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Can we talk seriously about effective real anti-facecamping mechanisms?
Comments
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Non of these are a good idea for a multitude of reasons..camping sucks but thanks to the games design there are situations where the killer has to do it to get any results
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Otznoed expirement showed camping was strong against overly altruistic survivors. Why would someone try to unhook a face camping bubba with his chain saw revving?
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You know, camping really isnt the problem people think it is, its more the feeling that unsafe hooks shouldnt exist. I think certain people just want to be able to walk up to the hook with no opposition and save their friend. Its almost like survivors want bots rather than an actual human player to play against.
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Sometimes face camping is necessary. Played a game last night. Rotten fields, deathslinger. Gens were done at 4:20 and there wasn't a toolbox or prove thyself in sight. Took me 50 seconds to find a survivor. Got two kills thanks to camping, 7k points everyone depips.
Getting camped sucks, but getting gen rushed sucks too. Can't fix one without fixing both.
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How about we implement a system where hook progress speeds up if both like and survivor are running around the hook?
Survivors do realize the entity wants them to suffer and for right? Went would the entity make it easier for you too survive?
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I proposed a similar idea, but without the desperation buff. Instead, i proposed that the debuff for a hooked survivor isnt the same, but that the first debuff is bigger than the second, so it encorages going after a new survivor instead of tunneling. If all debuffs are the same, tunneling the injured survivor might be the better idea, if the first debuff is stronger, it might be worth going after an uninjured survivor.
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Not a bad modification. So like the first hook gives them a -10% debuff and the second hook gives them a -5% for a cumulative -15%? Or something like that? (numbers are spitballed obviously). Though that's part of why the Desperation buff is in there too. Its there to make ejecting a survivor from the match asap much less appealing.
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yes, thats what i thought. i even like it in addition to the desperatioin buff. So spreading the hooks leads to a big slowdown, but killing players reverse the effect (at least in parts). Tunneling one out of the game outright might even lead to a buff with genspeed, because no hook debuffs have happend at that point.
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What is the difference between keeping the game hostage (bannable) and Facecamping with Bubba breathing to your face charging at 1st hook until die?
Post edited by 5thPerkSlot on0 -
Normally I would disregard a post like this is utter nonsense but let's poke each of your mechanics and see how they work.
1) This in fact on a level could work however it will promote hook swarming. This is when one or more survivors run up to the hook to try to cheese the same as quickly as possible.
If you've ever played killer you know those times where you could barely turn your back and walk two steps before the person who was hooked has been saved yeah that's because of hook swarming.
This also surprisingly enough leads to tunneling
2 and 3) I'm lumping them together because these are just as bad as each hook swarming you shouldn't be rewarded for rushing the hook.
Your idea would invite a bunch of people to be able to freely and without a risk and unhook someone with no danger in fact.
In fact there is such little thought to your actual idea that a survivor can genuinely just chill in the hook zone and not be touched by the killer because the killer can't go too close. Like literally just wait until their other survivor on the hook is about to hit a stage and then go for the save.
4 and 5) if these punishment can be lumped on the killer like this what's to stop survivors from just looping around the hook.
If you want me to be frank these have to be the worst suggestions I have ever heard for an anti camping mechanism and easily the most highly abusable mechanisms I've heard honestly I question if you have even played the game if you are suggesting these.
Now let's talk about endgame camping.
Unless you are playing a one shot killer or unless you have that dreaded perk no one escapes death that everyone seems to love getting their panties in a twist about.
Once the last gen has been completed if there is more than just one survivor as you are currently in a chase or or looking for a survivor by the time you've found and then down to one of the survivors exits are usually at 99%.
You are now left with two options
Option 1. Abandoned the hook for the sake of being fair and go look at an exit gate only for whatever survivor is there to open the gate then butt dance you before leaving or people just go save the person on hook heal them up and then open the exit and proceed to butt dance you.
Option 2. You accept that it's a lost game and at least try to secure one extra kill now with your little mechanics this becomes practically impossible.
How is this fair for the killer on any level now I guess you could also argue that the killer lost the game so they should just accept the loss and not camp if the survivors leave they shouldn't complain.
Then if you're ever going to use that logic please tell me how many times after the killer has wiped out your team and left you as the only survivor and closed the hatch have you alerted the killer to your presence then pointed at hook because you know accept your the defeat move on and you shouldn't complain.
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The problem with all these suggestions are that they are easily exploitable by survivors. Take your barrier idea for example say you hook someone then when you're leaving hook you spot someone and start chase, you get a hit they damage sprint away and into this barrier and start self caring in your face and theres nothing you can do about it. All of these suggestions will incentivize players to loop close to hook which in a sense defeats the point of them which is to move the killer away from the hook but by making it so survs will try to use these gimmicks to their advantage and thus make it more beneficial to loop close to hook you make it so the killer will be more likely to be closer to the hook even with the restrictions. Or you make it so difficult to chase around hooks that you essentially make a complete safe zone for survs which would just be insanely op.
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Complaints about game mechanics or swf groups having perks for free isnt the same as complaints about a strategy
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Why not? They all fall under the same heading as being a legitimate and acceptable part of the game.
Being a perk or a strategy doesn't matter. They are all still condoned by Bhvr. If they wanted to they could make camping punishable like they do to other strategies like holding the game hostage.
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Heres one you should be great at since you have 1k hours.
GO DO THE GENS. DONT FEED THE CAMPING.
Easy.
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It's also for when the situation calls for it, or if stupid...I mean over altruistic survivors throw themselves at the hooked.
If its EGC and you have one on struggle hook with two doors open, why the ######### would you leave?
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devs said camping is valid so what? they gave up this issue? are they the ultimate unquestionable demigods? I wont buy this valid method of game hostage
and no, there is no difference if you got sacrified hold in a corner hostage due to end game mechanism VS in the hook with bubba breathing to your face
imma do a test right now facecamping til die on 1st hook a surv and ask in the end chat if that was keeping hostage or not
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Yes, the developers who created the game and decide on its rules are the ultimate unquestionable demigods. Do you actually believe your opinion on what the rules should be outranks the opinions of those who literally make the rules?
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There you go buddy, the opinions of the gamers (the customers) is what worth, over the demigod devs that did not manage this top 1 issue
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Summarizing, any terrible gaming experience as facecamping is, should be addressed by the devs, to keep the customers happy, call it with mechanisms or banable, I hope everyone agrees with that
Failing at addressing a terrible game experience practice as facecamping is means unhappy customers and a reduced value of a bad product
Sorry for using biz quotes
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Killer Mains: Devs say face camping is a legit strategy, so its settled!
Also Killer Mains: Devs are WRONG that gen times are fine! THEY NEED TO BE FIXED
Weird how that works.
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One is their opinion of what is and isn't allowed (i.e.: the rules), the other is their opinion on what is or isn't balanced. Balance is independent of their opinions, the rules are literally predicated upon them.
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Yes, yes, we get it. You're a killer main who wants upvotes for saying "Survivors bad, Killers Good!"
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Survivors have it in their hands to punish facecamping. I know that facecampers make for a boring game, either sitting on gens or on the hook, but it's ultimately boring for the killer too and punished by the ranking system - feed a camper enough boring games where 3 gens get done as they stare at the hooked survivor and then depip they'll either change their act or stop playing. If you want to see it less stop rewarding camping killers with easy wins.
Oh, and run Kindred.
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Game Balance is a lot more complex than what is and isn't allowed. Keep in mind that the Devs have also said that Camping and Tunneling aren't good strategies. They aren't meant to be good strategies, and they're definitely better than they should be. Therefore making it easier to punish camping and tunneling would be completely in line with camping and tunneling still being strategies. They're not meant to be viable. And they're a large part of the reason gen times are what they are. Anyone who understands game balance, would understand that.
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Oh look, you didn't make a sound argument and now try to piggyback off of someone else. What a surprise!
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Oh look, killers can camp for two minutes and get a kill. They don't need faster gen times to give killers another edge just so they can have easier games.
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If your feelings were hurt then I apologize.
Camping is not supposed to be a viable strategy. Largely because it would be unhealthy for the game if it were. Survivors do not enjoy being camped, much like killers do not enjoy being gen rushed. Only in the case of being camped, survivors also can't do anything except mash a button. Killers being gen rushed at least are still free to roam about the map and engage in chases. A survivor being camped can only sit there and watch as his team either gets slaughtered, or manages to finish the gens and get out. And it's not very rewarding, either. Killers still have opportunities for bloodpoints when being gen rushed. I should also add that Gen Rushing and second-chance perks being meta -- things killer mains often complain about -- are largely a result of camping and tunneling. DS is meant to make tunneling less lucrative, and give survivors a chance to get away from the hook. The 1 minute timer could be shortened if survivors were given some other methods of staying alive once they are unhooked. (Especially since they have zero control over when they are unhooked by a fellow survivor. And Game Balance dictates that you can't deny an unhook, because doing so would leave solo players unable to unhook SWF who let their friends unhook them instead)
With the reduction of map sizes and changed tiles in favor of the killer, camping has become more rewarding. Especially against Solo-play, which is the majority of players.
If you think that gen times are bad, but think face camping is fine, then you're biased. The same is true if you think face camping is bad. It's incredibly hypocritical to say "How dare you make the game easier for survivors," when in the past you've made suggestions to make the game easier for killers.
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What does that have to do with what I said? To reiterate, what I said is that game balance doesn't depend on the opinion of the developers, but the rules are literally their opinion on how the game should be played. This was a counter to you trying to draw a parallel between the developers saying that X is/isn't allowed and X is/isn't balanced.
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Making Gens take longer make games easier for killers. I'm not sure why you can't admit that.
Survivors finishing one or two gens before you get your first hook is not imbalance. Just like you getting 3 hooks before anyone completes one generator wouldn't be imbalance. Its survivors playing well, or in the second case the killer playing well. Survivors getting one or two generators done isn't the end of the game. A killers objective is not, and never has been, to prevent any generators from getting done. Why is it that when a killer gets a 4K before any gens are done, it's not considered an 'imbalance' but when survivors complete just TWO generators before someone gets their first hook, it is considered an imbalance? That seems like an odd way to look at things, but then again I don't just play one side and try to see things from both sides, rather than one side.
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If the killer is face camping, all 3 other survivors can gen rush and get out, providing the camped survivor isn't a spoil sport. Survivors make a rod for the own back when it comes to goading a camping killer.
Only suggestion I have would be the entity progress stalls after x amount of time and remains stalled until the killer moves x amount of distance away. Rinse and repeat.
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Something similar was already tried and abused by survivors. Trying to punish camping via a new mechanic will never work because it's rife for abuse. Better tell survivors to get on those gens.
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I'm a rank 1 Solo survivor and let me tell you other survivors can be very dumb. For example if I plan to be altruistic and get unhooks I bring BT. Very nice vs. campers. Will I get downed, hooked and camped myself? Probably but that's what Kindred is for. So the other survivors can see that he is camping and go off to do gens....except they NEVER DO! Every time they all hover around looking for an opening to save and when they do, surprise, they DON'T have BT! Why are you standing around a camping killer to save when you don't have BT?! Go do a gen! Let me die! It's fine! This is a TEAM game and sometimes someone has to die so the team can survive. Does it bother me? Honestly not really. I choose this. I hang on so you can do gens then I move on to the next game. What bothers me are survivors, without BT, who know the killer is camping but try to make saves anyway. You are the problem. Not camping killers. You.
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I also forgot to mention. The idea for the killer is too KILL the survivors HOWEVER they can. There is no obligation for killers to not face camp, as annoying and as frustrating as it is.
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Rank 1 killer and Rank 1 survivor here.
Face Camping is comparable to Pallet Looping. Both are strategies (thought face caping isnt as viable) that can be employed by either side to meet their objective and both strats are hated by the other side. If youre going against a lot of face campers get better at the game, you dont see them much in the Red Ranks.
The devs can put stuff in to try and alleviate the issue (i.e. borrowed time, ds, killer powers) but outside of that any mechanic implemented is going to come with a way to abuse said mechanic. You can already see that today with how borrowed time and ds get abused.
Beating a face camper is pretty simple. Eitger run with a swf group, or if youre solo dont die on hook right away and give your team tine to do gens. Chances are they can do the rest of the gens and leave before you die. The issue isnt the face camping, its that you see the game as a 1v1 instead of a 4v1, if 3 peopke escape, you won. Take the W and smile. Its no different than if a killer chased 1 person for 5 gens and everyone else escaped.
Now what I do think is anyone on a hook for more than 20 secs should be recieving a percentage of everything else thats done, you are a distraction after all.
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Changing a game mechanique is a lot easier than changing a strategy. Plus all the listed fixes for camping i've seen have been exploitable by survivors. As ######### as it might be for the guy on the hook, not much can really be done about camping
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Then you're really bad at reading. Decisive strike isn't a strategy and camping isn't a game mechanic.
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It wasn't a 100% toxic match since let make some gens and didn't facecamp completely... but I bet the survs approved the valid facecamping strategy, not posting the aftermatch comments... way too hard
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sorry for the bump, last post here, since wanted to show you an example of a surv sacrificed a 100% from 1st hook and reactions including a DC
- Russian Twitch streamer got 100% facecamped on 1st hook with SWF from 2:53
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Genrush is not an issue for me anymore since the toolboxes run out quick and are worthless
My only complain is facecamping and not having a 5th perk slot,
so I will play killer facecamping only in order to concern more and more about addressing it
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I know better
- Borroved time that meant for this but used for cocky ass unkooks and annoying body blocking
- Trading hooks
- Gang unhook so the killer gets nothing out of it
- Get forked because it’s a leatherface with a chainsaw and you can’t do nothing.
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- If I do my job seriously, no survivor with BT will be able to save you from Bubba charging and because of next point
- I will equip Agitation + Iron grasp + Mad Grit, most like not a problem
- Same as 2
- Wrong
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What? Those perks doesn’t help you at all for camping Lmao. More like for getting ppl to the basement but if you’re camping it’s the same as any other hook. The only way you can stop trading is STBFL at 8 stacks.
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that perks help me with hooking, once im doing it I am just charging the chainsaw
pretty much no perks needed to facecamp
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I mean I personally don't agree with camping/tunneling but there are already anti-camping/tunneling perks such as borrowed time, DS, for the people, unbreakable. Like I know it sucks to be facecamped but you just have to move onto the next game. And if survivors are just going to camp and farm hooks, there's nothing a killer can do about it, but camp (at least proxy camp if they are always 5 feet away from the hook). I'm saying this as I play both killer and survivor equally but I think this game is also stupid in a sense that being really good at killer punishes you by getting DS (Like efficiently downing survivor one after another without tunneling but imagine getting DS'ed which is possible if you play hillbilly or spirit). I wonder if there can be any perk that punishes survivors from doing their objective too quickly (gen rushing), to match how stupid current DS is now.
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If done properly, borrowed time, DS, for the people, unbreakable, etc are worthless against a charging Bubba. Not even synchronized SWF can save against a serious facecamper unless they do a great job with dbd Styptic Agent and MoM... but most likely they wont be even wounded to use them
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I'm talking about camping/tunneling in general. I mean I've played this game for more than 2k hours but I rarely see facecamping bubba.
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A charging Bubba and a regular facecamper is not the same animal. Noone can unhook if HE’S the one facecamping.
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I'm saying just move onto the next game if getting facecamped by bubba. Don't immediately die and give time for other mates to do gens tho. Like how often do you see a facecamping bubba? I've spent 2k hours on this game, like I rarely see a facecamping bubba especially in red rank.
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I have discovered that most of facecamped survs get desperated and give up committing suicide fast instead of hanging on letting others do gens, so in the end, this strategy works in order to accelerate the killer's goals and kills
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