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Another Pop Thread
This was created mainly because I thought my comment was too good to be lost in the depths of another thread. It was also created because all sorts of search features are broken, and I wouldn't be able to find this one later if it wasn't a discussion of my own.
(Edit:
POP GOES THE WEASEL:
All generator skill check needles move 20/35/50% faster. Each time a survivor fails a skill check on a generator that you've kicked at least once before in a match, a tremendously difficult skill check is triggered immediately after.)
Why Pop is BAd for the game:
20 seconds x 2 hooks maximum for a survivor without dying x 4 survivors = 160 additional seconds, or 2 more generators. That's without killing people. It's at least another half of a generator if two survivors die. That's not including gen regression because survivors don't want to let the killer Pop the same generator twice or just generator regression in general. Those seconds could very well mean the difference between all survivors dying and 3 or more getting out of the match alive.
It's the more hooks a killer gets, the more gens the killer gets and the less likely the killer will every be challenged by a group of survivors that doesn't tryhard on gens and only plays to enjoy the atmosphere. How does that kind of reward in this kind of ranking system make sense? If the community wants survivors to stop "genrushing", then perks like Pop need to not be a thing. How in the world are the devs supposed to balance their game by adding extra time to some survivor action when Pop exists?
Additionally, you speak like Overcharge isn't a perk you can use to trip up survivors who aren't paying attention, punishing survivors in a different way than Pop does. You also speak like Surveillance isn't a perk or that just in general a generator that has suddenly stopped regressing means a survivor is nearby.
Yes, it's true that kicking generators is not a reliable way for you to stop the progress of a survivor who is looping around a generator, but that's not what the mechanic is for, I should point out. It's to prevent survivors from bringing all gens to 99% before finishing the last one. It's to give killers some way of avoiding the frustrating scenario of running around, trying to find a survivor, when all the gens can be popped at one touch. Gen regression has grown to do a lot more than that, and I'm not sure that's such a good thing, especially since it moved from just forcing the game to move forward to actually impacting balance over the course of the match. There are good points about that, but I'm not sure the bad points are less influential.
Regardless, it's not solely a question of map sizes and gen speeds (sounds like you are regurgitating a number of streamers rn); it's a question of what survivors have to do in the match other than gens to ensure their survival.
If you think of the generator mechanic in its most simplest form, it is an advanced timer. It serves as the time the killer has to kill all survivors until they escape. A killer can elongate this timer by intimidating survivors into hiding, by forcing all survivors to abandon their objective to be altruistic, or through applying many injuries that either incapacitate survivors or require healing to reduce danger levels. All the interesting parts of the game revolve outside of the generator: chases, planning tactics on how to save other survivors, evading the killer, etc.
Giving the killer a way to directly add time onto that timer without actually proving him/herself to be smarter, wittier, and more brutal than the survivors is wrong. Getting hooks is something that just happens over the course of the game. When hooks don't happen, the survivors are stomping the killer, and in that case, extra time IS needed, but Pop doesn't do that. Pop only adds time to games where the killer already has the upper hand and doesn't need Pop to win. If survivors shorten the timer by being efficient (i.e. having chases where gens aren't, splitting up on separate generators, forcing hooks to happen where generators are already finished, etc.), again, Pop doesn't come into play. Pop only comes into play when a survivor isn't "genrushing" or try-harding, and so Pop inherently punishes survivors who are already being punished. It's the ultimate salt in the wounds for survivors facing any decent killer that knows how to pressure the map. You don't NEED Pop if you're doing well (and you shouldn't be pushing close matches over the edge into your favor just by bringing in one perk; that's stupid), and you CAN'T use Pop when you NEED its effects.
Old Ruin was a better designed perk than Pop if only because it made sure survivors were at the peak of their game but NOT directly related to pumping out generators; only on hitting skill checks. Yes, that affected gen speed, but in a different (and healthier) way than Pop does. The only issue with Ruin was the condition for the hex to be applied (which could have been solved through place-able totems or a percentage-based token system that gained tokens the more gens were done). It did not need a rework, and the developers didn't even solve the issue of a lack of optional survivor actions (because survivors can survive in some cases without using any pallets*). All that they did was move the brunt of dealing with the issue from one perk to the next.
SPOILER WARNING
The reason that this is in spoilers is to prevent it from coloring my post, but I want you to know that this is coming from a Rank 1 killer with over 2,000 hours in the game who didn't like using Hex: Ruin even though this killer started out as a Hag main and still doesn't like using any slowdown (or instadown**) perks that require no effort on my part. That means no: 1. Pop 2. Thanatophobia 3. Ruin 4. Corrupt Intervention 5. Thrilling Temors 6. NOED 7. Sloppy Butcher. I camp, slug, and patrol whenever necessary, and I will greed every single last survivor to their deaths. The perks that bug me when used by survivors (because I don't use "slowdown" perks) are Deliverance, Soul Guard, and Borrowed Time (because BT shouldn't use the Deep Wounds mechanic, and it's too often used for extremely aggressive plays instead of defensive ones). I used to use Knockout primarily on Huntress due to how her hatchets could put dying survivors into the injured state nowhere near me (survivors had less info to go off of where a dying survivor was) until the devs made Knockout unappealing and worthless imo (they shouldn't have touched Knockout). I also think additional hook offerings are underrated, usually get 2+ kills per game, and loved playing survivor until the more recent patches (which just make immersed fun NOT fun, and that's mainly due to slowdown perks and unusual killer hit detection along with sound design and survivors farming me off of hooks even in red ranks). So, please understand that I have significant experience in the world where Pop does not exist, and it feels pretty balanced to me when a killer uses every last thing at his/her disposal (this is an issue for another post because this one's too long already).
Didn't want to write this (but I did :/) because the posts already exist; I just can't access them.
(Edit: Hallelujah! The search function is fixed!)
P.S. if you think an additional two generators makes the game balanced, then you should not be advocating for Pop to stay as it is and instead be advocating for two more generators. Don't you want perk diversity??
*see: [searching (maybe making?) for post about early game survivor-pallet interaction. This will be edited later.]
** Devour Hope is an exception because it's too good to pass up. It's seen above 7% usage in all of my games this summer.
Edit #whatever (because some people don't believe there have been previous ones):
--
Kind_Lemon
An advocate of place-able totems, a priming-pallet interaction, and the removal of Exposed from tier 1 Devour Hope.
Also supports changes to how many survivors need to be present to start repairs on a generator.
#revertNurseaddons #reverttieroneDevour #reverttieroneBL #nofreechaseresources #placeabletotems #revertBillysounds #workwiththemusicyouhave
Comments
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"Another"? I have literally never seen a thread specifically discussing PGtW ever (since its buff over a year ago). Pretty sure most of us think Pop is fine as it is.
Besides it not like you can always capitalize on ever hook to kick gens. It just doesn't happen. If you hook someone before you use it its a wasted use, but it what needs to be done sometimes. Acting like the Killer just gets free Gen kicks with every hook is ludicrous. It provides pressure, and pressure is important.
Also: "Giving the killer a way to directly add time onto that timer without actually proving him/herself to be smarter, wittier, and more brutal than the survivors is wrong." Is hilarious. If you don't see anything wrong with this statement I don't even know what to tell you.
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I mean, yes, it implies that survivors are all of those things to a lesser degree (and don't get me wrong because survivors can sometimes be brutal), but that's not really the main point of the whole post (even though I do support taking things as hilarious lol).
And anyway, I can't exactly direct you to the numerous posts on Pop (similarly I can't direct you to the posts about changing the term Exposed to Vulnerable) because THE SEARCH FUNCTION IS BROKEN GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.
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Personally, I think pop is fine where it is. It's not like the killer is going to be able to use it at 100% efficiency all the time. A lot of what you wrote only talks about an absolutely optimal line up of circumstances where the killer can always go to a gen that can be popped for the most value without losing out on other opportunities. I think the only killer that can even use pop to somewhere close to that degree is Freddy but even he has to consider the cost of teleporting to a gen that might be far away from any survivors. U might have a better argument if a killer could control a match so that with optimal play they could use pop to that degree of efficiency but it's not something a killer can really control.
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Yeah the search function is borked af.
Yeah, sorry, I got lost in all the text when I was responding and couldn't really come up with more to respond with. I disagree that PGtW is responsible, or part of the cause, for Genrushing. It was brought in with the Clown and was barely considered good until the time it was active for was increased. Players begged for a buff so they could have something more than just Ruin to counter Genrush. It was a band-aid given to Killers to help with a major issue.
I agree though that it will need to be changed if something is done to alleviate the ability to just pump out gens in 5 minutes.
I disagree, however, that rewarding Killers for hooking (and that reward being extending the length of the trial even more) is a bad thing. Its effective and basic, but it works. Besides there isn't really anything that can be done about it with the current state of things.
I wouldn't say Old Ruin was better designed, since it was basically a blank perk slot 50% of the time, and the other 50% it slowed the game so much that it was core on basically all Killers.
I do agree though that they kind of shifted the weight of what perk handles genrush now. Though PGtW isn't used nearly as much as Ruin was and its easier to drop it for something else like new Ruin or something.
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yes, I focus on the extremes because that's what should be remedied. Pop's not eye-gouging-ly annoying when it's only used once or twice a match.
I want A. games that don't have the extremes of Pop and B. games that give more killers security in diversity of perks.
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You're wanting to nerf one of the most balanced perks in the game...
"Giving the killer a way to directly add time onto that timer without actually proving him/herself to be smarter, wittier, and more brutal than the survivors is wrong"
He did prove himself, by downing the survivors...
You act like Overcharge is a good perk, it's not. Are we playing rank 20 matches here?
You make it seem like the time saved from Pop is too much. What you should be asking is why is that much time saved on a perk necessary to compete against good survivors.
"who didn't like using Hex: Ruin even though this killer started out as a Hag main and still doesn't like using any slowdown (or instadown**) perks that require no effort on my part. That means no: 1. Pop 2. Thanatophobia 3. Ruin 4. Corrupt Intervention 5. Thrilling Temors 6. NOED 7. Sloppy Butcher. I camp, slug, and patrol whenever necessary, and I will greed every single last survivor to their deaths."
Most people would rather run some slow down perks rather than play in a way that completely ruins the fun for all the other players...
Not to mention many perks that you consider requiring no effort on the killers part actually do.
"Regardless, it's not solely a question of map sizes and gen speeds (sounds like you are regurgitating a number of streamers rn)"
Have you thought about why most the streamers think this? Maybe because it's true..just maybe.
This was a very fast response as there is just way, way too many things wrong in this post to try and unpack all of it and that would be exhausting.
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Okay. I read it all. My response.
- "It's the more hooks a killer gets, the more gens the killer gets and the less likely the killer will every be challenged by a group of survivors that doesn't tryhard on gens and only plays to enjoy the atmosphere." - This is just naive. Dead by Daylight isn't a game to just enjoy the atmosphere. It isn't that kind of game and never will be. It's an asymmetrical competitive multiplayer game that includes an atmosphere, not an atmospheric sandbox with a small threat on the side.
- You start off a paragraph with this, "Giving the killer a way to directly add time onto that timer without actually proving him/herself to be smarter, wittier, and more brutal than the survivors is wrong." Then you end that same paragraph with this, "and you CAN'T use Pop when you NEED its effects." I can't tell if you want this perk to be a reward for good killer play or to be a crutch for bad killer play. What do you want this perk to do? Also, this is a silly statement: "Getting hooks is something that just happens over the course of the game." If the number of hooks one gets isn't the general measure of skill, what is?
- It's cool that you camp and slug and that you wouldn't get much use out of Pop as a result, and I also use less slowdown and instadown than most (I often play a fairly benevolent killer), but as someone who has started to grow tired of dealing with Pop as a survivor constantly, it's much more exhausting to go up against someone who camps and slugs instead to make up for not using slow down perks. I'd rather be slowed down than disabled.
- I came into this thread being annoyed with Pop and thinking it needs some kind of change. I'm leaving this thread being more okay with how it works than I was before. I only think Pop is heavily overpowered in the hands of Freddy, especially one with BBQ or probably Tinkerer, and that it needs some kind of change to make it less oppressive when he uses it.
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"Old Ruin better designed than Pop", lol this has to be some elaborate joke.
Pop is fine.
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Pop is fine, no changes needed. is working as intended because it also rewards killers for doing their objective despite Decisive, unbrekable and borrow time for example... wich are just there to give survivors as many chances as possible for them to escape.
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And what, pray tell, was so badly designed about old Ruin that made it worse than Pop? As a survivor, I sincerely enjoyed Ruin over Pop. I missed skill checks here and there, yes, but it all felt like my own fault for A. not looking for the totem and B. missing great skill checks. All Ruin did was raise the mechanical skill ceiling for playing survivor efficiently while lowering the reward skilled players would get from hitting great skill checks. Pop, on the other hand, is a flat out increase in time I have no control over than to sit on generators and never let go of M1 until the generator's done.
And "Pop is fine" only works as a statement if you're okay with the fact that survivors can get generators done at light speed if they all decide to be incredibly efficient. Since I don't think that's okay, I don't think Pop is fine.
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bloodpoint-wise, yes. Gameplay-wise? Not unless the killer is doing well despite overcoming some sort of added restriction on his/her ability to do well (Devour Hope is a great example of that). Pop rewards the killer not for doing anything additional but for just simply playing the game. Not to mention, killers who aren't "doing really well" can still manage to add an additional generator to the time required to escape simply by "tunneling" one survivor to death and hooking one other survivor after that.
Pop's "reward" shouldn't even be thought about that way. The hooking requirement just serves as some way for the devs to justifiably (and poorly) tie the perk's effects into the game. It's "Pop is always active unless the killer hasn't hooked anyone in a while". And since any killer at higher ranks is going to get at minimum one or two hooks per match, Pop will always be of some use.
I'm going back to your "doing really well" point one last time. If a killer is against a survivor group that is tough, and the killer manages to do well, Pop will not be used to max usefulness (or maybe not even at all!). In that case, the killer gets a minor (or no reward if he only hooks everyone after all the generators are done) for doing well against tough opponents. If a killer is against a group of survivors that are less skilled, then the survivors are going to see the entire effects of Pop (2.5 more gens) when the killer goes for a 12 hook game because the survivors are easy enough to defeat. In that case, the killer (who arguably isn't doing "really well") gets a disproportionate reward in comparison with his/her skill when contrasted against the opponents' skill. In the case that both parties are evenly matched, Pop can single-handedly win games by just adding on more gens without requiring the killer to do anything extra.
The previous paragraph is the explanation to why Pop is unnecessary (salt in the wound) when killers are doing well and doesn't come into play when it is necessary against better opponents.
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First off, interesting post even if I disagree.
“You don’t need Pop if you’re doing well.”
That’s somewhat true. However you don’t need most perks in a game that you’re doing well in. No player can just say, “I’m going to do well in this next game. I don’t need gen regression.”
To make changes to a game you should first look at how the game will go with optimal play. With this it’s easier because you don’t need to be some godly player, you just need to learn a very simple advanced tactic: split pressure.
Let’s take a look at this timer on both sides and what can affect it while taking split pressure into consideration.
80 seconds per generator if you’re alone on a gen, which is ideal because the more gens being worked on at once, the less of a chance the killer has to win. This is the optimal strategy to win. There is no killer that can counter that. So, if a killer gets a team that consistently works on two or three different generators at once and they’re playing optimally by downing the survivors once every thirty seconds, each chase is allowing almost half of a generator to be complete.
Add whatever gen speed you want in that: stake out, toolboxes, resilience, etc.
Consider that each survivor has three lives is we consider hook stages to be lives.
Add travel time from downing these survivors to hooking them.
That usually adds 5+ seconds to that chase time. That’s 35 seconds.
Now the killer goes to kick a gen without Pop. That gen regresses at .25 charges per second.
In this fairly common scenario there is already another gen almost, if not already completed off of one hook.
You could argue this hook allows the killer to pressure harder, which is true. However, the timer is in the survivor’s hands. If they play well and someone stays on the generators that timer goes down really quickly.
As far as the argument gen progression is fast but not fast enough to need Pop, let’s look at Clown.
In the current meta he’s D tier, but before gens went this quickly -pre nerf Ruin- he was toward the top of A tier.
So no, Pop doesn’t need to be changed when all that’s keeping what was a top tier killer in the lowest bracket in many tier lists is the gen speed.
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Pop OP, pls nerf
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1. Ah, I'm saying the atmosphere comes from the threat, not that the threat is on the side. If there was no killer, it would be an incredibly *****y experience because the game is ugly and lacks innovative sound design (no offense, sound team). I do play survivor for more than the chase, however, and occasionally things will happen that make me go "do I play this game too much to know that this stealth Pig would come over to this spot at the map at this exact time?". Most of the newer killers I don't find that much fun to play against if only because their powers have been mutilated and formed to be good at starting chases (and/or defeating stealth and/or injuring a lot of people without significant killer-survivor interaction). I'd much rather get downed/hooked twice and die than get downed and hooked three times and die.
2. I'm saying that the perk is bad because it either is overkill and rewards the killer for not doing anything special or can't be used in a case where the killer actually needs the help. I'm also saying that it ISN'T a perk rewarding good killer play and it ISN'T a perk that is a clutch save (like Unbreakable). It's neither, and I don't necessarily want it to be one or the other (both have merits). I just want it to NOT function the way it does now.
If a killer is against a survivor group that is tough, and the killer manages to do well, Pop will not be used to max usefulness (or maybe not even at all!). In that case, the killer gets a minor (or no reward if he only hooks everyone after all the generators are done) for doing well against tough opponents. If a killer is against a group of survivors that are less skilled, then the survivors are going to see the entire effects of Pop (2.5 more gens) when the killer goes for a 12 hook game because the survivors are easy enough to defeat. In that case, the killer (who arguably isn't doing "really well") gets a disproportionate reward in comparison with his/her skill when contrasted against the opponents' skill. In the case that both parties are evenly matched, Pop can single-handedly win games by just adding on more gens without requiring the killer to do anything extra.
The previous paragraph is the explanation to why Pop is unnecessary (salt in the wound) when killers are doing well and doesn't come into play when it is necessary against better opponents.
If this perk were to reward killers for proving themselves beyond just what would happen in the normal course of the match (because, yes, getting hooks "just happens" oftentimes. No killer goes into a game expecting no hooks, and 12 hooks just means that you and the survivors were matched incorrectly not that you did anything particularly special), then I would say that Pop would be a well designed perk. Gaining a benefit in one area by making things a little bit harder for yourself in another sounds like good balance (eg. Devour Hope).
I would definitely say that the frequency of hits and/or downs is a much better indicator of killer skill than the amount of hooks, objectively speaking.
3. My view is probably pretty unpopular as a survivor, but I would much prefer being slugged or being otherwise incapacitated against killers than being 12 hooked or slowed down immensely by perks and add-ons (I HATE 12 hook games as a survivor. All that it means is that I'm no match for the killer and should have died earlier; there's no room for hope or thinking, "I deserved this escape" if I do escape). All of my most fun games as survivor have been against a killer that has incapacitated the other survivors and left me to think of a plan to evade the killer and rescue them all (or I'm one of the slugged survivors and someone else has to do it). It's a question of "More choices and planning" or "Just be brainless and sit longer on actions", at least to me.
Here's a video of me as killer from the survivor's perspective (yes, I'm the chainsaw crazy Bubba with really high sensitivity. It's a little embarrassing, but I think it shows some of what I'm talking about here):
4. That's cool. I'm not here to tell you your opinion. I'm here just to provide arguments and reasoning (and hopefully a good cause for changing the perk because Pop Freddy is ...ugh). I would love to be convinced that Pop's okay, but nothing's persuaded me that it is so far.
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Ah, this:
"So no, Pop doesn’t need to be changed when all that’s keeping what was a top tier killer in the lowest bracket in many tier lists is the gen speed."
Yes, the latter statement about Pop is often very true. The only difference between us is that I think Pop should be changed at the same time as the addition of some other match-lengthening mechanic cough un-tethering pallets cough and you think Pop should only be changed after everything's been settled.
--
Kind_Lemon
An advocate of place-able totems, a priming-pallet interaction, and the removal of Exposed from tier 1 Devour Hope.
Also supports changes to how many survivors need to be present to start repairs on a generator.
#revertNurseaddons #reverttieroneDevour #reverttieroneBL #nofreechaseresources #placeabletotems #revertBillysounds #workwiththemusicyouhave
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You are indeed a very rare survivor if you prefer the kinds of situations you described in point 3. I couldn't feel more the opposite.
Anyway, I think the next step for you would be to describe what you want Pop changed to. This is all hard to follow when you're only saying what you don't want and what you think it is, rather than saying what you want and what you think it should be.
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I guess you do have a point about proposing solutions, because most people are more easily convinced when there is a concrete solution supplementing arguments and explanations.
But yes, I do prefer playing that way, and this typically means that I don't enjoy the majority of my games as survivor rn.
To possibly give a little more about myself as a survivor, two of the best experiences I've had in Dbd (there are others I'm leaving out for the sake of distinction between events) are as follows:
- A survivor game in green ranks against a Nurse who killed two players early on and left me and a Dwight left. We managed to combine extreme stealth, tense chases, multiple hook states, one unbreakable (Dwight), and one kobe (me?) to complete all the gens and almost powered one exit gate (before EGC, bless that time) before the Nurse downed me (don't remember what happened to Dwight, but he didn't get hatch or exit gates, sooo). It was a blast. There was extreme tension, the Nurse was not a baby but also not a death machine, and everyone agreed afterward that it had been a great experience, The Nurse included.
- A three survivor game against a Pig on Suffocation Pit, where I somehow gained a sixth sense due to map awareness and deftly evaded the Pig's approach at one crucial point without anything going on in the game to alert me of her presence (I guess I was just guessing how fast she could move between gens and how long she would take to come back to the generator I was working on?). Regardless, there was stealth, intense chases, and game sense that eventually allowed me to secure the hatch. The Pig was somewhat bewildered, and I wasn't exactly happy about the hatch escape (I would have preferred to finish the gens), but I was pleased overall.
I really enjoyed playing against old Nurse and Hillbilly (before Infectious Fright was introduced :/) because it meant that I had to be at the top of my game or die. Now, Hillbilly is a clown on wheels-- a laughing fest, if you will-- and Nurses either don't cut it or don't exist.
What I would most prefer is that Pop just not exist, but THAT'S not going to happen, so I would advocate for:
Pop goes the weasel:
All generator skill check needles move 50% faster. Each time a survivor fails a skill check on a generator that you've kicked at least once before in a match, a tremendously difficult skill check is triggered immediately after.
I'll add the above to the main post.
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I’m pretty sure almost everyone agrees pop is fine as it rewards good gameplay if it became a problem for you try to last longer in a chase
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Since when is hooking a survivor a good play?
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....I was going to say something about "good gameplay" and "almost everyone agrees" (and have you asked WHY or even IF they do or if they just accept it unquestioningly?), but then I realized the latter half of your sentence makes no sense, mainly because it isn't a sentence.
So....what are you trying to say?
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If a killer is using pop so much you can’t do gens, then last longer then 10 seconds in a chase. Also don’t be doing the same gen, spread out and pop should not be a problem.
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This is not another pop thread.
This is another bad excuse to nerf one of the more balanced perks.
Also, I've never seen another thread about pop.
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I see... so, you are assuming survivors are just pounding gens while someone's getting chased and the reason Pop is getting used so much is because the survivors aren't trying to meta-game the video game? Sounds like something I addressed in that wall of text that I call the OP...
But regardless, survivors in my games aren't going down like flies. Survivors are going down at a reasonable rate, but most survivors in my games don't enjoy just sitting on generators whenever they can even when no one's being chased (a shocker for you, probably!), and not one of the survivors gets mad at the others in post-game chat over that reason. It's that when a survivor does get hooked, regardless of how everyone had done the generators stealthily even while the killer was searching in the area, all of that progress and time eked out little by little is gone in a single kick, repeated over and over in the match, mainly because the survivors around me don't like ending matches in seconds flat.
I should point out that your suggestion is to "genrush". Doesn't that seem like an issue? The only way to avoid the use of a perk meant to stop generator progression is to complete generators as efficiently as possible? Sounds like it wouldn't affect games where survivors ARE "genrushing" and would affect games where survivors AREN'T "genrushing". This atrocious design is what I point out in my OP.
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Lol I can't type
But I don't think simply hooking a survivor warrants the ability to slow down the game that much. It's something anyone can do without much thought. I don't consider something as simple as hooking a survivor a "Good play." But when I say that, I mean in terms of y'know, is it impressive? Which it's not. Sure it benefits you, but it's nothing fancy. This should sound obvious, and if it does then good. I'm just telling you how I interpreted your comment.
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They exist. I'm still having some issues with the search function, but I'm pretty sure there was another one around the same time as that one that had basically the same name as this thread (why I named this discussion the name it has).
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So you don’t like pop because you don’t wanna do gens? What?
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Firstly, wat?
And secondly, you like holding M1 for significantly more time than is possibly balanced?
And thirdly, that's not my point. It's not that I "don't like Pop"; it's that Pop is unbalanced and should not be considered fine just because the rest of the game is unbalanced when it comes to how fast survivors can do gens unimpeded.
The TLDR for the post (because it seems like you need it) is: Pop is overkill against a group of survivors who are at or slightly below the killer's skill level and doesn't affect survivors that are max efficiency on generators; the opposite of its intended effect. Pop also requires minimum effort to use, and so it's an "add two more gens" perk for free (because the devs can't figure out how to balance their core game it appears) in any match where the survivors aren't aiming to finish all the generators in seconds.
It's like Botany Knowledge but it affects generators and is more powerful and is with an activation requirement. Botany Knowledge isn't on my list of perks to address because it's a small fish, and small fish aren't an issue. Pop is a big fish.
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Pop doesn't care about how you got the hook. Only that you got it. And lots of hooks come easily.
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Agree with your ultimate take on Pop, I think it is just too impactful on the game, to the point I refuse to run it, it's pretty unfun and unfair IMO. And if nerfs to base survivor which impact gen times are implented, it'll become actually overpowered for sure - currently still easily the best killer perk, too impactful, too easy to get for how good it is. Would be happy to see it nerfed (and I am a killer main btw, apparently discussing nerfs for killer related things gets you called a survivor main in my experience)
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I was planning to argue against you until I saw the last sentence. You allowed me to be blinded by the idea of staying on topic before delivering this point to drive your argument home.
Good job, I have no further things to say to you.
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In all honesty I'd be fine if they shaved 5% off pop and added it to regular gen kicks. Pop and Ruin are great because they reliably slow the game down. Kicking a generator without those perks does diddly squat to the gens. Infact they do so little that a survivor immediately tapping the generator will pretty much negate whatever progress is lost making you waste the 2 seconds it took to kick it in the first place. So reworking the normal kick into it being slightly strong or making the default progress regress a bit faster would be nice. But I think other perks like Surge and Overcharge should be looked at to make them more attractive choices as well. The basic attack requirement for it should be gone, there's no reason that it's to be needed and for overcharge, well I'm not sure what could be done to make it better.
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I guess you have taken enough time to find another thread like this with the intention of not making a fool of yourself.
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I'm going to pop in on this back-and-forth and say that Devour Hope has special requirements around hooking that cause the killer to adopt a playstyle that can't as easily capitalize on survivors going for hook saves. It wouldn't be unreasonable to ask for Pop to have a hooking requirement that needed a different survivor each time to be hooked (similar to BBQ, but repeated).
Additionally, using whataboutism (i.e. What about badly designed survivor perks?) is a surefire way to not prove your point, if that was your goal. If your goal was to be contrary, then congrats! You've done it! However, this is a post specifically made discussing Pop's problems and potential solutions, and there are plenty of other posts out there about the issues of DS, Unbreakable, Soul Guard, etc. I would link you to one, but that would require extra effort :/
I don't mean to be confrontational, but whenever I see whataboutism, I feel like I should say something.
Edit: and feel free to think I'm wrong
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It takes 20 seconds off a gen. A Dead Hard for distance will possibly add that onto a chase and that can activate 12 times per game too.
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Yes, it can add two entire, additional generators before anyone is dead. Dead Hard can make chases last significantly longer, too.
Both have issues, and this post is about the issues of Pop. As you can see, it's very long. Adding Dead Hard to the post would be a nightmare. So, it's not included. Additionally, Dead Hard would need to be brought in by all four players, have them be injured without an instadown or an exhaustion hatchet, and have more than one hook until death. It takes a little more to get 12 Dead Hards to significantly extend a chase than it does to get Pop to significantly extend gen time.
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you want my honest opinion?
I'm fine with the perk, I just disagree with you.
Pop simply rewards you for hooking a survivor, whether you worked hard for that hook or not doesn't matter.
It's balanced in some scenarios, and less so in others.
Depends on factors like the killer you're playing, surv skill, chase times, etc...
Can we at least agree that neither of our arguments are right 100% of the time?
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Sometimes the killer will be so caught up they dont use pop, sometimes the nearby gens are already regressing, sometimes you hit a gen that doesnt have even 25% progress on it. Its not guarenteed that you’re always going to get the full value of Pop
Theres a lot of perks that give or take time on either side.
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Sure. My argument is that Pop is the worst offender and requires as little deviation from any playstyle to use. BBQ affects your behavior after hooks. Dead Hard makes survivors play differently (specifically, more aggressively). Unbreakable causes dying survivors to think differently about their next moves. Pop...just works unless you decide to not use it or if you're doing too well to use it (eg. no significant progress on any gens).
Regardless, this thread is about Pop, and saying that there are other problems doesn't really add all that much to the thread.
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You really should read a comment before you reply to it.
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Your idea for a perk rework probably isn't good if monstrous shrine has a more powerful effect.
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Pop is a strong perk that rewards killers for winning chases and hooking as opposed to slugging. It also incentives leaving the hook to go kick a far off genny.
The best counter to pop is to spread out and work on different gennys, as is often the best counter to many killer plays/tactics in the game.
Chances are if the killer is getting a lot of hooks, you are losing anyway. If he gets just a couple, pop won't be very effective.
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Ok so I'm mostly a killer main but I do play some survivor. I don't personally have a problem with it because as some people in here have said. Pop is a reward for hooking. Hooking can be hard and if you don't get your first hook before 2 gens pop you probably are going to lose unless you can snowball into massive pressure. I don't see why you think it's such a problem when on the survivor side. Good plays aren't measured by skill but by the amount of second chance perks. You can call it "whataboutism" all you want, but you know it to be true. Getting hit and then being able to dead hard takes no skill at all. Being able to 99% sprint burst isn't hard at all. It's the looping portion that is most important. If your a godlike looper then pop will never ever take effect on you. If all your friends have some sort of brain they will spread out and do gens separately to make pops significantly harder to decide on. All in all, I disagree with you and am perfectly open to having a discussion either on here, or on discord through voice chat. GokuBlack#2449.
This goes for anyone that wants to have some really good discussions about DBD in general.
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I....I'm sorry, but do you have the wrong thread?
To your latter two paragraphs, those are my exact points. It's terrible designed because it works just like you've stated. It encourages "genrushing" and it doesn't affect survivors who aren't meta gamers and instead affects survivors who would otherwise (without Pop) give the killer a closer game.
To your first paragraph, I will reiterate that the kind of gameplay you say happens with Pop happens normally regardless. There is no downside to Pop (free extra gens!) unless there is a group of survivors who are part of the problem of maximum gen efficiency (against whom Pop should be effective).
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It still doesn't add two gens to the game, because the killer has to actually kick the gen 6 times for its effect, and the killer wouldn't know what gen to kick first, unless they have a perk like thrilling tremors or BBQ.
Pop patches the gen times in this game that are too fast, so a nerf to pop HAS to come out at the same time as the gen speed nerf, or a secondary objective.
Let's say behaviour removed sound entirely for killers, and there was a perk that gave the killers sound. All killers would run that perk, does that mean it's op, because the devs refuse to give killers sound?
No, it just patches a core issue of the game that needs to be addressed.
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Hey you can go ahead and delete Pop now that I got my Ruin/Undying
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Me personally, I would rather have the 25% regression. It is useful in games that you are battling to protect the last few gennys.
I appreciate your suggestion. But skill check speed will be quickly adapted to. And it would require you to run all over kick gennys, losing time you could be chasing.
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"Requires as little deviation from any playstyle to use" And whats so "offending" about that? What is wrong about a perk that can be used easily in many situations? If thats really your metric for "bad perks" you can rule out half of all perks, if not even more. On top of that, I think the claim is not even true. You certainly have to play differently when you have Pop equipped. No hitting gens before hooking, for example. Searching for a gen to apply it to instead of directly contesting the remaining survivors. Abandoning a chase to kick a gen. If you just play as normal, the perk likely does not have much effect. If you actually play it wrong, e.g. abandoning important gens just to kick some gen on the edge of the level with 5% work done, it can be actrually detrimental to you.
And I still don't understand how you can say pop is granting to much for little effort. Tell that to a low tier killer struggling hard to get any downs. Getting hooks is not always easy, so its not always little effort, and you won't get much use out of pop in this occasions. Furthermore, even if you hook frequently ("little effort"!), chances are you simply cannot use the pop, bc all reachable gens are already regressing.
Pop is one of the few perks which actually reward the killer for performing well, and denies them any usage if he does not. There are many, many other perks which "just work", the very thing you proclaimed as problematic about pop. Or maybe I understood you wrong ...
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So not only has the killer to down someone he also has to reach a gen to regress 20sec of 1/4 of team survivor. If this is a problem then i wonder how you would think about sabotage or ds removing the entire progress of team killer in the last 30-50sec....
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I have problems with those too, it's just that when survivors try to use those perks against me, it usually never works out and everyone ends up slugged....
Post edited by Kind_Lemon on0 -
I don't think I can respond super objectively to your first comment, mainly because it's your opinion, so I'll focus on the latter part for now.
The reason my suggestion is the way it is is because the devs have stated that they like introducing perks that have "synergy" with other perks (for w/e reason, but okay). I would see use in situations where Hex: Lullaby is at 3+ stacks, giving survivors even less time to react and prepare for a the faster needle. And the idea would be that a killer would isolate problem gens first and then go out of his/her way maybe once or twice to trigger Pop on those gens, giving up chase efficiency at one point in the match to make generator completion harder as the game progresses (i.e. the killer has to make a tradeoff at least once in the match unlike much Pop use currently. This warrants a potentially powerful effect (eg. Overcharge + Pop could trigger skill checks continually until the survivor hits it or lets go of the generator to purposefully miss one and stop another skill check from appearing.)
If nothing else, I want to see this in a PTB. Testing would really be the only way to tell how it affects matches.
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