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Why is Pyramid Head often referred to as "unfun"?
I know that he doesnt have that much counterplay, but why is a killer called unfun if he cant be countered.
I personally love playing as and against him and its really fun on both sides for me cuz of the mindgames you can do as him and against him.
People are just used to playing the same way against every killer and thats the issue here.
I just wanted to know why?
Comments
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I think a lot of players just haven't got used to him yet; once they figure out how to play against him the complaints will lessen.
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yeah i guess so
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I know that he doesnt have that much counterplay, but why is a killer called unfun if he cant be countered.
Is this a serious question?
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This is just how this community reacts to anything that requires a change up in play style. New killers/existing base kit changes = "The killer is unfun and I will dc in every match I load into with them." The same thing is happening with the dc wave that's come after crossplay. The console people swear it's unfair they have to play against pc so now they are dc'ing in nearly every match. Welcome to the DBD community!
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because he cant be looped for 10 mins
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anything that interrupts the mindless survivor pathing of looping, throwing down a safe pallet, then beelining to the next pallet loop is unfun.
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Pretty much
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PH has enough counterplay. He's still for the most part an M1 killer that can be looped.
Maybe survivors don't like him because his cages don't let them stab him with DS.
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Its a combination of things. His ability to immediately cancel his trails and m1 as an effective mind game annoys some people. And his ability to cancel hook perks like BT and DS. I like him though.
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That's not a mind game
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Case and point, here.
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I'll leave this post here as was posted in another similar thread :-
I'll post this here and see how accurate I was. Something I wrote in 5-7 minutes in another thread which got 0 traction. Want to see what people think. I don't own Pyramid Head, I watch people play and gather info.
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He's definitely A Tier.
What makes him so strong is the ability to completely deny these perks:
- We'll make it - doesn't work with cages
- Up the Ante - doesn't work with cages
- Slippery meat - doesn't work with cages
- Babysitter - trash tier perk but doesn't work with cages
- Kindred - doesn't work with cages
- Second Wind - doesn't work with cages
- Off the record - doesn't work with cages
- Camaraderie - doesn't work with cages
- Boil Over - trash tier perk but doesn't work with cages
- Breakout - PH can send someone to the cage, instead of having to carry them.
- Breakdown - doesn't work with cages
- Saboteur - doesn't work with cages
- Unbreakable - Someone running DS + Unbreakable and just got unhooked ? Just send him to the cage
- Deliverance - doesn't work with cages
- Borrowed Time - doesn't work with cages
- Decisive Strike - probably the biggest F u to all survivors, doesn't work with cages. Someone got unhooked infront of you but he's tormented? send him to the cage, next time you hook him he's dead on hook or you can mori him on the spot if he's tormented. Ez peasy, lemon squezy, tunneling is free real estate.
Trying to pick up someone with DS but they're not tormented? Just make a trail over them and pick them up, when the survivor DS'es you they will be instantly tormented. With this you can either Hook them or send them to the cage. It's better to hook since you can mori them instantly afterwards on the spot and no need to carry them to the hook, just my opinion. Or just mori them on the spot if it's their last hook.
Exhaustion - doesn't work with cages, not a perk, but a status. If you dead hard but got instantly killed afterwards, exhaustion will not go away if you get rescued from a cage.
He can lock down down entire loops / areas with just ability. Want to get everyone tormented? Always use your ability when going around map. That crap is so BS it stays for absolute minutes, not mentioning it's so buggy it can turn invisible at some point and you'll walk over an invisible trail and get tormented. He can put a trail around shack, the survivor either has to go around which will buy the killer more time to hit you or go to another loop / pallet... you know... if there's any left... When you're at a loop, make a trail as you go trough the pallet, this will force the survivor to:
A) Go trough the trail and get to the pallet
B) Go to another Loop - Mind you, PH is a 115% movement killer, he is no Hag or Huntress... That man... moves FAST....
And here comes the guessing game, which makes PH in my opinion one of the strongest killers out there, and MY 2nd most hated killer. Props to Spirit for taking the nr.1 spot.
- When at shack for example, PH is FAST ENOUGH to catch up to you while he's dragging his sword trough the ground while you're going for the window, then he can either FAKE an attack or when you sees you que for the animation, there's enough time for his power to hit you. Take all of this in consideration while, that man is getting closer to you, if you fake the window a good PH will instantly cancel his attack and m1, yes can instantly follow-up with an m1 attack afterwards.
- Let's say the survivor chose the A) choice from above. If you are pretty close to the survivor but not close enough to guarantee a hit while he's getting closer to the pallet... Just put your damn sword in the ground and as soon as he throws down the pallet just hit him since the trail is wide enough to guarantee a hit no matter what. The survivor keeps going? Just go trough, since you have no cooldown and then instantly continue at 115% speed with no slowdown which will most likely guarantee you a hit
- Oh you got stunned while your sword in the ground? INSTANTLY PRESS / SPAM YOUR ABILITY BUTTON to send out the trail to hit the survivor on the other side of the pallet EVEN THOUGH you got stunned. This also happens with Huntress but it's more prominent with PH due to his power. I've died so many times due to this, I've quit playing DBD for a week or so just because I was tired of dealing with his power.
Now, that we got around that, let's look how scummy you can play this killer, even though I've mentioned a thing or two above:
- BT is ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY against this killer. Which is why BT never leaves my perk build... Never... I give up iron will for it. If you ever decide to save, PH can put his sword in the ground and wait for you to unhook, if he times it right, which can be done quite easily... He can hit both survivors. If you don't have BT, you'll end up with a person in dying state and one injured, or 2 in dying state if you decide to unhook while injured and want to trade without BT. Now what he can do if there's one injured and one in dying state is send the one in dying state to the cage if they're tormented and continue chasing you with no repercussion and gaining even more pressure in the process.
- He can do the same thing with the cages, the best thing is... BT DOESN'T WORK with cages, so get outplayed.
- Cages will teleport elsewhere if PH decides to stay in close proximity to them, this used to be a massive problem in the past because PH was allowed to see cages and instantly go over them. Now... you can Bypass this... Either stay far away from the cage and know how far your power reaches or just simply use a range addon. The cage will not teleport and you can hit both the person inside the cage and the person who tries to go for the rescue. Don't forget BT doesn't work wit cages, so if the person inside the cage is dead on hook, PH can very easily guarantee a kill.
Let's not forget that his ability can go trough WALLS, but hates stairs and elevated positions. I've died a few times due to him either correctly guessing where I am or just accidently guessing where I was going even though... There was no way he could've knowed... because you know... there's a literal god damn wall separating me and him... I count those deaths one of the most BS ones I have in DBD.
- Killers: JuSt ReAcT tO HiS PoWeR BrO.... Usually what most people tell me to do.
Those people are very well known streamers as good as Shroud which can instantly react and can catch a bullet mid-flight... /s.
- Killers: Just fake an action bro - Yeah, someone with a brain can adapt to how I play and will know what to do next time. If he got baited into a fake window vault, he'll know next time how I play.
Don't get me wrong, PH is no way an easy killer to pick up, in fact, he's one of the hardest killer to master out there. He'll take some time but with practice he'll definitely turn into some killing machine, and you inbox will be filled with hate as well.
TL;DR - I hate PH and his guts. His addition to the game was not a healthy one. Hate how scummy you can play him.
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thats the main issue. you can not drop the pallet and it dont matter as he dosent get penalized for cancel into an M1 straight away. You can just fake using your power constantly and just m1
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ill be honest, and say that im not 100% certain as to what to do to loop a PH. Im just kinda hoping i can make them miss.
THB i think that PH needs a longer attack cooldown after lifting his blade out of the ground, so if the PH doesnt commit to using his ranged attack, the survivor can run slightly further before getting M1ed, allowing them to maybe vault a window or pallet.
Alternatively, we could put the ranged attack on an 8s cooldown, so he cant just spam it if he misses.
Of course, i thin PH deserves a buff if his ranged attack gets changed.
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if you fake constantly you create a pattern, a pattern that good survivors can exploit.
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It's not just Pyramid Head, they level the same complaint about Spirit and Deathslinger. I think part of it is people kind of jumping on Scott Jund's bandwagon against these three particular killers because he thinks they're "boring to play against". (I don't know why he thinks that using terrain to get cover from a ranged attack is more boring than watching the killer for an attack animation and dodging when you see it but to each his own I guess. 🤷♂️ )
I seem to recall Scott also has made some similar complaints about survivor mechanics he thinks are "boring" but I think his complaints about these particular killers get more buzz.
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he can zone windows for free giving the survivor no chance, he can also tunnel people off hook with ease other than that hes pretty fun to verse
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ill keep it simple but there’s a few reasons I don’t like him.
His ability gives him any and every reason to tunnel. Just got unhooked and knocked down instantly? No worries, get caged 5 seconds later.
if you drop a pallet, you get hit with his ability. If you don’t drop the pallet, you get smacked with an m1.
a killer that can tunnel with no consequence, has almost no counter play if played correctly, has no penalty for charging his ability and can hit threw walls is suppose to be fun to play against? Sure.
completely fun and fair killer, thanks for tunneling like a piece of ######### and getting rewarded for it.
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He is strong in loops which frustrates survivors.
I think his ability to just spam his power is what gets old. You can outplay him 4 times in a loop ,dodging, then get hit by his 5th attempt at a window or pallet.
Which kinda feels cheap after outplaying him over and over again.
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Strong killer =uNfUn
It's so simple.
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How can they exploit it? There’s no real downside to faking the power and if they try to call your bluff by vaulting you just use the power. Fake it as much as you want, the survivors can’t really do anything about it either way. Unless you only fake and never actually use your power, but I’m not sure why anyone would actually do that.
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I've not played as him except on the PTB, and have rarely played against him, so I don't really know if I consider him fun to go against as I just havent gone against many.
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Your 3rd sentence says it all.
Though maybe not at this scale, i saw enough complaints about the Doctor, cause he was meant to "change how the Survivors play against him".
Successful or not, it had the same effect on player feedback for a little while as Executioner does today.
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Watching the best players in the game play vs actually doing it yourself makes a load of difference. In order to get an M1, you have to be at a certain distance away from the survivor, this distance just so happens to be about the distance you need in order to stun the killer. If PH is doing this to you and he's very close you to you, you can just stun him, otherwise if he M1s you, he's not going to hit you.
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Well, as a main survivor I love going against him but the main reasons why people dislike him are
He can avoid flashlight saves
He can avoid DS and BT (Two meta perks)
Cages counts as a hook state
If you're in the dying state and tormented he can mori you if you're in your last hook.
Sabo squads can't attempt to sabotage the hooks to free the survivor
You can't loop him, or chain loops with him. He can leave a trail and you're "forced" to step on it.(I have writted forced since they're not really forced, they just refuse to run away from that extra safe pallet where they can force you to spend 5 minutes chasing them and then, dead hard into the pallet.
If they step on the trail, you will have killer instinct so even if there's a wall/ rock or pallet you can guess where they will go and go for your ranged attack. Something that only Nurse's can do, and she is considered unfun to go against as well.
They can't vault and abuse the twu wall windows since you can use PH ranged attack
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No even if they continue to fake the psychological effect is there. Also who says the PH will stop faking and start committing.
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Like I laid out, all you have to do is look behind you and see how close the PH is to you. You seem to think this interaction is static, but it's not. If the PH is close enough to you to m1, they are also close enough to stun, barring some circumstances like with corners. If they are not close enough to you to m1, you can continue running. The PH also has to be within a certain distance to even attempt this juke. Watching a good killer do this to a bad survivor very obviously makes it look unbalanced, but the interaction is a little more nuanced.
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The reason I find him unfun is Most players seem to tunnel with him.
Guess that must be the best way to play him 🤷🏻♂️
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I think you nailed it!
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Regardless of the fact if hes close enough to m1 I've seen PH use the ranged. If you ever go against an experienced PH you will see the unwinnable situations you are put into. This killer has been bs since day one. I was disappointed with his release.
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because you cant easily loop him as you would loop a wraith. as simple as that, he actually has anti loop, and every killer who can deal with looping is unfun to go against.
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You put your sword in the ground and ready up your power as you go round the loop. The survivor approaches the pallet. You wait briefly to see what they do, just out of stun range, denying them the opportunity to stun you. If they drop the pallet or try to camp it you hit them with your power. If they don’t drop the pallet and go for another loop you continue following them and close the gap before proceeding to M1 them.
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Yes, if you go against a more experienced player than yourself, you can expect to lose. You are seeing this interaction in a vacuum, and an experienced survivor would do things so that they aren't put into that situation in the first place. The very obvious and simple thing to do is to throw down pallets early and then play them until the PH kicks them. Experienced survivors tend to not put themselves into positions that make them vulnerable to killers at unsafe loops unless they absolutely have to. You have to look at the game from a bigger picture than just one interaction.
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An experienced survivor versus an experienced PH is still a win for the killer. With PH the most if the situations you are found in are a bad one.
If you are running to a filler if you run through the pallet you either A eat the range or B dodge and eat the m1. A jungle gym if you go and take the windis vault you A eat the range or B dodge and eat the m1. The only safe-ish structures are tractors and other inclines on the map as the range cant bend upwards.
If you prethrow hes gonna shoot you with the range.
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Considering this isn't a 1v1 pvp game and that it's in fact a 4v1 pvp game, the killer should ideally be around 4 times stronger than an individual survivor. There's a reason why the strongest strategy to ensure a survivor win is splitting up and doing gens. The point of an individual survivor is to maximize the time wasted by the killer chasing them while the other survivors do gens. Teamwork is the core of survivor gameplay.
Pyramid head ranged attack isn't guaranteed, it has a DPI slowdown like the deathslinger's does, it's very hard to aim, that's why the only way ph even hits his ranged attack is if survivors are stuck in an animation or otherwise stunned.
Killers that can circumvent or limit the effects of throwing safe pallets down are generally seen as the strongest on this game, and those that can't are seen as the weakest. Clown has one of the strongest anti loop powers in this game, but he's trash because there's not much he can do once the pallet has been thrown. The killer needs to be strong and the killer needs to be able to catch survivors, this is not a 1v1 game, it's a 4v1 game. I don't think many players realize the strength in numbers nor do they realize that in order for the game to be balanced, survivors have to be able to be caught by the killer. In fact it's more than that, considering it takes 12 hooks to fully kill all the survivors.
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He's unfun and unbalanced because he has no cooldown when switching his power. A barely decent PH can hold his power at a pallet and hit you with his M2 if you throw it down or use his M1 if you don't. Absolutely zero counterplay and it's wrong.
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The only time this was correct was wheb Legion came out
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So I other words it's fine he has an oppressive chase ability because I'd 1v4 and you can gen rush him. Cool this convo Is over. Gen rushing an splitting on gens is boring and ends the game too quickly. Chases are fun if i cant have fun doing that then might as well winter switch sides.
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facts
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You're right that chases are fun but chasing a single survivor for all 5 gens, being able to chain loops just because of the RNG is not fun for the killer either.
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Alright gonna break this down for you. For starters if the chase is going on for too long drop it smart killers realize this early. Chaining loops takes actual skill.
Not every survivor can effectively chain windows or pallets. There is an exception to god loops. But being able to chain T and L walls into let's say a shack window is no easy feat.
Honestly a 5 gen chase should never happen unless you are a bad killer or the survivor is seriously outplaying you. I admit being ran for a long time isn't fun but it usually is your fault.
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Because a 50/50 is not a 50/50 with some killers.
A Spirit with Stridor
A Pyramid Head with I'm All Ears
Death Slinger having a half second shoot time
etc...
In these situations you don't feel equal with the killer, both sides don't have the same chance.
And that's why it's unfun.
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He's certainly more fun to go against than Legion
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Oh my god is just came back and there are so many comments.
I read all of them and i understand why now.
People should adapt to new killers and at least try to learn some counterplay, but instead they just say hes unfun and dont even try.
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nah you simply camp the pallet if he uses his power you go around the loop if not you throw it down, it requires some split second reaction time but i managed to use this strategy, maybe ill make a post listing some counters
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Actually. I am not a bad killer or so I want to believe. I do agree that normally you would realize if the chase last very long, but you need to realize that between finding the first survivor and chasing him, 3 gens can pop at the same time.
I don't agree with the looping or chain window being hard, it's pretty easy when you know the map, being honest knowing the map it's the only thing it takes, and after a year, you already know every map, safe, unsafe pallets and windows. Being honest it doesn't require to know the map, it can be done by luck as well. Yesterday I was able to do that in the Doctor's map and the killer was unable to hit me, or get closer enough to hit me, and I didn't use a single pallet, just chaining windows. But after a whole minute of he chasing me and no one doing gens I let him hook me, since the match won't go anywhere.
I do partially agree that it's the killer fault, but against experienced or optimate survivors, you would get stuck in doing so since if you stop chasing A and then chase B, it will be the same since both of them are experienced.
Post edited by Saitamfed on1 -
Then what about a survivor seeing the red stain from behind walls? I am a main survivor but it's very unfun when you as a survivor can see the position of a killer because the red stain that you shouldn't be able to see.
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I play console and I enjoy playing with pc players. They aren’t that different from console players. People just generalize that kind of stuff based on only what they see
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This did not take you 5-7 minutes but I loved it lol. The only thing I'd add is that with typical ping his ranged attack can't be dodged, which I think is trash given that he can zone with it, hit multiple survivors with it, and can hit through walls. Per the wiki:
The Punishment of the Damned Attack Trail will spawn with a delay of 0.267 seconds.
The individual Attack Trail Elements will spawn with a time offset of 0.033 seconds between each element to simulate a propagating attack wave.
The Punishment of the Damned Attack Trail has a default length of 8 metres.
What this means is that with no add-ons you will be hit at up to 8 meters within 300ms. Per Wikipedia, the mean reaction time for college-age people responding to a simple visual stimulus is 190ms. That's just detecting a simple visual stimulus and signaling that you saw it, which would certainly be easier than recognizing PH's attack in a game like DBD where there's a so much else competing for your attention. Still, let's take that number as a floor. Typical ping for me is 70-125ms, but I have buddies that are often closer to 30-50ms. Let's say for the sake of math that you and the killer both have 55ms ping, which would be better than I have ever gotten in DBD.
190ms reaction time + 110ms latency = 300ms. There's not even a fraction of a second to try to dodge. By the time the survivor can react, the attack will have already hit them.
It is extremely unfun to play against a killer that can zone with their power. If PH were less than 100% movement speed while leaving trails this wouldn't be an issue. It also wouldn't be an issue if you could react to his ranged attack and dodge it. In practice, though, it's complete guess work. If the attack missed, it's because the PH missed. If you try to dodge, he should walk up and M1 you. Pallet drops and vaults are free hits.
I don't even care about his cages and his "torment mori". Those are strong in their own right, but you can control whether or not you get tormented. I just want to be able to make a skillful play to extend chases against him. As is you just have to guess and hope he's bad.
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Probably because of his ability to play around DS, which flips the game on it's head since everyone runs and abuses that perk. Also, his split-second baiting of his ranged attack. If you vault the window, he has it preemptively ready. If you don't, he cancels it and hits you. Similar thing with pallets. That's stronger than both Huntress and Deathslinger's projectiles, which I can't believe is a statement that exists.
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