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How does a 2k/2out actually feel to you?
Cross-posting from another thread:
The whole "2 kills = balanced" thing is kinda weird. 2 kills is often a sign that the killer actually got outplayed pretty hard.
Yeah, I know that sounds strange, but it's actually not too hard to still sneak in 1-2 endgame kills on a team that's knocking out gens and escaping fast. Or to knock out the weaker links later in the match. (Notice even the dead guys got a ton of points.)
I know, I know. "But the devs said..." Well, there's what the devs say, and then there's how the game actually plays, what it actually rewards, and how it feels to the players. When I play survivor, two people getting out feels like a big win. As a killer, two people getting out feels awful, and survivors are usually quite happy about it.
Not to mention how the emblems add up. I know the emblems are broken as hell, but they absolutely tilt toward a killer getting more than two kills. Whereas escaping isn't actually even that significant for survivors. (Typically silver vs. gold on a single emblem)
It's a weird situation. I really don't think that the "2 kills/2 out = balanced" stuff tells the whole story.
So how do you - as killers and/or survivors ACTUALLY see a 2k/2out?
It know it certainly has the sound of "balance" to it, equal numbers and all that, but how do you really see it?
(No, before you start, this isn't about "entitled to 4k" or any other bullshit you're about to post. You know who you are. I'm just asking opinions.)
Comments
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It feels like a tie. 3-4k I generally perceive as a win, because hatch. When I'm playing survivor, even if I'm the only one to live, it feels like a personal win, but not a team victory. Especially if I had to actually get the gate open as opposed to taking hatch.
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Doesnt feel like a win on either side.
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Well idc as Survivor about the average, i care about me escaping.
My goal as Killer is to hunt everyone down, so 2 escaping is naturally less good than 0 escaping.
But ehh, it feels fine, i'll have forgotten about it by the next trial anyway.
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as a survivor i see it as a win as soon as i escape, no matter how many others made it out.
the only really noticable thing to me is when all 4 make it out tbh.
as a killer, i feel like a 2k is a draw. had i played the trial better i could have gotten more, therefore i didnt achieve the win, but i also didnt lose, as they didnt get the majority of players out.
a win for me as a killer would be a 3k or a 4k.
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Depends on context. If the match was over in 5 minutes, but I got a 2k entity displeased with noed, it feels like a loss.
If it was a 2k brutal where they escaped to a key or a strong team, I feel like it's a tie.
If it was a slaughter and I farmed with the last two, or if they plundered a key due to a 3 gen, I feel like it was a win.
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Part of me feels like I failed unless it's a 4k. It's a holdover from my F13 days. As a survivor I feel like we tied if it's a 2k. And won if we get the 3 man or more escape.
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Entity displeased
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I guess I should clarify my own views on it, as well:
When I play survivor, 2-out feels pretty good, even if I died. Feels like my actions at least led to the overall success of the group. As a team we successfully achieved the objectives - 5 gens and open gates. I'll generally pip and get a fair amount of BP, as well.
When I play killer, 2k feels like I got beaten pretty bad. It probably means I had no early game pressure, poor chases, and barely squeaked out something at the endgame. Or because of overly altruistic survivors. I failed at my objectives - that being preventing gens from finishing, preventing doors from opening, and killing everyone. This outcome also almost never results in a pip, maybe safety.
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Thats exactly how I feel too.
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I think about it more in terms of hook states. 8 hook states = win. 6 or 7 hookstates = Tie. Less than 6 hookstates = Loss.
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Depends. If they got out through the exit gate, then I'm fine. It was a draw which happens fairly often when I play killers like Pig and Legion.
If they escape through the hatch with a key however I become extremely dissapointed, and I feel hard done by.
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It depends on how the match as a whole went. I've gotten a quick 4k without trying but could tell the survivors had been trying, they were just making dumb decisions. Didn't really feel like I won. Most times though I'm happy with atleast 1k, I'm only disappointed if an annoying survivor escapes. If I kill that one annoying survivor I'm happy. 😂
As survivor it depends on my team. If I have a crap team I just care if I escape. If I have a good team where we all work together I'm happy if they escape even if it means I died.
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To be honest it makes me feel disgusted most of the time, like I could have done much better.
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Feels like a tie at best though I've had a lot of frustrating 2ks where it's just something dumb like tbagging that caused the second.
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As a survivor, a tie.
As a killer, a loss.
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Depends on how the match went before it. If I got a ton of hooks and it was a hard-fought battle with both sides playing well, it feels good even if it’s technically a tie. If it was a boring game where the survivors just split up and sat on gens while their teammates went into struggle or whatever, I feel a bit more negative about it but it’s fine. Two kills is ok.
As survivor, if I’m one of the two who escaped I consider it a win. If my death bought enough time for the two escaping, I feel good (unless they were useless, in which case I feel annoyed).
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I try to make it feel like a win, but we all know the last 2 are just going to be toxic af in the end game chat and take that away from you - or teabag at the gate / abuse the hatch. There is just no winning when you play Killer.
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(Notice even the dead guys got a ton of points.)
Im sorry but as a killer i shouldn't let the survivors to have points? i mean whats wrong with dead guys having a ton of points?
For me 2 is good, Tbh I care more about fun / good amount of chases and mind games / how many hooks i got more than 4k'ing, for example if i hooked 8 times and all 4 escaps but i had fun chases and no gen rush is really fine for me, but i know most of killers wont be satisfied by just this and i understand.
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It depends, as Killer if 2 escape but they are on their death hook its a tie, if 2 escape because I got a lucky down at the end and then another lucky down from overaltruistic Survivors its a loss, I got 2 kills handed over and I dont like it, it feels like those "hey you participated, good for you!!" consolation medals.
For Survivor depends on how we played, what we faced and how much I believe everyone deserved what they got, I like to measure what build the Killer used and how fair/unfair it was. For example against Iri+Belt+Ebony Mori 1 escaping is a victory (2 is Merciless Survivors victory), against Tombstone Myers its a win if he doesnt get to Mori the 4 of us, even if we all die (I play Solo and in Solo he always gets EW3, the difference is how many gens are left).
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2k feels like a loss for the killer regardless of what side I'm on. In general I think 3k or 4k feels like the Killer won and anything less is a loss. It's very uncommon I feel like it was a tie at 2k. Often 2k was a 1k and then 1 more during EGC right at the end. Once in a while a 2k feels close and there were a lot of hooks, but often 2k is just survivors winning and Killer getting an extra catch at the end.
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Yeah, maybe it's my focus on objectives that makes me think the way I do.
As a survivor, 2 survivors out probably means that we did the objectives successfully as a team. Gens, gates, and some people out.
As a killer, 2 survivors out probably means I failed the objectives. Didn't stop gens, didn't keep gates closed. Even 1 out - as long as it's not the hatch - can feel like a failure in this sense.
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This. There are way too many variables for a blanket statement like 2 escape = tie. It really depends on a lot of factors.
Escaping with a key for instance is a hollow victory unless it was a really good fight to get to that point.
If the killer is a troll, like hard camping while hitting on the hook, etc and I alone escape then that's a personal victory, but a team loss.
If 2-3 survivors get out but I managed to kill 1-2 really obnoxious survivors then I'm happy enough. I've killed the one troll survivor then sat back to let the other 3 escape when they played like decent people. In those cases I hope the dead survivor is watching 😋
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Also I think if people are saying they consider 1 survivor escape to feel like a loss then that really speaks to how they see balance. If you think 1 survivor escaping is a loss then I'm gonna guess that you also think this game is terribly balanced in favor of survivors.
Just my theory, though. Doesn't mean it's true in all cases.
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Perhaps.
Like I said, maybe I focus too much on the objectives. If one survivor gets out when the gens are done and gates open, that seems like a win for the survivors. They accomplished their goal, they completed their objectives as the game set them out. It doesn't matter how many died to get there, the team did it.
Kinda like destroying your opponents last building in StarCraft. It doesn't matter if you lost a full 200 supply army doing it, you did it. That's the objective. You won.
From the killer perspective, you failed your objectives. Gens got done, gates were open, AND people got out. I failed ALL of my objectives. Doesn't matter if I killed 2 or 3 people, I still failed.
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I'd say how a match feels is pretty removed from the kill count. You can have a really frustrating or unsatisfying 4K or a fun and engaging 0K. Where you draw the line for what counts as a "win" is another story, but winning isn't always the same as having fun.
I'd say that a 2K that happened on both survivors 3rd hook sounds like a fun match, though, the kind where it really could've gone either way.
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I can see why you'd see it that way but I don't see it as a failure. If the one survivor that escaped was a **** the whole game then I'll be a little pissed they got out but overall I still consider it a win for me.
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It totally depends on how the match progresses and when and how the kills occured.
As a killer, if I manage to hook everyone in a trial at least twice and two survivors get out even though they're on their last hook, that feels like I've been cheated out of some kind of victory. If I only manage to hook a survivor near the end of the match and he/she dies because there were no other survivors around and if that survivor was somewhat hard to catch, I don't feel great about that kill.
I've often felt like I've lost the game even if I've gotten 3ks solely because of how the survivors died (eg. to the EGC), but I never feel like I've won or tied the game if two or more survivors escape.
If I camp a survivor to death, then that kill often feels deserved especially if all the other survivors were swarming around the hook.
As a survivor, if I escape alone and the killer didn't make a choice between me and another survivor at the last minute, I consider that a big win. If the killer had downed two of us and I happen to be the one to make it out, I don't feel like that's a win.
If there's a four man escape as a survivor, I don't feel that great about my win mostly because it feels like a wasted match (unless I get an achievement, crown, way too many bloodpoints, etc.).
I do, however, always feel like my kills are deserved if I tombstone someone. Survivors who escape from a tombstone match and haven't taken any hooks I feel deserve their freedom (copious bugs not being included rn).
In short, it should feel more satisfying to kill survivors than just 3 hooks one after the other, and if survivors who have all taken two hooks escape, it often currently feels like I've done nothing and that I should deserve something more for my efforts.
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Really depends on the game. Last minute clutch on a bad map, I'm happy. Game where I messed up then I'll be disappointed.
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if i hooked the other 2 twice aswell because i decided to not tunnel and let them play and we had like 9 or 10 hooks then i think it was an amazing match, still you get punish as killer for not killing at least 3 survivors at red ranks to pip. of course you may get outplayed hard and just because of noed you got in teh end 2 kills maybe?. on first hook? in that case would be stupid to pip but you know.
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0k: Survivor domination
1k: Survivor win
2k: Tie
3k: Killer win (Possible domination screwed by hatch)
4k: Killer domination
The hows and whys of a trial don't really matter, only the end result matters. If the gameplay fails to match these victory outcomes, that's the issue of game design and balance.
The emblem system incidentally is complete garbage at dictating who actually won, it just assigns participation trophies based on arbitrary criteria. I've depipped on a 4k and pipped on a 0k.
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It varies.
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If I'm killing half a squad with matching names, DS, Dab Hards, AND multiple Keys (I'm actually not exaggerating) it's the best thing ever. I'll take that 2k and love it.
If I'm facing a gang of goobers that don't even look behind them; just slam pallets and run forward that just push gens out ASAP it definitely feels like a loss due to gross incompetence on my part.
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Likewise as Survivor; if there's a DC at 5 gens or if the Killer Moris off first hook and I can still get 2 people out I will be beyond pleased.
But if the Killer facecamps and/or gets carried by Survivor mistakes it definitely feels like a loss only getting two people out.
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Depends on how satisfied I feel with the match as well as pips. I've facecamped a few times for science and I've had more satisfying games where nobody died but I 2-hooked everyone and got decent emblem score vs facecamping 3 people to death and depipping.
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Haha, I like that little part at the end of the OP. People just love to twist things about a post, I know the feeling.
To me, I try not to look at it as the number of kills even if that's a decent way to look at it. I try to look at it for how much I was able to do in the game in general.
If I have a really quick game where the survivors all escaped, that feels like I got stomped. If I have a really quick game where no survivors escape, that feels like a solid "win." Also, I like to consider how many hooks I was able to get. If I get a 4k but everybody kills themselves on 1st hook, it's not nearly as satisfying as me getting a 2/3k and having all those that died be hooked all 3 times.
So it really depends for me. A big part of it to me is those hook states. If I hook every single person twice, and they all escape, that usually still feels better to me than the aforementioned example of getting a 4k but having everybody kill themselves on 1st hook.
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2-3 kills with a decent amount of pressure or a challenging 4k are wins to me. 4k because they acted like they had never seen a nurse in their life before is boring and honestly not a 'win' to me.
As survivor I will sacrifice myself over half the time to try and get more people out. I'm not doing my job if I'm not taking heat from the killer to help out.
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I strive for 4k only as a killer. Anything less is not okay.
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2 kill 2 out is literally only a win for survivor. You will depip as killer if you do this consistently in red ranks. Its extremely survivor sided when matches come out this way, because the survivors who died can still pip.
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2k balance means 2k AVERAGE.
Meaning most games are not 2k's because most games will either be 4k's or 0k's, which evens out to 2k over a ton of games.
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You are mixing up average with mode.
Mode is the most common result, not average.
The average street fighter match ends in a draw, but draws are also the least likely outcome in any particular match.
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I think a lot of people understand that, but even at 2k average that's a loss for killer while for a survivor is a win.
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It's a Killer loss and a loss for 2 Survivors.
Survivors are a set of individuals that technically have a separate win condition, not a cohesive team that wins and loses together.
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Yes, but that's why the pip and point system needs to change for killer. At the moment its very heavily favored towards survivors. You know this just as well as I, how hard you have to try and play as killer to even get 1 pip in red.
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My wins are played on points and pips: if i pip its a win, depip and its a loss, no pip is a tie. I pay to maximize the experience and grabbing medals. If I can do that without killing I don't get salty. That is just my playstyle, if I 4k and havent scored enough points I feel like I played badly. I have a old school points mentality I guess.
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Going for that Donkey Kong high score!
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The idea of 2k being a tie for Killer never even made sense to me. Who are you tying WITH exactly? Survivors can't tie after all. They either escape or die trying, it's very binary. As for Killer, you either successfully killed the Survivors or you failed. Calling some amount of kills a tie is meaningless.
You call something a tie when either both sides of the conflict successfully completed their wincondition or if both sides are permanently unable to complete their objective or alternatively if both sides simultaneously achieve their lose condition.
However, since Survivors do not represent a cohesive side there is no one for the Killer to tie with, and thus a draw is logically impossible.
Even if you are defining a win based off pips (which is objectively incorrect but whatever) it's still impossible to draw, since the pip system isn't competative and doesn't have an opposing side to tie with.
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Those games are usually the most fun for me as survivor, it makes the game more tense when people are getting slowly picked off. On killer though, its definitely less fun, feels more like a loss to me.
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And here we have identified the problem. The majority of killers here see a 2k as a loss. Even though killers average about a 65% kill rate (bhvr stats) its not enough for them. Survivors are still op. Its why the forum blows up at the slightest balancing of a killer like Billy now or nurse before. Its why there are 10 threads a day calling to nerf a perk that gives survivors the ability to take one extra hit for 60 seconds of the match if some very specific circumstances are met, yet one hit downs are plentiful in killer base kits and perks. They will concede moris are op but demand that keys be fixed along with them. They threaten to walk away from the game if you try to rein in their fun even a little. Getting 4ks is fun, I have played killer too, but it doesn't make for a fair game. I guess they just want survivors to accept that they going to die in about 2/3 of their matches. Lots of entitled killers on this forum so flame away, but 4/5 of the player base(survivors) know I speak the truth.
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2k feel like tie but i'll take 2k over 0k be happy don't need 3k or 4k every match only 0k pisses me off.
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And there's our "entitled to 4k!!!!" post.
Threads over, we found that guy.
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And there's our entitled killer main response post.
Threads over, we found that guy.
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When I play killer I don't care for kills, doesn't bother me if I get a 0k or 4k. What I do care about is how much BP I earned, and if I managed to two hook every survivor. I don't consider it a lose though if I don't hook everyone twice, as long as I still managed to earn more than 20k points.
As a survivor I want to escape and earn a decent chunk of BP. However, playing as a solo means usually not escaping, so if I get enough BP but die, i'm still usually satisfied. There are some games where I really do want to escape, so getting sacrificed does feel like a lose even if I got a lot of points.
Any game whether it be killer or survivor feels like a loss if I walk away with less than 15k points.
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