No Mither isn't just a perk, it's a David King perk. Fix it with him in mind.
Let me preface really quick by saying there is already a topic on this, but is has been a bit derailed. I was going to just reply to it until I saw how the last 6 or so replies were just arguments about the downsides of No Mither as it stands, which isn't really the point. We're trying to improve it, not complain about how it is. Regardless of those replies I'll link to the original post because the OP ThePeeje did offer up some ideas on how to fix it here. Plus this post is a bit large and expansive to just reply to another topic at this point.
OKAY so with that out of the way let's dive into it. How do we fix David King's (and honestly the game's) worst perk? Well first off it's important to note who's perk it is. David King is like if Jake Park was a badass, drunk, rugby player. Rich from birth, but not the golden child he could've been David was a great rugby player with a very bright future in the sport, but after his aggressive nature got the better of him he attacked a ref and got banned from the sport. Afterwards he worked as a debt collector and fought in bare-knuckle fight clubs all while drinking away his days. In other words, David King is the kind of guy who can get knocked around plenty, but won't go down for good. The kind of guy who seeks a fight and usually wins. That's why David King has the great perks like We're Gonna Live Forever and Dead Hard. He's a team player and he isn't going down that easily, but then there's No Mither. I'm sure you're all well aware of its issues so I won't talk about them, but what I will talk about is how to fix them. 
So let's work on what's already there, then improve upon it.
- You start the trail healthy, but once injured you won't let anyone heal you beyond this state. (Why start injured? It makes no sense to the perk or the lore if I remember correctly.
- The Killer receives no notification whether you have this perk or not, but your team does. (The killer will figure it out, if you're never getting healed and if this perk is actually made to be useful then more people would use it, hence the killers learning to look for it.)
- You don't leave pools of blood. (keeping this the exact same)
- Grunts of pain caused by injuries are reduced by 30/55/80% at any time. (This perk shouldn't compete with Iron Will as the point and use of it is to be the toughest mother ######### out there, not hide away and do objectives. Kind of a difficult part to balance while also staying true to David King. He wouldn't be moaning about all the pain and woe he's going through, but at the same time he wouldn't hide from someone. So I feel like 80% is a relatively close balance so that it can be used to hide in dire circumstances, but still lends itself to not trying to juke and then hide from the killer.)
- -Grants the ability to fully recover from the dying state. Recovery time is reduced by 5/10/15%. (Could be increased to 25% at max, but that seems a bit much if it were paired with tenacity.)
Now the new stuff
- You're no stranger to a fight. While in the Killer's grasp you wiggle out 5/15/25% faster. (this might need to go down to 5/10/15%)
- You feel at home at the center of a scuffle. Gain 50/75/100% bonus to Bloopoints in the Boldness/**Evader **category.
- Your conditioning has made you tough as nails and able to keep going when most have to tap out. You recover from Exhausted and Hindered Status Effects 10/15/20% faster. (This might be a bit much. It could either be a non-stack-able bonus, or have its percentages decreased because as it stands combining this with Vigil would lower the Exhaustion timer on Dead Hard to 25.6 seconds which seems a little low, even for someone who can only take 1 hit).
Okay, so that's a lot and honestly it could be too much, but I think it's a much better alternative to either massive simple buffs (like giving a built in Dead Hard) or making it synergize with injured perks like Resilience and This is Not Happening. David King doesn't work on generators, he's the kind of guy that wants to pick a fight with the killer. Hiding isn't really his thing and toiling away on some broken engine when there's a fight to be had just doesn't make sense for him. David should be the survivor of choice for those wanting to keep their team going and the killer on them. With the new update giving all survivors their perks to begin with I think it makes good sense to really hammer home the personality of these people in their perks.
Comments
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This is honestly a super good idea. I like how it's less of a situational slug perk and more of a secret weapon that can be figured out if the killer is paying close attention.
I think that maybe the Exhaustion reduction should only be activated once you've been injured. It is super useful and arguably worth the vulnerability, but the thing is that being able to Sprint Burst/Lithe every 24/16 seconds (assuming the player would use Vigil, which they obviously would) would make it impossible to injure you in the first place, or even down you. The threat of vulnerability should be be abiding constantly. Even then, once you're injured it'll still be impossible to hit you, so I agree that the percentages should be lowered accordingly.
Also kudos for considering David's lore and perk set when making this. Warms my heart.
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It sounds really good, but over-complicated. No Mither is already one of the most complex/unique survivor perks, and it seems like overkill to include so many different benefits. TBH, just the BP bonus, decreased sound (and hopefully less intense injured music for those who wear earphones..) and maybe a tiny bit of debuff recovery would be enough of an incentive to run it.
But I think it's on the right track. If No Mither was like that, it would probably be on the level of Urban Evasion. Strong, but niche. I would respect someone running it.
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I like the ideas given to improve this perk. Tbh I never use it cause it never appealed to me why I start injured and why the killer is notified. This way he won't let me lay on the ground and hooks me asap
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@ekto said:
This is honestly a super good idea. I like how it's less of a situational slug perk and more of a secret weapon that can be figured out if the killer is paying close attention.I think that maybe the Exhaustion reduction should only be activated once you've been injured. It is super useful and arguably worth the vulnerability, but the thing is that being able to Sprint Burst/Lithe every 24/16 seconds (assuming the player would use Vigil, which they obviously would) would make it impossible to injure you in the first place, or even down you. The threat of vulnerability should be be abiding constantly. Even then, once you're injured it'll still be impossible to hit you, so I agree that the percentages should be lowered accordingly.
Also kudos for considering David's lore and perk set when making this. Warms my heart.
The way percentages work in DbD is that every time a reduction is made, the new stat is essentially set again and the next reduction is applied. (At least, this is what I've been told on numerous occasions and it makes good sense to balance the game.) In much simpler terms: exhaustion at 40 seconds minus the Vigil 20% is 32 seconds, then with the supposed extra 20% added it would only be 20% of 32, resulting in 25.6 seconds and so on with extra Vigils if there was some serious teamwork. That is still kind of crazy hence the possibility that it would need to be reduced, but we wouldn't be seeing 16 second timers unless you were consistently around 2 other teammates who had Vigil as well. That being said I do love the idea that the exhaustion reduction only applies after your first injury. It really hits on the whole adrenaline junkie part of David King's character and I think it would fit well to not only balance, but also to help with his personality going into his perks.
Glad you like it!@Visionmaker said:
It sounds really good, but over-complicated. No Mither is already one of the most complex/unique survivor perks, and it seems like overkill to include so many different benefits. TBH, just the BP bonus, decreased sound (and hopefully less intense injured music for those who wear earphones..) and maybe a tiny bit of debuff recovery would be enough of an incentive to run it.But I think it's on the right track. If No Mither was like that, it would probably be on the level of Urban Evasion. Strong, but niche. I would respect someone running it.
I agree that it's over complicated. There's so much going on with this perk it's kind of crazy, but I say to that is that David King is already considered a Hard character in the game and you have to purchase him with DLC as is and even with the huge new update it will be pretty difficult to get him if I understand the changes correctly. So yes, it would be over complicated, but the people with it should be able to learn it due to their experience. Only issue is the killers not knowing the extent of it, but honestly I feel like they'd figure out the important bits quick enough.
- Pick them up soon after downing them
- Carry them to the nearest hook, no stretching for a basement or swinging at distracting survivors
- Know they're probably trying to get your attention
Incentive to run a perk is not the same as making a good perk though. In my opinion this thing needs to be made a good perk for its niche, just like you said. It would be a bold decision to run it, but it could be an awesome perk if used correctly, where as I feel like a small blanket buff just wouldn't provide the same fun and game variability as these supposed changes would. No Mither, along with every perk in my opinion, should have a good amount of usability and never be considered a low tier perk. Everything should be a B/A level perk instead of having a select few A+/S tier perks and then a massive amount of C and D tier perks. Obviously that's never going to happen, there's always good and bad balance issues in every game, but that ideal is what devs should strive for. Without a ton of good perks the meta becomes stale and you run into essentially the same survivors every game and to make the game enjoyable for long periods of time adding good choices in perks, for both killers and survivors, is essential.
@Queen_Shepis said:
I like the ideas given to improve this perk. Tbh I never use it cause it never appealed to me why I start injured and why the killer is notified. This way he won't let me lay on the ground and hooks me asapYeah as is No Mither is essentially just a siren saying that you're an easy target to go ahead and let the killer get into a 3v1 situation. Thanks for the feedback.
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no mither doesn't need a fix. Just make it more like distressing but over all. Each blood point gain increases by50/75/100%Post edited by FoxWolfFrostFire on0
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The problem with increasing BP is that most people really don't want a survivor with no mither on their team. Most of the time they just die quickly and leave you at a huge disadvantage. If we want this perk to be prevalent we have to let it be potentially as powerful as any other perk in spite of the downside. Otherwise it'll be impossible to balance.
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I just think tenacity should've been built in to No Mither.
Looking at David's perks... he's meant for bodyblocking really. Meant to confront the killer to save others. I mean, a killer can't pick you up if he has someone in his grasp already. He's meant to get down and be able to pick himself back up. That's why I think tenacity should've been built in, because then it offers more of an escape for rewarding confrontational gameplay. Other than that, his perk is fine how it is. Just use tenacity+no mither+ resilience + dead hard.Or switch Res. for Decisive. Perfect build for NM. It's supposed to be hard to use.
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I have spent with David most of my survivor time and I am using No Mither every match(with 1 or 2 injured perks).What the problem with David is, is in my opinion his perks unlike other survivors have nothing to di with each other. We re gonna live forever does not help you escape at all and Dead hard makes no difference if used alone or with the other perks. All in all, No Mither keeps David behind and there needs to be a real reason for him using it along with his other perks...0
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Perhaps all of the buffs would be a bit too much for a single perk, but I do think that you are definitely on the right track. Starting uninjured and not having the Killer be able to see that you are running NM should be a must, that change by itself would probably be enough to get some players to use it again, at least I would. As you said, this is a high risk perk, so the extra BP would be a nice reward for such a risky playstyle. On a final note, being able to wiggle out faster would be pretty cool and make sense lore-wise, however there's still a chance that the devs will implement this into Boil Over since a lot of people are complaining on its functionality.
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I still think you should start injured for synergies, while AT LEAST removing the symbol, so mid game the killer could forget.
I especially like the buff to grunts, which if you didn’t know, EFFECT DYING TOO. Maybe exhaustion and wiggling is too much, but I definitely think a built in unbreakable AND tenacity but a bit weaker should be built in. The reduce grunts isn’t weaker iron will, as it effects dying too, and is this different. Anyway, good suggestions, I just like starting injured, feels like such a unique thing I wouldn’t want taken away.
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Correct me if i'm wrong but...when did no Mither need a buff exactly?
Is'nt it deisgned for specific builds?0
