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So.. Pyramid head will soon be changed.
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This is sad honestly. He's a great mind killer. Oh no he can fake his ability and hit me because I panicked. Surv mains always complain about being out brained or faked out sure .5 secs is slightly to quick. Any longer he won't be viable in high rank games. Atm there is literally 3 including him that can do good at high ranks. I think it would be surv sided if he gets needed.
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It's insane how people like you think every killer should have "consistent counterplay" when there's 4 survivors vs 1 killer on every single match.
Imagine thinking the team with more people not only have a right to, but SHOULD be able to 1v1 the killer over and over and over again.
Counterplay should NOT be easy against ANY killer for the simple fact that they're an entire team, while survivors tanking are A PART of the team. Seriously I get the feeling people like you can't wait to get an offline mode where you only go against bots who only follow around every loop and break pallets.
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I don't really think he needs a change in my opinion. As a killer, he's fun to play as and as survivor, he's fun to play against, in my opinion (because I don't rely on second chance hook perks). I like that he's a strong killer because the game needs strong Killers at its current state. In regards to the M2/M1 switch, it doesn't really matter to me because he literally is an M1 killer at 4.4 speed until he swings. The hit or hit aspect of him is kinda up to survivor positioning and anticipation. He won't be able to have that situation if a survivor for example throws a pallet earlier at a jungle gym instead of trying to loop. He either has to break it or try and get a ranged hit which could go in either person's favor.
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people went from saying spirit has consistent counterplay and to just "git gud" to now saying its okay she doesn't
at least they wised up a bit, baby steps
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I fail to see how utilizing a killers kit to the best way possible is playing scummy, but ok.
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The PERFECT example of just how delusional some survivor mains are. It's literally an ASYMMETRICAL GAME, in what universe would it be okay for survivors to have the same chance in a chase as killers? That's the dumbest argument I've read today. There's a reason it's a 1v4, if there were 4 killers then OF COURSE, makes sense that survivors should have a chance to win every chase.
Did this never cross your mind or are we playing different games? 4 survivors vs 1 killer? No?
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So a Trapper putting a trap on the other side of a wall you can't see is OP too? You can't see it and unless you saw him put it there it's a 50/50 chance every time you move to a different tile. We gonna go around screaming trapper is unfair now? Should there be counterplay to that? What about every time you're about to step on a trap a loud bell rings so you can avoid it.
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Not gonna lie, I love PH as he is now both as survivor and killer but your suggestions are perhaps the most sensible unbiased I've read regarding this topic. That way being tormented becomes a real threat and being able to get PGTW/BBQ from a cage sounds like a decent tradeoff for DS and BT.
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Please point to me where I mentioned anything even tangentially related to that, omega logical extremes being used in arguments are a sign you have no argument at all imo.
Spirit having a lack of feedback and counterplay is what I said, address that specifically or don't reply at all.
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If I may be so bold, I think his cage system should be all or nothing. Either all perks work with his gameplay mechanics or both killer and survivor hook perks should be useless when considering cages to keep a level playing field. It'd be fair beings it'd force PH to weigh the pros and cons of playing like a normal killer and risk DS and BT or use the cages and lose the benefits of BBQ and Chili and other perks. Secondly, DS is easy to negate well before PH was a thing so I'd redirect your focus on making it less easy to cancel out beings you can either wait it out or juggle a survivor to negate it. Not to mention BT is kind of a thin bandaid to apply to being tunneled. Not that tunneling is a problem, its a viable option yet all thr current options can do is slow it, not stop it.
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Or make him hit survivors with his head. That will hurt a lot more.
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They announced they're gutting pyramid head. that is all you need to know. All that pyramid head ever was that whenever you loop a pallet, if the window or the pallet is straight line, he can put his sword into the ground after 1 second and if you approach said pallet or window, he will either watch you vault window and use POFD or he will cancel his power into M1 and people use this situation as "Pyramid head has no counter-play" because they're looping him in wrong direction. When pyramid puts his sword into the ground, his turning is not full control and in order to flick his attack, he has to stop in place and than turn. so like for example on Shack loop, if you loop clock-wise, you will eventually top situation where pyramid will stick his sword into the ground and wait for you to vault/put down pallet, but if you loop him counter-clockwise where it is a bit harder to get fast vault on shack window, than pyramid head does not have straight line situation at the pallet and he has to make a read through obstacles and he can not really go next to the pallet or else he risks getting stunned. Ironically his gameplay is present on Huntress where people often wind-up a hatchet as turn a corner and if you take window, she hits you, if you move in constricted area of the pallet, you get hit and if you do nothing, she will walk up to shack pallet with hatchet up and than cancel her hatchet and M1 you. Demo is also the same, except unlike pyramid head, he can't hit you through pallets, and he is forced to lunge through pallet and suffer one of the longest pallet break animations for a killer power and Deathslinger is also the same, but if your in 9-10-meter range of deathslinger and he can fake his gun, than your already playing it wrong against him.
Given how unreliable hitting his power already is, if he had 3 second cooldown for canceling his power which would remove his mindgame, I am not even sure if his power would be strong enough even if his power was an instant down. A big reason to why need to fake his power out is that pyramid head is very predictable if he spams his power at every chance he gets and this canceling mindgame grants him a lot of deception and unpredictability. Its what make him very scary in a chase. Its funny how he loses to map pressure despite having very fast chases but that is killer life.
No clue why people freak out about Pyramid head but that is DBD in a nutshell.
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I'm glad they are finally doing this, pyramid head is the most obvious killer (besides spirit) that has absolutely no counterplay besides the killer being bad. All the killer has to do is bring up his rites of judgement whenever you reach a pallet or window and you have no choose but to get hit. Even if you manage to get through a window or drop a pallet you only get 1 loop out of it before getting into the same situation again. The only thing you can do is get enough distance to be out of range of his power.
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IMO the cage should be separate from hooks but something survivors share. So there are maybe 4 "cage" states and X amount of time between them all. Once the amount is up anyone that has torment can be mori'd.
Also yea sure, a short delay after canceling RoJ before he can swing can help too.
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No killer should be able to lock a survivor in a no-win situation. The fact they are this slow to look at him means money before balance.
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I literally gave you an example of another situation in the game with no feedback and no counterplay. You can use your buzz words all you want if they make you feel better, I gave you a parallel comparison to the "problematic" nature of the Spirit and you suddenly became Ben Shapiro. I don't need you to mention my example for me to put it on the table.
You get grass moving and footsteps when a Spirit is phasing, a hidden trap won't even do that for you.
You claim I have no argument and not a single time have you addressed why you think all killers should have counterplay, once again, considering this game is an ASYMMETRICAL pvp.
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I think the only change I would make if making the cage basically a hook , so you could still use bt or if you saved , you could unhook your self from a cage , other than making his cage just a reskinned hook I don't think any changes are necessary
I think he is in a good spot
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I'm not asking for equal speed here, I mean by 50/50 is when I get downed the reason could be either a bad play from me or a good play from the killer.
Red rank Nurse, Spirit, Deathslinger, or Pyramid Head have a huge advantage while in a chase over the survivors that winning against them is the result of them screwing up and not us playing correctly.
You didn't answer me,
How is the Deathslinger having a instant shot fair? What can we do as survivors?
How is Spirit with stridor fair? What can survivors do in that case?
How is Pyramid Head with I'm all ears fair? How can we counter a killer that can shut most loops that survivors just go down in seconds?
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i honestly dont think they will.
his core design is all about punishing those who get cocky with hook farms, he is very much like Bubba in that regard, minus the insta down, therefore with the ability to ignore DS.
the only thing that is probaly going to get changed - and what definitely needs changing - is his ability to fake the ability.
though they didnt say they wanted to "nerf" him, they talked about changes. that can just as well mean buffs for his basekit - and i honestly think that they cant just nerf him without buffing him in a different aspect aswell.
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Pretty weak response. They're a paying customer and they could voice their opinions as they see fit despite whether or not you agree with them. You don't need to be a developer for that, that's ridiculous.
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Welp it's more then likely gonna be rip PH he will more then likely not be able to go against top % if they change how he can cancel his power. That and the cages to negate ds and borrowed time are the only things that allow him to go against top % of survivors.
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Whatever these changes are I just hope that they won't SIGNIFICANTLY gut Pyramid Head. Personally I find him fun to play as a killer and find him fun to go against as Survivor. For me PH matches don't come by often, but I do hope it won't go to nurse tier like matches where they'll be even more rare to come-by or people will pull a hillbilly and just drop him. Same thing with deathslinger since I main him. I don't mind if changes will happen to either of them, but I just hope it won't make others drop them completely.
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@Brhoom "In these situations you don't feel equal with the killer"
It's an asymetrical horror game. If you're in the 4 then you're not meant to be equal to the 1. Making the 4 able to individually go toe-to-toe with the 1 is why half the killers in this game are trash.
@Kbot22 "I'm glad they are finally doing this, pyramid head is the most obvious killer (besides spirit) that has absolutely no counterplay besides the killer being bad. All the killer has to do is bring up his rites of judgement whenever you reach a pallet or window and you have no choose but to get hit. "
If you're running in a straight line towards a window and PyramidHead has his sword in the ground then yes you're getting hit. However people act like it's EVERY pallet/window which is not the case.
Firstly, PyramidHead MUST have his sword in the ground already. You can not put your sword in the ground, fire off a shock and get a hit if you do it as the survivor is vaulting/dropping a pallet. It must be done in advance. The hitbox on the shock attack is so slim survivors need only move a single footstep to the left or right for it to miss. Hence he needs to have it prepped.
Secondly, some loops in the game are at angles. For example on some maps the loops are in an oval shapre - 0, with the pallet at the slimmest parts. Due to the curve pyramid head can not line his attack up in advance, and if he tries it then due to him turning worse than a shopping cart he's very unlikely to get the hit. Likewise if you run in a building take a hard left and vault he's not gonna get the hit.
@Devil_hit11 This guy gets it. This is someone who has actually played PyramidHead vs good survivors. Pyramid needs a straight line. Anything at an angle and he's not gonna get it. Likewise you can randomly spam attacks through a wall and most wont hit, it wastes time. Also if you're stood still while he's spamming shocks through a wall then its on you for staying in an unsafe area. Pyramid isn't much different to Huntress, if she preps a hatchet as you run direct to a window then she gets the hit, if you fake it and run sideways she just adjusts her aim and throws at you. Yeah huntress is slower than pyramid at movement and prepping a hatchet but thats because her attack can go much further, much faster and she has full aiming, no shopping cart controls.
Let me ask you all a question that are saying pyramid head has no counterplay as you run towards a window....
If I'm playing Trapper, Wraith, Leatherface, Hillbilly, Legion, or any similar bog standard M1 killers, and I'm chasing a survivor in a straight line towards a window, and both me and the survivor know that at the distance between us, I'm likely to get the hit as the survivor vaults, so they tap E to add distance with Dead Hard and now they safely make the window vault...
What is the killers counterplay to that?
Oh that's right there's none. None at all. Yet nobody complains. Because it's just taken for granted that killers need plenty of counterplay in every situation but it's just generally accepted that survivors have none.
So many hypocrites out there. PyramidHead is fine. He's the most fun killer in a longtime and my new main. i know this is said a lot but if he gets gutted I genuinely think I'll be done with the game.
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Is it that surprising seeing how hard other killers are gutted? Also PH needs to be gutted but DS is still abused and no word on that rework. Just dbd Devs being dbd
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knowing how to argue topics = ben shapiro omegalul.
Having to guess against a spirit is not meaningful gameplay, you can see and hear when a trapper places traps, you can use your eyes to avoid traps, you toss a coin against a spirit assuming she isnt awful.
if you think spirit moving grass and her footsteps (which are bugged currently as well lmao) is how you can counter her, then i know of a certain person who will take you up on that challenge @ScottJund
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@ClickyClicky You responded to criticism towards PH with whataboutism. Think Dead Hard is unfair? make a thread and explain there.
You finding a killer fun doesn't negate points raised about him in the community.
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Okay so I'm gonna repeat myself since I think my point didn't really come across. You should NEVER have an equal chance against a killer for the simple fact that you're part of a team, and the killer is the entire opposing team; if you were able to 1v1 the killer then there would be absolutely no point to them playing, since any one survivor can just take all the aggro while the rest repair and all escape.
Now since you want a specific answer about all your concerns regarding "unfair killers" I'll have to go one by one so bear with me here;
-Did they instant shot you from a distance? Then in my book they deserve a hit, but since BHVR are not afraid to give survivors a myriad of resources and opportunities to escape then force them to break the chain. Trees, loops, hell even teammates. If you get hit because you were out in the open, then at least there we can agree he deserves that hit even more.
-Stridor does not instantly pinpoint the location of a survivor. People think it just magically give you the location of survivors when it's actually a NECESSITY when a SINGLE survivor perk aka Iron Will counters her ENTIRE power. Stridor does not tell you what side of the pallet the survivor is on, if they slow vaulted or not, and it definitely does not make her impossible to trick.
-And finally, both as survivor and killer it is your job to scout and try to figure out the other team's perks. If you suspect he has I'm all ears, run away so that he doesn't have enough range to hit you. If you allowed them to get that close then you're getting hit; killers have to let go of gens or people and literally just accept it, because they can't get there to stop them in time or they know they have BT/DS/whatever. Killers are always told to suck it up and move on but survivors seem incredibly hypocritical towards their own advice.
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But you see so many complaining about spirit/deathslinger/pyramidhead yet nobody says anything about survivor perks other than DS. (which ironically isn't even the worst survivor perk)
Everyone having a free distance button with dead hard is why I don't use low tier killers anymore. People don't say anything because it's just accepted now that survivors have no counterplay. That needs to change.
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You can't have a debate. Like I said, you ran out of buzzwords to use and you literally become "kekw omegalul Scott come pls help"
You can't see traps that have been set before, they can't be heard across the map, there are STILL spots where traps become invisible or are hidden under certain textures yet to you it's not a problem because Trapper's "guesses" are weak as #########.
Killers have to guess all the time in this game. Mindgames are literally educated guesses, survivors have a third person view which allows them to cancel many tiles which killers just have to eat up because there's no way around them. You don't know how to change your playstyle and you don't want to because you want to loop your way endlessly through hordes and hordes of useless M1 killers and it shows so bad. You hate PH, you hate Spirit, you hate any killer that you can't loop and loop for 25 minutes effortlessly.
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What are most of the pallets in the game? what are the god pallets? what are most of the loops? only way your standard M1 killer gets a hit there is if the survivor makes a mistake lmao an M1 killer getting a hit on Ormond is a result of the survivor messing up and not the killer playing correctly.
Survivors control the chase. Add in all the stretched res users and it gets even worse.
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Lmao calm down
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You havent addressed anything about why Spirit having no counterplay is good for the game, you just started talking about Trapper for no discernible reason, even though they are completely different topics. Traps can be FOUND EASILY, you can check grass, you can check windows and pallets. You guess if spirit is phasing or not. They are 100% different.
also i tagged Scott since he posts offering to challenge people who feel Spirit has counterplay which you mentioned.
Try again next time :)
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Every killer kind of has a counter to certain Survivor perks. If they allow DS and BT off cages, then it proves the devs only care about pleasing crybaby survivors, because they make more money off of these SWF bully streamers.
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I wouldn't be adversed to killer changes provided they don't break the killer, which I can't count on BH to do. I can't say I am that experienced enough with PH to voice an opinion as I purchased he and Cheryl cause I am a huge Silent Hill fan but I do know the person you're attempting to debate with is a bad faith actor. I'd just ignore him going forward. I don't mind opposition or disagreements, but this guy seems to only be interested in riling people up or trolling.
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Not only did I tell you why, which I can gladly repeat because if you don't remember it's a 4v1 game. If every survivor has an equal chance to win a chase vs any killer then there might as well be 4 since there's absolutely no point to the game being asymmetrical at this point.
I started talking about Trapper to (hopefully) make you realise why your argument is incredibly hypocritical and deluded. You keep missing the point over and over again because you cannot "check grass, windows and pallets" while in a chase, otherwise you get caught. You guess if Spirit is phasing, and she guesses if you're moving or not, it really isn't that deep.
I don't need to entertain Scott or anyone else to give an argument. Does me saying she's in no way unfair make me the best survivor in the game? No right? Can we agree on that? Or do you wanna bring up some other excuse for why I'm "not addressing anything you've said?"
I don't need to try again next time cause you haven't contributed a single coherent argument to the whole discussion.
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Same! I actually commented on someone's idea to change Pyramid Head which I thought was very sensible and objective. I just find it funny how hypocritical some people on here can be. Think of it as a sociology experiment. I know I won't change this person's mind, but I'm still interested in why they're so blind to their own lackluster arguments when they're used against them.
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- Yes, its an asymmetrical game, yes it can still be balanced, these are not mutually exclusive. Take a killer like Nurse, she is the best killer in the game and can end chases extremely fast. The difference is, you can see and hear when she is about to blink and can try to avoid based on the knowledge of it coming. With Spirit, you GUESS if she is phasing or standing still. The only semi-consistent perk against her is Iron Will which is deleted by Stridor. Both Nurse and Spirit ignore survivor skill, but Nurse has feedback during the chase, Spirit does not.
- Trapper does not have any bearing. You use his traps as an example of not being able to check during a chase, but you can see if he places, you can generally tell if he is herding you into a trap, you can do plenty to avoid areas you know are unsafe. Where Trapper has to take time and setup traps (risk) Spirit is a weighted cointoss where she can stand still and phase depending on what you do.
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Delete Pyramid Head
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feel free to check my history, my views on Spirit have always remained the same, just like Deathslinger and PH. Killers who have free zoning or like Spirit who equate to a guessing game is not good game design and even if you "beat" a spirit, unless they are bad, you simply guessed correctly instead of outplaying them.
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- So chases have to be fair, thus long because otherwise people claim it's unfair and uncounterable. But gens can't be too slow either? What's this magical balance you talk about? Survivors have NO other objective and if only they weren't able to finish a game in 3 and a half minutes then maybe we would all agree that killers can be a little bit more forgiving and dynamic. With Nurse, you forget you can both see each other, the Nurse's advantage is her insane speed and being able to traverse through ANY obstacle in her way. The Spirit does not get this privilege, and neither of the two can see each other while she's phasing. If she's standing still why would you walk back to her in the first place? It's a fully 3D game, there's at least 2 other different directions you could head to to throw her off.
- If she's not phasing, she's a 110% killer. If she's phasing, she can't see you. You get a very very obvious warning when she's phasing in the vicinity, is it so difficult to be stealthy if you don't feel confident enough to tank a Spirit? I hate slugging but if I see an obsession in the match, I adapt and act accordingly. Once again, for some reason you bring up guesswork which apparently you seem to hate, but also claim to be very good at? How can you tell if a Trapper is herding you to a trap? How do you plan your route if you haven't seen him set a trap all game? Every second a Spirit stands still is one more second you can gain distance or confuse her. With how many safe tiles there are in the game it's really not that hard to get somewhere where you'll be able to react if you hear her footsteps, ESPECIALLY considering all the other points I already mentioned. If she phases to you, cooldown on her ability for you to run away, if she's walking she's a 110%, if she stands still and you're uninjured stop running. If she sees you and you're injured why didn't you heal instead of doing whatever you were doing?
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PH is fine as is. If they do anything, then they need to just add some cooldown to faking out his ranged attack.
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You shouldn't get to fake your power, have the survivor mind game you and still get a hit anyways, hello? It's bad enough theres no way to tell if you're about to use your power or just making a trail. So I cant even learn when you like to mind game me or not. His cages are fine. The lose/lose situation at every pallet and vault is obviously stupid.
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As long as they balance it it wont matter, the game is 100% killer favored as it is. The killer get SO many crutches to use.
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They took only 1 chapter to look at him, that seems very quick.
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So, you think Billy, who had tons of counterplay needed a nerf, but you think spirit and PH are fine?
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lol and what about when a killer mindgames a survivor, closes distance, survivor press E to get the distance back and gets the pallet anyway? hello?
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Yup. Spirit and Pyramid have downsides, they have time for survivors to recuperate. Hillbilly didn't have that.
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His killrates are probably through the roof, so will the new killer.
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Billy had downsides. He has a map-wide indicator that he is using his power and slows down when charging it.
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He could traverse the entire map freely, within seconds, and could just swing instadowns all game long. His pressure was insane.
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