New killer promotes tunneling.
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I was excited for this chapter but its absolute garbage.
Gameplay on the new map is terrible and its getting force fed down our throats. Please put this back into normal rotation.
All im seeing is camping/tunneling PH, this is red ranks ffs.
New chapters are supposed to be exciting but this is the most bored ive been in DBD in 3 years.
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Love how survivors are complaining about tunneling now that there’s an actual killer who can counter meta survivor perks of DS and BT...when the devs finally give an answer to those perks
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All of your arguments are pretty much invalid because the devs said so themselves, those stats cannot be accounted for balance. If survivors actually tryharded instead of derping around, if they actually played optimal then these killrates would be WAY lower.
A good survivor will at least take a minute to go down unless there's no more ressources left or he's facing a nurse/billy in the open or a good spirit, it's a fact that has been done to death by the depip squad (and yes, they made a new video even after all the survivor nerfs".
Let's face it, killers will tryhard most of the time because that's the only thing they can do, it's 1v4, they have nobody to talk to while it's very rare to find a really optimal team that plays it absolutely boring and incredibly safe.
Otherwise if we take your metric then killers would be ridiculously broken and for some reason devs keep nerfing survivors even tho they're 80% of the playerbase literally while also accounting for most cosmetics. Which makes 0 sense, so from this standpoint alone the balance currently is in favour of survivors still.
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Yea stats really don’t account for the fact that most survivors are bad/trolling. I also find it funny that most survivors point to the stats to “prove” that killers are fine, while ignoring things like Nurse’s always low kill stats. Stats matter, except when you don’t want them to matter.
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Honestly, I tried using the hardcore tunnel strat once, and I don't see it as a good way to play him.
The thing that I like about his cage, is that you can strategically force people to be smart about saves, its actually crazy how many survivors still try to rush hooks/cages, even though he punishes exactly that behaviour in two ways, both with cages not triggering ds/bt, and the double injure/down via his power. The thing that makes him strong right now, is that most survivors seem to deny the fact that they have to be carefull about unhooks.
Had a dwight that ran 10 meters past me straight to the cage, I obviously followed him and as soon as he unhooked I m2'd them both and hooked the downed survivor, before chasing the injured one, doubling my pressure. While I did feel bad for the survivor, a killer is still supposed to punish mistakes like that and slugging a ds during a stupid safe (even worse with bt) isn't the same. The fact that they get send to the other side of the map definitly is a good thing though, no question asked.
The main thing that frustrates me as a survivor is not the killer ignoring my ds if I decide to bring it, but my teammate making stupid plays and getting me/both of us killed that way. But thats the fault of my teammate, or if I do a wrong play in that situation, mine and not the killers.
Tunneling exists with any killer, while sometimes it can be the right play, a lot of those people just want to ruin the game of a person. Pyramid Head doesn't promote tunneling any more than other killers, he just discourages unsafe unhooks.
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PH has made Tunneling and camping a lot stronger due to his power.
He’s broken in a number of ways. How he made it out of PTB like this is beyond me... It took killers a few hours to work out he’s strong at tunnelling. PTB had 2 weeks ffs
Ph will have some hotfixes, just gotta wait until then
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DS and BT only work on tunneling killers soo.. Yeah they're strong because salty killers are everywhere.
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See the main issue there is with your first point. Killer mains actually run on salt as opposed to blood points.
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He's far from too powerful. No need to nerf him imo
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Well.. survivors’ meta perks encourage them to play like d*ckheads but I guess that’s fine huh?
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I mean I really dont like the way survivors abuse ds and borrowed most of the time. But ive seen so many survivors die with like 1k points since they either never got out of the cage or got downed immidiately after they got out. Like all this follow the survivor rulebook bs is one thing but a survivor who wants to play and have fun and queues like 10 Minutes just to See himself die in a cage for 4 Minutes and then goes back to queuing 10 Minutes while having earned 1000 points for the chase isn't okay either imo. And a Lot of ph especially in mid ranks play like this. Like just dont make him See the cage so ppl can get there before him. I honestly dont see the Problem with that
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I'm not going to read through all the comments up to page 3, but just off the first page all of these are incredibly true and valid points.
BT is powerful, but DS is absolutely broken and borderline unhealthy for the game, the fact that when these two perks finally receive a legitimate counter people get up in arms is extremely telling. Reminds me a lot of how many killers were up in arms over the Hex: Ruin nerf, people don't like it, but it needed / needs to happen.
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I mean its a difference between counter and abusing. Like as a killer main i know how frustrating it is to get Hit by ds At key Moments or survs sitting in lockers etc. But countering that by going "ha u can't use ds so now i will kill u off in the First 3 Minutes of the game without u being able to get some points for repair or heal or anything can't be the answer imo. Its countering bullsh. with bullsh. Just makes everything worse.
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Please. With all due respect, DS has been "bullsh" for almost 4 years now ever since the Halloween chapter came out in 2016. Can you believe that? A perk created almost 4 years ago has been receiving complaints for its entire four years of EXISTENCE. And instead of changing what has been a problem for 4 years, people insist on fixing the "problem" created YESTERDAY?? That's insane.
DS is problematic far beyond "getting hit by ds at key moments" and boiling it down to such an oversimplification is a massive understatement to the problems it creates even in 2020. To put it quite simply it is no longer used as an anti-tunneling perk like the rework originally intended, it is instead used as a "get out of jail free card" to facilitate extremely aggressive or extremely sloppy and stupid plays, to the point of practically serving as an "extra hook state" as @Valor188917 put it.
Saying DS is "bullsh" is putting it mildly, DS was "bullsh" before, but as time goes on and survivors become more innovative and find new inventive ways to abuse mechanics and perks in ways that weren't intended, DS has become an utter plague. Survivors have learned how to effectively maximize the output of Decisive and milk the perk for everything it's goddamn worth during a trial, and the killer previously could do absolutely nothing about it. and for 19 out 20 playable killers, they STILL can't do anything about it. Just because it's less effective on PH doesn't mean squat for everybody who: doesn't like PH or his playstyle, prefers to play other killers / their own mains, doesn't own the DLC or even just the character at all in the first place, etc.
At the same time, the counter PH has isn't even complete "bullsh" like how you described, since you must be tormented in order for PH to be able to use the ability, and Rites of Judgement can be countered and avoided whether by simply walking around or crouching through (Urban Evasion much??). Unlike killers and DS, survivors can in most cases avoid being tormented and stuck in the cage of atonement.
On top of that, perks like DS (and BT) were never meant to be 100% foolproof in the first place you're never guaranteed to escape a chase or the match just because you chose to run DS and if that were true, then DS would be even more problematic and unbalanced than it already is.
So no, I don't believe it's "countering bullsh. with bullsh." far from it. It's a mechanic that is entirely warranted, and entirely deserved. And for everybody else don't think that for a minute this lets DS off the hook for its eventual nerf because it still needs one, again, for 19 out of 20 killers it is still business casual for survivors who get to abuse this perk.
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Aside from that, I love how people complain about a killer taking 3 minutes to do 25% of his objective with optimal tunneling while survivors take 3 minutes to do 80% of their objective in that time by holding m1. Also the Pyramid with this playstyle does not hardcounter BT, he only makes it 50% less useful because of 1 hook less but I found it increadibly easy to not get tormented by most pyramid heads by just not looping since many still don't use their power just on random spots like freddy does with his snares but that will probably change as people figure out there's no negative to occasionally just dragging your sword around for short patches of torment.
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Been a killer main since i started playing and I gotta say he isn't strong. He has no major benefit during a chase and his ranged attack is pretty easy to dodge. You basically HAVE to wait for an animation lock to hit it. But. I haven't had this much fun with a killer in a while. He rewards planning and is really good at punishing reckless survivors. His cages I've found to be pretty weak because I maybe have a person in there 30 seconds before they get rescued. I think the free micro Mori is a nice touch but once again its punishing survivors who play reckless. I think for a looong time the Meta survivor perks let people get away with clumsy plays and now a killer has come out that really puts pressure on the survivors to make good choices. Do I think a stealth focused build will beat him? ABSOLUTELY. But if you run around like a headless chicken, relying on second chance perks that have dominated the survivor meta, you are gonna get caged and eventually mori'd which I think is a nice change. This is what happens when an anti-meta character shows up.
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I mean I agree with you on the DS part. I'm a rank 1 killer Main and only play survivor for the archives rn and I will switch back to killer once I did all the archives stuff. So I'd rather see DS getting reworked earlier than later and I'm fine with PH staying this way honestly. Like the stronger he is the better.
I'm just saying that I noticed during the time I played survivor in like the mid ranks now (mostly rank 6-16 teammates) I've seen a lot of ppl go back to queue with 1k points max since they got tunneled to absolute oblivion by PH right from the start. Like I imagine in higher ranks where people actually think about how to beat it and have better teamplay even as randoms it becomes far less of a problem. And I mean I got cursed like 3 times in 14 games against him and use urban so yeah if u know what ur doing its not that hard to counter. But in these ranks ppl will get cursed and be it just cause u get a random rank 16 survivor who doesnt understand what he does and how to counter it. And most of these ppl dont even know how to abuse DS I would argue.
And I mean what Valor said yeah he completes 25% of the objective fast and efficiently. But behind that objective also is another player that queued for the game who knows how long and then in worst case gets in once chase and can see himself die in a cage for 4 minutes now cause he got cursed. Like maybe my mindset doesnt match up with DBD but shouldnt everyone be able to gather points and try to have fun rather than just to somehow destroy the other party?
Like I said I dont care if they leave him this way, I'll probs be happier if they do. But out of 14 games I played against him I had like 10 where i looked at the scoreboard and one or two survivors stayed below 2k points. Might not be a huge problem in red ranks I dunno since im not playing there but in mid ranks as solo queue it feels like an absolute disaster. And I mean maybe ppl in those ranks will figure out how to play against him eventually but rn in mid ranks it just feels impossible to escape if the killer uses that tactic since noone can or wants to counterplay it.
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Ironic coming from the guy quoting stats where the devs themselves said they are not grounds for balance in DBD for obvious reasons.
Again, by your point, killers would not only be overpowered but absolutely broken with a 70% killrate and would need to be HEAVILY nerfed yet devs nerfed survivors 2 times since those stats overall and are now acclimatizing their playerbase to play with DS/BT less often.
We had depip squad already prove what everybody is telling you here, they could do the same again by the way. Now unless you show me a Freddy that does 100 4/3ks in a row then I'll just stick to an empiric test over your "stats".
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Main Huntres here and i love the fact that people can't acknowledge the fact that PH it's the perfect killer for tunneling, tunneling is when you hook a survivor and ignore the rest of the people(even if they are injured) just to hit the same guy again and hook, i know that there's a lot of cases when you down a survivor and leave them and pick 59s later and got DS(That's annoying and unfair) BUT PH players aren't avoid DS playing right they literraly put you in the cage and cross the map to tunnel you when you get saved and DS and BT don't work on cages.
Me as a Huntres main like i sad feels very bad to have to play so skillfull to get 4k with her and a kid with 10 years can literraly get 4k with PH without any perk just because his main power is the tunnel, great PH players know that the best way to get a hit it's literraly use the power on the loop to afraid survivor from the torment and right after cancel the power and use m1 his zoning power it's the better of all killer and at anytime you gonna get torment it's almost impossible to not get torment even by acident steping on a spike on the grass or bugs like i was doing generator and sudleny i got torment for no reason '-' the unique fact that i like in PH is that he's cool and have interesting perks but people are using him in the worst way possible, he was relesead two days ago and people are almost more toxic with him than freedy mains(Never saw ONE good main freedy that winned because of skill, most of them are very bad player that are literraly carried by freed broken power, even taking almost 1m of chase they can still win because of easy/high reward freedy hability)
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In such a subjective experience as a DbD match with the sheer number of unknown variables, pretty much any stats you get out of it are going to be either meaningless or able to be read in whichever direction you want. That's the thing about stats, you've got to use them really carefully, especially in the social sciences (and a multiplayer game like DbD bears a closer relationship to sociology than physics).
Balancing this kind of game is as much an art as it is a science.
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Generally I do think you should try to maintain a 2e/2k average, yes, but you also have to acknowledge that this game is pretty heavily survivor-sided (in terms of balance) once you get to mid-ranks. That's when you (anecdotally, but undeniably) start seeing survivors hunting down killers to engage chases in which they have the macro advantage of time pressure.
Which means 2e/2k is a poor metric for balancing decision-making, as survivors have more gameplay options than killers - if survivors are OP the average is still likely to be 2e/2k as survivors will always push their advantages to the brink (as they should be expected to) and suffer a lot of unnecessary and avoidable deaths. They are less concerned with a 4e, in other words. However killers will always try to 4k. So a better metric would be to aim for an average of 1e/3k, as that would indicate that survivors are actually having issues and you have a good baseline to start making balance decisions to nudge it towards that 2e/2k spot.
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Tl;dr below
I can point out that you mentioned it yourself; PH has to book it to the cage.
He's not a tunneling POS. He's a camping pos, which is a sharp contrast to the former, mind you!
Tunneling is an extension of camping, all of which is completely in the hands of the survivors. PH cannot tunnel as effectively as other ranged killers, but at 115% with some range, he's more effective than others. This is not his strength, as his ability alters the environment with static hazards. He zones and sets up perimeters, which makes him a highly effective camper, with above par tunneling skills.
In fact, this is his greatest weakness! I've learned the last few days that PH has 0 location ability if you steer totally clear of his hazards or make the concerted effort not to become cursed. He cannot find immersed Claudette, but he can stab thru walls and in the dark and strike a silent Jake.
TL;DR Try immersive on PH and gradually go back to gen jockey.
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Hasn't this been said about every killer since legion?
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Stats can easily be taken out of context and misused. It’s really not that hard to do.
And yea, i’ve never been apart of the nerf killer echo chambers in this community.
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Are you tinfoil hatting that true has any influence on this game? I'm fairly certain that the devs know that while influencers help a bit they aren't end-all be-all esp if they're as small as true, I can't think of a single change he's strongarmed, not even scottjund who is way more respected AND skilled than true (who's more of an entertainer btw) was able to convince the devs to rework the maps in his suggested ways (which btw I think would've made the game worse so I'm not fanboying here). He's no Jim Sterling or Total Biscuit. Also I don't care if I'm getting support, I'm just plain right, this killer doesn't need a nerf at all, he has crappy pressure and is still garbage compared to freddy/spirit/nurse/billy. If ppl don't support nerfing the top4 then they shouldn't support nerfing PH unless they wanna continue playing against the same killers over and over and over.
Asmongold got an ashes of creation key, you know what it did for the game? Nothing. Monto was pushing for hide or die, know what it did for the games he tries to push? Nothing. Influencers are WAY overvalued unless they are industry TITANS. Most people just watch them and don't give a toss about playing those games themselves.
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It's true we as more experienced players should account for the experiences of newer players who aren't going to be sweating with the rest of us in red ranks. At the same time though, balancing around these fresher players is not something I would ever advocate for.
Gameplay should for the most part be balanced around what the highest tiers of players can do, Dead By Daylight is a game all about adapting, both in the moment during a trial, and for the overarching balance changes that are made over time. It stands to reason that players even in the mid-range of ranks, obviously wouldn't be able to adapt as quickly as those higher up the ranks so it makes absolute sense you'd see those players get demolished in their games when a new chapter has just released. But over time, even they will adapt just like the rest of us.
At the same time most of this branch of the conversation doesn't relate to DS, I would hardly expect these mid-to-low ranked survivors be able to "milk decisive" in the way that I described initially, that's not quite the group I'm looking at when it comes to balancing a problem perk like DS.
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Honestly, the current survivor meta is just infinite lives with extra steps. Dead hard, borrowed time, decisive and unbreakable.
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Meanwhile one of the best killer perks is 25% gen regression after a hook LUL
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He bypasses more than bt and DS.
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Stop playing with your fake "rulebook"
Honestly as a survivor i enjoy getting tunneled. Means i got into their head, and i get to play the most fun part of the game, the chase, and not sit and hold m1 for 80 seconds.
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I have been playing PH nonstop since he released, and its pretty easy how fast you learn the cage spawns. I can generally figure out where someone is going to spawn before i cage them and usually can get there in time. Regardless of if someone beats me there, while running sloppy i can usually beat them to the heal. And even if i don't other survivors generally throw themselves at me to prevent me from tunneling most of the time, which means they aren't doing gens.
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Cage spawns are always the same, its pretty easy to learn them and know where the cage is going before you even do it.
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Just had a match where pyramid Head deliberately circled around generators with the red stuff going around them. Preventing survivors from escaping😒.
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For the record, if you come across me on Switch; SpukyStaby... STOP LEADING ME BACK TO THE DAMN CAGE. I just sent that poor person there, they don't wanna see me, I don't wanna see them. Every. #########. Time. The ENTIRE squad just rushes for the cage. How about somebody be the bait and lead me on a loop or play hide and seek around rocks or trees while the other two go rescue? Or how about TWO stay behind and run criss-cross to throw me off while one goes for a stealth rescue? I mean seriously, I'm a Killer telling Survies HOW TO ######### SURVIVE. You can't possibly suck this bad, I don't care what rank or playtime you have in the game, no one could or should be this ######### brain dead that the devs release an OBVIOUSLY ANTI-TUNNELING KILLER to address the waves of cry hard, boo hoo, OP salt threads on here on a daily basis only for YOU ######### MORONS TO THEN CONTINUOUSLY KITE SAID KILLER STRAIGHT BACK TO THE STILL CAGED PERSON EVERY ######### TIME IN EVERY ######### MATCH AND THEN CRY NEW KILLER TUNNELS LIKE A ######### MOLE!! WAH!! NB4 pearl clutching I'm not bashing every single Survivor, just specifically the ones who engage in all of the aforementioned behaviours.
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Ironic
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Or you know, try stealth, just don't rush the hook, heck even his torment is meant to be stealthed through.
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Actually i am. If most people suck, the stats are going to show high kill rates.
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You have absolutely nothing to prove that the game is catered to “baby” killers. That’s just you spewing your agenda.
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So because they removed infinites and broken stuctures and healing speed, they are now catering to baby killers? Of course the stats are higher now, the game was literally broken early on.
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Getting rid of broken game design is catering to baby killers. Makes sense.
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He circled around 3 gens at once? get gud kiddo 😎
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