Weekly Reminder #1: Pills are not proper hitboxes.
Thanks for stopping by. Here's a low effort meme.
Comments
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"The hatchet shockwave hits the air around you" 😂🤣 facts.
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This game has so many "close enough" shortcuts that it makes my head spin.
Director: We need hitboxes, does blueprints have anything we can paste on our character models?
Programmer: Uhh.. nope. There's nothing here for that.
Director: Alright, just make some from scratch.
Programmer: *Makes a giant pill that's massively oversized for the models they belong to.* Yeah. This is good.
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Isn't Huntress' hatchets more of a hitscan rather than an actual hitbox?
A hitbox would be something like Deathslilnger's projectile. it needs to connect with the Survivor to land a hit. But Huntress' hitscan is much larger than the model. It's the same reason why people think Freddy has a longer lunge than he actually has.
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Hitscan for bullets (deathslinger)
Hit box for projectile (huntress)
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Well, no, that's not what hitscan means. Hitscan refers to an interaction that's instantaneous upon pulling the "trigger", without regard to distance, travel time, or anything else. (Think of clicking a button on a webpage with your mouse.)
The axe is a projectile with a hitbox. Moving objects or objects with geometry more complex than a cube will often have hitboxes that are larger than their model suggests. Because a hitbox that's simply...well, a "box" is simpler for the developers and - more importantly - it's easier for the system to manage hit detection.
So that survivor with their character hugging a corner will likely get hit by a passing projectile, simply because their hitbox is one - or a handful of - cuboids surrounding their visual model, and is likely sticking out from around that corner.
People often clamor for "accurate hitboxes" but you'd be hard-pressed to find a game that's played in a 3-dimensional (Or even 2-dimensional, honestly) environment that actually has pixel-accurate hit detection. It's simply too expensive.
Edit: I guess DbD uses pills and not actual cuboids, but all the other details are largely the same.
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It bears repeating on a daily basis, but what you're referring to is not a problem with the hitbox, it's an issue with latency and hit authority. Contrary to popular belief, the hitboxes are not flailing around uncontrollably. The issue arises because what you see and what the killer sees are two different things. You might see yourself around the corner, but since that information takes time to get from your system to theirs, they see where you were a fraction of a second before, when you were still in the open.
They are both projectiles. Hitscan would mean you hit where you're pointing instantly, projectiles are an actual object with travel time (i.e. you have to lead your shots). The Deathslinger's spear is much faster and flies straighter than a hatchet, but they are both projectiles.
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Actually they can both move at the same speed a max speed hatchet and the spear both move at 40m/s I was just making a closer comparison for what they react to for hitboxes in comparison to other games. Comparing deathslingers projectile to hitscan because it only affects the relative physical hitbox where the character actually is and the secondary pill hitbox for huntress because her projectiles affect the general area around the survivor as well.
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But that's not what hitscan means. It's still a projectile, it has a speed, traverses a distance and has an applicable (albeit very short) travel time.
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Well, the hitboxes -are- an issue, and the fact that you think they're not is baffling. In no way are those pills accurate to the actual shape of your characters. You even have videos showing the massive disparity between the size of the hitbox and the character. You have huge portions of the box hanging so far to the sides of each character that it makes impossible occurrences even more likely to take place (on top of subpar servers). They should be form-fittingly accurate based on each character's unique proportions, like most every other game.
Also, if the servers are the main problem.. well, what does it take to get -better- servers? Surely there's no shortage of income at the rate cosmetics come out. Maybe more of the cash flow could be redirected to better servers and the overall health of the game? Y'know, long term. These kinds of issues wouldn't be left as long in most other games with any sort of playerbase to speak of. People have limits, and this will eventually reach boiling point and cost DBD numbers.
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Alright more details it is
In comparison a game like tf2 has 2 hitboxes the hitscan hitbox which only covers the model itself and the splash damage and melee hitbox which covers far outside the model as a single hitbox so it doesn't hit multiple times and doesn't feel to clunky.
The Deathslingers Spear affects the hitboxes as if it were a hitscan weapon only landing hits if it directly intersects with the model with a slight bit of give to the surrounding space.
The huntresses hatchets function as if it were splash damage affecting the bigger pill shaped melee hitboxes of survivors so it feels a lot more lenient and at times unfair to the survivors for how forgiving it can be.
They are both projectiles I was just making a comparison to the hitboxes they affect.
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The hitboxes are actually pretty average compared to other games, honestly. Especially for a game where extreme precision isn't really a factor most of the time and there are no head/leg/etc shots.
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Oh god, imagine Huntress being hitscan.
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This doesn't change the fact hitboxes are still an issue in general. Pill shaped hitboxes on survivors with hatchets that are literally circles leads too the hitbox issue. Latency doesn't change the fact that when I throw a hatchet and it hits literally nothing and it still does damage, that's not latency, that's a hitbox issue.
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Why would you make me picture something so horrible.
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But none of this has anything to with what hitscan means. You're really just describing a pinpoint projectile.
"Hitscan" precisely means that something is NOT a projectile in any way. It does not have a speed, does not travel in the adjoining space, and does not collide with other objects. It is literally placing your mouse over a target and it is "hit" the instant you press the button.
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Again, no, it's not the hitbox. We have a great visual example in the stream we did about this: https://youtu.be/A8SwqJJKlaY?t=1135
You can see how it looks wildly different from the killer and survivor's perspective. For the killer, the survivor is in the window and it's totally a fair hit. For the survivor, they appear to be through the window and safe. This is not because the hitbox is massive (the hitbox used to detect hits is actually smaller than the survivor if anything: https://youtu.be/A8SwqJJKlaY?t=454), and again, it's not because the hitbox is flailing around uncontrollably like a deflating balloon. This is because of latency.
Latency is also not necessarily a server issue. Latency is an issue with the internet in general. Because you're not physically sitting in the same room as someone, it takes time for you to send information to each other. Data isn't magic, it's can't instantly teleport from your system to someone else's. It needs to physically move through cables of varying speeds and zigzag across the country (or even continent, where applicable) to get to them. This means that no matter what, there's going to be delay.
A server will add a tiny bit of delay to take in, handle, and send back out information (a few milliseconds), but the vast majority of it is due to distance. You can have a magical perfect server that instantly receives and immediately sends back out information and you would still have latency.
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heres an example that will be the last chance I give you before I stop trying to make you understand
Hitscan and projectiles can share the same hitbox (shocker) a good example of how deathslingers weapon functions is a projectile that affects the smaller hitbox, not the splash hitbox (bigger hitbox) that huntress effects. Just because I used the phrase hitscan hitbox doesnt mean I think that the PROJECTILE THAT I LITERALLY STATED ABOVE MOVES AT 40m/s is a hitscan it just uses the same sized hitbox as if it was. Also not every word is wishy washy because that means it was exactly as I said because in the exact post you are showing it says AFFECTS THE HITBOXES AS IF IT WERE A HITSCAN as in its not a hitscan but affects the hitboxes as if it were a hitscan (double shocker)
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None of what you're saying needs the term "hitscan" involved at all. There is absolutely no element of hitscan or anything like it in play here.
Deathslinger projectile is a projectile. It moves and interacts with a hitbox upon collision. That's it.
There is no "affects it like a hitscan" because that's just not a thing. You can just leave that word out entirely.
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I understand that latency is a thing and can affect hits. But that's not the main argument I'm making. What I'm saying is, if I throw a hatchet-sized object, whether or not it connects should make sense to both parties. Even if you discount the unpredictability of internet performance, the hitboxes are still poorly done.
- You're throwing a hatchet at a survivor. The survivor (and the killer) have mentally established the area this object is capable of affecting based on its size/spin during a throw.
- What's happening right now, minus lag, is you're throwing hatchets with circles attached that are (most of the time) hitting other circles around the model, not the model itself. That is the issue.
You're sending conflicting messages to both players and training bad habits in the killer, which could only ever truly come to light with proper hitboxes. Survivors are seeing a "hit" when the hatchet did, in fact, completely miss - your inaccurate hitbox is at fault here, not the survivor. The huntress player, as an example, is therefore trained to hit "an area", not a survivor. That is the most effective way to play the killer. All of those trick shots become far less impressive when you realize most of them don't even make contact with a survivors model, but instead an invisible body barrier surrounding them.
- TLDR: Hatchets should only hit when making contact with the character model, not their poorly drawn hitboxes. Hitting the air around a survivor to score a hit shouldn't be a thing, especially not in 2020. And no, "it's just the internet" doesn't count for why most hits appear as complete horse crap 50% of the time. There is indeed a hitbox issue at play here that none of the developers seem to want to acknowledge. Can bad hits happen due to latency? Yes. Is this the only cause of non-nonsensical hits? No. Far from it.
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I will now put this in simple words to make my point once more
Hatchet big and hit big red hitbox
Spear tiny and hit little hitboxes on body
Post edited by Mandy on3 -
You forgot the part when survivors don't have one
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I'd like to see what your alternative solution is to pill hitboxes.
And I can assure you that any solution you provide will have some jank to it as well. Truth is there is no perfect solution to hitboxes, there is only the one with the least amount of jank (which would be pill hitboxes).
Also as @Peanits said, most of the issues people have with "hitboxes" is actually latency.
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The hitboxes on that TF2 character are exactly what the game should have. The giant red box/blue box is a perfect example of what -not- to do in games like this. Look how much space that blue box has to work with, most of which doesn't even touch the actual model. Ridiculous.
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Hitscan weapons don't fire actual projectiles. When you shoot an AK47 in COD, for example, there are no real bullets in flight. The game does a raycast from the origin of the shot (in this case your camera) and draws a literal line from that point forward. If it intersects with an object, it stop there and hits that object. If that object is another player, it registers as a hit and damages them. This is done instantaneously. In real life, a target about 300m away would get hit by the bullet about a half second after you fired it. In a video game, it hits the next frame after you pull the trigger (1/60th of a second), and the distance is irrelevant. It could be 1m it could be 1000m, it still hits at the same time.
Only a few games don't use hitscan and use actual projectiles for every weapon. Battlefield and Halo 3 come to mind. You fire a sniper shot in BF there is travel time and gravity, so you have to account for that. In Halo 3, bullets were actual objects in the game and thus not hitscan/raycasts. They do this for realism and to have more control over the weapon's functionality, but it is also more resource intensive since the system has to render the bullets instead of just drawing a line. AFAIK Halo 3 was the only game in the Halo series to have done this, and if you play Halo 3 at all you would know the BR was a bit janky at range purely because it fired actual projectiles.
That all said, a weapon cannot be both hitscan/raycast AND projectile at the same time. They have conflicting properties. If a hatchet were hitscan it would just fly across the map instantly and register as a hit. If you add in a projectile to "confirm" the hit all that does is make the hitscan portion pointless, because the hitscan and projectile will strike an object at 2 different times. If the survivor is standing still this isn't a problem, but survivors move. So hitscan would say "hit" and then the survivor moves, 2 seconds later the projectile says "miss" now which would be correct? It makes more sense for it to be a projectile since it's meant to have a travel time. Deathslinger's spear too, even though it moves faster and straighter than a hatchet, it still has a noticeable travel time.
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Then you just give small characters an advantage over large ones. Anyone that plays Bill will be at a massive disadvantage compared to anyone that plays Feng.
And no there is no way to make those two hitboxes the same. Hence why the devs go with pill hitboxes, because it's universal and independent of the size of the character.
There is also the issue of animations affecting hitboxes. If the hitboxes were as you suggest, then you could miss because the survivor was doing a specific animation. That's a problem if survivors can change directions faster than killers and cancel certain animations instantly. Imagine throwing a hatchet at someone, they do the pointing animation, and it misses, they cancel it and keep going. That's basically what could happen.
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I like how you keep trying to act smug about this and insult me, when the only fact here is that you were using the word "hitscan" when it doesn't apply to ANY part of the mechanics in play.
That's it. That's the only fact here. Just stop using the word, there's no place for it.
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Finally someone gets it
Yes for the love of god I was comparing the hatchet to the big hitbox and the harpoon to the small one because that is effectively equal to what they hit in game
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I'd be all for them making small changes to the hatchets hitbox as long as the huntress gets changes to make her throws more responsive and less sluggish overall.
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Right, which is why I said he was describing a pinpoint projectile, not anything having to do with "hitscan". For some reason he just kept on with the term for several posts for some reason. There's really nothing to compare between a projectile and a hitscan interaction, no matter how small the projectile is. It's just not applicable in any way.
(He also used the word "splash" with regards to Huntress axes which, again...not sure where they're getting these terms. Just stick to what they are.)
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Yes, and I already addressed that. It was your constant use of "hitscan" and "affects it like hitscan" and such that I was pointing out was simply not useful or correct at all.
It's a small projectile. That's it. You don't need to compare it to "hitscan" because it's just nonsensical to do so. Size of a projectile has nothing to do with "hitscan" or not.
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I think you took him a little too literally and it frustrated him :/
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Not really, the term just had no place in the discussion.
It's not "like a hitscan" or "affecting it like a hitscan" or anything remotely relating to or similar to hitscan in any way. They're just mixing up terms for no reason.
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I think they were meaning to use the term purely as comparative hyperbole
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They showed the hitbox for it in one of the streams around the time she came out.
Basically she shoots tiny balls a bit like a machine gun that are connected to each other by a visual effect to make it look like one continuous stream of pukey.
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This is the ideal HITBOX survivors imagine.
https://clips.twitch.tv/AggressiveMuddyVelociraptorCoolStoryBro
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I dunno. Feels more like they steadily walked it back after the initial claim instead of owning it. Considering that their first post was literally just:
"Hitscan for bullets (deathslinger)
Hit box for projectile (huntress)"
I'm understandably suspicious. 😁
Does it matter now? Nah, not so much, it has been hashed out and I don't think anyone misunderstands now.
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Yes it is ideal that survivors can crouch to avoid hatchets.
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It's not just plague, there are multiple instances of huntress' hatchets passing right through the survivor. Survivors hitbox disappearing while they are unhooking. Then there is Billy's false saw, Oni's demon strike going right through the survivor if they are at the pallet.
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The killer also has an advantage on hits being favored by the server. Why is this when survivors are the reactive role?
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Deathslinger is not hitscan
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Because otherwise it would look terrible on the killer end and make it near impossible to know when the survivor is in range of your attacks. And yes I know that currently some hits look stupid on the survivor side. If you realize you have a bad latency with the killer, don't be greedy and drop thoses pallets early.
Also hit detection is the only interaction where the killer as priority. It does not appear to work for things like grabs wih make laggy survivor pretty much immune to them.
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Here’s a food for thought:
what if the type of hits that always happen on this happened in Siege or CS?
people would be furious too
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Both are projectiles. Ones just faster
A hit scan is instant, a projectile has travel time
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ermmm no, because I know im going to get hits around corners because of the beachball hatchet hitbox.
If a survivor goes around the corner and I cant see them anymore, all I have to do is throw my hatchet right passed that corner to hit them, I do this all the time, you cant blame that on latency because even on my end it was a miss.
I just know that the hatchets have bs hitboxes:
instead of:
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That second model is actually so good why isn't it in the game lmfao
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Here from sep '19, by Peanits, with drawing.
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Regarding hatchet hitboxes: They were changed to not be spherical a while back, but the change needed to be reverted (as others have mentioned in the thread). I'll have to bust out my amazing drawing skills. This is what the hitboxes look like:
The survivor has a "capsule" shaped box around them. This determines where they can run and whether or not the killer can hit them. This hitbox does not change, the only exception is that it's a little shorter when you crouch. If it did change, it would cause all sorts of issues in a chase. You would be bumping into stuff constantly.
The hatchets, on the right, have a spherical hitbox.
Why?
When a survivor is injured, they're slouched over as they run. In the example above, you can see what that's important. The hitbox of the hatchet overlaps with the hitbox of the survivor, so the hatchet hits.
Now if you were to make it more closely match the size of the hatchet, you'd end up with this:
In spite of the hatchet going right through the survivor (visually), it does not touch the survivor's hitbox, and so the hatchet would miss. We have tried this change and the past, but it was reverted because it caused a lot of issues like this.
To go back to the first hit, this is the scenario that played out:
This is what the killer sees. It looks a little weird because of the survivor's animation, but the hitboxes overlapped. But then you need to factor in latency:
This is what the survivor sees (with what the killer sees faded out). Latency sucks, you can't really get rid of it. It's a fact of life with online games. There's always going to be a slight discrepancy in online games. Since the hit is currently handled on the killer's end, even 100 ping can make a difference. (Survivor running at 4m/s x 0.1 = 40cm difference between what the killer sees and what the survivor sees.)
The ultra short version: Hatchet hitboxes can't change unless the survivor hitboxes are completely reworked, but latency is also in play
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Me again: Accurate hitboxes make it hatd to aim with projectile weapons. Theres a reason Hanzo in overeatch is firing "logs" instead of arrows.
Sidenote: Accurate hitboxes for melee would require another bullload of reworks for every killer. Imagine trying to hit an injured, slumped over from behind, while needing to hit their backside which is leaning away from you.
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I think the main problem in this case is not the "pill" but the hatchet hitbox, which is a sphere in contrast with the very narrow shape of the hatchet itself. You think you're being hit by a hatchet, while in reality you're hit by a cannon ball.
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Repeat thet part where you said latency after this:
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So theoretically speaking, it should improve gameplay just by reducing update time discrepancy.
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