Marth experiment is valid or not?

The only Nurses who won against them were the ones with add-ons for Omega Blink and 3+ blinks with an Ebony Mori on top of them ( which were agreed by almost everyone to be broken and in need of a nerf ).

I didn't saw any base kit Nurse even challenging the Depip Squad, let alone winning.

I literally said these things were agreed to be broken and were nerfed accordingly besides Mori. So you really need to read my comments more carefully.

What I said it wasn't broken was old base kit Nurse, as I never saw one winning against them.

I see so many variations in almost every map. The only map with super static pallets seem to be the indoor ones.

Take the Thompson house for example, or even a killer-sided map like wreckers yard. I have seen some absolutely disgusting set-ups one time, like multiple jungle gyms into the cow tree into shack, and basically worthless set-ups in others; like some empty windows and short wall pallets.

Other than some QoL changes, you're not wrong. Even though it was entirely sarcastic.

Ok buddy :)

Yes, it is easier to analyse small mistakes when you are watching. Those were not small mistakes.

You do not require a brain of a genius to realise that the Nea should not have been running after the killer for 2 minutes. You, as the player, can very well see that you are not doing anything in that situation, that is a very obvious mistake with an equally obvious solution: cease running after the killer and search for a generator.

The self care situation with the team of the Clown game: Self-Care is a waste of time. That should have been known before the match even began, I really do not understand why they were using it.

The Jake of the same game: Again, it is common knowledge that when hit you should use the speed burst to gain as much distance as possible while running to a safe area with a pallet or window or both. Instead, for some reason, Jake decided to vault a window that was just in front of the Clown, barely gaining any distance, plus that window led to a drop of which the stagger denied the rest of the speed burst that was not denied by the vault, then the lack of any nearby assets led them to go down. That is a lack of basic map knowledge and game mechanics.

The Claudette of the Huntress game: We could just say that person had a bad game, everyone makes mistakes.

The Claudette of the Hillbilly game: It should have left the teammate to die. You should not try to save against an instadown killer who is camping the hook, you can just picture how that will go in your head and immediately disregard that idea.

The three gen: Easily avoided, simply tell people to scatter to different areas of the map.

As to the last remark about the killer: Yes, they could have played better, but they did not and the survivors still managed to get themselves killed.

I would say from personal experience that most survivors are indeed not all that great, but that might simply stem from the ranking system being absolute garbage and matching me with whoever while also assigning them to a rank where they do not belong. Even in competitive games such as Overwatch the highest rankings are composed of about 1% of the game's population.

Conclusion: Most survivors are not good players, but that is the nature of every game and everything.

Only regarding the nurse games: I watched every single game they played against nurse. The level of play from all but 1, maybe 2 of these nurse players wasn't even close to red rank skill. It was like pros against beer leaguers. Just based on that I don’t put much stock in the rest of the experiment.

That said, while much in the game has changed, the fact that survivors are able to end games quickly has not.

The major issue with the game (besides maps), is that one mistake or misplay by the killer means a loss against competent survivors (or even incompetent survivors if they just spread out and one survivor has a good first chase).

While I definitely respect the effort out into the experiment, what I'd really like to see is one great red rank killer going against 4 great red rank survivors. That would actually show the game's imbalance.

I did explain how it should be done based on logic, but if you insist I will do so again.

The Nea on the Hag game should have stopped running after the killer for absolutely no reason and gone to a generator.

The Claudette on the Hillbilly game should have left their teammate to die. Really, you do not save in the face of an instadown killer and expect it to go well.

The survivor team on the other Hag game should have scattered to opposing ends of the map to avoid a 3 gen.

The team of the Clown game should not have equipped self care, neither should they have used it instead of repairing generators.

The Jake of the same game, they should have either held a better corner with longer walls (the fence of the church that was just to the side would probably do) or ran away from the area, instead they sat in a doorway and gave the killer a free hit. They should also have just ran in a straight line to a pallet or window far away after being hit instead of taking a vault next to the killer which led into a drop that wasted the speed burst.

The Claudette of the Huntress game should not have ran past pallets into unsafe areas/tiles. But again, this is by far the smallest mistake out of these and can be partially attributed to map RNG.

As I said, I understand that people make mistakes, but aside from the Claudette I listed just above, none of them are small mistakes. They are painfully obvious mistakes that could have been avoided by simply picturing the scenario in your head and making a decision based on that.

BLEH HEH.

Ah, yes, the Nea will disarm the Hag traps with a Med-Kit while the Hag is chasing the Meg and thereby will not be placing any traps of particular importance.

Besides, if you need disarm the traps, you should run to all nearby traps while the Hag is picking up a survivor, then they cannot teleport to any of them and lose all map pressure as they are activated.

You did not even bother to check the game and jumped to insulting someone's knowledge while just jumping past the other points, I do try to be civilised but you do not seem to be inclined to change your view or to provide any constructive argument of your own.

I literally just said what they, I and anyone should do. Many times over.

1: Get on a generator, do not run after the killer for no reason.

2: Go to 1.

3: That is it really.

And if the problem is the traps as you have said (And it is not, because they cannot even deactivate them, but hey, you jumped past that point too) you activate those that you can while the Hag picks up a survivor.

I do not understand how or why you are trying to justify that play. Allow me to ask a question for a change: How is the Nea running after the Hag while the Hag is chasing Meg, and as such occupied, of any help of the team at all? Is it not obvious that you are not doing anything? What is that performance accomplishing? Nothing.

You never once said that to me. And you should not need another person to justify my claims, I justified them myself. Many. Times. Over.

When arguing with a person you discuss with them directly, not with someone who is not even involved in the conversation, and if there was someone else I gather that if they agreed with me you would ignore their points as you did mine, and if they agreed with you then you would just claim that I do not know anything as you did before without actually providing an argument.

Your refusal to provide an argument only shows that you do not have one.

I am done here. This is like talking to a wall and expecting it to move.

Okay, let's look at the first game then. The Hag hooked someone in the basement and they literally got one-hooked because the obnoxious Meg that wasn't doing anything productive saw where the Hag placed her trap yet didn't think to crouch by it. If this game took place before you could crouch around Hag traps (unlikely but possible) then the downed survivor seriously screwed over their team by getting downed near the basement. That is 100% their fault and a horrible, HORRIBLE play. Later, we can see from the Hag's perspective that there was a lit up hex totem right next to the gen that the survivors were working on. How does that even happen??? Are the survivors just blind or deaf or both, the hex was literally creating light that was visible from the other side of the wall and none of them thought to cleanse it. The Meg ran away from several amazing pallets and loops that would have either forced the Hag to break the pallet or forced her to place a trap, which gave the Hag free hits. Those are just a handful of very simple yet horrible mistakes that were made, and that's WITH all the crazy stuff that survivors had at the time. And that's only in the first game. Yikes. If the devs looked at games like these for balance, killers would get nerfed to oblivion.

I'm not saying the game should be balanced around the best of the best swf groups, I'm saying it should be balanced around survivors that know how to stay on gens and aren't absolutely terrible at looping. If you're at red ranks and fail at one of these then you shouldn't be at red ranks, much less playing in a tournament.

Yes, I do sit on gens and do nothing to disarm her traps. The map is enormous and if she can't teleport to you, she's a basic m1 killer with 110% movement speed. There is no reason why 3 gens shouldn't pop by the time the Hag can even walk to the gens after hooking someone. Additionally, if everyone is on a different gen then that's AT LEAST 3 tiles that everyone knows for sure haven't been trapped, they're on Coldwind so that should be about 5 or more tiles without traps that everyone knows about because they're on comms. Later in the match, if there's a tile that I'm unsure about then I can run through it real quick to see if it's been trapped while the Hag is carrying someone or busy across the map. All of this is very doable when playing solo and incredibly easy when playing on comms yet this team still failed at it, lol.

I could go out of my way to pick at huge mistakes in every one of the games you shared, but it's a waste of time. If a team is losing against a slow killer on enormous maps with all of the advantages survivors had at the time then that should speak bounds about the quality of the tournament games you're sharing.

I don't care how many games you claim to have lost this year, it means nothing to me. I'm not saying this to be mean. Either you don't play this game often or you're literally a god at this game or you're lying, it doesn't matter because it isn't a valid argument. It's curious though, if you're the amazing red rank killer that you imply you are then how are you unable to recognize how bad those tournament games are?

I'll pick apart this video. At 2:30 the Nea is still able to see the Hag when she stopped to place traps. At 3:15 the Nea activates one of the traps despite knowing that the Hag slowed down to place traps earlier. At 3:50 the Nea ran away from several amazing pallet loops. The Hag didn't break any of those pallets and didn't place a single trap at any of those loops yet the Nea still ran away from them and scored the Hag a free hit. Notice while this chase is happening that the teammate has already hit second stage and no one is going to save her. Also notice that despite over 3 minutes having passed, only 2 gens are done. The Hag has only chased 2 survivors so far, so what are the other 2 survivors doing? Either they can't hit Ruin skillchecks or someone is running around looking for Ruin. This definitely doesn't suggest high level play either way. At 4:18 you can see a lit up totem next to a generator that is being worked on. Yikes. At 4:38 the hooked survivor died and was thus one-hooked despite the killer not camping them. I have never even seen this happen in solo queue, it should never be happening in a tournament game. At 5:06 Nea attempts to bodyblock for Feng and then just randomly stops, letting the Feng go down and get hooked. The Nea could have been working on a gen but decided to mess around instead. At 5:45 Claudette sprint bursted yet still managed to be in range of the Hag. This was just horrible movement, she did not have to get hit there at all. At 6:16 Hag finds Nea. Nea could have unhooked her teammate with all the time the Hag spent with the Claudette and placing traps and breaking the gen but nope, she was just chilling out the whole time that was happening I guess. At 7:30 Feng ran to a tile where the pallet was broken, this is just incredibly poor communication on her teams part. The Nea failed to bodyblock properly earlier while the Feng was two-hooked and either didn't have DS or she missed the skillcheck and she dies on hook. We find out later that the Hag was using PWYF! Do you know why this is significant? The Nea was feeding her stacks of PWYF the entire game. Every time the Nea showed up in front of the Hag to either get her attention or fail a bodyblock, she gave her a stack. Despite how poorly these survivors played, they still managed to finish all the gens with Ruin up and 2 people escaped! Imagine how poorly this would have turned out for the Hag if the survivors actually played well.

The next match is just embarrassing. The Hag hardly got anything done at all and it looked like an easy win for the survivors up until the point where there was only 1 gen left to do and... the survivors somehow managed to 3 gen themselves on Coldwind. Against Hag. The first survivor gets one-hooked (again), the second survivor gets two-hooked and tunneled out of the game after getting unhooked (again), and the Hag just wins from there because of the 3 gen. Oddly enough, the survivors could have gotten themselves out of that 3 gen pretty easily by crouching up the stairs to the gen upstairs or when the Hag left the 3 gen after slugging the third guy. In fact, the last 3 survivors could have just ditched the gens entirely and looked for a key to escape via hatch if they wanted to. However, the easiest solution is to simply not let Hag get the 3 gen. It didn't look like she was trying especially hard to secure that endgame 3 gen, it could have very easily been avoided and it definitely SHOULD have been avoided considering that they're on comms.

And that is my long observation of the video. The survivors didn't play well, but the killer didn't do all too well either. Granted, I think Hag did okay considering the map she was playing on but the survivors played very, very poorly. I definitely don't think this is at all representative of even red rank play and this definitely isn't gameplay I would look at when balancing the game.

Please don't misunderstand my intentions with this, I didn't make this comment to undermine or berate anyone. This simply isn't representative of high level play, that's all. Marth's depip squad is a lot more in line with what I expect from a good swf group. Even if you want to argue that survivors playing in solo queue is fine, the game is definitely not balanced with swf in mind because 4 survivors playing optimally is crazy to go against and pops up more frequently than you imply.

The Nea actually did have time to crouch and get the save, if you actually looked at the video or even my timestamps you can literally count how much time she had. Even in the worst case scenario, they could have simply traded and that would have given the team plenty of time to finish gens. Alternatively, if the Nea was so confident in looping that she would follow the killer around the map then why didn't a teammate go for the save while Nea had her distracted? Even if the team would lose some momentum with only one person working on a gen, as long as they got away from the basement they would have been fine. Letting a teammate get one-hooked is definitely not the play.

They didn't record the rounds they got dominated? Yikes, did you even watch any of the games they played because it sounds like you're just making stuff up now. They played on stream, they literally didn't have the option of not recording games even if they wanted to.

Again, tournaments don't mean much. They make their own custom rules; that alone makes tournament games mostly irrelevant when looking at balance in this game. That aside, just because matches have the word "tournament" on them doesn't mean they're high quality games, and I think I more than proved that point in my earlier comment.

Marth knows his experiment holds no weight anymore. Look how many times he did Killer Hardcore challenges but he hasn't attempted a single survivor hardcore challenge. Says alot....

Oh that experiment which proved that 4 high ranked DBD players with +4.000 hours who sweat a lot during their matches against random killers could win most of their games? And not a lot of killers did it, but they still managed to win against them so it wasn't impossible to face this team at the end of the day, extremely hard and stressful yes, but not impossible. I think a Billy or Nurse with a good build and who sweat a lot could win against them if they wanted to.

Marth also went from rank 20 to rank 1 as perkless Wraith, and it was back when this game still had pallet vacuum, old exhaustion, old DS, A LOT of pallets, old Self Care, old BNPs, old InstaHeals, Old quick vault feature, (i'm not gonna mention every change survivors had since then but you got it). Funny how 2020 Killer mains never mention this.

Old swamp was kind of a bad map for huntress and facecamping when the gates are open is normal, there isn't much what a killer can do, in that situation.

He had three of them down at some point, I think he just played safe to get the pip (patrolling Marth, camping in the end etc.). And like I said, it wasn't a good map for him.

In general I think the experiment is interesting but not helpful: Everybody knows, survivors are stronger than killers, especially SWF, so the question is, how much are they stronger and what to do about that. As far as I know all of the depip squad are very good players with a lot of hours so of course you expect them to win most of the games, Scott is also a good player, so he could somewhat keep up with them (yes the match would have looked different if they had perks, but than again it would have also looked different in a better map so in the end it's only speculation.) So I feel like the experiment proved one point: Good players playing the stronger side will win most of the time. But the majority of players is far from Marth's skill level, so you can't balance around the best players, especially not with the current bad matchmaking. Marth has a relativly recent video of 60 4k with the clown, a killer that is generally considered to be weak, so you shouldn't expect him to win many games in a row. What does that prove? That Clown is too strong? I think it just proves, that a good player can win a lot of games even in the weeker side, because the majority of players is just mediocre.

Dbd has a lot of balance problems that they need to be fixed, but looking on streaks on very good players, that don't represent the majority of the playerbase, is not the way to go in my opinion.