How Can Some People Call This Game Killer Sided?
I would genuinely like to know considering many of the factors point towards the game being survivor sided.
1. Perks:
Many good survivor perks can be obtained for free. Adrenaline, Iron Will, and Bond are all free teachables.
Killers on the other hand have the good perks locked behind dlc. Barbecue & Chili, Surveillance, and in the case of PC, Ruin and Monitor.
Survivor is already easy enough that you don't need perks, but then you give them the absolute best perks for free. Killers such as Wraith and Legion will get dominated without perks, but the best perks to run on them are locked behind dlc.
2. Items and offerings:
Survivor: Keys; Styptics (which got buffed); Syringes (which are worse, but still incredibly powerful); BNP; Commodious toolbox; Emergency Med-Kit.
Killer: Ebony and Ivory Mori; Iridescent Brick; Iri Head. That's all.
3. Maps and tile spawns:
Ormond. Coldwind. Autohaven. These three realms tend to be extremely survivor sided. Ormond especially just has pallet after pallet after pallet. The only deadzone that can even exist here is one of the corners with a gen near the small building with stairs.
Now, the killer sided maps are Hawkins, Lery's, and The Game, but even these are only good for stealth killers, Trapper, and Hag. A killer like Nurse is going to have an extremely difficult time on these maps.
Tile spawns would be Cow Tree into Jungle Gym into shack (Coldwind). Safe pallet into safe pallet into main building with two safe pallets into Looping Gym into Safe Pallet into shack (Ormond).
4. Glitches:
You can call me scummy for including glitches, but with how many sound bugs that exist in the game and several safe spots that can be reached, killer is at an unintentional disadvantage. No moaning, no breathing, no footsteps, and no dying noises are some of them. Iron Will, one of the best perks in the game, is bugged to not make you breath at all.
Falling onto the exit gate switch on Midwich so the killer can't get you unless he/she is playing Deathslinger.
There are just far too many issues with the game. They haven't even been fixed even though they've been in the game for months.
I would like to say that I find it quite dumb that the devs can fix pointing and crouching (which should a permanent feature) in a week, but they can't fix the detrimental sound bugs after several months.
Whether it be from perks, consumables, unfair maps, or glitches, this game is far from killer sided.
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I will probably make a follow up to this on the history of things being nerfed.
Comments
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One word
SWF
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I wish I could give you a gold star.
⭐
There we go.
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The game is definitely balanced in favor of survivors.
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When it comes to maps, I would say most of the autohaven maps are fine, otherwise I agree, also when it comes to perks I'd also suggest just looking at the strength of the best perks for both sides, sure some you have to wait to be in shrine or pay for, but the highest potential should be looked at.
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They either only play survivor or they’ve played killer only at low ranks so they don’t have a balanced perspective. Pretty much the entire high rank/high hour community agrees the game is survivor sided at the top level.
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Well to elaborate, swf plus headsets. Headsets give you so many perks for free. People know where the killer is, what he is doing, who he is chasing. The entire team knows when it's safe to work on gens, when it's safe to save someone, to take a hit with BT, to waste the killers time with DS, when to pop adren to screw the killer out of another down.
Also maps like Lerys, the game and Hawkins are not trapper friendly. Id say they are the worst for him because there is almost zero tall grass. Traps are pretty obvious. Indoor maps are just as bad for nurse. She can surprise you but that's only if she can see you. A lot of los blockers on those maps.
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The game can be as killer sided or as survivor sided as you want it to be. With all of these nucearly strong offerings, items, perk combinations and overpowered strategies on both sides you can easily tilt matches in whatever side.
I don't think there's any solo queue team that can win against a half decent killer with a mori and strong add-ons hard tunneling off hook, as I don't think there's any killer that can win against an omega sweat squat with map offerings, keys, toolboxes and whatever.
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If you have Tar bottle then the maps aren't bad with Trapper. But then again, that's a rare addon you're using when you might not get either of the indoor maps.
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I was playing with some red ranked players yesterday who were trying to say the game is killer sided. Granted, one of them was boosted, but the other one was not.
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He probably doesn’t play much killer then or he’s newer to the game.
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Bad survivors.
The game is killer sided only if the survivors are total potatoes, otherwise it's the killer that has to tryhard as ######### to do anything.
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The only autohaven map I hate is the one where the shack is in the absolute middle of the map. If the killer has agitation your almost always going to the basement.
+1
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All in all íts your opinion and I disagree a bit with what you say.
Perks:
Who cares if they are DLC or not? Get them from the shrine or buy the DLC.
Items:
There are tons off extremly powerful addons for killer and not just Iri head. Iri head is extremly broken and by far stronger then any addon for an item survivors have tho.
Survivor have Spytic Agent, key and well.. thats about it... i dont know why you even mention Commodius toolbox, Toolboxes are useless now.
Then you say killer only have Ebony or Ivory mori... you know, offerings which are more powerrful then all the items and addons survivors have.
Maps and Tile Spawns:
Alone that you generally put autohaven as survivor sided gives me a good insight how much you care to look at both sides equaly. It is true that indoor maps are usually more killer sided, but those are definitly not the only ones. Just look at Saloon, Sanctum of Wrath, Shelter Woods, Chapel, Azarovs etc all killer sided without a doubt.
And about tile spawns.... lol icould also say deadzone after deadzone after deadzone... what you are talking about is rare. Safe loops into safe loops are really not that common anymore.
Ormond is true tho i give you that, they should remove a few pallets.
Bugs: For both sides...
You will make a follow up on the history of things being nerfed? Great, this might open your eyes a bit ;)
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pretty much survivor sided even solo can beat a killer.
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i wouldnt generalise this whole game on which side is favoured theres a lot of variables into it, i can say that azarovs resting place is a killer sided map but with a 4 man swf runnin small pp build then its survivor sided you cant say either side is favoured because of the rng in this game
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Perks:
Survivor mains have to pay less money to get what they want. Killers have to wait for another terrible rng based mechanic to give them what they want or spend real money on it.
Items:
There's a difference between powerful and broken. Iri head is broken, but Flower Babushka is powerful.
Styptic Agents are incredibly powerful. It's literally MoM without a difficult activation requirement. Syringes are still great if you bring in healing speed increases. A Commodious Toolbox with both charge addons is enough to do over half a gen. If you bring in Streetwise that's even more. If you have that and you are working with someone else you will not only power through the gen, but you'll still have some charges left.
Maps and Tile Spawns:
Autohaven definitely comes second to Ormond in terms of safe loop spawns and number of pallets. This is especially true for Blood Lodge.
I was looking more at reals in general instead of maps, but Chapel is survivor sided. Azarov's can be survivor or killer favored depending on if the survs know not to 3-gen.
I've come across deadzone plateaus, but a deadzone is normally the result of a pallet already having been used.
Ormond should lose some pallets and maybe have the main building get looked at too. I'd like to see a return of the excavators that were on the map.
Bugs:
There are bugs on each side, yes, but killers have it worse.
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xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
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80% of players are survivors. Most people stick to survivor and the very few that do play killer don't play killer at a high enough level to experience how oppressive good survivors are.
Kill rate is so high because the game is very easy for survivor, so you get many survivors in ranks they don't belong because they've essentially been carried by their teams to that rank. True kill rate is more in line with what happened in Hexy's tournament, as those are very high level players.
This game is extremely unbalanced, so you get snowballs in either direction within the first few minutes of the game, barring very bad mistakes during the rest of the game. Even a SWF of 2 players means they can coordinate perks, they know which perks each one has, and they have someone they can trust to take protection hits if need be or if they need to stay on the hook for a bit they know the other person won't just suicide and they can make plays based off of that trust that increases the efficiency of the team to a level that helps snowball the other 2 survivors as well, or at least guarantees a non 4k.
Being a mediocre survivor playing high ranks, I can vastly increase my survival rate by running perks like BT and making team plays just by myself, if I was better or if I had someone to team with, I'd easily have over 80% survival rate, as I have about a 60% survival rate as solo in red ranks. Kill rates just illuminate how bad the average survivor is at red ranks, it doesn't show anything about game balance. It is unfortunate that the devs rely on those numbers instead of being able to play their game at a high level to see what can be abused and exploited, or at least seek the advice of players that offer them legitimate criticism.
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They also admitted that they count DC as kills because if they DC'ed they must have considered the game a loss anyway.
Which is flawed, because many suicide on first hook or DC at first down simply out of idiotic raging, whereas had they remained in the match and not screwed over the other three, they might have turned it around and more escaped.
That kill rate data is flawed to hell and back.
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Ummm I play 5 hours straight this Sunday with various players all over the Europe, and I can't escape a single trial ? Of course it's killer sided.
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I exclusively play solo que, and I can say with absolute certainty that if I didn't also play killer at high ranks then I'd think this game was killer sided as well. Bad teammates (which you are supposed to have) make the individual trial killer sided. In solo que, almost everyone is a boosted moron that has no real idea what they are doing, refuses to touch a gen to save their life, refuses to heal and goes down in 3 seconds, and generally makes the game miserable.
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yea addons for specific killers should not be considered especially when they are outdated and may not be used because well you know not everyone plays that killer. As for how strong those addons are the only one i can think of that is strong enough to completely make the match killer sided is IR hatchets which are outdated and will be changed after huntresses rework which is coming. no other addon can actually turn a match around against a meta swf.
Also keys are actually stronger than mori's a killer that is tunneling with a mori will get two kills if the survivors are smart and have a key since they will do the 3 gens required and then use the key to escape. if one of them gets found doesn't matter the last gets out with the key. this is especially likely if they knock out two gens at once in the beginning of a game which is common even among solo players.
for maps id say most are actually survivor sided and even the killer sided maps can be dealt with if you spread the gens properly. as for the game that map is actually survivor sided due to all the safe loops, if i remember correctly their are actually 5 or 6 god pallets on that one map. as for dead zones you can still loop regularly and if your team spreads the gens you win due to the distance as maps that have a lot of dead zones are generally really big.
edit: if your referring to the old op vaults, pallet vacuums, DS, BT, insta heals, flashlights, and whatever other small broken stuff i missed than your totally right those nerfs were not needed and the game was more balanced back then.
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Not killer sided, except they 3k and 4k my solo queue every game. Damn hatch, killer unplayable. :^)
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if 80% of people play survivors, then you will see a large portion of players being survivor friendly or anti killer on the forums, that's how population sizes work.
Rank does matter actually, you still need to pip. In order to pip you need to do objectives. Unfortunately it does not take much effort to pip as a survivor, you get a black pip if you just survive the trial and are carried by your team mates. Part of the reason why rank doesn't matter as much as it should is because of this.
The numbers were pulled from red ranks. If it is easy for survivors to pip and get into red ranks, more bad survivors will be in red ranks that don't belong in red ranks, this inflates survivor kill rates. Surprisingly this has an inverse reaction towards killer pipping because if you kill people too hard in this game, you will depip, so you got a bunch of bad survivors playing against very strong killers and you get a lot of dc's and 2 minute 4ks that go towards depipping the killer. Killer is much harder to pip in this regard, because you can actually depip if you kill too hard, if you survive too hard, you get an automatic black pip for surviving at the very least.
Red ranks were intended for the top players to play at, that's the whole reason there's a ranking system to begin with. True red rank games are much like what happened in Hexy's tournament, you should see kill rates very similar as red ranks are intended for high levels of play, much like hexy's tournament was. By true red rank games, I mean high level killers vs high level survivors.
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There is an algorithm that determines the strength of tiles in the game. Each tile has a certain value, and every map has the same maximum value set. The problem with this algorithm is that it does not take into account adjacent tile strength, so you can have a jungle gym go into cow tree go into shack and then a junk tile into an L wall T wall. This single chain is enough to run a killer for 5 gens easy. This algorithm can also swing pallets from 8 to 16 on some maps.
You understand the underlying problem of why killers get gen rushed, but you fail to understand why the chases take too long. Most of the pallets in most maps are safe pallets, meaning that you HAVE to kick them, if you are not kicking them, that means you are downing the survivor in another way like with hatchets or the survivor is not playing the tile and forcing you to kick it.
The reason why people are playing spirit and freddy is because both of these killers have good mobility and good tile play. Freddy has his traps that slow survivors down and Spirit's power turns every tile into an L wall T wall.
I would argue that all the M1 killers have nearly 0 way of applying team pressure, especially on bigger maps. By your logic, wraith should be a top tier killer, since he has invisibility and very high mobility to get up close to survivors. Obviously the game is much more complex than just boiling it down to chases lasting too long or not enough map pressure.
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This game is definitely killer sided
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I'm not saying SWF's don't have great advantages, but I'd encourage a lot of new players to play a fair bit of solo, for the same reason you try not to use perks- so you build/learn fundamental skills instead of using them as a crutch.
I will duo SWF sometimes and I can honestly say I usually perform worse, and I believe it's because I rely too much on communication and teammate than my own skills. Sometimes SWF mind games itself without any help from the Killer.
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One night I was in a 4 man swf and discord was acting up. We actually played the game as intended. It was more enjoyable.
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I think both are difficult to play as, but the number of times I have died in ranked matches from teammates farming and avoiding objectives or provoking the killer is ridiculously high. Those matches just ruin my whole experience. I don't hate the people who do it, I just wish they understood that my rank is not only dependent on how I play, but how they play as well. And then as killer you get some SWF that are super fun and maybe play around a bit, but then there are the ones who just plain bully you with pallet flashlight attacks! I've seen the best and worst of both sides, and I'm still new to the game, but I hope to see better sportsmanship in general. Also, I have had matches where the killer targets me, downs me, has teammates heal me to injured and then down me again, over and over and over... I had to disconnect because nothing was getting done and I legit felt like garbage. I knew that it was probably funny for them, but waiting to join a lobby only to have them do that kind of stuff is really awful.
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If the game had proper matchmaking, balancing at the top would be fine, but it doesn't. They need to just put a debuff on swf and be done with it. No stacking perks would suffice.
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Here is why the game is killer sided, I am a terrible killer. I can't see the survivors when they are standing right in front of me, I lose track of which way they go constantly causing them to be able to get a full map length of distance from me in the blink of an eye. I STILL get 4 kill matches 95% of my games. You all whine and complain when someone gets even one play off against you but you forget that survivors have to get almost all of their plays off against you to win. They mess up any play and they go down. As a killer you get taken in a play it's no big deal because you can get them on the next one, or the one after that. You have to fail so many times it's ridiculous, but you all that complain about it conveniently forget about all of your successes and only remember the few times a survivor got the upper hand.
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You are the only sane one here.
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it is far too easy to chain strong tiles to run a killer for enough time to win the game. Chases last far too long. A proper ranking system will keep the stronger players playing against other stronger players. The game is very unbalanced and is heavily survivor sided. Chases last much too long, maps are much too large, and there's too many safe pallets that don't offer any type of counterplay. It's not a surprise that the killers that can circumvent strong tiles with their power are seen as strong.
I'll keep posting this because it's by far the best way to balance a game, and a game that's 13 years old that still has more players playing than DBD shows that the design philosophy is tried and true. It allows casual players to have fun as well as hardcore players. Catering to just one part of the playerbase leads to imbalances in the other parts.
People are bad at this game because they have absolutely no incentive to get good. If bad players were kept at rank 20, they would either stay at that rank and play casually or they would learn the game and improve their ranks. Giving players participating trophies is a poor way to gauge their skill. Also, despite what the devs say, it's not that terribly difficult to balance this game. You just have to either play the game and reach a high level to understand the nuance of it, or you have to take advice from people who do, the devs simply don't do this, they don't play their game at a high level and they are generally smug about the balance of this game, thinking they know better than the top players that are able to break it. Understanding what each side must do to either prolong a chase or end it is the key to gauging player skill. Relying on spreadsheets is a good way to make a game 'balanced' but feel like utter crap playing, it's the difference between losing and feeling like there was nothing you could do to win, and losing and feeling like you just didn't play well and learning from your mistakes.
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They're rank 10-20.
On a different note, the fact that most people play survivor when they want an easy or relaxing game is definitely a problem. Neither side should have it that easy.
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I really agree with this! People tend to say "keys are broken" But then say "yeah, but moris are broken so it's only fair". Ignoring one problem or saying one unbalanced thing fixes another isn't fixing anything.
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Again, it's not about being a hardcore competitive game, it's about making the game fun and accessible to everyone, not just people who want to play hardcore or people who want to just play casually. That's why this video is important. The way to balance the game for all levels of play is to balance it towards the people that break the game, with some compromise to the other players. That way the game is balanced at all levels of play and you don't have players who break the game absolutely bullying the normal players like you do on DBD.
I really don't know why you only see these suggestions as catering just to high level play. These suggestions are specifically designed to balance the game at all levels of play to make the game fair for everyone that plays it.
Most maps are not fine, most maps are broken. Even the most balanced map in the game, bedham, has the school which is god awfully survivor based.
The game doesn't need a competitive mode, it just needs to separate the skilled players from the non-skilled players. Although ideally if the game was properly balanced around skilled play, non-skilled players would be able to play against skilled players and still have fun. That's the beauty of balancing the game around high level play, you don't get people who can just abuse mechanics and bully lower skilled players.
DBD is much more simpler than TF2, there's hundreds of weapons spread across 12 classes in TF2. In DBD you just have survivors vs killers and then killer powers and perks. The video I posted is mostly talking about game balance and it uses TF2 as a perfect example of good game balance, it's really not about the game itself, it's the design philosophy that was implemented in it that has stood the test of time. DBD has a player retention problem because it becomes very unfun at high levels of play.
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That's 3 words
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I think there's a pretty reasonable ideas to why the kill rate is above 50%.
If you check out Steam's global achievements, you'll see that 14% of all survivors and 8% of all killers have managed to reach reach rank 10 respectively. That means, the global of majority of players don't play enough to reach deep enough into the ranks (or are just bad enough to never rank up) to get past it.
Explains why the kill rate is so high when there's so many low ranked players getting annihilated.
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Badham is one of the more balanced maps in the game, this is the view of most good players of the game, more importantly OhTofu, who has about 7000 hours in the game and has been playing it since it came out.
I can tell by the way you talk about ranking that you don't have much to offer in terms of what balance means from both points of view. It's quite telling how limited your knowledge is of the game. I'm just going to leave it at that because there's not much point in discussing the nuances of the game and game design philosophy with you especially because you seem to not understand a single thing I say, forcing me to repeat myself.
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So I actually think the game is relatively balanced, but the amount of bias in this is laughable.
- Perks
Most of the DLC characters can be unlocked with shards or their perks can be found on the shrine. Killers have multiple solid builds they can run that are all useful and strong (depending on the killer). Gen slowdown builds, anti-healing builds, anti-stealth builds, a complete hex totem build. There's actually a legit variety in killer's builds and none of them are weak.
Survivor builds are basically, the meta (DS/Unbreakable/Exhausting perk of choice/random 4th perk), a complete healing build, a complete stealth build. Anything outside of those 3 is pretty much memes like Sabo builds and vault faster because i have resilience and no mither kinda stuff
2 . Items and Offerings
This is where you really made the LEAST sense. Were you serious or trolling? Survivors on good items now are keys. Toolboxes got nerfed into the ground. BNP got nerfed so hard that they were made damn near useless. At best, they're used to rush a gen that's almost done but the killer has Pop and they're on the way. The "used to be" insta heal is now pretty weak and you rarely see anyone use it.
Killers have the 4 things you mentioned + all the other ultra rares and even some rare add ons that are stronger than ultra rares. Prayer beads, Franks Mix Tape, pretty much all of Freddy's add ons, windstor
3 . Maps and Tile Spawns
Most maps are fine honestly. Some of them should be a little smaller, that's it. Also Nurse is one of the most powerful characters on indoor maps because she can bypass walls and she can teleport up and downstairs. Like on the game when you run up those stairs to jump down into the little silo thing, nurse can just blink right through the floor and you're screwed. No other killer has that kind of chase ability on a level that has multiple floors and hundreds of walls.
4 . Glitches
Glitches affects both sides.
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The game is 4 man SWF-sided.
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Holy #########, I was expecting a killer circlejerk on this thread but this is a new low.
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3 letters
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Peanits said in a comment somewhere that DCs weren't even included in the last set of stats.
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the game is not killer sided when you play against 3/4 man when i play agaisnt solos i win every single time... so the game is killer sided IF you go agaisnt solos with all their ineficciency-
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Hotel? Trivago
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If we're talking from back in 2019 or so, I specifically asked him if they were and he said: yes. At which point, I questioned the decision and he replied with what I stated above about DCs.
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This is a major misconception. DBD is not a team game whatsoever, just because there's 4 survivors does not mean they are supposed to be an organized team. The story indicates four survivors are put in a desolate location that are not supposed to know each other. The idea right here that if one survivor is a little weaker than the others means the entire team will definitely fail confirms there is a major balancing issue. It confirms killers are way too overpowered.
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it is killer sided
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I mean, either he's telling you something different than he is to other people, would you be able to find the comment where he said DC's are included? :)
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