Whats the purpose of an Ebony Mori?
I really don't understand how Mori's fit into the balance of the game. As a survivor you get hooked then immediately tunneled and killed. This results in an automatic depip for the Mori'd survivor. And most likely the killer won't pip either. Also the balance of the rest of the game is thrown off for the 3 remaining survivors where they realize that they are probably playing for the hatch at this point. And for the killer it creates a much lower skilled condition for the win.
I don't see what the counter balance for a Mori is supposed to be. Even if you are good enough to run a killer for a bit you are still injured after being unhooked assuming an equally skilled opponent the killer will hit you eventually, even if it's just through you being out positioned or the killer blood lusting you around an unsafe pallet.
I understand that survivors have keys which I also feel is a problem and you could look at a Mori as an overall balance across multiple matches vs key escapes. But I really feel that every match should at least be balanced so one side can't give themselves an overwhelming advantage from the start. Kinda reminds me of the original brand new part and how overpowered those were.
I really don't see killers tunnel down a survivor with a Mori right off the bat very often but when they do its like were not even playing the same game any longer. I just don't get it. The animation is kinda cool I guess. I just feel the condition for using a Mori is too low. I couldn't imagine the state of the game if all killers decided to cash in their stock piles of Mori's with the intention of tunneling down the first survivor they find and Moriing them.
Maybe to balance against Mori's the devs could create an offering for survivor that would allow them to kobe out of the entities grasp as they were being lifted into the sky. And the ebony version of this would allow all survivors to do this one time each.
I don't know maybe I'm missing something about Mori's. I would love to hear a logical and reasonable argument for them being as strong as they are right now.
In case if anyone is wondering I play both sides. I have about 600 hours in the game with more than half of those as killer. Also the only time I use a Mori is for dailies and I use yellow ones for that which I see no problem with.
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The original point of things like moris (and all ultra-rares, really) was that they confer a massive advantage for one game, but only very rarely. They were never supposed to be balanced in the context of a single match - that's the entire purpose of their design - but they were supposed to be "balanced" over many matches because you could only use them very rarely. They're supposed to shake things up, disturb the balance, keep things interesting and unpredictable and, therefore, fun.
In my opinion, the only problem with ultra-rares like moris is not their design, but the fact that they're not actually "ultra rare". They're too easy to get, so they crop up far too often in matches. But the reason I hold that opinion is because I don't believe it matters if every single match isn't begun on even footing - in fact, I quite like having overpowered but super rare mechanics to shake things up once in a while, because I myself find that fun. DBD isn't a MOBA, and that's okay, because that doesn't necessarily mean it's badly designed.
But if you would prefer that every match be fair from the beginning and dislike moris on that basis, that's also totally reasonable and I can respect that too.
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They are there to balance out 4-man SWF on voicecomms stacked up with meta-perks, and items. Unfortunately some killers also take out their frustrations on innocent solo-survivor groups, but survivors do the same as well.
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I'm not sure if you know this but you actually used to be able to Mori people without having hooked them first. I would assume that it was just a little treat to make killers feel very powerful every once in a while. Considering how incredibly survivor-sided the game was for the first few months, this kind of makes sense.
BNPs also used to instantly repair an entire generator and insta-heals were a thing since just recently. My guess would be that these features were supposed to make games unpredictable and shake up the game a bit.
However, I totally agree with you: The game should be able to be interesting without regularly being unbalanced. I think that Items, Add-ons and Offerings should be pretty weak while every killer's base kit should safice to make them strong. Perks should also be more similarly strong than they are right now. However, this is just my oppinion and there are also a few good reasons for the other side.
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It's unknown if it was to shake things up or to help balance things out honestly.
2016 was a bit wacky, people could fast vault next to windows with 0 momentum, you could put bear traps under hooked Survivors feet, you couldn't kick Generators (apparently), BNPs insta-repaired gens, Mori's insta mori'ed people, "infinites" were actually infinite because of the blood lust mechanic not existing yet, double pallets, shack had 2 windows, etc.
All in all, I do agree that the mori mechanic should've been something to entice Killers to try said animations out, or give them an alternative option when playing in-game. I can't 100% say this is why they were created, but I can't really think of any other reason why.
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Ok so I see arguments for why Mori's were originally created in 2016 but I still don't see any valid argument for Mori's now in Feb of 2020. They are single handedly the only thing in the game that cuts ones sides objective down by two thirds. Assuming equally skilled players on both sides there isn't any counter to them at all. With Devour hope you can break the totem. With keys survivors still need to finish a set amount of gens depending on how many survivors are alive. And if two are dead and two escape hatch with 3 gens done, its still a tie for the killer and survivors still had to do more than half their objective. Don't get me wrong I think keys are an issue as well but thats a different discussion.
And as far as SWF on comms goes they still have to do the full objective. Yes they have a huge buff with no downside but thats really a different issue as well.
The Devs have stated recently that they have not been creating perks for survivors that increase gen speed basically because they feel that would be unfair to the other side by decreasing the survivors objective and would upset the balance too much. (I cant remember the exact quote sorry) But with this in mind it doesn't feel like ebony mori's fit now in 2020 either. Especially after the devs have been pushing so hard for more fair balanced matches. With examples of the buffs, nrefs and reworks of killers like Nurse, Spirit, Freddy and Doctor. And the nerfs of insta heals, Brand new part, Mettle of Man and Ruin and so on. All of which were admittedly powerful but none of which upsets the balance of a Match the same way an Ebony Mori does.
If the goal is to create a huge imbalance just to shake things up then in my opinion that is a terrible mindset for the style of the game. And is contradictory to the mindset of the reasoning behind the balance changes to everything else. Dbd might be a casual game but I cant think of any other multiplayer game off the top of my head where a player can start a match or round and give themselves such a huge advantage. The only reason why I think the imbalance of Mori's hasn't been fixed yet is because most killers realize how imbalanced they are and just refuse to use them. Or at least refuse to use them in way that destroys the balance. So it seems the Devs are relying on the good will of killers for balancing this offering.
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They exist because the devs want them to, that's about as much as anyone can say here.
Mori's have been in the game since 2016 with multiple animations dedicated to them, the concept of Ebony mori's are considered highly controversial as well, so it's entirely unknown why they keep them around. I for one don't really like Ebony mori's, hence why I never use them since I believe them to be unfair, but Ivories are a different concept, I personally believe Ivory mori's to be a lot more reasonable than their 4 man counter-part.
With that being said though, your guess is as good as mine to why this offering still exists in DBD, could it be because of it's history? Because of the time put into the animations? Because they want Killers to enjoy killing Survivors through other means? Who knows, it's entirely unknown unless a dev comes in and tells you themselves. We can't really explain or justify why they exist, they just do.
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Edited: Ok so I see arguments for Mori's in the state of the game during 2016 but I still don't see any valid argument for Mori's now in Feb of 2020. They are single handedly the only thing in the game that cuts ones sides objective down by two thirds. Assuming equally skilled players on both sides there isn't any counter to them at all. With Devour hope you can break the totem. With keys survivors still need to finish a set amount of gens depending on how many survivors are alive. And if two are dead and two escape hatch with 3 gens done, its still a tie for the killer and survivors still had to do more than half their objective. Don't get me wrong I think keys are an issue as well but thats a different discussion.
And as far as SWF on comms goes they still have to do the full objective. Yes they have a huge buff with no downside but thats really a different issue as well.
The Devs have stated recently that they have not been creating perks for survivors that increase gen speed basically because they feel that would be unfair to the other side by decreasing the survivors objective and would upset the balance too much. (I cant remember the exact quote sorry) But with this in mind it doesn't feel like ebony mori's fit now in 2020 either. Especially after the devs have been pushing so hard for more fair balanced matches. With examples of the buffs, nerfs and reworks of killers like Nurse, Spirit, Freddy and Doctor. And the nerfs of insta heals, Brand new part, Mettle of Man and Ruin and so on. All of which were admittedly powerful but none of which upsets the balance of a Match the same way an Ebony Mori does.
If the goal is to create a huge imbalance just to shake things up then in my opinion that is a terrible mindset for the style of the game. And is contradictory to the mindset of the reasoning behind the balance changes to everything else. Dbd might be a casual game but I cant think of any other multiplayer game off the top of my head where a player can start a match or round and give themselves such a huge advantage. The only reason why I think the imbalance of Mori's hasn't been fixed yet is because most killers realize how imbalanced they are and just refuse to use them. Or at least refuse to use them in way that destroys the balance. So it seems the Devs are relying on the good will of killers for balancing this offering.
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Lol yeah I guess your right.
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Maybe we'll see more information on it idk, we'll have to see.
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I agree with FireHazard. "We can't really explain or justify why they exist, they just do."
I really like this quote from the OP. "The animation is kinda cool I guess. I just feel the condition for using a Mori is too low."
I think the Memento Mori Kill animations are very cool. I'd like to find a fair way to increase the frequency of Mori Kills.
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I mean, a lot of people agree that Ivories are more fair than Ebonies due to 1 dying is better than 4, it's reasonable and lets you kill 1 person at anytime.
It's not entirely balanced but it's better than having 4 Survivors die after their first hook, especially if the Killer is insanely for example.
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I'm sure most people can agree that the Ivory Memento Mori (one kill) is more fair than the Ebony Memento Mori (four kills). It's basic math.
I find the Cypress Memento Mori to be nearly perfect from a balance standpoint. People have found instances where the Cypress Memento Mori isn't fair. They are mostly rare edge cases. I believe we could make the Cypress Memento Mori a standard feature in Dead by Daylight.
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I... wouldn't push it that far to make Cypress Memento Mori's a standard, or if you mean base-kit than no.
The point of Mori's is an alternative way to Kill Survivors, that's about it. Obviously most people have Ebonies because it's four Killers vs Ivories 1, which is why a lot of people want Ebonies to be removed and Ivories to be the standard. Cypress is the most fair of the 3 because it just rewards you for a 4k or at least killing the last person alive that you downed yourself.
All in all, we don't really know if Ebonies will ever be removed or not. If they don't than it doesn't entirely matter since you rarely see them in-game anyways...
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May I ask how you arrived at your decision? You disagree with making the Cypress Memento Mori a standardized feature or base-kit feature.
I'm simply trying to gain more insight. Memento Mori Kills are something I have a great interest in. Could you elaborate on the following scenarios?
A] "it just rewards you for a 4k" (The Trial is over.)
B] "... or at least killing the last person alive that you downed yourself"? (The Trial is over if the Gates aren't open and the Hatch is closed.)
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I arrived at that decision because a Mori isn't supposed to be a base-kit feature, a Mori, no matter how scenario specific it is, is an offer that Killers can use to have an alternative means of Killing Survivors BESIDES the traditional sacrificial method.
Having it as a base-kit feature isn't entirely broken, since it's a Cypress Memento Mori we're talking about, but that wasn't it's intentional feature since it's an offering from the get-go. If it became a base-kit feature, it wouldn't really add anything since you'll still get the same amount of points (probably because of EGC) and/or the same results... The only difference is how you kill them and some players don't really care about that.
as for the scenarios
- [Scenario A] ("It just rewards you for a 4k") [Answer] (A Cypress Memento Mori is just an alternative way to kill the last Survivor in the match. This can be done by everyone leaving the last Survivor to be mori'ed, which than activates the mori prompt (not before), or as an alternative reward for 4king the entire team. That's what I meant by this, since that's all a Cypress does by design.)
- [Scenario B] ("or at least killing the last person alive that you downed yourself") [Answer] (What I meant was explained in Scenario A, if all the Survivors escape leaving the last Survivor to be hooked, since they need to literally escape for the Cypress to activate, than you're given an alternative option to kill the Survivor that you downed yourself and a sort of "reward" or side-option, instead of just hooking them and that's it.)
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If you don't mind, I just want to clear up a few things. As I said before, Memento Mori Kills are important to me. I want to gain more insight into your point of view.
1] "a Mori isn't supposed to be a base-kit feature" & "wasn't it's intentional feature since it's an offering from the get-go"
Isn't Dead by Daylight is a live game where things are constantly changing? Are the Memento Mori untouchable?
2] "Having it as a base-kit feature isn't entirely broken, since it's a Cypress Memento Mori we're talking about"
If it isn't broken, couldn't we allow for such a change?
3] "If it became a base-kit feature, it wouldn't really add anything since you'll still get the same amount of points (probably because of EGC) and/or the same results... The only difference is how you kill them and some players don't really care about that." & "since that's all a Cypress does by design" & "side-option, instead of just hooking them and that's it"
I really like the turn of phrase that someone else used when discussing this topic. It could "end the game with a bit of flair". I'm not concerned with Blood Point values since they've been adjusted many times.
If you'll still have the same results, why would this be a negative change?
Some players may not really care about Memento Mori Kills, but I count myself among those that do.
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Let me finish this up so we're 100% clear... i'll answer all three of these below in their own sub-section like before.
- [Number 1] ("a Mori isn't supposed to be a base-kit feature" & "wasn't it's intentional feature since it's an offering from the get-go" Isn't Dead by Daylight is a live game where things are constantly changing? Are the Memento Mori untouchable?)
- [Answer] (The Memento Mori's are not untouchable, since the Ruin change has proven an age old concept can be changed, but the Mori concept is so controversial that it's hard to really touch it without having one side be displeased with the change. Even the Ruin change still has a lot of backlash behind it... Most players agree Ivories are a reasonable alternative to Ebonies, but removing Ebonies would for sure cause a stir somewhere in the community. Is a change possible though? Absolutely. Will we see one soon? I doubt it at this current time.)
- [Number 2] ("Having it as a base-kit feature isn't entirely broken, since it's a Cypress Memento Mori we're talking about" If it isn't broken, couldn't we allow for such a change?)
- [Answer] (My entire point was to show you why it would be pointless to add this as a base-kit feature. If the last Survivor is dead no matter what, where the other Survivors leave them in the end, than having them die on a hook or die by your hands doesn't add anything. If anything, it most likely gives less points since an EGC sacrifice (I believe) gives more points with the other sacrifice bonus than killing them yourself with a base-kit option. Besides that though, the change doesn't add anything except an alternative option to kill the last person. If it's added, than cool. If it isn't, than it doesn't entirely matter since the offering exists to do it anyways.)
- [Number 3] ("If it became a base-kit feature, it wouldn't really add anything since you'll still get the same amount of points (probably because of EGC) and/or the same results... The only difference is how you kill them and some players don't really care about that." & "since that's all a Cypress does by design" & "side-option, instead of just hooking them and that's it" If you'll still have the same results, why would this be a negative change?)
- [Answer] (It wouldn't be a negative change, a negative change isn't the same as a pointless one, that's why I said "If it became a base-kit feature, it wouldn't really add anything since you'll still get the same amount of points" since the concept itself neither takes or gives anything, it just gives an alternative option at the end. I suppose for players like you it would be enjoyable to have it, which in that case it does add something, but for some and/or most who don't care either way, it seems rather... meaningless to add I guess. Like I also said in Number 2 though, if it's added than cool, if it's not than it didn't matter anyways since the offering already exists.)
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Thank you for taking the time to answer all of my questions, FireHazard. I think I have a much better understanding now.
Incentives matter. My proposal does not seem overly rewarding or penalizing to you. For you, it simply doesn't matter either way. I can accept that.
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I'm glad we met a middle ground at least.
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