CAMP and TUNNEL penalties suggestion
Hello Everyone !
The big, big, big problems that are Camping and Tunneling. It’s not fun. Some killers camp when three survivors are all trying to unhook the fourth. And some tunnel because a survivor is teabagging them.
But come on, most of the campers and tunnelers do so for one or all of the three following reasons :
A) Trolling. (Basic trolling.)
B) Secure a kill. (And feel that they’re the best player in the game, which they’re not.)
C) Rank up. (And troll better survivors, I guess ?)
So, I thought A LOT about this in the past three years, and maybe I have a solution. (I’m not sure about the distances, so maybe I could use some help wth that :) )
1) CAMPING PENALTY
- If the killer stays within 16 meters around a hooked survivor while NOT IN A CHASE for 33 % of the amount of time the survivor stays on the hook (I think it’s around 40 seconds for a full hook health), they will get the FIRST punishment : The Killer won’t be able to rank up at the end of the match, even if they have really good stats otherwise.
- If the killer stays within 16 meters around a hooked survivor while NOT IN A CHASE for 66 % of the amount of time the survivor stays on the hook (around 80 seconds for a full hook health), they will get the SECOND punishment : The Killer will rank one level down, not matter what stats they have otherwise.
- When getting to the 33% of time camp, the Killer will receive an auditory and visual warning (I picture it like a red contour of the screen). They will NOT get warning for the 66%, because I bet most killers in this situation will just troll harder the entire time left.
- Each second within the hook radius enters in calculation. The punishment will not only occur if you stay 33/66% seconds in a row. You will be punish if you go back and forth, in and out the radius, and reach 33% of “hook time” inside it (33% is a lot, you'll really have to push it HARD, so don't complain) .
PARTICULARITIES :
- If the killer chase someone near a hooked survivor, that is obviously not camping. It’s the free survivor’s fault (and their stupidity) if the killer stays around the hook.
- The percentage is calculated on the total amount of time the survivor stays on the hook. If a survivor tries to unhook themselves and fail (each attempt cost 16.666% of the hook health, or 20 seconds), it’s on them. So if as a survivor you want the killer to get the full punishment, you’ll have to wait. That way the camping can really be established by the algorithm.
--> Other example : I decide to camp during the first half of the hook health, to get the survivor in the second half (struggling). I leave them, they get rescued and I rehook them (at any moment of the match), putting them in immediate sacrifice by the entity. I will surely get the SECOND punishment, for the percentage calculated is of the amount of time the survivor was on the hook (the entire first part of the hook, and few seconds of the second part [struggling[ before I leave them be).
- During the Endgame collapse, the distance will increase to 24 meters around the hook. This will force the killer to move much more, as survivors now have a time limit to save their teammate. (If their teammates are near, you will surely be in chases most of the time and won’t be punish if you camp, unless they’re good at hiding and you can’t find them.)
- The Undetectable Status effect grants a reduction of the “unauthorized” radius : from 16 to 10 meters during the match, from 24 meters to 16 meters during the Endgame Collapse. This reduction only occurs if you are moving (which excludes “Insidious” and all the Bubba trolls with it, or simply basement camping).
2) NON-TUNNELING REWARD
As camping, tunneling is not fun at all. But punishing tunneling as hard as camping is not the solution (from my point of view). Instead, we should mostly reward the non-tunneling killers who, consciously or not, balance their gameplay by allowing everybody a chance to have fun.
So, I suggest a small penalty for tunneling and a big reward for non-tunneling :
- When unhooked for the first time, the 1st/2nd/3rd/4th hooked survivor gets the « Second Chance » status effect for 60/50/40/30 seconds. If the killer hooks them a second time without hooking someone else before the end of the effect, they’re granted +1 000 BP and the killer suffer a -2 000 BP penalty.
- If the killer hooks at least THREE DIFFERENT survivors in a row for the first time, they (the killer) are rewarded +6 000 BP (or more, it has to be big to be motivating).
PARTICULARITIES :
- The « Second Chance » status effect and penalty only occurs between the First and Second hooking. Hooking the same survivor right after their second hooking does not count has tunneling.
- The « Second Chance » status effect and tunnel penalty won’t occur during the Endgame Collapse.
- If the Killer got any camping penalty, they won’t be rewarded the +6 000 BP (or more) reward for non-tunneling
______________________________________________________________________________________________
I watched closely how good killers play, and I’m sure these mesures will only punish the bad players whom troll the high ranks, getting there only by camping and tunneling. No survivor stays very long in the low ranks, so these bad killers won’t be a big pain in the ass of low ranks survivors, for they’ll rank up soon (and the bad killers will stay low forever unless they change their playing style). ______________________________________________________________________________________________
Thank you for reading ! Take care and have fun in the fog <3
Comments
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The developers have stated they have no intentions on changing camping. Under this, camping is classified.
Additionally, tunneling is simply going for the easier survivor. It's simply the smart move.
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Quick question to you on why you're making this post, and this is not because I think it's incorrect to post this kind of thing:
Does your frustration stem from not being able to do anything while being camped or tunneled to rid yourself of the killer?
If so, would changes made so that survivors can more easily slip away from the killer/lose the killer even when the killer is in hot pursuit be beneficial in removing this problem. Additionally, would making it so that if a killer camps you, you have a small chance to escape the hook at the cost of a permanent debuff to future repair speed and movement speed at all interest you?
I'm just throwing things out there that instead of punishing the killer (as it so often feels good to do) would give survivors more agency and decision into how they go about their demise.
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@Demsael The problem with these kinds of penalties is that players who engage in this type of behavior already don't care about those things. Some players don't care about BP because they have already got everything they want, some players vehemently insist that rank doesn't matter at all, and other players would probably consider it a reward to be ranked down. DBD's reward structure -- emblems, rank, and BP -- is such that players can simply choose to ignore or not value it. This sort of optional valuation means that it is not an effective anti-camping/tunneling enforcement measure.
I don't know what the solution is, but this isn't it.
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If we penalise campign and tunnelling, we should penalise genrushing.
Its unfun, and requires no skill.
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There is a camping penalty in the emblem system.
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Precision : I play stealthy. I'm usually not spotted by the killer until the late game, and even then I'm not hooked easily. 9/10 the first time I'm hooked is when I'm alone in the match (and so I die), which doesn't bother me much. I play alone most of the time too. (And I'm most of the time the one rescuing others)
My concern is just that I don't have fun if the Killer camp or tunnel my teammates. It's boring and killing the game.
Upgrading the chance self-unhooking by a few % and being affected by a debuff in repairing and movement speed overall is a very very nice idea. It's not particulary rewarding, but it could be a counter camping. But they'll have to manage that you automatically get Borrowed Time if you unhook yourself while within the Terror Radius. But very nice idea !
Most of the time, genrushing occurs when the killer chase for 4 minutes straight the same survivor. If you don't put them down after 45 seconds of chase, forget it, and go put pressure on the gens. Killers are to often way too obsessional when it comes to put a survivor down. If they're healthy and you walk next to a soon-to-be-finished gen, go for it and the people repairing it. Everyday I have killers walking right next to me and my gen and not coming to pop it because they're in a chase with a very good survivor. You need to evaluate when someone is wasting your time.
It's not smart, it's dumb. Dead by Daylight is a game for 5 players. Yes, it's a 1 vs 4, but overall we all try to have fun together. The best games I played as the killer (and not farming, like really playing the game) is when I manage to kill everybody, but the survivors thank me at the end because they had fun.
- Yes, I saw that Claudette crouching behind that tree, but she just got rescued and the rescuer is right in front of me, so why not chasing they instead ?
- Also I only play with stealthy killers, so I don't get bother with loops. If the chase is too long, I cut it, go to stealth mode instead, and track my prey in a more efficent way
- So, examples : When someone get unhooked, go for the rescuer. It's simple, nice, and fun. Or if you put down a survivor that you already hooked right before, leave them there, getting a chance to get healed, you'll chase them later.
Overall, if you play this game to evaluate how big your balls are, I assume it's not the right game for you because, again : Dead by Daylight is a game for 5 players trying to have fun.
(And when I say YOU, I don't say YOU, but trolling camping tunneling selfish killers)
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Not changing camping but making it less ... appealing (i dont remember if that was the exact word but something along these lines)
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Sorry for double posting but i just noticed this
I play stealthy. I'm usually not spotted by the killer until the late game, and even then I'm not hooked easily. 9/10 the first time I'm hooked is when I'm alone in the match (and so I die)You see that's one issue. When survivors don't try to use their hook states tactically there's a bigger chance the overall team will lose.
My concern is just that I don't have fun if the Killer camp or tunnel my teammates. It's boring and killing the game.There are a lot of possibilites on "why" the killer chose to tunnel. They couldn't find the rescuer, the rescued survivor just went right into the killer, the rescued survivor was the only survivor they found after searching for others. It's not only killer's fault trust me.
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I see killers switch targets accordingly alot. I see them drop chase to go for an easier survivor alot.
They still get genrushed.
And there is no penalty for survivor to do, besides Hex:NOED, which however only gives the killer one kill maximum versus any half competent team.
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I agree, but even when I run into the killer by purpose to make them chase me, they still prefer to go for the injured freshly unhooked one. I understand it's less trouble, but it's not a solo game…
Also, and I don't know how much of a problem it is, I'm ALWAYS (or 90% of the time) playing against russian killers. I will play the xenophobic card here, but I wonder if it's cultural differences. Maybe in russian culture, you have to crush everybody who's already down in order to get some self-esteem, or to be esteemed by society. It's just a question, I know nothing about Russia.
But most of the « good » killers, whom I have fun to play against, even if I die, are west or central european. I don't know. That sounds really bad thinking, but it's my stats --' (I played with very good russian killers too, but most of them are really toxic, especially in the after-match lobby. Racists and homophobic slur are very common there)
On of the community managers told me they're reviewing the matchmaking and that this issue (for me : playing with russian players, but I'm in Paris…) will be fixed soon.
But there still is an issue with toxic killers. And I can't find a solution to go foward to a more respectfull and kind playground (even if the main objective is slashing the face of powerless survivors :D )
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My average match time is 12-17 minutes I guess. I don't understand how doing 5 gens in 15 minutes is genrush...
Maybe the devs should create more primary objectives, like when a gen is repaired, it still has to be connected to the electric door system ?
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camping and tunneling is a legit strategy for the killer tho, might as well delete killer if your gonna do stuff like this. gens get done too fast
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5 minutes is genrush. I get that quite alot, especially when rank reset was recent and I played alot during those early days.
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No no no no no!
Ranking systems are designed to ensure the most optimal players are matched together to ensure a fair experience. Using it to punish toxicity is an abuse of the system and makes it actively worse at its job.
There are 2 main issues that pop up with trying this:
1. This system would mean that in the hypothetical event that camping ever becomes optimal, it would mean that the most optimal Killers are being pushed towards the LEAST optimal Survivors. Completely breaking the point of the ranking system.
2. The most optimal Survivors also have the most optimal counter strategies, since they are the Survivors that were escaping in low ranks to reach high ranks. So if our goal is to stop campers, we want those campers to be matched with Survivors that know how to counter camping. That means we want campers to be pipped up until they are being matched with sufficiently competent Survivors at which point they are forced to switch strategies if they want to stop losing every game.
Otherwise you are moving the campers towards the players most vulnerable to camping, making them win even more further encouraging them to keep camping. And since low ranks are where new players are that means that it increases the odds of them facing campers in their first few games, discouraging them from playing the game any more.
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Tldr: camping is a cheese strategy and we want campers to be matched against players that won't fall for the cheese.
This would make camping mostly exclusive to mid-high ranks where Survivors will either learn to deal with it and pip up or not and plateau like the Killers there did.
Ranking systems should not be used to punish or reward behavior. That's not what it's for.
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I think we really need to stop policing others playstyles.
Sure there are unfun tactics on both sides. Luckily there are also many individual playstyles as well. This means you face a variety different styles throughout a day, it lets a person choose how they want to play and what is fun for them.
Do I like all these tactics, ofcourse not. Does that mean my opinion should dictate how someone else plays, surely the answer is No.
Stop with the punish camping, tunneling, mori, hook suicides, flashlight save..etc and realize it's just a game.
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Ok queen ! What you say is legit AF, these are very good points. I bow :)
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Don't be ridiculous. We bow to Not_Queen
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To be fair that's a pretty rational way to think, but that's also very naive.
Camping is OBJECTIVELY a boring way to play. As a killer, you limit your interractions with other players to sightings and running back and forth around a hook until people grow pairs to go force a suicidal mission. As the camped person, you just ... sit and watch. Mash your keys if you need to struggle. And as the three/two other survivors, you need to rely on your team to back you up with nothing more than two vague emotes to coordinate your actions. You can try to juke the grab and go for a 1 for 1, multiples times until the game ends, but there is no chase. Just juggling hook stages and doing gens.
Let's be real, there is multiple ways to deal against a camping killer, if everyone knows EXACTLY what to do, it's not too hard to save the person on the hook, but in soloQ you can't rely on your teammates understanding of the situation so you'll most likely leave said person hanging on the hook til death and leave the game with the time it bought you. You'll most likely not pip, no chase interraction, so even if the game says that the killer has "lost" with 1K you didn't find any personnal satisfaction from the game.
Tunneling is annoying, but I guess I find less of a problem from this practice.
Moris are part of the game, even if they are cheap and broken, blame the game not the players. Survivors have keys that are almost as broken. So long that I don't get multiples moris/keys in a row ( I experienced it a week or so ago, I was pretty upset ngl )
In the end, it's only a game as you said, but people can still ruin your experience and that's pretty sad.
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The devs said time and time again that they want camping and tunneling to just be a bad strategy
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