Killer mains help me understand...

I honestly never find any of these to be a problem. If the person who got unhooked is stupid enough to dive in front of me, then they're gonna go off and mend. Let them waste their time. If I've slugged someone, either their friends are gonna go and pick them up OR I've just made you waste your perk. DS doesn't matter to me because I'm either too far away to care, or busy punishing the idiot who unhooked you in my face. Or I've just slugged you because I've accidentally dashed into you with Nurse's, which means you're now free to waste your Unbreakable instead.

Imo they aren't game breaking it's that they're annoying to face almost every match, they synergize too well together, see @Warcrafter4's comment, and when I play Survivor I see too many of my teammates try to force use out of them or make terrible plays because they have them equipped.

"in a perk to perk war, survivors will more likely than not trump killers every time.... in a 4v1 queue the devs would of course rather on paper appeal to survivors first."

That's basically the entire point i've been making.

"-killer perks meant to punish survivors unhooking one another such as MYC or DH... maybe add nurses calling & haunting grounds to compliment one of those perks with a gen rush counter perk as the 4th"

As in they have a requirement and a cost, this is basically agreeing with my point.

"-really great add-ons which make survivors lives a tad bit harder (example: myers infinite tier 3)"

I don't really see this as a counter argument as the majority of killers are quite addon dependent. Most of them use those addons just to function at a decent level, not to really have an advantage per say as you are implying. Also, Myers infinite tier 3 addon is literally a meme. As in it is not a strong addon, it is just a fun addon. If you actually get to tier 3 before all the gens are powered you are either playing against low ranks or the survivors are just screwing around. Not to mention you are talking about ultra rares, should we add keys and insta heals to compare evenly here? You get my point.

"-ebony mori’s... for some reason killers deal with make your life difficult perks all day but refuse to use their stacked ebony mori’s religiously"

Why is this even worth mentioning? We are comparing problematic perks, this literally has nothing to do with mori's. They are ultra rare first of all, IE rarer and more expensive. Secondly, if you're gonna add mori's in, then let's throw in keys and insta heals as well. As I said, why are we even talking about mori's, this is irrelevant to the discussion. I personally think mori's and keys need reworks, but that's another topic.

"but if you’re facing perks like these constantly why not run some perks, add ons, and offerings that’ll bring your blood pressure down?"

I already addressed this in my previous post. Calling ultra-rare addons and mori's a "counter" is just illogical. Which perks are you calling counters? I do not believe there are any unless you have some examples.

Why the blood pressure comment? Saying something like that serves no purpose in the conversation other than as an underhanded ego jab.

The exact problem I have with DS! You play fair and you get hit with DS

People whinge about DS, BT and Unbreakable, but surely Self Care and dead hard are more annoying for killers. Self care is ridiculous and shouldn't exist imo.

"let’s not act like ultra rare add ons come at a rarity. assuming you’re a killer main they come pretty much in each bloodweb once you’re around level 35 and up. insta heals aren’t instant they require time for the heal to actually work, 16 seconds unless the survivor runs different perks than the ones i mentioned to start the post. also they’re once a game unlike mori’s which activate per survivor after one hook. so yes let’s consider mori’s in this discussion because, as the person who started the discussion, i stated ill mention ways around the survivor perks or counters per say."

When I say insta heal I am not being literal. I call them insta heals because that is what people know them as because that is how they were referred to for so long. Just because they have a timer before the heal now does not mean they are not insanely strong still. Yes, they are a one time use, because there are 4 survivors meaning you can have multiple of them in one game.

If you are honestly going to tell me that you consider "bring a mori" as a legitimate counter argument to preventing "second chance perks", then no one that plays killer and survivor at rank 1 with a decent amount of hours is going to agree with you. That is not a counter argument that almost anyone would agree with.

Survivors also get ultra rares in almost every blood web as well, so now anything a survivor would ever have an issue with in the future no matter how busted it is, you could just say, "bring a key". Problem solved. That would be illogical and would never be an argument I'd make.

"i mentioned either Make Your Choice, or Devour Hope which have a distance from hook requirement. if you run either perk you should also pick a killer with good map pressure to actually get away in time"

And here is where the issue lies, the vast majority of killers don't have good map pressure. The few top tier killers are the ones that do.

Are we mentioning MYC and DH as supposed counters to the aforementioned perks? DH is a hex perk and if you do play at rank 1 as you said, you'd know that hex perks are generally broken within the first minute or so of the game. They are not reliable perks. This is why you rarely see DH ran and when it is, it's mainly for the fun, not because of its strength.

MYC is a good perk, but as you mentioned, very few killers can make good use of it. Most of the ones that can make use of it, aren't the killers that need the help. MYC is also asking you to play inefficiently. You let them get a free save, then instead of pressuring gens you have to go back to the hook and hope you just happen to find the rescuer...who is probably hiding because he knows you have the perk and are gonna come back for him. There are just many cons to this perk as well as being a perk that very few killers can actually make use of. Just as with DH, there is a reason you don't see this perk ran often and it's because of the things I just mentioned.

"naturally every killer needs add-ons but there definitely are some make your life difficult add-ons such as legions add-on giving survivors the broken status for a period of time, in addition to the requirement of mending."

Legion is literally one of the worst killers in the game, even with that addon, so I don't see that as a good example to counter argue with.

"if the myers perk is so bad then disregard it & imagine add-ons that are very good lmao.""

You could put Myers best addons on and he's still barely upper mid tier, ie still not that great. At the end of the day he's still an M1 killer with no mobility and that is never going to be strong against good survivors.

I feel like you're trying to make a point that most killers have addons that make them extremely oppressive, of which I would disagree.

There are maybe a couple I think could use some changes and are slightly oppressive like Iri hatchets, but generally speaking the vast majority of them are not oppressive.

I say should be valid because until you bring perks into the picture, they ARE valid.

It's just like how it's valid to loop a pallet several times before dropping it, but if you are playing against a freddy or a doctor suddenly it's no longer valid.

In any case, the issue here isn't that some arbatrary valid option isn't valid because of a perk. That happens all the time and can be fine. The issue here is that ALL of the options are being covered here.

As for solutions. Simply make DS's pre-requisite text be "if you were the last Survivor unhooked then being picked up from the dying state... bla bla bal stun". That way only 1 player can have DS active at a time, and interruption or locker grabs would not trigger the perk. This could even potentially replace the timer mechanic entirely as a counterbalancing buff.

Adrenaline here is only problematic because slugging was the only valid option here. Since this change would give a different solution (hook the unhooker) Adrenaline countering the 3rd option of slugging is no longer an issue.

Basically, countering SOME options is fine at least in theory, countering ALL options is not.

Unbreakable & DS; Vs good survivors who split pressure and pound gens, losing half of 3 separate gens during a 40 second find-chase-hook progression is not viable. That's assuming a 10 second find, a 20 second chase and a 10 second carry to hook. Which I think is quite generous, vs good players. Injuries don't cut it as pressure because skilled loopers with Iron Will and Dead Hard are comfortable playing injured and don't heal.

So how can you possibly get enough pressure?

You slug one, then chase one, and someone has to get the slug. That's 3 people off gens, briefly. The more the survivors apply split pressure, the bigger the map, the more it compensates.

Enter Unbreakable and DS. DS enables the 'stay injured' meta by allowing unhooked players to put extra pressure on the killer for a minute instead of receiving extra pressure from the killer & having to heal. Unbreakable then punishes the killer for trying to counter 'stay injured, pound gens' by slugging. Doubly so if there's DS!

You let the active DS repair vital gens for free? Poor gen cluster, punished. You down and pick up? You spent time to lose pressure, punished. You down and slug? Unbreakable, you spent time to lose pressure, punished.

The only way to deal with any of these perks is to allow the survivor to get huge value out of them, because their activation condition is "killer fulfilled their objective". That's why they're so strong. If you don't tunnel the DS, they'll do gens in your face injured.

If you don't slug the Unbreakables, you give up too much time & too much chase potential hooking everyone every down, and lose.

These perks promote a really unhealthy playstyle where gen time is all survivors need to think about.

There is no killer perk that downs an injured survivor

1But there is a perk that heals a downed survivor to injured instantly.

There's no killer perk that pulls a survivor into your grasp

2But there is a perk that breaks the killers grasp effectively saving them from a hook/death

There's no killer perk that stuns a survivor for doing there objective

3But there is a lengthy stun perk for survivors to use.

You may be thinking wow a killer with a loadout of perks that does that ? No way would they loose running those. Gg ez 4k evry ddayy.

But a single survivor perk does all that ?

Nah its fine.

And you know something ?

It would be... if only the Obsession had it.

Or if it didn't work tons of synergy with almost every other meta perk.

Like imagine if surge pop and ruin all worked together? Picture every gen always regressing and then every down they all explode for 8% and every hook they reset 25% or...

wowza worse imagine if they combined. Like pop was the next gen you damage looses 25 and then you hit a surge and blow 3 gens with a pop power

But DH BT DS Adrenaline yeah those can all work together...

You can dodge a clear hit with DH save on the cooldown and BT a survivor off the hook for clear hit number two ignored then even if you down this guy you can't get him anyway because ds will just let him escape. Adrenaline pops and everyone jumps up or fully heals and runs for the gates...

From killer mains across the board its not these perks that are so powerful its that killer perks are so weak and survivor perks work so well together to be collectively nasty when entire groups use them. A 4 squad means 4 ds stuns (20 seconds of 3 survivors each doing gens is an entire gen) 4 adrenaline is 4 slugs getting up or 4 people fully healed with gates ready to open. 4 DH is at least 4 clear hits avoided if not 4 loops restarted that's enough for gens to pop.

That's my thinking on it

Game breaking no, but survivors love second chance perks though but also seem to despise noed for being a second chance perk. I just find it ironic.

The best way for you to understand is probably by doing the opposite, play without them. Don't use Adrenaline, DH, BT, DS, Unbreakable for any matches for a long period of time.

Then start counting all the times where "If I had (perk), I would have lived/wasted more of the killers time" then think of it like that for 4 survivors and the momentum loss it can cause for the killer or the snowball it can cause in the survivors favor.

Anyway, that's atleast one way I tried to think of to answer OP's question. Not that I'm against the perks, I play both sides but I enjoy killer more.

Ds-This perk can change the course of the match depending on the situation. If there are more than 3 gens left, yeah i’ll eat it so they don’t have later but it allows survivors to do what ever they want in the killer face and they know they’ll be up a running no matter what

Bt-Isn’t really that game breaking, if it’s in the endgame then it can be since from experience that’s the only time people get to actually use the perk

unbreakable-if you have all 4 survivors slugged but one of them gets off the ground with unbreakable, you basically have to win the game AGAIN as had that survivor not had unbreakable things would’ve gone much differently and the match would’ve ended much sooner

Dead hard-It has the potential to extend chases by a very long time if used correctly. Most people think it’s to dodge hits but it meant to be used for covering up lost distance. Making to a pallet/window vault is what it’s meant and when this is done correctly can extend chases by very large amounts of time

Quite honestly the hate stems from SWF. Every problem with survivors comes from them...the toxic groups filled with people who rely heavily on these perks throughout the games they play. That’s why you’d commonly see 3 DS’s in one game, coupled with Unbreakable. And if the builds look similar, they’re likely “that” SWF group.

The only times I would ever have DS and Unbreakable at the same time are when I’m having an extremely bad day with getting slugged off hook just to get picked up about...oh...idk...60 seconds later! Even if I don’t have DS. And teammates could be being a bit selfish and not caring.

And I don’t whip out Borrowed unless it’s been a lot of hard-patrolling going on. Like legitimately not leaving the hook at 4 gens. But I understand why killers hate it when it’s used at end-game because unless the killer has STBFL they’re not gonna have time to punish the rescuer since the person with BT is gonna be body-blocking (if smart).

So these perks are good for solo play, but once they tie in with SWF, they become another monster for many people who have the “play to win” attitude.

They're not gamebreaking on their own, but when multiple survivors run all those perks at the same time it's usually a GG from the start. The counter to DS is "oh just slug the person" but then they have Unbreakable to counter the slugging, which is countered by not slugging, which is when you'll get hit by DS, usually when you didn't even tunnel that survivor in the first place... The power of the combination of these two perks is absolutely stupid. They're fine on their own, and they can be fun ways to shift the pace of a match, but when you use them together it's uncounterable, and you have to worry about 4 survivors having this invincibility for up to 2 minutes each during the match.

It's when you play against some very good but toxic SWF teams that they become a real pain in the ass. And as someone say I can hook another guy and still get DSed so 60 seconds is too long.

That said as solo survivor I use these perks myself and I don't complain when they work to my advantage, but I do understand the killers frustration in some situations. I felt it myself many times playing killer.