Killers vs. Survivors
This is the biggest problem of this game by far. The fight between survivor mains and killer mains. We just can't agree, can we ? The only thing (that I know of) both sides agree on is : iri head. That's all. So, I will give some information first.
The game is balanced around 2k 2 escape and solo survivors. SWFs don't ruin the game but they basically disable most killers' powers. Trapper, Hag, Wraith, Shape, Ghostface, Demogorgon. If the whole team knows where Ghostface and Shape is stalking from, Trapper's and Hag's traps are, Demogorgon's portals are and where Wraith is, all of these killers at best become M1 killers and at worst become useless.
SWFs don't need to be too competent to win. You can just "have fun with your friends" and still have a huge adventage. A decent killer (green or purple ranks) can counter somewhat good SWFs but the way matchmaking works right now, its impossible to get people at your skill at these ranks.
But if you are a solo survivor decent killers can destroy you. This is important, you'll see why.
Since the devs balance the game around solo survivors, killers get nerfed. The maps get bigger, powerful perks get nerfed and so on but the important part is, since the survivors get soft-buffed, SWFs get even more stronger. As a casual player that doesn't like competitive too much I can say that, playing killer has become stressful at best and infuriating at worst. This needs to change.
Playing survivor is way easier than playing killer. I know that killer should be harder but it shouldn't be scary. I am scared of the survivors that will be going against me. While playing survivor is the easiest thing. If you press shift and get to a window AND the killer commits to you, the game is over. Even if you die, the killer will have a 1k.
While survivors claim that killers are too op with their iri heads, moris and NOEDs, killers claim that survivors are too op with their keys, BNPs and 2nd chance perks and items. This really needs to be sorted out by either the players uniting under the common goal of balancing this game or the devs balancing it.
I don't know how to balance this game. You need to make SWFs weaker but nerf survivors while also maintaining the balance between the killer and the solo survivor.
I would really like to hear your thoughts on this.
Comments
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I think the game is mostly balanced. Keys, Moris and iri heads suck though. I would prefer if they buffed solo players and killers accordingly since you can't really nerf SWF. And SWF is very important for this game and helps to keep the big playerbase this game has.
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You are really missing the point here.
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There are two solutions. Remove SWF, which will not happen. Or elevate solos to SWF level via things like "if your teammate is looking at the killer, see the killer's aura", and then buff all killers to compete with this level of power. Given that BHVR doesn't even want to give default Kindred, that's also probably too intimidating for them to attempt. BHVR balances around lower level players getting a horror experience more than competitive players having a balanced one.
I imagine that in a DbD sequel, we will see more substantial changes.
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This game does probably need more in the balancing department to account for SWF, rather than purely solo play. A clear goal within games would also be nice, even if it is just the devs saying LOOK AT THE PIP SYSTEM, DO THAT.
There is also the issue of those who play only one side or rarely play the other side and don't really consider their point of view. Some of these opinions are more detrimental to the game than any other opinion shared.
Reviewing older perks and powers/killers similar to the Freddy and Doctor reworks would also be nice, as some of the earliest stuff from the seem kinda lacklustre compared to some of the newer stuff. The only other thing I could say is making very niche perks very strong at the one thing they do. Soul Guard does seem more like a step in this direction, while a perk like Camaraderie are too limited in what they do for the little reward they offer. One change I'd suggest is having Breakdown work for when you unhook, as well as being unhooked or have them sabotaged for a VERY long time.
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The game has never been easier for killers. The match making makes it feel far more unbalanced than it is. If they could get rid of the dead zones on maps, make dedicated servers function properly, and fix match making. The game would be as close to balanced as it ever will be.
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Playing killer is a 50/50 right now. You either get perfect survivors or get realy trash survivors. If you only look at the trash part of it, I guess you are right.
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Yeah camaraderie is petty bad, i don't think it would be very useful, even in the case of a face camping bubba. Unless you are on coms or something, than maybe it might be useful against a face camping bubba, to maybe give your team more time to do gens and get out. That is really the only case i can really think of, where it might be useful. Might. Which yeah is it one of these perks that needs to be looked over, along with furtive chase. Like why would i use furtive chase, when Nemesis exists and allows you to change always ensure you have a obsession, even if the old one dies off. That or if i want to sneak up on people easier, monitor and abuse exists. Which it's main effect [for furtive chase]is a smaller terror radius in a chase. I'm not sure how that would be helpful during a chase. Maybe there is something i overlooked but i don't see why anyone would want to run this perk over, monitor and abuse if they want to be sneaky or Nemesis for a obsession build. That or if one wants to be sneaky, they can just play, pig, wraith, ghostface or even Myers if their goal is to be sneaky and get them jumpscares or just to mind game folks during the chase.
That and yeah, also add on reworks for some survivor items and killers like pig, ghostface, ect ect. Yeah both sides need some loving.
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The problem is not all swf are the optimal gen rushing sort. If theyre not that they are beatable. You just have to get your hands dirty.
I have a simple rule and idc if theyre swf or not, though it helps if they are. If were down to 1 gens left and ive only got 1 or 2 hooks, either because i f'd up or because the gen rush is real, then someones going in the basement. If i cant get you in tge basement whatever someones getting camped. At that point the gens are gone anyway. Ive turned massive losses into 4k merciless this way before, at tge very least im pulling 1k brutal. Doing this its become exceedingly rare i depip (of course that still happens occasionally, im not a god)
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killers vs. survivors title.
Proceeds to make poor killer post No. 2,347,997
Next.
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Welcome to the killer forums, there's a few decent survivors mains that do some good push back here but mostly its just killers talking in a bubble.
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Can you debunk me, please ? Like I said, I would really like to hear your opinion on this.
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Hahaha, good one. Best joke I've heard in a while.
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I can agree that iri heads are broken and has no place in DBD. As a new player and how bad matchmaking is, it is hard for me to say anything about actual balance in this game.
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And the same can be said of playing survivor. You either get good team mates or garbage ones. Which is why I listed match making as needing fixed to reach balance.
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Me as solo player playing 50% survivor and 50% killer can say that both sides have reason to complain about a lot of things. But all games are different and can be too easy or really too hard and unfair, no matter if you play killer or survivor. The game will never be fair, but it's still pretty fun most of the time yes? So let's continue to win some and to lose some.
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Nice bubble.
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Hahaha, good one. Best joke I've heard in a while.
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OK, sorry formatting, copy and pasta below:
Since release, killer has been buffed, survivor nerfed. This is important to understand and through examples you’ll see why that has happened. It shows you why the game has had the trajectory it has and why we are now in our current quagmire.
It all started with the introduction of swf and the 2 escapes, 2 kills devs unit of metric. You don’t have to like the metric but it’s whats given the survivors all their nerfs and all the killers current buffs.
The devs failed to understand that people would want to play with friends in an online game (serious), what we got was ‘lobby wars’. Where survivors would join different lobbies looking for their friends and leave if they couldn’t find them. It was horrible trying to find games. Hence why we got swf, that completely unbalanced the game by creating coordinated survivors that could communicate. The devs have been nerfing survivor ever since and completely crippled solo survivor play.
Killers now are up around 70% kills due to the trajectory of the game and the devs metric system, unless you feel their metric system is bad, in which case they can undo all the changes I've just mentioned....
It also important to mention marketing and advertising. There’s nothing special about survivors, they are just reskins with some new perks that all play the same. THATS IT. EACH killer has its own unique play style and as you see from their advertising, its always new killers they promote. Survivors get a mention, but its never really the selling point.
DBD reddit, back in the day was all about poking fun at survivors and giving you the impression that every second game is SWF and heavily biased against killers. Which was a lie. OP SWF games are maybe one in 30 games with most swf games being friends who are just wanting to have fun and usually end up wiping. But there was no push back, the killer echo room there would down vote anything survivor sided.
That coupled with the points I mentioned previously meant that a lot of survivor mains left the game. Which is kind of obvious, I mean you understand the devs unit of metric sure, but you just watch nerf, after nerf, after nerf as it all gets taken away. Why would you stay for that? Its kind of miserable.
What has this created? In short. Entitlement. Killer mains know if they whine, they get what they want.
THIS is the environment the devs have created and what you see on the forums.
Trajectory of this game
Infinites gone, vaulting/perk/map/pallet nerfs, bloodlust added, end game timer added, hatch close added. All this has made being killer easier and survivor harder since release.
2 escapes, 2 kills is the devs unit of metric. You don’t have to like that but it’s whats given the survivors all their nerfs and all the killers current buffs.
You look at the SB vs. NOED debates that happend at release all those years ago. SB now is mediocre at best where as NOED is still a high tier perk.
Killers now are up around 70% kills due to the trajectory of the game and the devs metric system, unless you feel their metric system is bad, in which case they can undo all the changes I've just mentioned....
It's only been recently that killers have started getting push back from devs because the state of the game is disconnecting survivors who know a game is going to end in a 4k so why bother for 3k BP.
And what do we see? Thread after thread recently of nurse players whining, legion players whining. People talk about salty survivors alot in this forum but ignore the elephant in the room.
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As someone who only solo survivors. It truly is a coin flip, if your team mates will have a idea of what they are doing or not.
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I'd say I'm 90% of the time solo. The rest of the time a 2 man. And yes, the pain is real.
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Hahaha, good one. Best joke I've heard in a while.
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You know, you have a very limited vocabulary.
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Hahaha, good one. Best joke I've heard in a while.
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Yeah, you know it's going to be a "fun" solo survivor game, when someone dcs after getting down or kill themselves on first hook.
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I especially like the ones where 3 people are downed in 2 minutes. I'm not the best survivor. So when I can tell it's up to me to carry the team I know we're in trouble.
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Alright. So let's unpack this, shall we ?
Killers have been buffed because they need it. Like you said, 2k 2 escape, so that's why.
There is ONE killer that takes no skill to play and that's the Nightmare, if you complain about him, that's understandable. But there are killers that really really REALLY need buffs. Trapper is one example. There is also Clown, Leatherface and so on. You should take into account that not everyone has all killers maxed out. I don't have a single DLC killer ! The devs also have to take that into account, so write this onto your mind.
Trajectory of this game part :
Infinites gone : Should they stay ? Should you be able to loop a killer endlessly ?
Vaulting/map/perk/pallet nerfs : Vaulting feels much more smooth now, maps got bigger, killers have perk nerfs aswell and I don't know about pallet nerfs.
Bloodlust : If you encounter a baby killer, you can pretty much loop him for 5 years. That's why bloodlust was added. Red ranks don't use bloodlust that often anyway.
End game timer : There are 2 doors in the game. You need to police them both. If players just hide in a bush with Spine Chill and just hide in the bush again when you come back, there is nothing you can do.
Hatch close : OK, so you want 3 doors ?
You're saying this made killer easier and survivor harder. Yes, it did do that but it also balanced stuff out. If you look at them now, they look broken because they WERE broken !
If a survivor knows that the killer is going to get a 4k, which most survivors disconnect very early onto the game because they were outplayed or something, then the survivors did something wrong. It's not the killers fault for being good.
Nurse and Legion are hard killers but Nurse is balanced imo. Legion is in a weird spot.
A salty killer is easy to find. They show themselves.
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I had that happen the other day vs a bubba and again during a huntress. Had to make all the saves, to keep the game from ending in like five minutes.
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I know this is by far an unpopular opinion, but the truest way to address SWF in my eyes is to bring voicechat (only if you have the ability to mute certain players and turn it off all together) and balance the game around that. But this game has been communication limited from the start, so unless there is a real push for it (and there won't be) it just won't happen.
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Well, that's not a bad idea actually
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As a newer player myself I can relate in feeling stressed when it comes to playing killer. When you're just starting out at level 20 it's not so bad, but as you move up through the ranks the game has a wicked difficulty spike. Before long you realize that ranks don't matter as your "level" is in no way indicative of your skill, which in turn makes this game a nightmare for newer players. I used to wonder how a level 15 survivor could have so many fully upgraded teachables from other survivors, and then it dawned on me that it was because it was a very experienced player who hasn't played for a few months.
The new MMR can't get here soon enough!
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I think the easiest solution is to buff Solo's to SWF level, so maybe a built in kindred, or I remember seeing someone else's comment about how your status shows what you're doing (i.e, repairing, getting chased, healing). I found that one interesting. And if the devs do take that route, buff killers to deal with the survivors.
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You just turn every group into a pseudo-SWF by relaying essential information through the game - who's working on a gen, who's getting chased, who's healing - whether that's through more detailed portrait information or whatever. That gives everybody "comms." Then balance around that instead of balancing around the assumption that nobody knows what anybody else is doing.
The problem is that the game is balanced around one person playing four 1v1s at the same time, and not balanced around an actual asymmetric 4v1 environment. It works okay until survivors get good enough to cooperate despite the limited information, or until people party up. Once they start cooperating then you have one person playing a 4v1 where each of the 4 can "beat" (counter) them on their own, which is unhealthy.
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I tried to give you something comprehensive referring to stats and units of metric. In response some of your points were lukewarm, if were being honest.
You skipped over things like pallet nerfs and state "I'm not sure', which then makes it hard to take most of what else you said seriously.
I mean the question over infinites is fine but it COMPLETELY ignores the context which is that it was a nerf to survivors so therefore benefited killers.
And your argument about end game timer is probably the best example of your bias, Its literally one select example that may play out: I mean what if, as a survivor, you have adjacent doors, with a high mobility killer during end game? There's absolutely no point to try for those doors, youre better off farming totems/hooks till timer ends if hatch is closed. But once again, its side point, the main one being 'survivor harder, killer easier'.
So I'll just defer to my first post in this thread.
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Playing killer is more stressful than playing survivor, that’s for sure. Just because you are 1 player who is the whole match in action, defend gens, prepare traps, go for chases... a survivor has moments when he can relaxing by doing gens.
But I don’t understand the big problem around swfs. They have advantages with communication, but if a solo surv use kindred, empathy or alert, he can get important informations too. A lot of swfs kill themself cause they are very altruistic and go for risky unhooks or they all get injured by taking hits... a killer often benefits of this playstyle. It’s very rare that all 4 survivors have the same good skill level. And if a killer runs against a very good and well coordinated swf then he gets maybe only 1 kill, but that’s balance, some matches with 4k, some with 3k or 2k and matches with 0k or only 1k.
Don‘t forget: the killer decides the kind of match, by using a special killer with his addons, tunnel, camp, 3gen, slugging...
And @Erk
Don‘t place traps (hag or trapper) near a hooked survivor. Hook a survivor in a area where you have placed traps before ;)
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I already do that
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If you don't take any of what I said seriously then that's on you.
If the survivor comes to an Endgame Collapse, its their fault that they are at that stage.
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It will never be balanced to some players, especially Survivors. I will make an example, a Killer vs same 4 Survivors in 4 matches.
- Killer gets 2 kill in each match
- Survivor1: 3 escape / 1 dead
- Survivor2: 2 escape / 2 dead
- Survivor3: 2 escape / 2 dead
- Survivor4: 1 escape / 3 dead
Survivor4 will complain about how Op Killer is.
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That example looks only in 4 matches... maybe the next 4 matches „survivor 4“ have 3 escapes and 1 death, so it will be balanced 4:4 ...
I understand the point you make and that’s right cause there will always be a player who gets killed again and again. But maybe this player is mostly carried by his teammates and hasn’t enough skill for his rank or compared to the killer he goes against. Everybody have days when you only escape few matches, but on other days you escape very often.
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