REMOVE THOSE DAMN KEYS FROM CHEST!!!
KILLERS CAN'T FIND MORIS, SO WHY THE HELL CAN SURVIVORS FIND THOSE DAMN KEYS?
REMOVE THIS ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!
Comments
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Asymmetrical
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OP, no, no, no.
Keys have already received a counter with Franklin's.
Moris have not been touched!
Moris skip many steps in the game (2 hooks per survivor). Keys only skip exit gate. It's already balanced in your favor, so move along now . . .
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You're living a dreamworld when you think this game is in favor of killers.
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it's an item, thats why
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Yes, I am gonna run franklin’s every match JUST in case a survivor gets a key from a chest
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Kill rate as of November 2019 was ~70% at red ranks. Those are the newest numbers I've seen. This game is currently killer-sided.
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Just be thankful it's not resident evil resistance. Not only can survivors buy healing items and weapons through out the entire match on top of finding them, but they can also respawn if you kill them.
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Most of the time when you open a chest you're just wasting time and hurting your team. If you want to open tons of chests for a tiny chance at a key, or waste a perk slot on Plunderer's to try to boost your luck, you're doing the killer a favor. If you find a key and are able to survive long enough to use it, congrats, you deserve it. You paid it forward by hurting your team as you search chests to look for it.
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When i was doing the chest challenges for the rift, i used aces perks and got 2 purple and one ebony key in the same match.
I have also had survivors stop playing and search for hatch when i am winning because they found a key..
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I think it's fair since you also have a chance of finding a useless broken key.
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Chests offer medkits meaning you don't have to run self care. You can find anti hag lights too. I get pink keys and pink maps frequently using plunderers. Ive even found keys during the EGC 🕺
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Killer's can't open chests and get a free win.
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I disagree. It's been killer-favored for over a year. I'm not the only one who feels this way. Every patch is changes that benefit killer and only nerfs for survivors for the past year+. But deny it all you want, I don't care.
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That's not the point of the Franklin's reference. The point is that SOMETHING, really anything changed with regard to keys and we've had ZERO changes to moris for years.
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It's not a guaranteed win bud. And honestly, as powerful as moris are, it's a free kill if not a free win as it is.
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But.. the survivors don't even need to put up an offering like the killer does to get a mori..
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So what? An offering is extra work? That doesn't negate the fact that it skips far more steps than a hatch. And dramatically reduces the opportunities for all survivors to achieve objectives, challenges, etc. A hatch only takes away the gate. Heck it doesn't even spawn until very late. Moris are good to go after first hook. You just can't ask for changes to keys without changes to moris at the same time or before. Period.
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I'd submit that keys would be equal to moris, with the following changes:
1. keys do not spawn from chests. ever.
2. the purple key is changed so that it only opens the hatch for ONE survivor. no one else. the red one opens it for all.
3. remove the add ons allowing you to keep the key on death, or keep it after it is used to escape.
4. the hatch now ONLY spawns if all gens are done, OR if there's only one survivor left.
5. add a new offering that allows the hatch to spawn through the old method.
6. Nerf the DS/unbreakable combo in such a way that moris are no longer the only counter to them. (Note: NO, letting the survivor go does not qualify as a counter, no more than "don't do gens" is a counter to surveillance or overcharge.)
7. IF all that is done, THEN change moris so you can only kill on death hook.
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I am seeing your comments and it seems that you have never played as a killer, so I am opposed to arguing with you 😄
No matter how many times they explain to you, you will always defend your opinions equally if someone tells you a valid argument.
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I'm actually ok with keys in chests.
I like some of the less favored things in the game simply because they shake things up and keep things dynamic.
People want every killer to be loopable, to 4k every game, remove stuff like NOED, etc.
That's the stuff that'll put me right there in dreamland with Freddy.
Post edited by Raccoon on0 -
Killers seeing keys as a 'free win' is the biggest misconception. A survivor escaped.. they did not win. They did not exit with the majority of their team which I consider a win (3+). A solo or duo escape is just that.... surviving, but it is not a win in my book, nor is it free.
Killers never mention that they can sacrifice a key carrier and if the team does not know about said key, they probably won't be looking to pick it up. They also fail to address that the survivor has to spend time searching for a hatch instead of doing gens, further hurting the possibility of a win (3+ escapes), which often actually helps the killer get more kills than they might have due to increased hunting time because of less people/time on Gens.
And maybe this is not the case, but I see killers complaining about keys because they didn't get 4k. When I wreck survivors and one or 2 get hatch, I think, 'dam, they are lucky they brought/found a key and found that hatch before I got them!', not 'OMG, keys are BS!! i wanted rank, pip, 4k bp that I deserve and stoopid key just ruined that for me!'
If you are complaining about 3-4 survivors escaping with 1 key, you were already losing, imo, since they knocked out 4-5 gens. I've never seen a 4 man hatch escape.. pretty much has to be swf to coordinate that.
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And since then they have nerfed 2 killers and nerfed a perk that was used in 80% of games to slow the game down just a little bit.
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Actually this year we got a small change for mori’s that prevents it from being spammed to prevent holding the game hostage.
Yes Mori’s are an issue but devs have this and keys on the list of getting changed
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Irrelevant! So you're saying you can't use another offering if you want to use a mori? So what! You are skipping 2 hooks times 4 if it's an ebony. That's a lot of speed. A survivor can bring in a key just like an offering. It doesn't matter that it comes from an offering and not a chest. There are other ways to get the equivalents of moris too with Devour Hope, Rancor, and certain addons.
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It's obvious to me you haven't played enough survivor. And my points are plain as day to see. One thing (a key) does not advance the match for the survivors nearly as much as moris do. Moris skip entire chases, etc. Hatch only skips gate, if you can find it in time.
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That fix was an exploit (or bug if you want) so that doesn't really count.
My point is that moris are more of a problem and that keys cannot be further touched until moris are.
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I mean, isn’t everything on this game like that?
Hate spirit? Bring iron will, even tho there’s 19 other killers on this game
Hate doc? Calm spirit
Hag? Urban evasion
The same for both sides, it’s kinda of a bet, but whenever someone complains about something specific this r the answers given. I think finding keys in chests is okay, the problem is the key herself and the game changing it applies, but keys are already being reworked so... yh, after the rework maybe keys in chests won’t affect u guys that much
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Most of the changes since then have been nerfs to survivor. Toolboxes were nerfed, coop gen speed penalties were increased, and survivor add-ons are now lost at the ends of trials. A number of maps were shrunk and had their strongest loops removed. They reworked and substantially buffed Doctor and Bubba. They buffed Clown in a non-transformative way. Oni (very strong), Deathslinger (average), and Pyramid Head (strong) were all released. Dead Dawg and the new Yamaoka map are both very killer-sided. I'm not sure about Midwich.
On the other hand, they reworked and nerfed Hillbilly, reworked and nerfed Ruin, and reworked and buffed sabo. I think those are all of the major changes.
I'm not saying these changes were bad. On the contrary, I actually like all of them. On the whole, though, they're generally killer-sided. Ruin is no longer meta, but survivors were nerfed to compensate. I doubt these move the needle much on survival rate.
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You clearly have no idea how keys work if you think it "only skips gate." The only time it only skips the gate is if all 4 survivors are still alive. If even one survivor is down, it also skips the last generator, more with each dead survivor.
So, the killer will be patrolling gens with 3 people alive, knowing it's going to be a close game... and then bam, everyone escapes with no warning whatsoever. The game just ends.
Fun!
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Something I haven't seen mentioned is Keys are a counter to survivors 3 genning themselves. I've had multiple upon multiple games where they 3 gemmed themselves realized their ######### search for a key find one and then find the hatch with 1 gen left and I've gotten one kill. I've had rounds where I've had to close the hatch 3 times because two people find a key and the hatch then opened for the last survivor. I have no issues with keys skipping exit gates.
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Which was prior to Ruin nerfs.
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I do know how keys work, but the hatch doesn't even spawn unless a certain number of gens are completed and based on the survivors remaining. Moris are actionable after the first hook and encourage tunneling. They are vastly different. The only reason any one would feel that keys are more egregious is if they are killer main and can't get perspective on it. Can't help with that. Soz.
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- The toolbox changes did very little if you do the math. The brown toolbox went from 80 charges at 15% speed to 16 charges at 50% increased speed. Effectively: Old toolbox = 68 second gen for one survivor, new toolbox = 72 second gen for one survivor. They nerfed it by 4 seconds, and personally i'd argue its a buff because you can get your 8 second bonus faster now than you could before.
- Sabotage changes were a clear buff
- The balance problems have never been about multiple survivors on 1 gen. Generally as a killer you prefer that because then you can chase/harass multiple survivors at once. The problem has ALWAYS been when survivors split up, resulting in you losing 2-3 gens in the first chase.
- Doctor is still mid tier.
- I'll give you bubba, but he was the 2nd worst killer in the game.
- Clown is still the worst killer in the game.
- Oni is extremely weak in the early game, if survivors just throw pallets early you'll lose 3 gens before you land a hit. I'll give you that once he lands that first hit he is strong, but it is a tradeoff.
- Deathslinger is average as stated by you
- Pyramid head was also nerfed multiple times since then
- Dead dawg middle building is killer sided? TBH i'd say the map is fairly balanced, but a lot of it requires the killer to spend time breaking walls to remove the infinites.
- Midwich is extremely survivor sided, they can literally just hold w down the hallways and it takes a killer a good minute to catch up to them. Don't get me started on SWF with OOO on that map either.
The point i'm making, is that keys and moris both are a problem and need to be reworked.
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Ok, clearly someone is extrapolating individual instances to create their own general belief of what is actually happening. Let's look at the actual math, shall we:
No Plunderer's Instinct (assuming item selection precedes rarity)
- Your chance of finding a key is 7%, i.e. 7 keys per 100 , or better yet. 1 key per 14.3 chests
- Only 3 chests spawn in each trial (one of them being a basement chest)
- Hence 1 key will be found every 4.8 trials, if all 3 chests get searched.
- You need at least a purple key to open the hatch
- If the breakdown of possible rarities is 16%, 5%, and 2% across all possibilities, yet keys can only be green, purple or red then if the same odds propagate they become:
- ~69% Green
- ~22% Purple
- ~9% Red
Conclusion: you have about 2.2% chance of finding a purple or red key in every chest you search, or if you search all 3 chests in every trials then it will happen in 1 out of every 16 trials.
No Plunderer's Instinct (rarity before item)
- You need either Purple or Red, but the number of available items at each level varies
- You have 5% of getting purple, and purple item range consists of : 1 flashlight, 2 toolboxes, 1 medkit, 1 key
- Best case scenario: you have a 1 out of 5 chance of getting a purple key i.e 20%
- Worst case scenario: the above item chances also propagate after the rarity is selected, with both medkits and toolboxes given significant priority that far exceeds the propability for a key
Nevertheless, even assuming 1/5 chance as far as items, you get 5% for purple and then 20% afterwards for a total of 1% for a purple key.
- You also have a 2% chance of getting a red item, and only red items are 1 key and 1 map
- Here your worst case scenario would be 50% red key, but its possible keys get some priority over maps
So the total chance given ultra-rare rarity is at the very least 1% red key
For a total of at about 2% to get a purple of red key if rarity plays a role before item. Again approximately 1 out of every 16 trials.
Plunderer's Instinct
- Item before rarity gives approximately 9.5% chance of finding a purple or red key in every chest searched, or about 26% per trial if all 3 chests are searched by the survivor with Instinct. I.e. 1 in every 4 trials with PI
- Rarity before item: if there is no item preference and each has the same probability once the algorithm selects rarity, then the total for purple and red key could be as high as about 13% per chest or approximately ~34% for 3 chests searched I.e. 1 in every 3 trials (9 chests searched ) with PI
Conclusion being, unless there is a problem with my math above, no one cares about your anecdotal experience. Suggesting that 1 out of 16 trials (if all 3 chests searched by you) might yield you a purple or red key is something comparable to Mori is ridiculous. Even looking at the odds with Plunderer's Instinct makes the situation trivial, because if its a case of a survivor equipping a perk then killers can proceed accordingly and equip an item-limiting perk of their own.
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Black
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You can break down the math any way you like, you can do the same for maps, like talking about how many maps there are to get my percentages for going to any given map. But I'll still go to Lery's 15 times in a row if I pick Trapper.
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As nice as that math is it's also kinda irrelevant until it gets so unlikely that it basically can't happen (1/16 isn't rare enough for that).
This is because swingy scenario's happen on the scope of a single trial, not the average of several trials.
That is to say, if 6% of games have a chest key play then 6% of games are problematic. Low odds doesn't change the magnitude of an issue, just the likely hood of the issue being relevant in the first place. If and when a key IS found it becomes a problem one way or another. And if a key is NOT found then we aren't touching that scenario anyways so it's not relevant.
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Yeah it's complete BS that they can. Survivors can get a game-changing item out of the blue and the Killer can't prepare for it at all. It wasn't like this before the last Christmas event. Everyone had a higher chance to get rarer items or add-ons in chests and the Bloodweb. After the event ended, BHVR decided to let Survivors keep the improved chests, but ######### over Killers because "lol Killers".
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My suggestion:
Using the key on the hatch starts a timer of like 45s-1m. After that timer it is opened and 2 survivors can escape. The killer can go to the hatch and disable the key. On the last like 15s the killer can see the hatch's aura.
On the skeleton key make it like 30s but the killer can see the aura of it on the last like 10s.
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Moris skip 1 hook per survivor (1/3 objective), since you still have to go through 2 chases, meanwhile can still give 2 survivors an escape at 2 gens, meaning that they've skipped 2 gens AND exit (2/5 or 2/6 depending on who you ask). The last few gens are also the hardest ones, which are the ones that almost always get skipped by keys. Moris are definitely stronger, but at least survivors can know whenever there's a mori in play, killers may not know since keys are pull-able from chests.
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Still. With all of that, that means only some survivors got to skip gens. Not all survivors. All killers get to skip 2 hooks per person. I'm sorry but even with your math, moris are worse. (But both keys and moris need to be reviewed. My point is that no more changes to keys until moris are also touched.)
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You need this:
this forum doesn't support tables, sooooo...you get pictures.
Post edited by Kind_Lemon on0 -
I don't want to have to run Franklin's every match. I want to run better perks. Honestly i think keys should be reworked to open exit gates and chests faster or something. I know that sounds extreme, but note that i didn't touch the add ons. I've lost so many games to the hatch as is, and i don't even want to talk about how often i lose to keys.
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yeah the ruin nerf was totally killer sided right?
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You can't take that in a nutshell, though. A number of maps were shrunk and had their strongest loops removed. Autohaven maps in particular now regularly spawn gens in dead zones. Toolboxes were nerfed, coop gen speeds were nerfed, and survivor add-ons are now consumed at the end of the trial. Doctor & Bubba were reworked and buffed. Clown got a small buff. Pyramid Head and Oni were both introduced and are very strong (Deathslinger was also introduced, but he's pretty average). Dead Dawg and Sanctum of Wrath are both killer-sided maps. A number of killer perks were buffed (e.g. Franklin's, Lightborn, Tinkerer, and Knock Out when Billy & Bubba were reworked, Hangman's Trick when sabo was changed).
On the other hand, Spirit got a small nerf and Billy essentially got an add-on nerf. Sabo was buffed. Ruin was reworked and nerfed. Some survivor perks were buffed (e.g. Saboteur when sabo was changed, Prove Thyself when coop gen speeds were nerfed). Midwich is a survivor-sided map.
I think that's everything worth mentioning. On the whole, I would expect these changes to benefit killer more than survivor, but at the very least I don't think they'd be enough to substantially lower the kill rate.
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Survival can run calm spirit for the case of being an doctor its the same thing as franklins
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Oh no! A survivor found a key from a chest and then found hatch, denying me my precious 4K! What ever shall I do! /s
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Actually it was. Ruin is almost as good as it was. Not to mention the additional slowdown perks that have been added since then. You can't point to one pseudo-nerf to killers and say the game is not killer-sided. It's killer-sided and has been for the last year. Accept it.
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ruin is good now aswell, BUT only for the killers it wasnt necessary on, like oni, hilbilly, spirit, while the weaker killers got shafted even harder
and no its not killer sided, survivors have been constantly getting second chance perks, gen speeds are broken and so on.
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