Why do killers say using good perks is toxic?

It is against nurse 😉

I guess that games need to be a bit longer, for that to happen. If that is to happen, there will still be cheap players, playing exactly like they do now, on both sides. Though I hope things can change. But yes, killers generally cry about stuff their "playstyle causes". The toxicity that was brought into this game with crossplay made me use DS for the first time since year 1. I always refused to use stuff like DS and NoeD. But, as I said, killers are making it a necessary evil. Not to mention the spamfest that being against a Billy/Clown/Freddy/PH/Doc actually means.

@Endersan @Technician19XX Anyway, I'm going to stray off-topic here, but I'd like to discuss balancement issues with the guys in here. I would normally open a new discussion, but I've been there, done that, and people in this forum tend to only criticize things that would be unfavorable for their "faction", without even giving proper examples or explaining why it would be a bad thing. And that is because, normally, there is nothing taken into account, other than their own satisfaction. Take your time though, because it's going to be a long ride. I'll split the points into survivors and killers, to give a better reading experience. Would like to hear some thoughts, especially from the two guys I mentioned, since they are among the few I met on these forums who have proven to actually use some rational thought and constructive criticism.

-|SURVIVORS|-

• Decisive Strike and Dead Hard should go, or they should be reworked so that DS is deactivated if you start working on gens or get fully healed (maybe one OR the other), and DH does not go off cooldown instantly while hooked, maybe even adding other 20 secs of Exhaustion. If it stays, it should also become somewhat more consistent, because I keep being hit mid animation since crossplay came out, while still becoming Exhausted. 

• Hits through windows and on the other side of pallets should not happen, if the survivor is already running, which means he completed the animation and was out of the killer's reach. I even had players hit me on the other end of the pallet, which was already used, all while they got stunned and teleported on the side I was, but even further than where I was standing.

• Flashlights, keys and toolboxes should be limited to one per match. This means that, of the 4 survivors in the match, only one can bring a key, only one can bring a toolbox and only one can bring a flashlight. Items in chests would still remain as normal, same for medkits. 

• Survivors should be shown how many totems are still up on the map, possibly by placing a candle shrine in the basement, as someone already suggested. This could also lead to killers taking them by surprise and hooking them in the basement.

• Gen rushing should be reduced by implementing something like parts to find, perhaps only for the last 2 gens. Somebody already proposed that, though he suggested to do that for all gens.

• If the killer is anywhere near a certain radius of the hooked survivor, unless there are other survivors really close, the hooked survivor should not lose any health until the killer goes away. That radius means that he should not be so close as to be instantly ready to hit another survivor who comes in to unhook. The radius would be distance based, not terror radius based. Boom, got rid of camping (not a "strategy", since a strategy involves reasoning and planning). Of course, this would not apply to EGC.

• This isn't really survivor only or killer only, but some maps, like Yamaoka Estate, have horrible and very few pallets. Those maps should receive some more of them, while still acting like what I described in the first killer point.

• Exit gates should be farther from each other, so that survivors have at least a slight chance at escaping, if the hatch is closed and they are left on their own. Not really sure if that is something possible, but I'd like a system that keeps track of points earned. If you are the last survivor and did not, at least, complete a gen and a safe unhook, the hatch will not spawn for you. And I said spawn, so keys would not help. If it already spawned and you didn't do both of those things, it disappears. If you are quick enough to go for it with a key before the other survivor dies, though, you get to escape. Can't prevent everything, can we? Oh, and keys in the hands of a survivor who dies on the hook would vanish from the trial.

-|KILLERS|-

• So, first things first, I feel like there should be no Bloodlust for killers. The presence of BL alone favors endless chases, which is what I also call tunneling (coupled with ending a chase to start another with an injured guy who was just unhooked). As we all know, infinite loops have been finally removed from the game, a while ago, which was mainly the reason for BL to exist. The removal of BL should also lead to less pallets, while still having no more than a single pallet in almost every area of the map, so there are no dead zones. But no areas with double pallets. This would mean, for instance, that there should be no areas like The Game's basement (but there, you have the basement, so those pallets should stay, to prevent tunneling at least a little). Maybe even show auras of pallets to other survivors the moment they get dropped, to give them some info SWF already has (I would also be into removing SWF altogether or limiting the party size to 2 people).

• NoeD should get no move speed bonus and, as somebody else suggested, only activate on the condition that no more than 3 survivors have been hooked (if the survivor was the same one all 3 of those times, the same applies).

• On the killer side, you can only use Ebony Mori if the survivor is on the LAST hook, if he has been hooked twice before that. If he got to second phase on his first hook, you will have to hook him. If he gets downed after the first hook, you cannot mori him. The same would apply to Pyramid Head's Final Judgement. Also, PH should not be able to have Moris, since he has one built into his kit. Moris different from the Ebony would retain their features.

• Spirit would have to be reworked in a way that does not make her "unfair" for survivors. She can be countered, not going to deny that, though it is mainly based on luck, guesswork and meta perks like Iron Will. Every killer should have a way to counter their power even without perks. I'm ok with her retaining her map pressure though. Maybe give her a much longer cooldown, if she is to remain like she is now.

• Instadowns need to go, or be reworked in some way, depending on the killer, so that they cannot be abused (unless they come from perks, like Haunted Grounds or Devour Hope). Huntress would lose Iridescent Head. Billy would have to wait 1:30 (duration is debatable) minutes between a succesful Chainsaw slash and another, while still retaining the newly introduced overheat mechanic. Same for Leatherface, who should have 2 charges instead of 3 and a cooldown of 40 seconds (also on successful chainsaw hit), to make up for the fact that he does not have as much map pressure as Billy. Myers should have the EW III effect active for 40 secs instead of a full minute, and the Iridescent add-on Fragrant Tuft of Hair should make it last longer, not forever (like 1 min and 20 secs). Ghostface can remain as is, maybe get some form of increased lunge. Oni is also ok as he is. While is not an instadown, Freddy should see his power charges reduced to 6/8 for Dream Snares and 4 for Dream Pallets, so he should be some more strategic and not spam pallets everywhere.
• In general

If we are to keep crossplay between all platforms other than mobile, console should be brought on par with PC, as far as frames go. Especially considering the fact that the upcoming graphical update could make the situation even worse. Guess that's all, for the moment. Hope nobody sees me as being too killer-sided or survivor-sided, since I had enough points for both roles. Though I reckon that is going to be a huge gamble, knowing this community.

I am being rational when I say this, the Killers job is to kill Survivors. When you queue up solo you do so taking a risk that you will be paired with Potatoes. It isn’t the Killers fault that you’re the only one that may do totems and your teammates refuse to. NoEd isn’t over powered because it gives the Killer and extra boost in power, it’s strong because Survivors get tunnel vision and ignore the secondary objective.

No player is entitled to have their opponent play as they want to. As long as the rules of the game aren’t being broken, there is nothing wrong with being chased the whole match. Isn’t that what most Survivors on the forums want? How many times have I seen it posted by people that the chase is the most fun part of the game? Let’s say you got chased for three gens, wouldn’t you say that you had fun and we’re able to contribute to the team? Why should the Killer be lenient with you while you’re on hook? It’s their right to face camp you since they put up with chasing you for that long. It’s just a consequence of playing Survivor.

The only way to make Killers give up the strategies Survivors don’t like is to remove some of the stress from their shoulders. As things stand now, gens go way too fast. Saying just pressure them doesn’t work. There is no way a Killer will be able to hook 4 people 3 times each before the 5th gen pops when they face a competent group of Survivors unless they play one of the top 3/4 Killers unless they use tactics you don’t like.

It’s funny how you blame Killers for making the game not fun but not mention how unfun Survivors make the match for Killers. Do you really think Killers have fun when they repeatedly get locked stunned? Or how about pallet stunned and blinded? Or how about getting blinded with a Survivor on their shoulder, losing the Survivor and all the time they spent to down them? Do you think Killers love it when after they chase someone and are walking to the hook, that the hook disappears because someone has a tool box? Do you think it’s fun for Killers to get body blocked over and over?

You probably think that’s all fine and dandy because it’s just Survivors completing their objectives. Well the same applies for Killers. You are not entitled to search chests, heal, work on gens or help your team. Their goal is to make the match as difficult as possible, hopefully leading to your teams death. The only thing you’re entitled to is a “chance” at Survival.

Don’t ask Killers to go out of their way to make the game enjoyable for you unless you’re willing to ask Survivors to do the same for Killers. So the next time you think to save someone by using a flashlight, consider how the Killer might get upset and make the game easier for them by not blinding them. Oh, you won’t, because you want your points, well then, don’t expect the Killer to do the same for you.

And if the game dies, so be it. It’s up to the Devs to provide an enjoyable experience for their community, not the players.

I'm a Killer and I don't say that. I think the word toxic is worthless and has no meaning. I don't care what you use. Killers are going to do their best to kill as many survivors as possible, and Survivors are trying to survive by any means necessary. As long as no one is hacking, more power to you. While there are some whining/winging Killers, they are (in general) vastly outnumbered by the endless complaints of Survivors. I don't like hearing it from either side.

The endless complaining creates a thick blankets of fog which obscures real issues, and makes it impossible to talk about anything. The word "toxic" for example seems to be whatever a particular whiner wants to complain about on a given day. I've been accused of camping merely for being on the same side of the map as a hook. Was I camping? No, of course not.

That isn't to say I won't. I will camp, tunnel, or Mori to win the game. Sometimes those strategies work, sometimes not. Every game is unique. I'm still relatively new and learning. I try not to spend a lot of time worrying about which Perk is too strong or too weak. The DEV get paid for that; I don't. I'm just here to play the game. I am concerned with "out of game" things like the 5th Perk (Comms) for SWF. I think that makes things very difficult to balance properly, and will get addressed eventually one way or another.

But again, I'm not here to tell other people how to design the game; I go to play it.

Camping and Tunneling IS toxic tho. Perks arent unless used in a toxic way.

Your comment REEKED of victim complex. Also I love how you ignore how I said "Perks aren't toxic unless used in a toxic manner." And btw saving DS for EGC isn't toxic because you already lost at that point, you had the whole game to get a kill and you didn't thats 100% on you and saying they saved it means they were already tunneled once so now its just pure punishment at this point lol. There's nothing a survivor can do that will make the killer literally stuck in place for 2 minutes then lose and depip no playstyle or perks will do that.