You Should Be Able To Heal Survivors In The Dying State While In Madness Tier 3
If you can unhook survivors in tier 3, why can't you heal dying ones?
I've had so many games just abruptly end because my team gets slugged, leaving me to get chased for 3 minutes until bloodlust finally catches up to me. I could easily heal the dying survivor and use my Dead Hard (saying it doesn't ######### up) if I have to. Even if the other survivor gets knocked right back down, the Doc's bloodlust will at least go away.
Many of the survivors I get matched up with don't have Unbreakable either, so it ends up being a done game once I get caught.
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You can't heal yourself in tier 3 either. Why should you be able to help other when you can't help yourself
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The game grants you the ability to unhook survivors while at Madness 3. Healing dying survivors is really no different.
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Why can Survivors in Tier 3 Madness still unhook and open Exit Gates?
Because the Doctor's power would be too strong otherwise; it's too oppressive and restricting.
For this reason, healing dying Survivors should also be on the list of things Surivors should be allowed to do.
Maybe the only reason why it's not currently this way is because the game lets Survivors heal other Survivors from dying to injured to healthy non-stop. The game would have to recognize that a Survivor being healed is no longer dying and interrupt the healing.
OR
They could balance slugging
Post edited by Nos37 on7 -
One thing that shouldn't happen: screaming when in a dying state. That really gets up my nose.
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The good thing about that though is you wont bleed out due to him not being able to find you and knockouts not as good on him
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I used to be okay with this because Doctor was so laughably weak that if you ended up in a last 2 alive with gens up situation it was because your team had failed - really badly.
Now that he's gotten his buff though I don't know how I feel.
I'm no Doctor Main - I'd like to see points for and against a change like this before I commit to nerfing a Killer.
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I feel removing the ability to open exit gates for the ability to heal a dying survivor would be a great decision.
As Nos mentioned, however, the game couldn't tell the difference between dying state and injured state heals; the game sees healing as healing. The broken status effect could work, but it would probably have some insane glitch that applies it no matter what killer it is.
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I support this 1000%.
Also pause Deep Wounds timer if you are in Madness 3.
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If you have been afflicted with deep wound in tier 3, does the game have you mend first, or will you have to "snap out of it"? I don't think there's enough time to mend if you have to snap first.
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No Snap Out happens first.
You have barely enough time to Snap Out before you can mend HOWEVER if Doc has that one add-on that makes Snap Out take longer, or interrupts you, or you fail a skill check you can't Snap Out before the timer goes down.
When you are in Madness 3 you can't do anything anyway, so pausing the timer wouldn't be detrimental to the effect. You still have to do 2 actions that take about 20-25 seconds total. They could change it to have mend take priority, but then you end up with situations where you scream while mending and give away your position. It just makes a lot more sense to pause the DW timer when in Madness 3.
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Screaming shouldn't happen when on a gate, in the dying state, or if mending were different, then mending. It's just inconvenient and feels cheap when you die to something completely out of your control.
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Why? Just why? Just because it's hard to play around? There is no reason for that. Doctor is not OP or anything he is in a good spot. If all your team is slugged then that's on your team.
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Madness tier three recover speed takes too long to recover in matches where all killer does is shock and slug. You spend the whole time on two recovery bars that gift you nothing for replenishing. There should be a way to tier down from two to one. The way it is currently just allows slugging to end the match abruptly and you have little to show for the time you spent queuing into and playing through a match. That is, if holding a button down for X amount of minutes is considered playing.
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Yes. It takes too much work to play around this. All of these “nerf Doctor” threads are coming because he’s now a strong Killer and some Survivors just don’t seem to like any kind of challenge.
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@thesuicidefox @DetailedDetriment
Actually it makes no sense at all to stop Deep Wounds. But it also does not make sense that Deep Wounds stops when you are running. So if they need to make strange changes to fix the game, they probably would do it.
I don't see addons that increase the snap time needed. And I just found one reference to duration from patch 1.5.something that says it was increased to 12 seconds. BT has 10/15/20 seconds of mending time and styptic has 20 seconds. So the average would be that you have plenty of time to snap out of it. Tier 1 is impossible yeah. Tier 2 would require you to hit all skillchecks. If that is a problem... well, the skillchecks are as easy as sealing a Demo portal.
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Just want to add, this only applies to BT 3. Tier 1 has definitely too less time to mend to actually snap out before mending and I think Tier 2 is not enough as well. Only Tier 3 has a long enough Mend Timer to be able to snap out before.
So if someone gets unhooked by a Survivor who only has BT at Tier 1, they will go down before being able to mend.
@Topic:
Agreed. Healing Survivors from Dying to injured should work in Madness 3 as well.
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Okay yea I just checked his add-ons, I swear there was one that made it take longer to Snap Out.
Regardless all that needs to happen is you miss one skill check or get interrupted and now you can't finish the action before you go down. It's just dumb. Give me a reason why it should work that way? Where the survivor basically has no option but to just go down? It's completely unfair. It doesn't hurt Doc at all to have the DW timer pause when you have to Snap Out because you still have to do 20+ seconds of actions before you can really do anything.
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That's just the case for tier 2 BT. With Styptic or tier 3 you would need to fail MULTIPLE skillchecks. And as I said, even with tier 2 I'm not worried because it is an easy skillcheck. If you get interrupted is also not a problem as progress is saved and Mending stops while running.
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Lets see you can rescue others and open gates becuz if you couldnt it would be very OP.Just think about it if you are mad indeed it restrict all actions except moving but doing so could much actions making him "unfair". I think is balanced the way it is.
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It is different.
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You’re definitely correct about that. Not being able to unhook while in tier 3 would lead to Doctor getting much easier kills and he’d have an easier time hard camping the hooked Survivor. You still have to down the other Survivors while slugging. With Snap Out of It progress saving, the Survivor can just keep doing the action, go back to tier 1, and then go for the heal. If you get downed on your way there, then too bad.
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Doc got hit pretty hard with Nurse's calling nerf (he used to be able to see people snapping out) so this has already been dealt with in a way.
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you mend first THEN snap out.
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Nope.You Snap Out first and then mend.
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I honestly think that doctor is fine the way he is.
If your teammates get slugged by a doctor then that's 100% a misplay on their part.Also making it possible to pick up downed survivors in tier 3 madness would probably mean that all the other healing options would be possible too thus making his tier 3 madness really really weak.
The only thing i would change about him is that the random screaming the survivor does at tier 3 madness doesn't cancel actions like vaulting and snapping out should pause the mend timer.
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Sure? I could swear i could mend before snap out.
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Let's face it, the most common source of Deep Wounds is BT. Styptic is a completely separate thing, on top of the fact it's still a free hit and should be changed to something more like Needle anyway. But the only way you can Snap Out before the DW timer expires is if the person has BT3. If they have 1 it's impossible, and if they have 2 it's a very good chance you won't be able to get it. All it takes is one static blast, you scream and stop the Snap Out while your mend timer goes down. You will be losing bits of timer each time that happens or you need to stop because you can't start running instantly. Human reaction time is AT BEST a quarter of a second, meaning that any time you need to stop you are probably going to lose that much time or more on DW.
The whole issue is that you are going down unless you play it perfectly. Again tell me what is the harm in pausing the DW timer until you can Snap Out? You can't do gens or anything, so it's not like you are going to use that 20 seconds to do something else. Doc gets that time, only now you're not totally cucked from a single Static Blast or another survivor that doesn't have BT3.
It hasn't though because the issue isn't about Snap Out or DW individually, it's how they interact together. Coupled with the fact he can much more easily interrupt your progress by using Static Blast, it just makes for a very unfair situation. You can't necessarily CHOOSE to be given BT, of course it's better than being farmed and going down right away, but when you can't avoid eating the DW timer you might as well just go down right away. The end result is basically the same, especially because the killer sees your notification bubble where you go down.
Snap Out takes priority. You have to do that first. And if it was the other way around then you just end up screaming while you mend, which is equally as lame.
The only reasonable solution to this interaction is to just pause DW timer when you are in Madness 3. You still have to do 20 seconds or more of actions to be able to do anything of value again, only now the killer doesn't have a way to subvert the DW timer (which BTW was the major issue with Legion, so why it's okay for Doc to do something similar doesn't make sense).
Fact is Doc doesn't need either of these effects to work the way they do. DW/Snap Out interaction needs to change, and survivors need to be able to heal slugs when in Madness 3. It's just unfair currently, and Doc is PLENTY strong in his current state without either of these. Like really what is the argument to keep them as they are? Doc doesn't need it, and it makes his kit more fair without them. It's just excessively lame to deal with these things as survivor, and gives him a HUGE advantage he can live without.
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I said that already. BT2 gives you 15 seconds, snap out takes 12. You need to fail a skillcheck to not be able to make it in time, unless you waste time for no reason. And skillchecks are easy. It is just BT1 that does not allow you to take care of yourself, then you need to find someone to mend you. And 1) you should maybe get out of TR and not mend/snap near the killer or 2) run 2 circles for the 2.5 seconds you get blocked to stop mending regression. It is really not that hard to play around that to be honest, no need for "perfect play".
Beneath that, madness 3 is in most cases not really a threat. When I play doc, I barely try to get someone to madness 3 depending on the addons I use, because it just allows survivors to get back to tier 1 with literally no effort. Making you lose all the afflictions. So if there is this one situation, where madness 3 puts some threat on the survivors while NOT denying you any chance to play around it (run, save progress, find someone else, I mentioned it twice now) then I would say it is pretty fine.
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They changed BT to apply Deep Wounds specifically so that you can do it without the need of another survivor. We don't need to revert back to that.
Getting out of the TR of Doc is easier said than done. Most Doc's run Distressing, which makes their TR 40m. This besides the fact than unless you have Spine Chill you can't know for sure if you are out of his TR because there are a lot of fake TR effects with Madness. Therefore this is not always a valid option.
Failing 1 skill check reverts progress, so that 12 seconds is now 15. With Doc's skill checks being backwards or not always on the center of the screen it's actually not that hard to miss a skill check, especially if you are unsure if he is even near you.
The threat of Madness 3 is that it blocks specific actions, namely repairing and healing. Healing from injured to healthy makes sense, but blocking someone from being healed from dying does not as it just gives the killer free slugs. The fact you need another survivor to heal you off the ground is the deciding factor here, as you can still run from the killer and avoid death while injured, but in dying you are at the mercy of other survivors being able to help you.
Again tell me why Doc needs either of these things? You haven't done that. You've given me what to do against it, which are not really valid all things considered since several of the potential circumstances lead to you inevitably going down, or being completely unable to get back up. No other killer has the ability to completely block survivors from healing slugs. If they want to do that they need to actively stop you. Doc doesn't, he just needs to use Static Blast and Shock Therapy a few times and now there is no way to recover. It's just a losing situation that he gets for free.
Legion was able to cheese DW timer, but it's somehow okay that Doc can do it now? Sorry no, that shouldn't be a thing no matter what killer it is. There is no harm in pausing the DW timer when in Madness 3, or allowing survivors to heal slugs off the ground.
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How is doctor can cheese it? He has to work for it you don't inflict madness nearly as fast as you used to. And how is healing survivors from downed state is different from healing at all? It is the same action so it makes sense it works this way. Being in DW status and being in madness 3 at the same time is such a rare case that's it's not even worth talking at all. It's not an issue.
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This is not a problem of the perk, I said already that I think it is not a problem, if there is that single situation where Madness 3 has actually a threatening effect. And you are STILL able to play around that easily, except for that BT1 thing, which is still affordable. It is not like you "have no choice but go down".
And as I said, skillchecks are pretty easy. If you think they are that difficult to make it more common to fail these than hitting them, then you have a problem with his complete basekit, regressing all the gens you work on. Then the mending/snapping issue is the minor problem.
Not being able to repair is not a threat. It is not lethal. It is slowdown, nothing else. Same reason why Deep Wounds is not a threat. When have you lately seen someone go down because of mending? The only two things where I see a threat in madness 3 is when I can't make use of a styptic in chase. And it does not give the killer free slugs, because it takes quite some effort to get ALL survivors into madness 3 at which point I would say well played. And STILL it takes 12 seconds to revert that effort. Good luck at keeping all survivors at level 3 while chasing everyone down.
And I have told you. I think madness 3 is not a threat, so I'm fine with that "single rare situation" where madness 3 is strong (strong, not uncounterable). And there IS harm to the doc, exactly the reason why you complain about it.
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And just to mention: I think when multiple people are slugged and the rest on tier 3, it is most likely bad team play. I would guess that is over altruistic behaviour, like crouching around in the doc radius exposing themselves and causing this multiple slug/madness, because "getting this slug up is so GAWDDAMN Important right now!" Multiple slugs is almost always caused by bad survivors, failing flashlight attempts or hiding like derpface in scary movie.
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Just stop nerfing killers for the love of god you look at it from a tight solo prospective such change would make slugging straight up inviable for him, and in the red ranks it really slows down the game and is often a requirement. Not to mention the fact that SWFs will just be a ton easier now.
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"And you are STILL able to play around that easily"
I question whether or not you've actually been in the situation where you have both Madness 3 and Deep Wounds at the same time. Even if it was from BT3 there is still a good chance you will go down if he uses Static Blast to interrupt you.
"And as I said, skillchecks are pretty easy."
Easy but the punishment for a SINGLE error is way too high. Again all that needs to happen is you fail 1 skill check which can happen even for experienced players when there is a lot going on. Unless you mean I should run clear across the map to do this, but we all know that's just impractical and silly. I shouldn't have to do that to ensure I don't get severely punished for a single relatively easy to make mistake.
"Not being able to repair is not a threat. It is not lethal. It is slowdown, nothing else. Same reason why Deep Wounds is not a threat."
They are not meant to be lethal. They are meant to be slow down mechanics.
"And it does not give the killer free slugs, because it takes quite some effort to get ALL survivors into madness 3 at which point I would say well played."
It's not all that hard if you stay near the slugged survivor and Static Blast/Shock any survivors that get close. And when there are 2 survivors left it is very much a free slug. Slug one, put the other in Madness 3, now there is no chance for them to recover from that situation. No other killer can do this. If you want to slug as any other killer there is still a chance the survivor can revive the other one and they reset the situation. Doc gets a free slug in this case and there is nothing you can do about it.
"I think madness 3 is not a threat, so I'm fine with that "single rare situation" where madness 3 is strong"
It's not meant to be a THREAT, and strong is an understatement. It's borderline broken because of the way these effects interact with each other. The devs even said on stream on time around Doc's rework that they will be looking at how Deep Wounds and Madness 3 play out, and make changes if necessary. Well, turns out that change is needed after all.
"And just to mention: I think when multiple people are slugged and the rest on tier 3, it is most likely bad team play. I would guess that is over altruistic behaviour, like crouching around in the doc radius exposing themselves and causing this multiple slug/madness, because "getting this slug up is so GAWDDAMN Important right now!" Multiple slugs is almost always caused by bad survivors, failing flashlight attempts or hiding like derpface in scary movie."
It's not necessarily bad team play as much as it is just Doc getting stuff for free. He can actually slug very effectively. Of course it does rely on altruism, but considering Doc can ALSO be incredibly strong in a 3 gen he can force this altruism in a lot of situations.
Deep Wounds/Madness 3 are not meant to kill you. The killer has to ACTIVELY do something for that to happen. They are time sinks, meant to waste survivor time while the killer does whatever they need to do. But the way these two mechanics interact with each other lead to several rather unfair outcomes that can't be avoided, much like old Legion.
Again what does it hurt Doc to make these 2 changes? He is still a plenty strong killer without them. He has all the tools necessary to control the game and catch survivors. He has tracking, slow down, and anti-chase tools at his disposal, he doesn't need these 2 things. Unless you can justify keeping them then you honestly have no argument. MAYBE old Doc would have needed them (I would still say he didn't) but new Doc definitely does not need them.
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I agree that the interaction between deep wounds and snapping out of it should be looked at.
Also if he's able to bring you up to tier 3 when the other one is slugged then it's pretty much game over anyway and not exclusive to the doctor.Changing his tier 3 only because of that specific situation would be the same like the last survivor being able to attempt to escape on the hook.
Making it possible to pick up downed survivor in tier 3 madness would also enable all the other healing actions thus making tier 3 absolutely worthless in the endgame.Sure he's a decent killer now after the rework but that's why i don't understand why one should nerf one important part of his kit.
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1) I have multiple times and never went down. And I said already that a static blast doesn't down you. The interrupt doesn't give you regression, and you can run for 2 seconds to prevent the mending timer to go down.
2) I would say I roughly fail one madness skillcheck per 3 doctor games. That this one failed skillcheck happens while I'm mending after being unhooked with a BT2 and the killer hit me but didn't tunnel me so I was able to snap and mend, I would say happens at MOST once a month, rounding up. And I blame that case on me, not on the evil madness 3. And I still don't go down in that case, I search for someone to heal me or take the agression to allow others to do gens or prevent someone else to go down with an easier position than me.
3)+5) So why calling madness a threat? That came from you. Beneath that, Deep Wounds is lethal, you go down from that, it is just too easy to counter to actually call it lethal.
4) As I said, if the killer camps a slug and gets rewarded for that -> survivor fail. Just don't do that against a doc without good reason. If 2 survivors left -> yeah, probably easier endgame for doc, but at that point I'd already say well played again.
6) From my point of view I could also ask why survivors need these changes. Because I already repeated that you have plenty possibilities to not go down by that oh so unfair scenario, which takes place maybe once a month. I really think this is not a game breaker at all and that things like that are purely raised by bad survivor play. And therefore I would never vote up to put development time into something that barely touches me
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Obedience was the add on that increase snap out while inflicting exhaustion. They took it out after they switch out exhaustion for counter clockwise skillchecks.
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Entitled survivors wanting to nerf a killer whats new
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"Also if he's able to bring you up to tier 3 when the other one is slugged then it's pretty much game over anyway and not exclusive to the doctor."
It is exclusive to him. Against any other killer you can actually make a play to get the person up off the ground and then reset the situation. Against Doc this is impossible because you can't heal the slug.
"Making it possible to pick up downed survivor in tier 3 madness would also enable all the other healing actions thus making tier 3 absolutely worthless in the endgame."
No it wouldn't. It can be made that you can only heal a dying survivor, I don't see why you think that would somehow be impossible from a programming perspective.
" I have multiple times and never went down. And I said already that a static blast doesn't down you. The interrupt doesn't give you regression, and you can run for 2 seconds to prevent the mending timer to go down."
The interrupt will cause your timer to tick for a moment and unless you react instantly (which is impossible human reaction is a quarter of a second AT BEST) you will lose time.
"I would say I roughly fail one madness skillcheck per 3 doctor games. That this one failed skillcheck happens while I'm mending after being unhooked with a BT2 and the killer hit me but didn't tunnel me so I was able to snap and mend, I would say happens at MOST once a month, rounding up. And I blame that case on me, not on the evil madness 3. And I still don't go down in that case, I search for someone to heal me or take the agression to allow others to do gens or prevent someone else to go down with an easier position than me."
First it sounds like you don't play survivor all that often because Doc is super common at high ranks, at least on Xbox. Second, I doubt that you hit every skill check that consistently. I have 3k hours in this game, mostly as survivor, I can hit great skill checks consistently and even Unnerving Overcharge skill checks but it's still not difficult to fail at least 1 Snap Out skill check per game if the Doc is any good at what he does and pressures you. The only way for you to almost never fail a skill check like that is if you run clear across the map and waste 30 seconds just to get to a super duper safe spot before you do it, which means that you are wasting massive amounts of time or the Doc isn't very good. Third, relying on someone to heal you was the ORIGINAL problem with BT the devs sought to fix. That's why Deep Wounds came about because they wanted to have an action you can do WITHOUT the need for another teammate. It's why they added clocks to Freddy so that you can wake up when you are the last survivor and there's no option to fail a skill check.
"So why calling madness a threat? That came from you. Beneath that, Deep Wounds is lethal, you go down from that, it is just too easy to counter to actually call it lethal."
Threat =/= lethal. Madness 3 forces you to waste time before you can perform actions and reveals you position constantly to the killer. It's part of the reason Doc is probably the strongest killer in a 3 gen because he can outright STOP you from repairing. Other killers have to actively protect the gens but Doc doesn't. Deep Wounds is similar, but instead of just blocking actions it threatens you with going into dying if you don't do something about it. It's not meant to down you unless you just fail to do the action. However not having the option to do the action makes it an unfair threat because now you have no choice but to go down. This was the exact problem with old Legion. You just straight up didn't have the option to avoid eating the DW timer and going down. Doc shouldn't get an exception for basically the same thing.
"As I said, if the killer camps a slug and gets rewarded for that -> survivor fail. Just don't do that against a doc without good reason. If 2 survivors left -> yeah, probably easier endgame for doc, but at that point I'd already say well played again."
My point was mainly regarding the last 2 survivors, but killers can force altruism. If it's a situation of 3 survivors and 2 or more gens then all the Doc needs to do is slug the guy near 2 of the 4 gens and protect them, shocking anyone that comes near and blocking them from healing the slug.
"From my point of view I could also ask why survivors need these changes. Because I already repeated that you have plenty possibilities to not go down by that oh so unfair scenario, which takes place maybe once a month. I really think this is not a game breaker at all and that things like that are purely raised by bad survivor play. And therefore I would never vote up to put development time into something that barely touches me"
I've explained why... because it puts them in unfair unwinnable situations. Against a GOOD Doc, they can make you go down from DW timer by pressuring you and using Static Blast or shocking you. It is very game breaking when it happens, maybe not every Doc game but it happens enough that it's a problem.
Again, WHY DOES THE DOC NEED IT? There are more reasons to change it than there are to keep it. Your argument basically boils down to "well it doesn't happen enough" yea neither does a 3 man escape with a key but you wouldn't sit here and tell me keys are fair I'm sure (and no it's not common either, I see key +3 man escapes as survivor or killer maybe once every 10 games where there is a key, most of the time when someone brings a key they are the only one to escape sometimes also a second). Know what else doesn't happen often is a mori spam, yet that was changed because it was stupid WHEN IT WOULD HAPPEN. Just because something is infrequent doesn't automatically make it fair.
Doc does not need either of these things. PERIOD. He is strong enough that they can be changed and it won't hurt him.
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I Dont want to work as survivor i want nothing be ease games nerf killer
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LOL yes that's exactly it. Has nothing to do with the fact that the situations where either of these events take place are borderline unwinnable for survivors without any requirement of skill or good play from the killer. Nope, not at all.
SMH
Plus it's not like Doc wouldn't be a strong killer if both were changed. Nope, even though people say these situations are rare doing this would completely nerf him into the ground and make him totally unviable.
SMH again
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When Any of your perks require any form of skill come talk to me but until then take that skill bs somewhere else.
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This comment tells me all I need to know about what kind of killer you are.
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A killer that knows how skill survivors are and how you constantly beg for nerfs
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Sure. 👍
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You forgot to quote another person.
Mending + Snapping out of it is definetely not fair like it is now
Well,then should the last survivor be able to attempt to escape?Because he could also make a play and escape with certain perks,items or addons right?
And if the doctor got down to only 2 survivors where one is downed then he clearly did something good,right?
I mean sure,it wouldn't ruin doctor to make survivors in tier 3 madness possible to pick up downed survivors but i don't see it being really necessary to change either.
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When 95% of Docs (even at rank 1) run NOED, there isn't much room to complain about survivor perks not requiring skill. May I also point out that survivors have more garbage perks than killers?
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Tier 1 as you said is not enough.
Tier 2 really isn't either. You have three seconds after snapping out to mend. After you snap out, you have to wait about a second to begin the mend process, meaning an interruption leaves you rushing to find another survivor so they can heal you after you go down.
Tier 3 works though.
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The only difference is how long you have until you die.
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Survivors want all killers to be 110% ms no power killers. When killers have an ability its too op
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