last survivior that is not dead/slugged/hooked
- Another DS got activated
- You started doing any action (except vaulting and self healing)
- You got caught in a Bear Trap
- 2 other people got downed (-30s from the timer per down)
- TO IMPROVE ANTI TUNNELING PART: timer is stopped while in a chase
As for NOED balance:
You can use NOED only on surviviors you have hooked at least once before it activated.
0 -
DS is more than just "one time use and if you fail" etc.
It needs to be conditional so it's anti-tunnel only. You couldn't be able to go and save someone else on the hook with DS activate. It should deactivate if someone else is hooked or if you are grabbed.
0 -
So, here's where you lose (and I suggest you stop trying). Say the exit gates are opened. EGC has begun. You have someone on the hook and they get saved. They have DS for 60 seconds. Even if you slug that person, they have time to get to a door. What's the counter play? Oh wait, there isn't one. They either crawl out the door, because they have 60 seconds to get to either door which is more than enough, or you pick them up and get DS'd. Where's the part where it can be prevents? Go ahead. I'll wait. (I'll literally be waiting forever).
Also - do you know how many times I can hook someone, then go hook 2 other people, find the 1st person at a generator...and they still have DS? I hooked 2 other people? How were they tunneled? Your entire logic is broken. So just stop, lol. You only serve to hurt your own ego here, cause you have no real point to make other than shameless defense of your little crutch perk.
Good, now that we've established that your logic is broken, you can stop attempting. :) Just back away, bud. You started a debate you can't win.
"Last time I checked, you have to take a huge meathook to the back"...wait, so you have to get caught? Which means...losing a chase? Which if I'm mistaken...is a failure on your part? You have to fail to get your get out of jail free perk? K.
1 -
Nope. You lose Malicious and Gatekeeper points, regardless of your perk selection o3o.
0 -
So you are going on the idea that you couldn't manage to get a kill and the exit gate is now open? It sounds more like a skill level failure on your part. I see many games where people with DS get killed way before the exit gate is open. Also I guess if we make up scenarios anyone can prove a point. I guess my turn to make up a fake made believe scenario.
STORY TIME!- It is a cold and dark night and I hear the screams of the survivors. I go and run one down and she looks at me praying I don't whack her in the head but I do it with a gleeful look on my face. I hook her and screams can be heard for miles and she struggles and cries. A fellow survivor comes to her rescue and I run to the hook and even with her teammate in front of her I refuse to slug here because I want the survivor that gof off the hook. I catch her and slug her and I am smiling because I know she is mine but I pick her up and I feel a cold metal thing stab my back. SHE IS FREE. I fall to my knees screaming 'WHY GOD WHY?!".-STORY TIME OVER
Heck let's even go with your Story. STORY TIME-You slug the survivor when the exit gate opens and hook her. Her partners get her off the hook and you go and hit her but DUN DUN DUN.....she has borrowed time....now you come to the forums to cry BT is to strong now. ROFL Wait sorry wrong story.....I mean she gets slugged and you go to pick her up and DS procs but she missed and now you get to hook her again.
You are acting like DS is a 100% hit chance. I have seen players miss by accident. You are talking about DS in the most perfect of setups. If it was as great as you claim I would think it would be used more often but I am lucky if one survivor in my game has it.
But you are right this is a most pointless debate because at the end of the day Perks are only as good as the setup they are in. We can keep making story time though to make the perk and or point better fit our points.
0 -
I really like your ideas but the limits on DS almost makes it near impossible to use. I mean It can be abused very much especially by SWF. I personally do not use it and if I play survivor I use Borrowed Time to give the Survivor a chance and Killer mains think that is to OP because they can get out the exit gate with that as well. I agree though but I think in the end it is more the SWF teams that are breaking the Survivors perks and making them to OP because in solo que we are lucky to know what each other have for perks. It is impossible to organize such annoying setups. I could be wrong but the Solo Que are gonna get crapped on because of SWF abusing perks.
I think your NOED idea is pretty good but maybe a sign that it is in effect as well before the end game like every other totem. Then again it is meant to be a HELLO I AM HERE perk. lol =)
0 -
You are right about the characters running same cosmetics and stuff but I guess because I play Solo Que this almost never happens. I also play on the Switch so SWF is not an option and I have 1000k hours before anyone says I haven't played enough. On the Switch I am lucky to see DS on one survivor at all and body blocking does sometimes occur but that is more when the killer is tunneling a survivor and we just want to save the survivor and give them a chance to get any points. Most the time survivors on the switch just stay out of the way. I am sorry ahead of time I think I am just having a different experience then others.
0 -
Excuse me, but then that the survivor dies automatically if he does not interact with the killer, it is very common to find mushrooms that only oppress m1 with urban evasion.
0 -
Well the point of my DS change is to limit its use to ONLY anti tunneling, and this chamge would work perfectly for that
And yes it can be abused, for example by bodyblocking, taunting the killer to chase you or making noise (vaults, disarming traps, etc). I was thinking about limiting those things too (for example reduce the timer when location is revealed), but then I remembered that DS is Laurie's perk, the same survivior that has OoO, so this change would make no sense. So yes, you can still taunt the killer to tunnel you, but tou have to do so by doing useeless things (making noise, tbagging), you cant force the killer to tunnel you by doing objectives anymore. And I think its fair.
SWF are a problem, and some changes are needed, but we are talking only about DS and maybe NOED here. I think the DS change I thought of limits its use in SWF, as you cant just genrush with DS on.
I think NOED being invisible is fine, this is the uniqueness of this perk. So as long as NOED is not something that comes out of nowhere without any effort from the killer, I think its fine.
0 -
I play on PC and watch PC streamers, and this happens fairly often. DS has currently about 50% usage, which means there are 2 DSes in a game on average.
Also Im not saying that all these things happen at once all the time, Im just saying that there are multiple ways to abuse DS amd tjere os a high chance of at least one of them being used. I dont know how it works on switch though.
0 -
I think you didnt understand the poimt of his "story"
- DS at exit gates is uncounterable. This is true, even if you dont tunnel the person with DS and go for everyone else, DS is still active for 60 SECONDS and this is half of the EGC timer, and more than enoigh time to crawl out of the gate. So DS user can be the last person alive/not hooked, but still can hit you with DS.
- Not tunneling does not disable DS. This one is obvious, you can ignore the guy with DS, catch, hook or maybe even kill everyone else, then find the DS user genrushing and DS can still be active.
1
