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It feels like the developers are completely out of touch about what happens in the game
Now let me say first off that i don't think that stuff should be nerfed or buffed just because a vocal minority says so.
What i do think is that all the balancing that has been done so far and is still going on on the PTB is stuff aimed at people between the ranks of 13-6.
You guys have the ''fog whisperers'' and some of those are extremely knowledgeable players that play both survivor and killer and have some very fair complaints and criticism.
I'm not saying killer or survivor is the strongest right now because both suffer from pretty bad balancing depending on the situation.
For example:
-DS and BT are one of the if not the most used perk right now, they didn't get balanced for almost half a year now
-Some killers (let's use spirit as an example) are way stronger than every other killer due to their mobility or impossible mind games for the survivors
-Some killers barely see the light of day and fairly so because they are just way weaker than average (example, pig, legion and deathslinger). when they do get picked it's mostly for the enjoyment of their abilities and not because of their viability
-In my personal opinion i also believe that gen speed is a bit too fast and that opinion does get shared by some other more experienced players than me.
These are just some of the biggest points that i can think of right now but my point is that these are issues that are clear as day and are also very common complaints from both sides so this all boils down to 1 question i have.
Are the people that do the balancing really that disconnected from the state of the game because they have a group of very smart fog whisperers from which i'm sure they can get some proper feedback if asked.
The reason i made a post like this is because i enjoy the game a lot and play it daily without exception and i hate to see it like this.
Comments
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They're not out of touch, they know far too well what happens in their game. Still, that doesn't mean they're going to make changes according to that. To the contrary, I think the last three years have made it pretty clear that if they have to choose, they'll always prioritise the side that buys more cosmetic garbage/wig subscriptions (aka, survivors).
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You're ignoring the fact that this game used to be overwhelmingly survivor sided and now it's much more balanced. As of the latest numbers we have the game was actually killer sided.
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You're the one ignoring facts. The devs' stats are famously meaningless.
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I actually think Perks and Killers vary in power similar to a difficulty level. Granted, Nurse and Spirit in the right hands is a nightmare to face, especially compared to Legion.
However, with practice Legion can be lethal. Takes time to learn, but any Killer can be monstrous! If all Killers were balanced equal, there is no difficulty to compete against.
I like how some Killers are weaker than offers, because when you 4K with a weak Wraith build, you know you're good.
Accept the challenge and see how well you can do.
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Why are their stats meaningless? Because you/your favorite streamer/vocal people on the forum aren't winning as much as the percentages say?
Are you going to deny that this game used to be insanely survivor sided? Doesn't fit the narrative of only catering to survivor over the past few years, but are we going to ignore that there were double-pallet loops and massively increased pallet counts, larger maps, literal infinite loops, much faster heal times, etc. You could recover exhaustion while sprinting. DS was always active, not just within 60 seconds... you get the idea
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Thats why you just got 2 great perk buffs and just last patch you got a perk that makes ruin god tier.
Stop the victim complex, its pathetic.
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Peanits agreed months ago that hopping on a generator in the killer's face with DS active is complete BS, so I was surprised they didn't change that at all. It probably is about cash. BHVR does nothing about racist, homophobic trash talking SWFs because they buy up pink hair cosmetics hand over fist
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lmao. They nerfed a harmless perk for no reason and removed a debuff from another pathetic perk that barely sees any use as is in exchange for a (guaranteed to be) negligible qol change. I'd hardly call those things buffs.
Furthermore, they made Pyramid Head even more of a laughing stock than what he already is.
They're meaningless because, first of all, hook suicides are counted as deaths. Second, both the Depip Squad experiment and the most recent tournament hosted by that famous streamer whose name I can't remember, completely contradict those laughable stats.
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they reworked maps to be smaller and to get rid of infinites some patches ago, nerfed gen skillchecks and speed when working together, (while also working on space between tiles), the house of pain and preschool buildings were nerfed, tons of killer perks have been reworked to be better. Just because some problems like ds are getting ignored doesn't mean that the game isn't getting better with basically every patch (and of course there are some exceptions). One thing is saying DS is broken it needs to be nerfed (ok, fair), another is DeVs baLaNcE For tHe Side ThAT bUys #########. Not to mention a lot of killers are getting reworked to be viable (look at doctor, who used to be #########).
Geez.
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Placebo changes at best. Again, the lst torunament hosted by that famous streamer whose name I can't remember proved once and for all that the game is essentially no different than when the Depip Squad experiment took place.
Post edited by Acromio on4 -
They contradict BHVRs overall stats because in the lower and medium skill brackets survivors get slaughtered left and right.
I´m sure mostly everyone with enough experience in DBD will agree that the balance shifts more in favor of the Survivors the higher the players skill becomes. This is why in competetive play you will hardly ever see an "M1 Killer". Those just don´t have the tools to combat strong loopers efficiently enough.
In my optionion the DEVs are caught between a rock and a hard place. If Survivors were nerfed too hard across the board it would get even worse for the majority of players. If they don´t, the dedicated killer playerbase will continue to suffer in the high ranks.
Maybe if they one day finally manage to implement a working MMR system we can chill on that topic a bit more. The sweat squads will get an adequate challenge by facing great Nurses and Spirits back to back while the rest of the playerbase can have their relatively balanced game.
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Ok, so maybe this patch isn't addressing exactly what you want. That doesn't make it a bad patch. I honestly can't say any of the things they changed didn't need it.
PH was way too good at putting Survivors into no win situations, but his power was kind of too risky outside of that. It appears that they are making it harder to do that but making PotD more generally useful. He's been a hot topic on the forums for quite a while and this... tentatively sounds like a good change for him.
Trail of Torment, Forced Penance, Blood Pact, Any Means Necessary, Cruel Limits, Mindbreaker, Slippery Meat, and We're Gonna Live Forever all definitely needed buffs. They aren't the only ones by any means... but they probably can't buff every perk that needs something in one go. Honestly they hit a LOT of the perks that commonly show up on those "Worst Perks" threads that happen every so often.
For Thana and Technician, I can definitely see why they would want to rework them and think their changes have a good shot at making the perks better overall.
For the People should have released with a score event, but better late than never.
The timer on Pop was honestly way too forgiving. Its not like that'll make the perk non functional or even push it to not be either the best or second best regression perk vs Ruin + Undying.
The fact that not all perks maxed out at the same rarity did in fact make it annoying to find stuff sometimes. Standardizing that is a good thing, even if it does make things a little more expensive BP wise.
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1) Every tournament has its own particular set of rules and win conditions. You cannot draw any meaningful conclusions about the state of the core game from tournaments where certain perks, add-ons, maps, killers, and even play styles are banned.
2) Hook suicides usually happen in games where the killer is on the way to a 4k anyway, and are usually done because the survivor sees they have no real chance of coming back. Plus kill rates were ~70% at red ranks as of the last stats drop, and I believe the devs have stated that 50% is the balance target. Hook suicides are not the difference between 50% and 70%.
Edit: Also, talk to me about the depip squad once MMR is working. It's not a surprise if the top fraction of a percent of survivors can regularly beat red rank killers. Once god squads are regularly matched with god-tier killers, then we'll have a better sense for the balance at the highest levels of gameplay (and even then, that would not necessarily translate to lower skill settings; we'd have to see). As is this shows actually nothing, though.
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I know that they want to focus on balancing per patch but i honestly do not believe that PH was the one they should have taken first, yes he is on the strong side but he is one of the only killers that can actually pose a decent threat to good survivors without being utterly broken (spirit hag and nurse) because the broken ones can just ignore pallets and vaults like no other.
And it's not about them adressing exactly what i want it's them adressing unbalanced aspects that have been common and known for such a long time now and has been voiced by countless community members. trust me i have some very specific balancing that i personally would want but this is not it.
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"latest numbers"
Lmfao. You mean the kill rates which are completely unreliable because it counted dcs and no conditions were given?
There was never a point in this game where survivors are weaker and If you say that this game is killer sided rn then just look at red ranks.
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In time guys, in time. They can’t change every perk in one patch, I’m pretty sure they said every Mid Chapter Perks will be looked at. Be patience.
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Would you prefer comprehensive numbers that include DCs, afk depipping Wraiths, hatch escapes in games where survivors didn't finish a single gen, moris, hook suicides, iri head/infantry belt, etc., or anecdotes? I'm not saying the kill rate has to be 50% in order for the game to be balanced and anything more or less than means it favors one side or another. Still 70% is an extremely high kill rate in a game where the EGC exists. It's worth considering that many DCs and hook suicides occur in games where the killer is ahead anyway. I don't think there's any chance that just removing matches with those would drop the kill rate under 50%.
Edit: "Just look at red ranks"
Kill rates were higher at red rank as of the most recent stats drop. You might not like that matches with DCs are included, but the same sorts of matches are included in the overall and red rank totals. Unless you think highly-skilled players are also disproportionately likely to throw matches, maybe red rank isn't as survivor sided as you think.
I'm curious what your justification is for the game never having been killer sided. I don't think there's any actual evidence of that, but we do have evidence to the contrary.
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1) For the most part this is true since strange metas developed in Hexy's latest one due to how their scoring was done - lots of face camping to eliminate someone out of the match asap with survivor scoring being more integral for the win for that particular team since both roles were played by each team.
2) Anecdotally I would say this just isn't true... see plenty of instant disconnects and suicide on first hooks in solo queue on VERY winnable games usually because the first survivor chased gets downed "too fast" and the killer isn't a pepega to fall for super common techs (Oh wow the killer turned around and didn't get window teched at shack! Then.. then he baited out my Dead Hard by looking up at the sky!!). This is watching it as a survivor with Bonds or being on the killer side that I can basically picture their rage (also rescuing one of these individuals during their attempts to suicide on hook just makes them rush the killer hoping to die asap).
On a final note: I will agree that across the board the level of most players (survivors) are fairly low even at Red Ranks so I can see where high kill numbers coming out. My personal tracker from September 9th to September 24th at R1 reflects more "wins" in my book since the Hatch Escapes are 3 Kills + 1 person hatching out so that rests somewhere in that 70% range you're talking about
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I agree that you'll sometimes see those DCs and hook suicides after a terrible first chase, but that's still a rarity, especially if we're trying to say that this is more than a small factor in why kill rates are supposedly inflated.
It's interesting to see your data on it, and it definitely looks like it ties out well with the most current averages we have. I'm always wary of going off of anecdotal evidence, especially since after what I've noticed since Crossplay has gone live. I feel like I'm surviving a lot more as survivor now and also killing a lot more as killer, probably because rank-based matchmaking is just less sufficient when matching people of different platforms. I'm red rank for both, but it feels like I've just been getting matched with less skilled players on average since Crossplay has been on.
Edit: Also, 84 keys in 217 games? That's absurdly high! Not sure what's up with that.
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Honestly I think what happened was they just recently hit a point where they felt they had enough data to take a shot at addressing issues with the Silent Hill DLC and wanted to address all of them at the same time. Hence PH, and all of the kind of meh perks of his and Cheryl getting changed. They seem to like taking a shot at a set of things that are logically connected... which I can understand. They did a similar thing with last mid chapter patch where they addressed the chain saw bros.
Then after they finished the SH stuff... they had some extra time so they took a shot at a handful of the perks that... pretty much everyone agrees are bad.
Did Spirit or DS/UB or whatever else need addressed first? Maybe... but maybe they just haven't figured out what exactly is the best course of action on those things yet, but they did have good ideas for the SH stuff so they went with that.
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but thats a tournament, the best of the best tryharding to win, the tournament doesn't represent the other 99% of the game's population. Is the game balanced in the top tier of players in comms? no. If you are rank one are you going against those teams every game? no. Is the game completely balanced? no. But saying that nothing is getting done to improve it and that the devs love the survivors and thats why the game is survivor sided is wrong.
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It gets even better when you remember survivors weren't allowed to use full meta builds and only 2 of each perk were allowed. We didnt even get to see a 4 man meta build squad. Also a few killers even had an easier time due to the DS bug.
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I would say it's a mixture. From the comments on Clown from the head of balance, I can safely say that the people making design choices often have no experience or idea how specific parts of the game experience feel for the majority of players invested in playing. However, I can also safely say that on the occasions that the devs know exactly what is going on, they choose to prioritize monetization over enjoyment of the gameplay/leveling/etc.
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84 Keys are just including keys I see in the scorescreen (meaning they brought it in) - while the Keyed escape number can be keys they found ingame as well from chests. I've had multiple games where people bring 4 Purple/Pink keys though and still get 4K'd. Maybe there is some word released somewhere that Keys and Moris are being hit with a balance patch soon because they're noticeably out by storm on both sides now (at least for me).
I usually put up a "Meta Snapshot" for survivors every month or so and finally I'm starting to see some "Counter-totem" perks starting to go up in prevalence considering Blight's teachable Undying becoming more common - I was hoping to see it as raw numbers faster but at least people are coming around.
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I don't think it's that, it's just that Survivors are their cash cows.
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Wow, yeah maybe people have heard something! I'll keep an eye out for that meta snapshot btw - sounds interesting.
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"Furthermore, they made Pyramid Head even more of a laughing stock than what he already is."
You really must be bad at Pyramid Head to have this type of opinion on him lol
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Unless new stats have been released that I can't find the "latest" stats are about a year old and the devs themselves have said they are bunk.
When we are talking about massively outdated stats that even the devs themselves have said you shouldn't trust those stats then I believe we should stop bringing them up.
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They made some maps slightly smaller while also making sure they kept every tile in the map and even added some. The changes on some maps aren't noticeable and other maps that were always and still are disgustingly large and survivor sided remain unchanged. Mothers dwelling, ormond, haddonfield.
The school maps are still a joke because they boarded up the school but made every other tile stronger.
The house of pain is still disgusting and still has a god pallet and a window on both iterations, while sometimes having all windows open.
The space between tiles is survivor favored and the tile spawns are often able to be strung together with minimal effort with zero mindgame potential for the killer due to the large gaps and holes in the walls.
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Yep, 11/2019. Where did the devs say not to trust these, though, and why? "People need to stop whining about balance" is different than "We actually messed up our count, our bad".
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Have to start somewhere. For all we know, they’re working on those things, or ya e them on a timeline.
I would just really want to know how compound 21 gets nerfed (needed) but Iri Huntress exists for 3+ years now
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Who said that and when?
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ruin god tier LOL
it can be gone in under a minute considering the garbage totem spawns.. it's happened to me on Hawkins for crying out loud. Undying and Ruin gone before I could even get to them.
"god tier"
"buuuuh anecdotes.." -- 50% chance Undying is first to go, means they only need 2 totems and you're out of 2 perks
"GOD TIER"
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Almo one of the I believe balance? developers said that pretty much the day it came out because of people using it to try to more or less harass killer players who point out legitimate issues with the game.
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I think it's more about them being too afraid to make any big changes to things like that, especially when it relates to survivors and their meta perks.
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thats the thing, "house of pain is still disgusting", yeah, but it used to have 2 pallets and now has one, it can spawn with some entraces closed (I haven't noticed how the windows spawn now tho).
it's not fixed but it's an improvement
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Yeah just completely ignore why DS and BT are used that much. Hilarious logic.
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My biggest 'wut' change was the developers quietly removing both killer matchmaking and the system that prevented high rank SWF groups from smurfstomping beginner killers.
What on earth were they thinking?
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How, just how? Killers have received far more effective changes that benefit them in the last 3 years than survivors.
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They have a great group of fog whisperers but completely ignore them lol
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You really must be a bad survivor if Pyramid Head is a problem for you. ;)
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The problem isn't that the devs are out of touch, it's that the community is so self-centred that we can't admit that we can make a mistake ourselves or that we, AS A COMMUNITY, need to improve.
WE allow camping and tunnelling, because the devs won't ban them.
WE allow gen-rushing because it is mechanically allowed.
WE allow the DS/UB combo, because WE STILL SLUG ALL 4 SURVIVORS AND TUNNEL.
There is not a single dev, nor content creator, platform or player that we can fault. Everyone is to blame.
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I like to compare it to the balance of other games. Like let's look at warframe. Recently the DE devs have made it clear that they have a very specific design vision;
"If something is so strong that a majority of people are using it, and not using it is statistically the 'wrong' choice, then that thing needs to be changed."
On the other hand you have the BHVR devs;
"If 3-4 perks on both sides are used in 90% of games for both sides, let's just leave them as is, and make tiny QoL changes to other things. Balance and player choice is not a priority."
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You know first of this was not about red rank matches but in 80% of matches that had red ranked killers. Idk sounds to me there was a reason to use the perk, don't you think?
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This is indisputably false. Where legitimate proof is provided about racism, homophobia, or any other prohibited discrimination, the devs DO take action against those players.
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People aren't out of touch. A lot of people just have trouble separating anecdotal evidence from real evidence and from falling into the bad memories trap.
From what I've seen balance wise, my guess is that they watch games and review some data and try to see what just looks stupid and fix that. All else is fair game.
Watching someone take 40 seconds to heal, that's stupid. Watching someone hook, find a new survivor, down them, kick a gen with pop, then hook the 2nd survivor? Stupid. Watching a killer be unavoidable at melee+ range at higher skill levels? Stupid. Have a perk that no one can use when even trying (by any means)? Stupid.
DS is used to punish tunnelers but completely avoidable? Not stupid.
Survivor runs up with syptic agent and BT during end game collapse to counter your NOED. You suck and deserve it tbh, not stupid. Requires massive setup.
Spirit feels omnipresent? It is stupid, but unfortunately counter able by being good at looping and using iron will (another common perk). Based on what the devs say and do, will probably need spirit slightly in a few more patches.
This is just based on what I've seen devs talk about (except the BT one, that's my opinion, and probably fact)
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''Watching someone hook, find a new survivor, down them, kick a gen with pop, then hook the 2nd survivor? Stupid.''
In what world is that stupid? you don't just ''down a survivor'' that gen kick with pop is an added reward for a hook because that is your objective. and you can only kick 1 GENERATOR, in the time that you spend on chasing hooking and kicking the other survivors or even 2 for that matter can just finish some random gen somewhere.
And i played spirit with stridor and iron will won't help you that much, she is still broken.
What rank are you playing at?
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Is it an unpopular opinion to believe that Borrowed Time is just about fine in its current state? Heck, I'd even be okay if they buffed it a little by changing "within the terror radius" to instead be based on a fixed radius around the hooked survivor (maybe like 20-24m).
I'd like for DS to be reworked for sure, and maybe for Unbreakable to be toned back a little bit, but I generally don't feel like BT really needs much additional balancing.
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I keep seeing the phrase amongst multiple people that most DC's don't occur unless the killer is already ahead. Most of my DC's happen in the end game when the survivors have either already opened the gates and I downed one successfully, or they'll dc because they're the first hook. There's no logical way to predict why and when people will dc ( unless you're intentionally being a dick ) so it's kind of a mute point by itself.
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@CalamityJane I've tried justifying the mistreatment by behavior with bungie as an example and people don't care. I don't know how they can't see that the way were treated is unacceptable. I used a bug patch as an example. Destiny 2 had a game breaking bug that caused year's worth of player data to be deleted instantly. They not only fixed it in 2 days they also gave a detailed explanation on where exactly it went wrong and how what measures they had implemented to prevent it from occuring again. Then we have behavior with "pop was changed because killers had too much time to do other things". Like really? I love dead by daylight and will continuing playing it in hopes it gets better but, the community managers do a poor job of actually addressing issues. I'd give them a platinum star in providing us with non legitimate answers to legitimate concerns.
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