Justified Pig Change
Forget outright buffing The Pig, i've seen so many posts talking about all these weird and unnecessary buffs to Pig that I had to make a proper post myself about the one change that absolutely must happen. I've posted this as a reply in the comments to Pig ideas numerous times so it isn't a completely brand new of an idea; plus i'm definitely not the first person to suggest this either:
Pig should not be allowed to see her Jigsaw Box auras. It makes possible a style of play that is the most obnoxious thing you could vs against. Whether it's used by her to proxy camp a Box she knows is the one one/mulitiple survivor's need, or it's used as a tool to find easy targets for easy hooks.
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Pig is already really good in most loops, a guarenteed hit if she mindgames her dash well. So, do nothing to her but her ability to see Jigsaw Box auras. This obviously means her Amanda's Secret add-on needs changing also; this is simple, make it something to do with her dash attack instead:
- Moderately decreases the Ambush Attack charge time (stacks)
There you go, possible adjustment to Pig that would make the QOL vs her improve drastically but not do anything to negatively impact her gameplay. Since RBT's are a slowdown tool and shouldn't be anything else. No more holding the Box hostage for a cheap head-pop etc etc.
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I would accept that in exchange for the Reverse Bear Trap death timer being reduced to five seconds.
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You've obviously never played Pig if you think that she's good in loops. She's a worse Spirit when it comes to loops, and by that I mean you CAN mind-game but less effectively and WAY more obviously. As for the auras, just no. Seeing those box auras tells me which hooks to avoid. It tells me how long that a survivor will possibly have to get their RBT off.
GOOD Pigs know not to target people with a trap, unless they're begging for it. It is just something that you learn over time.
There are just so many small things that can be done to make Pig a top-tier killer, but until the devs look at all the requests for Pig love and act on them, then people are going to suggest ways of making her better. It'd be nice to see a non-chase focused, non-instant down killer be within the top tier of power for once.
After all the nerfs that have been introduced too, then simply put we need a lot of improvements to her before we start to look at adding more negatives to her kit.
Also your change for Amanda's Letter is going in the wrong direction. Increasing the charge time is making it take longer to charge up, not less which is what I assume you meant. Or change the word "speed" with "time".
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She's a worse Spirit when it comes to loops
Dude, you just blew my mind. Ambush is just a bad version of Yamaoka's Haunting.
HAS PIG BEEN THE BUBBA TO SPIRIT'S HILLBILLY THIS WHOLE TIME
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######### no.
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@PigMainClaudette yeah I meant decrease charge time. I said it was a change for Amanda's Secret, not Letter.
I said Pig is really good in 'most' loops, her Ambush makes short work of them if they stick around, you can also fake it out to push them away from it etc etc (I'm sure I don't need to list all the plays that make her loop game strong to a Pig main, right?)
And i'm aware that as Pig you should prioritise non trapped survivor's, since I spoke about how the current function of her Jigsaw Box aura ability is commonly abused by obnoxious players. This was a QOL change, not a buff nor a nerf. I'm seeing loads of ideas on here on how to push her in a stronger direction, but no one is addressing the annoying mechanics of one of the most fun killers in DBD. The fact she can hold the game hostage for players in specific situations is ridiculous. The Devs already changed something like this once by making the stairs to basement wider, since Pig was able to hostage people down there until their timer expired.
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The letter and secret are two items that I do NOT care for, so I don't pay attention to them. I only use dash add-ons. Occasionally gears.
As for loops, I've started learning the crouch mind-games again as I've taken a break from killer for Archives and poor matchmaking, but I do see he use in her Dash as part of a well-planned mind game. It was more of a "compared to Spirit, Freddy, Doctor, Nurse" kind of loop potential.
It would be nice to see people not tunnel trapped shrvivors and boosting our stats, though.
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@PigMainClaudette I don't really like comparisons in dbd; every killer has stuff going for them that's unique.
Her Letter is one of those add-ons that boosts her Ambush and Crouch power. But atm, it inadvertantly boosts the obnoxious Box patrol style of play. If they were to remove auras of Boxes for the Pig, then it would be a sole chase add-on, and a very strong one at that.
Her Secret is the one that hides the auras of Boxes from her, but gives her a notification when it starts being searched instead, and then shows the survivor's aura post removal of the RBT. So atm, it's kinda pointless, because it gives you intel you don't need as Pig. I don't want explosions appearing on random parts of the map possibly distracting from chases or gen patrols. And then who cares about seeing their aura after it's off, because all they're gonna do is heal or go to a gen, with either of those it means they're off gens or are about to be found again anyway.
I adore Pig, and just want her, and indeed all killers to have the best QOL.
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She needs to see the aura of her boxes. So no. She could use a speed buff while crouched, though. And make it less likely for survivors to get the RBT off if its supposed to be a slowdown mechanic. I like the idea of key pieces. Maybe have 5 boxes (and 5 traps by default), and a survivor needs 2 keys to get the trap off. Increase the timer to make it fair, but at least then survivors won't be getting traps off their head 15 seconds after they come off the hook.
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@KingFrost Why does she need to see auras of Jigsaw Boxes?
And giving her a speed buff in Crouch would make her Ambush Attack broken as F. She already has to mindgame her movement very slightly to get a dash hit, having faster Crouch would just make it stupid how stong that dash would be.
Yeah they could make it a multi key Box search thing to get it off.
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She needs to see the aura of her boxes so she can patrol them if necessary. I mean Trapper sees the aura of his traps, and even gets notification when they get trapped. So I don't see why she shouldn't see the aura of her boxes.
And no, increased speed while crouched wouldn't be broken at all. She's far too slow while crouched right now. She's slower than nurse while crouched! That's ridiculous.
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Why would she need to patrol them? The survivor's getting them off are of no concern to her. Unless you mean for the meme endgame plays? In which case, that's a meme, why would you want to let the game go that far on purpose?
And Crouch wise, her stealth ability is nice when you get a grab, but that isn't strictly what it's for. It's mainly used for Ambushes. If you buff her speed just so you can be quicker crouching around the map, imagine how fast she'll be in a loop.
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Because it is to the Pig's benefit to catch Trapped Survivors with their pants down. Jigsaw Boxes are supposed to leave the Survivor vulnerable. You don't tunnel the crap out of them, but you DO include the boxes in your gen patrol route to catch them by surprise. In addition, if you catch a Trapped Survivor with BBQ, you can also catch them with their pants down by predicting which box they are going to. Reverse Bear Traps are not meant to give Survivors the same level of anti-tunneling assurance as Decisive Strike. If you have a good shot to quickly knock them down, you go for it, because a dead Survivor is better than a Trapped Survivor.
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@TAG just because you wouldn't see the aura of the Jigsaw Box doesn't mean you won't know where they are. You'll still see them on the map as you patrol/chase. And if you're using BBQ, you'll see the survivor performing the search animation for it. Plus, if you see a RBT survivor on BBQ running with a determined direction, why would you target them and not the people within your range or on the gens you see others repairing from BBQ? If you don't intend on tunneling a survivor with a RBT on their head, why do you need to include the Box in your patrol route? You'd hear the beeping/click-clack noise of it if they are near you anyway. Most Jigsaw Boxes spawn near gens anyway. And the ones that don't are typically in dead-zones (thinking Backwater Swamp), where you don't ideally want to waste your time rotating towards.
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It makes it considerably harder for you to catch them while patroling, though. And as-is, BBQ lets you see a running Trapped Survivor and predict where they're going. It's not just for catching someone already searching on a box. It is up to the Pig to figure out how to efficiently make the most of the information they have. If they see a Trapped Survivor going possibly toward a box, and no one else has shown up, it makes sense to cut off the Trapped Survivor if it isn't super out of the way.
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@TAG you can predict them even if you couldn't see the Jigsaw Box aura. But there's a difference between stumbling across them and downing/grabbing them for a hook while they search it, and then actively including the Boxes in your patrols. The whole reason why I say the Box aura should be removed, to stop Pigs going for the cheap strategies. Almost compares to Plague being able to see Uncorrupted Fountains so they can gain intel on where someone may go to if they want to cleanse, it's cheap and unneeded for the killer's gameplay; so Pig seeing her Boxes makes minimal sense, and ultimately encourages and allows for the obnoxious style of Pig play. 'Why chase fresh survivors when you can eliminate easy RBT survivor's?' "Accidently" finding a survivor with a RBT isn't skillful or fun.
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I just recently came back to DBD after more than a year away. After reading about some of the new killers and perks i was intrigued to play again. Especially after reading about the pig. I loved the idea of forcing players to take on a test to survive. But i was disappointed when i realized how poorly her reverse traps were designed.
I disagree with 'fixing' any killer by reworking an addon and making it required for them to perform. Addons are supposed to be extra playstyle morphing items, not required equipment to be viable.
The problem with the pig that i have is that her reverse beartraps are basically useless. You probably took one survivor out of the game for.... 45 seconds on average? I have yet to see anyone die from the beartrap at all, unless you tunnel them and don't allow them to search boxes. Which is just bad game design. You basically have made a killer who has incentive to TUNNEL on one player. It feels cruel to play that way, and unfun to play against.
If you want the pig to follow along with her actual canon character. Jigsaw puzzles in the SAW movies are supposed to be difficult, something you don't want to do, and usually involves sacrifice. In DBD a Jigsaw puzzle means: Walking up to a box, waiting 3 seconds, and pressing Spacebar.
You literally can't fail the skillcheck. There was no test, there was no puzzle, there was just a little bit of timewasting.
You should make the players have to actually do some kind of test or puzzle. There should be a chance of them failing and not getting the trap off fast enough if they mess up. Perhaps once they DO get the key, they have to perform a string of skillchecks that are difficult (Similar to when you are in madness 3 from doctor) to actually use the key successfuly. Or perhaps force them to do something they dont WANT to do to save themselves. Maybe there could be all kinds of tests, and the survivor doesn't know which one it will be until they get to the box.
Her reverse beartraps are her defining power, and that is the one that needs to shine to make her stand out. Her ambush ability is neat, but that isn't her defining trait. The only real problem with her ambush is that it makes a sound when you ready it and any survivor can hear you getting ready to ambush from around a wall.
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I've seen a number of players die to RBT's. Some who head out the exit gates, others who don't get them off in time. They're a good slow-down tool, but as I said they could be vastly improved. Pig needs a few buffs. She's not quite down as far as Legion and Clown, but she's not far.
Also it's a totally legit tactic to go after survivors with RBT's. Chase them off, to make them find a DIFFERENT box, so they waste more time for example. Pressures them, and makes them keep searching, extending their time off gens.
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you can predict them even if you couldn't see the Jigsaw Box aura
No you cannot. If you cannot see the end destination they are going to, you are making a wild guess.
But there's a difference between stumbling across them and downing/grabbing them for a hook while they search it, and then actively including the Boxes in your patrols
Actively including the boxes in your patrols is a GOOD THING for the Pig, not a bad thing.
The whole reason why I say the Box aura should be removed, to stop Pigs going for the cheap strategies.
Those "cheap" strategies are also BAD strategies that will cost the Pig the game. You are trying to remove bad strategies and hurting the Pig in the process with the stuff she should be doing.
Almost compares to Plague being able to see Uncorrupted Fountains so they can gain intel on where someone may go to if they want to cleanse
The reason Plague can't see the Uncorrupted Fountains is so that she doesn't waste time going to a Fountain that she can't use. There really wouldn't be anything wrong with letting Plague see the fountain locations at all times, since a Survivor only spends half as much time at a Pool of Devotion as they would at a Jigsaw Box and only needs to go to one Pool instead of potentially several boxes.
'Why chase fresh survivors when you can eliminate easy RBT survivor's?' "Accidently" finding a survivor with a RBT isn't skillful or fun.
Because fresh Survivors are the ones on the gens, and if the "easy" RBT Survivor is NOT easy, you are wasting both your time and your RBTs' stall power trying to get them. The skill lies in being able to juggle the Survivors on the gen and the Survivors trying to get boxes off. Spend too much time with the Trapped Survivor(s), and the Traps aren't doing anything meaningful. Don't bother going after them at all, and you give them free reign to get the Traps off knowing that you won't be an issue in the meantime, which can mean that they get the Trap off faster than if you had made it at least somewhat of a pain in the ass.
Making a nerfed version of one of the worst add-ons in the entire game basekit is absurd. You don't see people trying to advocate making a weakened version of Waterlogged Shoe basekit to make basement rescues against the Hag less of a pain.
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@TAG that end part of my previous response was a rhetorical, sarcastic question that was mocking the current mentality of most Pig players in this current period of DBD. And talking about 'bad strategies', these can work very well; if multiple people have active/inactive RBT's on their head, then stopping the Pig strategise about which boxes to patrol and block just so they can be a cheap troll is the point of this whole thread. And no, it doesn't take skill to juggle someone who isn't a threat to the current objectives whilst preventing other people do them, it's obnoxious, because as I said previously, most Boxes spawn nearby to gen areas, a Pig knowing this is going be extra cheap in their defence of the gen/Box. Calling it strategy is just masking what is actually abusive game hostaging.
My Plague comparison was to point out, if she knows where a survivor needs to go to Cleanse, then if they're in that area, she will have intel on where they most likely will be. Atm Plague loses a survivor and does not know what they are most likely doing, but if she did see her Pools she would have a very strong idea as to where this injured target may have gone off to. This is the same with Pig, a Pig knows the survivor is desperate to get the RBT off, and thus starts casually patrolling the Boxes in hopes of stumbling onto them to 'skillfully' delay them on their search. It isn't skill, mate, and deluding yourself that it is just tells me you may enjoy the cheaper part of Pig's current gameplay.
The add-on is indeed a crap one, and changing it is good. However, making it basekit would not hurt good Pig players. In what world would a GOOD Pig ever need to bother finding RBT survivors. There are perks that give you solid intel, use them. If you find it annoying tracking or predicting survivor's with just game knowledge alone, then use perks to aid this; not an overlooked, cheap mechanic of the killer's power.
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that end part of my previous response was a rhetorical, sarcastic question that was mocking the current mentality of most Pig players in this current period of DBD
And my response was a legitimate answer to your rhetorical question.
multiple people have active/inactive RBT's on their head, then stopping the Pig strategise about which boxes to patrol and block just so they can be a cheap troll is the point of this whole thread
What makes that a tactic for a "cheap troll?" That's just sound strategy. That's like saying it's cheap using A Nurse's Calling to go after someone healing off Sloppy/Thana because they're busy not doing the objective so you should leave them alone. Part of the purpose of having them stand still at a Box is to make them easier to approach. That's part of why the Gear add-ons exist to increase the time spent at a box (in addition to increasing the time it takes to get off a box).
And no, it doesn't take skill to juggle someone who isn't a threat to the current objectives whilst preventing other people do them
Um, yes it does? Juggling is just a skill Killers should have. The fact that some Survivors have Traps on their head doesn't change that. See the previous "Nurse's Calling/Sloppy/Thana" example.
Calling it strategy is just masking what is actually abusive game hostaging.
The fact that you call it "abusive game hostaging" says it all to me. Game hostaging is a reportable offense, but there's no way you're gonna get a report made based on Pig keeping Survivors off boxes taken seriously.
My Plague comparison was to point out, if she knows where a survivor needs to go to Cleanse, then if they're in that area, she will have intel on where they most likely will be. Atm Plague loses a survivor and does not know what they are most likely doing, but if she did see her Pools she would have a very strong idea as to where this injured target may have gone off to. This is the same with Pig, a Pig knows the survivor is desperate to get the RBT off, and thus starts casually patrolling the Boxes in hopes of stumbling onto them to 'skillfully' delay them on their search.
That is 100% intentional on the Pig's part. That is why they made an add-on to deliberately remove those auras: to mix up how the Pig approaches Survivors (misguided as it was).
It isn't skill, mate, and deluding yourself that it is just tells me you may enjoy the cheaper part of Pig's current gameplay.
It is when you can properly do it without losing the gens.
The add-on is indeed a crap one, and changing it is good. However, making it basekit would not hurt good Pig players.
These two statements feel contradictory to me. "It is good to change a crap add-on, but it is also good to strip that add-on of all its upside, turn it into something (more) actively harmful, and force it onto the Pig as basekit."
In what world would a GOOD Pig ever need to bother finding RBT survivors.
In a world where Reverse Bear Traps currently do not offer enough pressure to dissuade a Trapped Survivor from repairing gens anyways and deliberately starting the timer on their own Trap.
If you find it annoying tracking or predicting survivor's with just game knowledge alone, then use perks to aid this; not an overlooked, cheap mechanic of the killer's power.
If it were overlooked, it would have been changed long ago. It's not like it would be difficult or time-consuming in the slightest to just turn off Box auras for Pig in base kit and just remove that part of the effect from Amanda's Secret. They don't WANT to make the change you are proposing. And for good reason: It is a wholly unnecessary change that does considerably more harm than good.
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@TAG A legit answer, yes, but used in response to a question making a point about the crappy style of play that is available; it's invalid.
Juggling is a skill, but the style of juggling that this Pig play involves is not skillful; it feeds into the next point I am going to make:
Stopping one/multiple people use an interaction that will result in their death IS holding them hostage. You are wasting their time, as well as trolling them. This was exactly the thing that caused the Basement Stairs to be widened and no longer a body blocking spot. Gameplay Abuse/Trolling is a reportable offense. Just because it's been in the game for so long does not mean it is fine. It has been overlooked by the Devs, clearly. This Pig mechanic is ridiculous and needs an adjustment. Maybe removing auras isn't the sole answer; but it is one that would help improve Pig's QOL.
Contradictory? No. The add-on is useless to run because what it offers uses up a loadout slot better used for something way better like Combat Straps, Tampered Timer etc. Making it basekit, however, wouldn't be an issue since it would no longer require using a slot and also make everything I said that shouldn't be a thing, not be as possible as it is currently.
You're literally saying that a killer needs to locate RBT survivor's because they aren't scared of the timer? Even though, if they're working on a gen while wearing a Trap, you would and should be able to patrol and find them. Therefore making your point moot.
Extending the search time via add-ons is to make it more tense and difficult for survivor's to get the RBT off; meaning more slowdonw. Not intentionally to make it easier for Pig to tunnel and focus secondary-importance targets.
But Nurse's+SB+Thanat isn't a mechanic that's abusable. It's 3 perk slots taken up and relies on survivor's feeding your strategy which they can counter by not healing (or heal in unimportant areas of the map). Pig being able to abuse intel that a survivor NEEDS to do vs her isn't even remotely comparable to that. It is like I said, ABUSABLE. Pig is capable of stopping survivor(s) play properly against her if she chooses to do so.
What considerable harm would it do to Pig that i'm overlooking with this idea?
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Stopping one/multiple people use an interaction that will result in their death IS holding them hostage.
It straight-up is not. Devs have confirmed this many times.
You are wasting their time, as well as trolling them.
Wasting time? Yes. Trolling? Not necessarily. Is it possible to troll them? Sure. Are there legitimate applications to this tactic? Absolutely.
This was exactly the thing that caused the Basement Stairs to be widened and no longer a body blocking spot.
Basement Stairs were widened to make sure Killers could not prevent the game from ever ending, not to prevent Survivors with Reverse Bear Traps from definitely dying. Devs have already said that bodyblocking a Survivor with an active Trap in a corner so the Trap would kill them is not holding the game hostage. Devs have also said that bodyblocking the last Jigsaw Box is also not holding the game hostage.
Gameplay Abuse/Trolling is a reportable offense. Just because it's been in the game for so long does not mean it is fine. It has been overlooked by the Devs, clearly. This Pig mechanic is ridiculous and needs an adjustment. Maybe removing auras isn't the sole answer; but it is one that would help improve Pig's QOL.
I dare you to ask any dev about this. I guarantee that they will tell you that bodyblocking a Survivor with an active Trap is not a reportable offense. Also, I don't think you understand what it means to improve Pig's QoL. What you are suggesting would do the opposite.
Contradictory? No. The add-on is useless to run because what it offers uses up a loadout slot better used for something way better like Combat Straps, Tampered Timer etc. Making it basekit, however, wouldn't be an issue since it would no longer require using a slot and also make everything I said that shouldn't be a thing, not be as possible as it is currently.
The add-on is useless because it makes the Pig WORSE. That is why other people have been trying to either give it an upside worth the loss of Box auras.
You're literally saying that a killer needs to locate RBT survivor's because they aren't scared of the timer? Even though, if they're working on a gen while wearing a Trap, you would and should be able to patrol and find them. Therefore making your point moot.
You are saying that you should ignore Trapped Survivors, and I am explaining why you shouldn't. If you make it so you can't see Box Auras, you are only further decreasing the incentive Survivors have to stop doing gens and search Boxes right away because they know that once the timer starts, they probably do not have to worry nearly as much about you finding them. Being able to see the Boxes would at LEAST give the Pig a way to potentially punish them for ignoring the Trap while it was inactive.
Extending the search time via add-ons is to make it more tense and difficult for survivor's to get the RBT off; meaning more slowdonw. Not intentionally to make it easier for Pig to tunnel and focus secondary-importance targets.
That's what the extra Box add-ons do. The Gear add-ons, meanwhile, give the Pig extra time to capitalize on Survivors working on a Box, increasing the odds of them having to start the search all over.
But Nurse's+SB+Thanat isn't a mechanic that's abusable. It's 3 perk slots taken up and relies on survivor's feeding your strategy which they can counter by not healing (or heal in unimportant areas of the map). Pig being able to abuse intel that a survivor NEEDS to do vs her isn't even remotely comparable to that. It is like I said, ABUSABLE. Pig is capable of stopping survivor(s) play properly against her if she chooses to do so.
The fact that Survivors need to eventually get the Trap off doesn't make it abusable. By that logic, gen defense is abusable because you are stopping Survivors from completing the objective that they NEED to do.
What considerable harm would it do to Pig that i'm overlooking with this idea?
It takes an inconsistent portion of her power and weakens it by making the Reverse Bear Trap less of a threat (by making it less likely that the Survivor will be interrupted while working on Boxes), increasing the chances of a Survivor not respecting it and delaying the stall potential, that Pig desperately needs because she is not a Killer who can afford to lose control of a match even once.
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@TAG Then the Devs clearly are out of touch with this power. If a function can be literally blocked by a killer to bring about a full stop to particular survivor's matches isn't considered hostage holding then they need to open their eyes. It's like downing the last survivor and having hooks right next to you to use but insist on slugging them for the full bleedout timer (when DS isn't in play or active) It's trolling and time wasting. Yeah they'll die eventually, but it wastes their time, ergo holding hostage! Just like old forever Doc was. And countless other examples.
And if the Pig aspect of basement stairs wasn't one of the reasons for the widening of them, then why did they name that as a reason in the livestream back when it happened?
The difference between gen defence and blocking a Box is that survivors can get gens done if they outplay the killer in that situation. You cannot outplay a killer defending a box since you are on a ever-decreasing timer and there is only the one box left to search, she doesn't need to rotate the 3 of them strategically.
It seems we're never gonna agree on anything in this thread, so i'm ending my part in this conversation
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Yeah they'll die eventually, but it wastes their time, ergo holding hostage!
That is by the devs' definition not holding the game hostage. Their specific requirement for the game to be considered hostage holding is that the affected player(s) in question have no out except to DC.
Slugging is also not holding the game hostage by their definition.
And if the Pig aspect of basement stairs wasn't one of the reasons for the widening of them, then why did they name that as a reason in the livestream back when it happened?
If you could show me them saying that, I would gladly admit being wrong on that one.
The difference between gen defence and blocking a Box is that survivors can get gens done if they outplay the killer in that situation.
I had a game in PTB as Deathslinger where the last 3 gens were all close enough that I could pretty much hear any given one being worked on just by walking a few meters toward the triangle center, and all three were tagged by Surveillance. Two of them were within shooting range if I plunked myself between them. The Survivors had zero chance of winning the game (without a Key) because it was literally impossible to start working on a gen without me being able to defend all three. How is that any different?
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