Doctor is absurd (video)

Jasonisanicefella
Jasonisanicefella Member Posts: 377
edited June 2020 in General Discussions

Can we actually spend a moment to fully grasp how toxic and un-counterable is doctor when used correctly and with good addons?

I was under the impression that the rework was made to make doctor less annoying to verse, but the results are the opposite.

Also, before the super pros come in and say "just dodge the shock bro!" please do show me video evidence of you versing a good doctor at red ranks and dodging the shocks while maintaining an optimal path in a loop.

Last time I asked nobody was able to show anything, let's see what you have this time

Comments

  • TheOhioHutcH
    TheOhioHutcH Member Posts: 178

    Yeah this whole video is what show cases why doctor is so great. (Btw big fan of monto)

  • Jasonisanicefella
    Jasonisanicefella Member Posts: 377

    The big problem, like Monto pinpoints, is the lack of counterplay. (I am also a big fan of Monto!)

    If you keep the optimal path in a loop you get shocked and you can't throw the pallet or vault, if you try to dodge you move away from the optimal path and the killer with 115% speed is on you before you can reach the pallet or the window.

    If the doctor is competent this is a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation, not fun.

  • DelsKibara
    DelsKibara Member Posts: 3,127

    If the Doc is competent and they know what to do, then good for them, they deserve that kill. Especially with an optimal build like that.

  • uBoluCha
    uBoluCha Member Posts: 121

    well yeah doc is absurd the only way i can think against him is just do 360 'cause you'll doomed if you try to juke box pallet or T L window

  • Jasonisanicefella
    Jasonisanicefella Member Posts: 377

    So if my skill as a survivor matches the killer's skill, there is still nothing I can do about it because the killer is broken.

    Don't you think that's a bit unfair?

    I agree that eventually the killer needs to win the chase, but like this you are simply powerless.

  • TheOhioHutcH
    TheOhioHutcH Member Posts: 178

    Yeah its not fun play against, but its fun to play as. I like to play doctor when I'm having a bad day or get to many swf groups. A few good doctor games of 4k's when there's nothing they can do about feels good. Then go back to normal killers like before. Maybe its just me

  • Jasonisanicefella
    Jasonisanicefella Member Posts: 377

    I don't think I ever said that I am ok with ANY killer being able to completely remove your defences.

    Deathslinger at least gives you the chance to pre-throw the pallet, huntress I don't know I am bad in versing huntress so I don't really know the ins and outs.

    Toxic is the complete sense of powerlessness that comes from doctor.

    The survivors may have been potatoes, so I am sure you have plenty of video evidence in you being able to verse a competent doctor, please share

  • Jasonisanicefella
    Jasonisanicefella Member Posts: 377

    I agree with that, but you should be able to do SOMETHING rather than being a sitting duck, or a running one.

    I think that the game is in a spot where it needs clarity on where we are going.

    A survivor being able to 1v1 a killer for a long time is absurd, but at the same time a killer that removes all your defences and your possibility of stalling is also absurd.

    As a survivor I need to have some hope that my actions count for something, and a as killer I need the certainty I can end chase quickly BUT without completely annihilating all that a survivor can do.

    Pallet looping for ages is really stupid and needs to go, but survivors need some sort of counterplay to gain time for their team

  • Jasonisanicefella
    Jasonisanicefella Member Posts: 377

    I don't see anything wrong with having good, strong killers in the roster.

    I main legion and billy, and when I am sick of being beaten as legion I use billy to get some groove back.

    The difference is that when doctor is used correctly there is really not much you can do about it, and that really destroys the fun of a match.

  • DelsKibara
    DelsKibara Member Posts: 3,127

    I can agree with that, though, I personally think strong add-ons (not to the extent of Iri Head by the way) should stay. I don't mind seeing this Doc combo being played as a Survivor mainly because I adore matches where the deck is stacked against me and the only way to win is if my team pulls their weight alongside me. Those games are always fun in my eyes.

    If the Killer knows what they are doing, I expect my team to both help me out during the chase and work on their objective at the same time. It can make those seemingly unwinnable games feel like there's more hope at the end of it.

    I'm not on the balance team so my opinion definitely isn't going to hold much sway, but I would be more in favour of Doctor basically slowing down Survivor actions more than just outright stopping them in their tracks. It could still have the Doctor put some hits in, but if the Survivor is fast enough they can barely miss a hit from the Doctor.

    Then again I used to main Doc, so that wouldn't really be much of a problem to me anyways, most people already drop pallets early especially when facing Docs.

  • SnakeSound222
    SnakeSound222 Member Posts: 4,467
    edited June 2020

    This isn't even Lord Herman's full power. The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

    If the player is using an optimal build on a Killer (not just Doctor, ANY Killer) they are good at in a 4v1 game, then they deserve to get the down. Also, using add-ons is toxic now? Ok...

  • Jasonisanicefella
    Jasonisanicefella Member Posts: 377

    I am politely asking you again, provide evidence of a survivor being able to counter a competent doctor in a loop.

    With skills being comparable the doctor can remove your counteplay and that's not ok

  • CashelP14
    CashelP14 Member Posts: 5,564

    Funny enough I faced these add-ons yesterday and the day before. They are extremely strong. I understand what he's trying to say about how broken the add-ons can be.

    Trying to loop was virtually impossible and I'd imagine on maps with shorter tiles it would be pretty dumb. I'm not saying they need to be changed but I find this more annoying to face than instasaw Billy.

  • Jasonisanicefella
    Jasonisanicefella Member Posts: 377

    I agree that the killer needs to win chases, I have never said the opposite.

    My point is really different and it is all based on the fact that I need to be able to do something as a survivor and when a doctor player is good they can really destroy you regardless of your skill level as a survivor.

    That is not ok in my book.

    I think all of these issues stem from the fact that the devs don't have a clear idea of how long a chase should be.

    If the game is balanced for 30 seconds chases, then gen speed need to be addressed as well and other playstyles need to be implemented in the game as well.

    As it stands, pallet looping is being nerfed left and right and that's GOOD! At the same time the survivor gameplay and ways to avoid the killer are not being implemented and that's absurd.

    There needs to be something that a survivor can do or the game is simply boring if you feel powerless.

  • Jasonisanicefella
    Jasonisanicefella Member Posts: 377

    I agree with what you say, I think there should be a conversation regarding how long chases should be and balance adjustments to reach that.

    Once it's clear a chase should last 30/45/60 seconds or whatever then gens and new ways to avoid the killer can be implemented.

  • Jasonisanicefella
    Jasonisanicefella Member Posts: 377

    Please provide evidence of some of your games where you are versing a competent red rank doctor and you are capable of doing so.

    It is like a good doctor doesn't know you can pre-throw the pallet and counter it...

  • Mooshroome64
    Mooshroome64 Member Posts: 105

    Calm Spirit makes this not work so it has counter play and is completely fair and balanced 😛

  • Jasonisanicefella
    Jasonisanicefella Member Posts: 377

    True. Calm spirit is mostly a terrible perk BUT it shouldn't be able to counter a killer power.

    I think calm spirit needs a rework tbh, at the end of the day is a wasted perk slot 90% of the time, a bit of a gamble for 1 killer

  • MrCookie
    MrCookie Member Posts: 121

    Here you go. Played and taken by me today in solo queue all red ranks. https://youtu.be/GLUfieBY6EM

    You can imagine what all meta perks team and SWF can do to him. And don't say "It was a bad killer". Any killer played well will be difficult ot play against, doctor or not.

  • immortalls96
    immortalls96 Member Posts: 4,652

    Lol I cant believe your really using montos vids as a balance point..dude the survivors in his vids have 0 optimal play..anyone who plays killer can attest to that...some of us actually do best docs in chase..because you may not believe it but doc requires more insight into how a survivor runs than you think..spamming shocks gets you no distance so timing is the key

  • Angelicus23
    Angelicus23 Member Posts: 2,547
    edited June 2020

    I stopped watching monto long ago. He fully got into being killer main and lately started a toxic attitude, last video of him I watched was tunneling a bunny feng and showing kinda rage on that for her using that outfit while bringing moris, he also uploaded videos before like oni's "I shouldn't be showing this build" which made more than once, and then other builds like this on doc.

  • Jasonisanicefella
    Jasonisanicefella Member Posts: 377

    Come on man, with all due respect, the doctor did not play well at all.

    On top of that you also used the most broken building in the entire game to win the first chase.

    At the T wall you should have been hit by a decent doctor, at the next pallet he swung through the pallet misjudging the distance pretty badly.

    That was not a competent doctor, he wasn't shocking at the right moments.

    The addons he was using were brown, so the shock range was limited and the build was questionable, since using a tracking perk on a tracking killer isn't optimised at all.

    You folks played well and deserved the win, still this does NOT satisfy my definition of a competent doctor.

    Good game anyway

  • Bovinity
    Bovinity Member Posts: 1,522

    In fairness, this basically like saying, "It's not fair that the killer can remove my defense by waiting out Dead Hard before swinging." or something similar.

    Yes, you have to deal with different killers in different ways. You can't be super greedy with pallets against Doc.

  • MrCookie
    MrCookie Member Posts: 121

    Let me spell it for you. If you and your team plays well you are likely to win against any killer. Now you just start finding excuses.

    The addon combo is busted, fair enough.

  • Dead_by_Gadfly
    Dead_by_Gadfly Member Posts: 3,772

    At 3:30 he says "unless you pre-throw the pallet youre not getting it down"

    Which is exactly what doc was meant to do, force you to throw the pallet early.

    Also im like 4 minutes in and every pallet has been thrown in a way that looked normal. Kate got shocked through the shack but she wasnt going to throw that anyway or at least she shouldnt have.

    I guess my point here is just because a streamer says something is broken doesnt mean its broken. He even said himself (right before declaring no pallets were ever going to be thrown and then being proven wrong) there are add on combos nastier than this, and there are.

  • Dead_by_Gadfly
    Dead_by_Gadfly Member Posts: 3,772

    Yup, it can actually lose you distance if youre not careful

  • ALostPuppy
    ALostPuppy Member Posts: 3,398

    As much as I like playing as and against Doctor...His discipline add-ons are broken as hell. People are complaining about the wrong things on Doctor. We should be talking about his add-ons rather than his basekit, because his default ability is fine.

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904

    This sounds more like I'm a one trick pony and this one killer doesn't let me use my one trick. I can't endlessly loop someone so its not fun for me nerf him.

  • supersonic853
    supersonic853 Member Posts: 5,540
    edited June 2020

    Like how when survivors found out ph isnt affected by ds and bt and rioted that his cage should activate them? I think survivors expect every killer to be solved by the same thing and thatd make the game boring if it was the case.

  • Mister_xD
    Mister_xD Member Posts: 7,669

    they should add the old debuff of a longer shock therapy charge back on the electrodes.

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,590
    edited June 2020

    None of this was uncounterable. Doc is just an above average mid tier killer. Going against survivors playing badly will make anything look strong.

  • InnCognito
    InnCognito Member Posts: 720

    Old doctor was MUCH more fun and oppressive to play as. He really could be countered by GOOD survivors though. To me, in his First iteration he felt like an amazing killer to play as. Since he threw madness everywhere at all times.

    My only suggestion would have been for the team to have considered a way for survivors to completely drop out of madness Tier 1. Static shocks did NOTHING to players other than location reveals, screaming and interrupt actions. I felt he could do a good job at pallet loops and stopped window vaults much better back then. Than now.

    Honestly though: Madness didn't do much other than create a few EASY skill checks.

  • stikyard
    stikyard Member Posts: 526

    So are we all going to ignore that on top of dominating loopers, it's almost impossible to hide, use stealth and, you have likely gone insane. You might want to snap out of it, if you get a chance.

    If you stay close, you scream. If you're far away, you've been revealed by BBQ. Add Hex: Ruin and Gen progress will likely be zero.

    Oh, btw, have fun!

  • edgarpoop
    edgarpoop Member Posts: 8,343

    Those survivors are making ridiculous mistakes. Doctor is very counterable. Check out the streams of survivors who play competitively and watch what happens to every Doctor they come across.

  • ryanb122197
    ryanb122197 Member Posts: 77

    The only addons I use are either moldy electrode or the yellow one with order add ons to reduce the cooldown with static blast and fake pallets.

  • TWiXT
    TWiXT Member Posts: 2,063

    The problem with the video is that it raises the question of unintended interactions between the add-ons. Discipline 3 (the add-on Monto is using) only decreases the delay in the shock therapy's detonation by 0.2 seconds. The normal time to charge a shock therapy attack is 1 second, followed up immediately after with a 1 second delay before the whole AOE detonates to hit any survivor(s) still in it, lowering that delay by 0.2 seconds puts it at 0.8 seconds which isn't even a noticeable difference from 1 second.

    So when it comes to the video, people seeing the difference are either

    1. Tricking themselves into believing they notice the difference due to the add-on's description, or
    2. Actually noticing a difference because the add-ons interactions with each-other are lowering the detonation delay further than intended.

    The only time I've seen a difference is when I stack the top 2 discipline add-ons, because combined they reduce the detonation delay to 0.5 seconds, which unlike 0.8 seconds is actually noticeable. So how would 0.8 seconds become noticeable at all just because you added a range extending add-on, when the entire AoE field is locked on a 0.8 seconds timer before it detonates?

  • Mellow7
    Mellow7 Member Posts: 793

    Exactly, it's just a placebo that survivor's give themselves because the add-on has no actually number but instead the same lazy "considerably, Moderately and Slighty" Bull crap.

  • thesuicidefox
    thesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,223

    #CancelDoc

    Devs said they wanted to make Doc more fun/less frustrating to go against. My oh my how hard did they fail at that one. He's worse than before.