Dead Hard, Fair or Unfair?
introduction
Hello again, I bring to you a rather obvious question but a interesting one to still debate about. Today, I want to discuss if Dead Hard is fair or not in the current meta of DBD.
Now of course I need to address the obvious answers that we'll get before the discussion even begins. I'll provide these questions in their own sub-sections below, but for now I'd like to take a moment to address why I bring this question to light.
Why I consider the perk is unfair and my reasoning behind this post
Well first off, I want to say that I don't like Dead Hard. I don't like using it and I don't like facing it. I've countered it plenty of times, I know how to counter it, but I still don't like it. Now, why is that relevant to the post at hand? Well, it brings to the table an interesting debate I want to spark in the community itself about the perk and why I personally don't think it's fair to face in a lot of scenarios.
In most scenarios I face it, I only see it being used for distance at windows and pallets. That's it, there isn't other uses I've seen outside of gaining distance for windows or pallets. I have faced people who use it for faking turns into Dead Hard for a miss, but you rarely see it now a days because it's mostly just used for distance now.
You might ask why this is unfair though, well, I consider it unfair when you bring up the fact that the perk itself can easily extend a chase or re-write a mistake a Survivor makes at said chase (with enough leg room that is). Kind of like DS but not really. The point is, the perk (in my opinion) isn't exactly fair to face when you're up against multiple users of it, who only use it to gain distance or fix a mistake when getting moonwalked, faked, etc.
I should also mention that when Dead Hard is being used to gain distance, there's nothing the Killer can do about it. If we're talking about scenarios that involve a way to bait it, than that's a different discussion that can be brought up below, but I'm mainly talking about a straight shot to a window or pallet that the Killer can't prevent if Dead Hard is used. The same goes for if the Survivor makes a mistake and the Killer could've downed them if Dead Hard was not used, just to be clear.
Now before I continue, let me address the questions and answers that'll be brought up in this discussion.
"The perk can be easily faked"
First off, yes, it can be easily faked in the right circumstances. The perk itself is actually really easy to predict when you've faced it for so long. But in my 2200 hours, I still don't consider the "Dead Hard for Distance" meme to be fair. This mostly stems from the fact that there isn't any punishment or counter that can be done for using it to get to a window or pallet. It should also be mentioned that most people who use Dead Hard will use it for that scenario, since it has no downsides and no risk of backfiring (besides of course they did it too early).
"Dead hard can be baited at pallets"
Now, here's where it gets a little tricky. Dead Hard can be baited at pallets yes, I've done so many times and downed people as a result from that mistake. However, this usually only works at loops that have funky obstacles in the way like rocks or bushes, it doesn't really work at loops that're long with a straight shot to the pallet.
This of course is only semi-true though, since if you actually do catch up to them at a "long loop", than they'll use Dead Hard to avoid the hit, which allows you to just walk to the other side mid-animation and hit them. But this only really works if you're right behind them and they're right at the pallet, making the scenario unavoidable for them.
So in a way, it's very hard to say it can be baited at pallets 100% of the time, it really depends on what you're given and what happens in that given moment.
"Is this just a complaint post?"
No, it's a debate I would actually like to bring to the attention of the community to better discuss Dead Hard. I only bring it up now due to how common the perk is at this time, which makes the issues of the "Dead Hard for Distance" meme a lot more prominent.
You can argue this was sparked by my hatred for the perk, as mentioned above, but it's mostly brought on by the issues I see with the perk itself and why I think it's unfair in certain cases.
"If this is to get the perk nerfed, that's impossible"
No, this isn't a debate to get the perk nerfed, lets get that out of the way. It's a debate to discuss why I feel the perk is unfair and to see what others might say as a response in a civil manner. Yes, it would be impossible to nerf the perk itself without making it basically worthless.
If we're talking about a scenario where Dead Hards distance is reduced, it would make it a lot less effective due to the Killers lunge being able to "out distance" it. So yes, it would be impossible and no this is not to get the perk nerfed.
Something important to note about the discussion itself
After some discussions below about the perk itself, I failed to mention some important key points that I want to address in this edit. Dead Hard by all means is a "helper perk", which means the perk itself can add to a chase and even other perks as well.
With that being said, Dead Hard can also hinder a chase depending on who's using it, what scenario they're in, the killer they're facing, etc. So when discussing the perk itself, it really does depend on WHICH scenarios that're fair or unfair, not just the main point I focused on above.
The perk itself in the right conditions can be very underwhelming or very overwhelming, it really depends on what it's being used for and what scenario we're talking about. This means if the perk is being used for distance, than some like myself consider it to be unfair. If the perk is being used for complex loops, saves, etc, than it can be considered to be fair when you involve a players skill itself and what they're using it for. The perk itself can also add to other perks as well, which makes the discussion more complex when you consider this into the mix.
It should be kept in-mind that some might focus on different scenarios that others are not talking about at all. So it's good for us all to keep an open mind when bringing up each individual point, as it really does depend on many factors that're presented with the perk itself.
With that all being said, I look forward to this discussions continuation.
conclusion
If I missed something above than I'm sure someone will bring it up below, but I would like to say that I do hope this discussion will spark a civil debate on the perk itself and what it's used for. I look forward to what will be brought up as an argument or addition to the post.
I'm open to discussing all avenues of debates that're on-topic with the post itself and I will do so in a respective manner to both perspectives. So please, feel free to agree or disagree, I'm open for anything that's reasonable to discuss.
Comments
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i would say in most circumstances its annoying but not that impactful however there are times it can lose you the game just by the single press of a button preventing a down so im still not a fan of dh but i get why people like using it
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Right, it's kind of like why people use DS or Adrenaline or BT. They have their respective uses and some of them arguable have little downsides to them at all.
In the case of Dead Hard, it's not as impactful as some other perks like DS or Adrenaline, but in the right cases it can definitely lose you the game depending on who's doing it, how good they're, etc. It can even make the game more difficult if multiple people use it who're not that good at looping, since that added time really does add up to a match.
When we're talking "is it fair or not" it's hard to say since it really depends on what scenario we're talking about.
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couldnt have put it better myself
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Dead Hard is a really good perk but I think it's a fair one. Good timing of Dead Hard in a chase is definitely a skill, it's not something you just spam and get value out of it. It's popular because really good survivors know when to use it and when not to. As a killer if someone uses Dead Hard to beat me in a chase to a pallet or to dodge an attack I don't think "Dead Hard OP", I think "ah well, that guy made a good play".
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I personally don't use DH anymore since crossplay was added I can't get the timing right and I'm exhausted on the ground...lag or whatever has changed. I do think it's fair, I just can't make it work properly and to the people who can "props." I like the idea of the perk and don't think it needs to be touched, although it would be nice if it was usable again atleast in my case
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I tend to think it's fair...
1) To use it the survivor has to be injured... either staying injured or using DH as a back up
2) The distance gained is minimal compared to the other Exhaustion perks (except for Head-On)
3) Gives the survivor/killer interaction more skill rather then loop 3x drop pallet move on (or window)
4) Allows pathing to be unique rather then doing the same things at every loop
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I personally disagree with this, so allow me to explain.
I don't really think it takes skill to know you'll make it to a pallet or window, especially when it's a straight shot. I see what you mean by the timing is what requires skill, not the button press, but I just don't really see how knowing when to press a button to avoid getting downed really requires any skill to begin with.
I don't want to sound like it takes no skill at all, it definitely does take some knowledge to know that you'll make it to that pallet with DH, but it's just something that anyone could figure out if they know what the perk does. If you're faced with a scenario that allowed you to get to a vault or pallet with no downside, wouldn't you obviously take it? Since most players who use the perk already know that if the loop is long than they can avoid a mistake by simply facing towards the pallet, using DH, and escaping the down all together.
To say skill is involved at all is... arguable, I'd say it's just common sense that allows players to figure this out early on. Skill is more-so something that's contributed towards your looping skills or overall knowledge of the Killer or even specific Killers and how they play. I don't personally agree that any skill is involved in Dead Hard, at least not in the scenario's I gave in the initial post. Of course it takes some advanced knowledge on when to use it in a more tricky loop, but the perk itself is only really an addition to someones looping potential.
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I suppose this is why "Dead Hard for Distance" has become more prominent, since the perk itself is still having issues in specific scenarios that involve a juke or loop. But I can see what you mean by not using it outside of the issue I brought up, since it's hard to get the new timing down at more tricky loops.
I can agree with points 1, 2, and 4, but 3 is arguable. The main scenario I brought up was the Dead Hard for distance one, but I can see what you mean in terms of other scenarios it's used as well. But for the one I bring up, there's no downside to using the perk, no counter, it cannot be avoided if the Survivor knows they'll reach a window or pallet after a mess up or for an extended chase.
These are also good points, but in terms of which scenario we're talking about is where it gets muddy. In some cases yes it's fair, it does take skill to use in spots outside of distance like juking or tricky loops, but in the case of pressing a button to get to a window or pallet is where I personally don't see the skill or fairness in. There are other scenarios that involve that as well, but I'm primarily just talking about the meme itself that the perk is attached to.
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I actually had a scenario where a single dead hard turned the game around and was very demoralizing to say the least after fighting through all of the other meta perks.
It was during a stream so I'll have to find the match, but I think this is a good discussion to have since I have an example for it's use.
Is it unfair?
I'm not so sure.
The problem isn't that Dead Hard can be used for distance or erase a mistake, it's that Survivors have several perks that erase mistakes or can be used "offensively" against the Killer's objective.
The issue comes down to time and efficiency for the killer, so any perk that takes time away from the killer allowing Survivors to spend more uninterrupted time on gens can become very problematic when used in conjunction.
Which is exactly why the Survivor meta is the way it is right now.
Sounds like you wrote my next video for me lol
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I have seen people pull some amazing hook saves comboed with some other useful perks with it that has resulted in an amazing defeat for me to which I can only raise my hat to. I myself have learned from these moves and applied them myself in my own survivor matches and seen its great potential over and over again. It's not unfair, you just need to learn who has it and next time predict it to make them waste it and then simply down them. If you know they have it, there's very little they can do to avoid your M1 really.
It's not a "get free out of chase" perk. Not even close. People fail with it constantly, even pros.
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That's actually a very good point, I didn't really think about how the perk itself can also cause issues when paired with other perks. It seems so obvious too, perhaps I wasn't really thinking about that and rather the scenario I focused on as a whole.
Please do bring the video in this post, it would actually bring up more interesting discussions on the perk itself and even the meta as a whole.
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i think Dead Hard is one of the prime examples of a perk that can be utterly useless in the wrong and extremely oppressive in the right hands.
the most annoying / unfair part about it imo is the famous "Dead Hard for distance", which basically lets the survivor get away with greedy plays by letting them reach windows / pallets they, under normal circumstances, would not have reached.
on top of that, Dead Hard is the only Survivor exhaustion perk that can be triggered at will, there is basically no requirement that has to be met (okay they gotta be injured, but unless its a oneshot killer that hasnt hooked you yet (cause you're injured after a hook and then its on you whether you want to heal and risk not getting it or whether you want to stay injured to have access to it) that is always going to be given throughout chases). every other Exhaustion Perk has clear circumstances that need to be met (e.g. SB only works at the start of the chase + only if the survivor took it slow throughout the trial, Lithe forces them to fastvault sthg and BL only works after dropping down sthg) in order for it to go off, DH is always there, activatable whenever the survivor happens to need it.
its not bound to "avoiding a killers attack", it is just as much useful for getting that tiny bif of distance on the killer to further extend loops.
plus it basically just hardcounters Trapper and Nurse - and with the current bug also Deathslinger, which gave it the quite fitting nickname "E to outplay".
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This may be true, but what about the other scenarios that involve distance to windows or pallets? I can of course agree that the perk itself involves a certain level of skill and common sense for saves, tricky loops, and jukes.
Perhaps I focused too much on the specific scenario I disliked and missed other important things to add to the post itself. Since Dead Hard is pretty complex in terms of which is fair and which is not when you involve different scenarios and perks as well. I'll definitely be sure to edit that in above, since I suppose I was blinded by the main point I brought up.
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I think you might be overestimating the average player's ability to use Dead Hard properly. There are a lot of players who for instance only try to use it to dodge attacks, which is a mistake unless you're timing is really exceptional. The better use of it is to get a bit of extra distance in a chase to ensure you get to a pallet in a close call for instance. And if you use it too early in a chase for distance it might backfire, you want to use it at the last moment but soon enough that there's no chance of getting hit as you do the drop or vault. So knowing when to time it involves properly gauging the timing on both your path and the killer's path in a loop, and looping and knowing proper pathing is one of the things that I think is one of the higher skill cap aspects of this game. (Knowing the intricacies of specific tiles for loops is still one of my weak areas at least.)
Basically I think Dead Hard is a skill enhancer in that sense. An average player will probably only get average results out of it, an excellent player can get excellent results out of it. Compare that to, for instance, Decisive Strike which really only requires you to be able to hit the skill check involved to get value from it, or Borrowed Time which pretty much works passively while you rescue someone. Dead Hard is in contrast something you actually have to time correctly or it's pretty worthless.
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See i understand when you put it that way with all the survivor 2nd chance perks stacked in one game. I as a solo mostly run one exhaustion perk unless I'm trying something fun here or there. I have had to leave DH behind because of my previous statement but I like DBD set up just think when stacked for sure makes it hard and I don't have any idea in how to fix that other than limiting people's options. Which I'm hesitant on cause I think every individual should play how they want. Open to your ideas in the next video though
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Tbh DH is one of the second chance perk I don't mind. Yes it can be very strong and in some cases even game losing to erase a mistake leading into critical down but that's (at least for me) not even half as annoying as other second chance perks like DS, BT, Unbreakable etc.
I like the skillful uses about it, you can do some very nice mindgames with it and use it in creative ways. Yes, dead harding for distance is braindead and cheap but some killer can deal with it. Other exhaustion perks can erase mistakes without much survivor imput as well, that's their core design.
I think it doesn't need changes, it's really cool perk that can (as one of the very few) be used skillfully which is something I support. There are conditions to it and downsides as well so if anything, more viable perks that cause exhaustion should be added so people who dislike them can counter them.
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It really depends on the specific scenario we're talking about yeah. In some cases it can be basically useless in open areas with nothing around, while in other scenarios it can get a tricky save, extend a tricky loop, or even (in the case for Dead Hard for Distance) give a arguable undeserved extension to a loop that someone messed up or wouldn't have been able to use on their own.
Is it unfair though? Hard to say. It really just depends on what's used for, since it can be (like you said) extremely oppressive or extremely underwhelming. I didn't even mention the other part where other perks work with DH itself, making it even more tricky to discuss since it's by all means a "helper perk"
Perhaps, but I still only consider the level of skill in terms of that scenario to not really be that high. If we're talking more complex saves, loops, or jukes than the skill cap does increase. It really just depends on what the perk is being used it, rather than what the perk is primarily used for right now.
It really is by all means a double edged sword, it can help but it can also harm the Survivor as well. It really just depends on what it's being used for and who's using it. But for the sake of this proposal, I can agree it does take some knowledge to gauge when to use it properly, I just don't think it takes as much knowledge as you suggest.
I don't think it needs changes either, in-fact I was against it being changed all together in the initial post. But yeah, it's a complex discussion when we take into account what perks DH is paired with, the scenario it's in, what Killers can't avoid it, even the loops themselves if we're talking what the perk is primarily used for atm.
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If the users are smart, there is literally no counter to it. However, the same can be said to every exhaustion perks.
As killer, you cannot really counter exhaustion perks unless you're top tier killer, but they still extends the chase and requires no effort from the user, with dead hard as the most skillful one among all the exhaustion perks. You cannot prevent the perks from activating.
Also, DH is free outplay when used against nurse and blight. You can't really bait it out as you don't always have another blink/rush available.
I personally think exhaustion should have some sort of debuff, not just a form of cooldown for a collection of perks. For example, slower running speed, slower gen repair, etc..
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Well you can't prevent their activation but you can actually counter them when given the right scenarios. For example, Balanced Landing can actually be prevented if you're right behind the Survivor that's about to drop down. By lunging during the drop, you gain enough distance to hit them before the perks speed boost kicks in. So in other words, if they're healthy you "prevented" their escape from a hit and when injured you prevented the perks use all together.
For Dead Hard you can't really prevent its activation (except when the perk just doesn't work), but rather you predict when it's used and counter it as such. As for Sprint Burst it already has it's own counter, which prevents a user from running if they want to preserve it. Of course some Survivors keep it around 80% to use it in a chase, but if they want to do gens they have to let the exhaustion run out... so it's a double edged sword.
As for a debuff that's debatable, it really depends on which perks we're talking about and certain knowledge we already know about them and their counters. These perks can be counter, it just depends on what scenario you're in. This means there isn't a counter that can be used on them indefinitely, but rather there are counters for specific cases they're used in.
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Before I give my opinion i feel its best to determine what is considered fair or unfair in this game that will help things a lot. In my opinion what makes things unfair is that something has little to no counterplay in something.
With that out of the way in my opinion Dead Hard is fair perk. Annoying sure, but fair.
I believe that, to a certain extent, it takes skill to use dead hard EFFECTIVELY. In my opinion a player has skill if they are able to use a perk for more than its original intentions. The original intentions for the perk is to avoid taking hits when injured to dash forward for a small frame. However others are going above and beyond and using it for more then its original purpose, which is to use the extra distance not to avoid taking a hit but to make it to a pallet or window (albeit with great timing to pull it off effectively). To be able to have the thinking and ingenuity to get even more out of a perk to benefit you, means you're skilled.
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Heres how I look at any perk in this game. Would it be op if the other side had it? In the case of dead hard, if after 30 seconds of chase, the killer had a lunge that was twice the normal distance and had a 40 second cooldown, would that be fair? No, no it wouldn't.
It's the distance that's the problem, because it's a very abusable perk. I would change it to no distance gained, but a nurse style fatigue if killer swings and misses. That would put skill back into it, rather than a loop extender.
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First, as I said before I personally don't think it takes much skill to dash forward to a pallet or vault. If we're talking loop extension when the Survivor already effectively looped the Killer or for a complex use like a save or what-not than yeah, it does take some skill to think about when it's useful in what scenario.
But for other scenarios like the DH for Distance meme, I don't really consider that to take a lot of skill. And in my opinion, I don't think it's fair either because there's nothing MOST Killers can do about it. You can argue it does take some skill yeah, but I personally don't think that skill cap is very high. It's more-so just common sense that the perk will give you enough distance to a vault or pallet when pressed, it doesn't really take much... well... skill to do that, at least not in my opinion anyways.
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I suppose if a fatigue was added it would add some level of complex thinking to it, but than the perk would be useless if the fatigue is too long or the Killer doesn't swing at all. If the fatigue is short enough to allow someone to DH into a window or pallet, than I guess it'd still be useable? But in a lot of other complex scenarios it would make it even harder to use, which would make it more prone to be used for distance.
As for the Killer interpretation of the perk, I don't really see the point in it. Having a double lunge after 30 seconds of a chase would give every Killer the same lunge as Myers in Tier lll, that'd be busted. In the case of DH, it's not really the same thing. A lunge is a key mechanic for a Killer to use in a chase, while DH is just a perk that can extend a chase, it's not a core point to a Survivors abilities like the lunge is for Killer. I see what you meant by the example, but it isn't really the same thing.
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I play without DH, DS.. Why i out of lot game...🙂
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I'm torn. I don't specifically see Dead Hard as an unfair perk, but it feels frustrating to play against a survivor team when 3-4 of them have it (same feeling as with Borrowed Time, Unbreakable, or Sprint Burst). Killers with fatigue times or resource management are also more harshly punished by Dead Hard (such as Nurse, Legion, Deathslinger, and Trapper to name a few).
I do strongly agree that I dislike how easily DH can rectify survivor mistakes at many loops. I guess I'd really like to see DH return to its roots as a "dodge" perk and made less effective as a distance perk.
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I wouldn't really call it unfair but it does feel pretty bad when you've made a great and difficult play but the survivor just had to press a button.
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I think you have it backwards there. The survivor doesnt get the fatigue, killer does. So killer is in chase, survivor times it right, he gets the invincibility frames, but no distance, and killer gets a stun.
There would still be a mind game at the pallet, because if killer doesnt swing, the survivor makes it, but it wouldnt be free distance.
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To me it's the most unfun thing in the entire game.
DH like a lot of perks depends where it is used. In the middle of a dead zone it's not a major problem, using it for distance to reach an extremely strong window however and it's insanely powerful and can buy the team so much time. That's not even mentioning those times where you mindgame a survivor, close the gap and they tap E to undo it.
It's essentially a third health state when used correctly. In fact to be honest seeing how often this gets used for distance it's not that all that different to old Mettle of Man. You don't see it visually but it's an artificial chase extender which requires very little skill.
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Dead Hard is one of the more OP perks in the game. It's just been in the game long enough for people to accept. It always blew my mind that people lost their minds over original Mettle of Man when it was a one timr only use perk with an aura reading down side. Dead Hard can be used at least 3 times per match and extends chases big time. Even DS and unbreakable can only be used once.
Like many of the stronger survivor perks it's really more of the fact that multiple survivors can use these perks that creates the issue. If one guy has Dead Hard it's not that big of an issue. If 3 or 4 have it? Different story. Same with the other strong perks.
They really need a perk budget of $12. Depending on usage you'd have a list of $5 perks (DH, DS, Unbreakable), $4 perks (spine chill, we'll live forever, etc). This would lower the amount of second chances (there would still be some). It would also lead to more perk variety.
But they'll never implement that. So just be ready to go against multiple DH, DS, Unbreakable, etc.
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Right, since it originally was just about dodging and not gaining distance to extend loops. You can also think some scenarios with it are unfair like it being paired with other perks or the DH for Distance meme being unfair as well. As discussed in this post, it's come to a point where we mostly agree that certain scenarios with the perk is fair, while others are not.
Right, it's hard to really say it's unfair overall, it's definitely unfair in some situations where you can't prevent or counter it, like the DH for Distance meme as an example.
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I can definitely see what you mean but I wanna make a point to say that it has to be used effectively. Sure I may seems that dead harding for distance may take no skill and anyone can do it sure, but that does not mean that they did it effectively. If I'm out in the open and use dead hard i didn't use it effectively. At most it only bought me a 2 seconds. Using it effectively to get to a pallet does take skill if you are able to time it correctly (Which some people have not got the timing down)
Also forgive me but to say that is not fair because most killers can’t do nothing about it seems a bit hyperbolic to me. Could you provide some examples of how?
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I think the effect of Dead Hard is a little bit to powerful.
Fine with gaining Distance but i think they should remove the invinciblity of it.
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I love me some dead hard. Its one of the perks that goes in all my builds. As someone who enjoys the chase it has gotten me out of alot of situations were I would have been downed. Whether the perk is unfair or not I do not know. But you bring interesting points i do agree on. In my opinion its one of the perks that I can fully rely on. Lithe requires a vault, BL requires high ground, SB forces me to walk to all my gens and well i don't consider Head on a perk ill rely on in a chase. Thats just me tho.
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I had never used dead hard until an archive required it, and I got the timing down in about 2 tries. Not a lot of skill required for use.
If used at a pallet, you either swing and miss, or they make the pallet anyway. Someone like huntress or pyramid head can punish it, but no one else. Basically it's a free chase extender, and we all know how bhvr feels about perks for free.
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Is a free chase extender really bad though? There are many survivor perks that extend chases but we don't persecute them like we do for Dead Hard.
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Strong perk but not unfair really. The only perk I think is really unfair is OoO on SWF teams.
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The Perk alone is pretty balanced; A small half a second dash that protects you from damage if timed properly (and if not goofed by dedicated servers) or can be used for distance.
while it looks extremely BS for someone to use it to reach a pallet or window that otherwise couldn't be reached, it's not the end of the world, you can still try to mindgame and down the survivor, HOWEVER while I don't consider the perk alone Overpowered I do consider it extremely overkill for all 4 survivors who loop well enough to run it.
I consider the perk to be a training wheel to cover up for mistakes, however when you rarely make a mistake it just becomes overkill, 4 average lets say 300 hour survivors running the perk will help them in the long run but as I said a good survivor doesn't need the perk, but people will still use it to win and I don't blame them, "Perk shaming" shouldn't be a thing cuz it makes me win like i'm not gonna run any means necessary and for the people (both are very good perks mind you) but they use 50% of my perks and aren't as good as dead hard which uses 25% of my build.
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lol speak of the devil. Just saw this and had to share.
Yeah it's interesting how everyone is so focused on how Undying/Ruin needs to be nerfed because it's so popular yet we've just "accepted" these kind of combos.
They can't be picked up, they can't be slugged. Even outside of the 1 self-pickup part of the perk, the faster recovery itself is extremely powerful and renders slugging for pressure mostly redundant.
It's funny because at one point in this game there was a gen 90% complete. Someone gets unhooked before I've even taken 5 steps away by the person with BT. Now I know I can't hit them because they'll have BT, I wanted to keep them off the gen they had been working on near them but I need to hit them to get BT out of the way, and then if I chased them I can't pick them up, if I slug them they get up anyway.
So I just left them and surrendered the generator to them. Chased the other guy instead. No matter what I did the survivor had a way out.
I know people get fussy over any accusations of bias but when one side often has to have commonly used perks changed and the other side is allowed to keep the same meta for years it's easy to see why these kind of feelings crop up.
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One chase extender isnt a problem. When its combined with ds, bt, and unbreakable, then all 4 are using it, along with comms, and flashlights, then it becomes a huge problem.
It would be like old swing chains freddy, with undying, old ruin, pop, and noed. It would be oppressive as all hell and completely miserable to play against. That's what irritates me so much about the devs, killer perks aren't allowed to synergize, but survivor perks are.
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Sprint burst is just as bad imo and very powerful if all survivors run it.
BL and Lithe aren't as common because they are more situational.
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Exactly all of these perks do the same thing in extending chases, like dead hard. So to argue that dead hard is unfair because its a chase extender not a sufficient argument.
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But Thats not the fault of Dead Hard right. Its the synergy that's the problem not the perk itself.
Don't get me wrong I understand it can be overkill to have everyone run these perks.
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Oh I see, than it'd just be a dodge perk like it originally was in the first place. That'd at least be more reasonable than it being a dodge and distance perk, which would prevent one of the major issues people have with it anyways.
In a sense it's like a third health state yeah, just not literally like you said. But I would also like to say it isn't really like MoM, since MoM was more-so a endgame perk that gave the Survivor a free escape if the gates were open, making it impossible to down them at the end. Even mid-game it was a head-ache. You didn't even need to think ahead to use it, it was a passive perk that gave tokens when hit, so in a way DH at least takes some common sense to use, while MoM didn't take any at all.
Also yeah, DH itself really just depends on the situation it's in. If it's to gain distance with no downside than yes, in my opinion that's unfair. If it's used in a complex save or tricky loop than it took skill to actually devise that, so that would be fair since they could mess up the save or loop, making it really temperamental. If it's in a deadzone than the perk is basically useless... So yeah...
I don't really understand what you mean by that proposal, even if I did it isn't really necessary anyways since just reverting the perk back to a dodge perk is good enough. Right now it's a dodge + distance perk, which is where the main issue people have with it come to light.
As for the MoM argument, MoM was by all means busted. You didn't even have to think to use it, it passively gave tokens and a free health state after 3 hits, which is where the main issue in mid to end game comes in. If you have MoM on at a gate, you're free. Sure DH is unfair in specific scenarios, but any scenario with MoM was unfair to begin with.
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Not a lot of killers will agree but I am a rank 1 1500 hour killer and I think it is pretty fair. A person with dead hard can be countered through 3 seconds of patience and even if it lets them do one more loop that isnt so bad and is less than many killer perks save/restrain BUT-
This depends on having fair loop. There are a few loops left in the game where making a window one more time via dead hard adds an arbitrary 20 to 25 seconds to a chase, and this hurts 110 percent killers even more. The fairer all the loops get, the more reasonable dead hard is because it adds a consistent extra length to chases, instead of a random amount based on map rng. In that sense it adds about the same length of time as sprint burst. Killers who dont simply wait for the dead hard and THEN attack are the problem (getting dodged at close range is much more damaging than merely having the surv make another loop) but is mostly a killer skill issue. I assume everyone has it unless I have recntly seen an exhaustion perk used, and everyone else should too.
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I just don't really see how DHing to a window or pallet takes much skill. If I said it did, it isn't much since anyone can do it. If you're out in the open with DH as a usable perk, you can't effectively use it at all, so I don't really understand what you mean by that either.
As for an example, just pick any M1 Killer that can't dash forward like Nurse, Spirit, or Demo to name a few. If I was The Wraith and got you to make a mistake at a loop which would've gotten you downed, but you just DH'ed to a pallet or window because I couldn't immediately down you, is that fair? To me it isn't, nor did it really take much timing to do it. Of course it does end the loop entirely, but the Survivor at least go away with it and could continue the chase with a potentially stronger loop.
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Possible. I think having it just be a dodge perk would suffice, since the distance thing is what really bothers players the most.
Well like many including myself have said, it really just depends on what the perk is used for, if it's paired with a build, what Killer is facing it, the loop they're at, etc. The perk can either be underwhelming in certain cases like being out in the open or being at small loops or it can be overwhelming when used at long loops to DH to vaults or pallets or it can be overwhelming when used in complex loops or saves, but at least then it does take some skill to think that quickly with the perk.
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I mean everyone is free to use what the game provides, it's the community that decides if it's fair or unfair. Some people do perk shame which by all means is not really ok, but people can still make points as to why they dislike something or want something changed.
As for the perk itself, if it's just one player using it than it isn't really a big deal, even if they're extremely good with or without it. But if a full team uses it with other meta perks, than that'll really cause some trouble. But like before, it really just depends on WHAT it's being used for that makes it fair or unfair. That's why I can respect someone with the perk who pulls of complex loops that they could mess up, but I don't really consider the DH for Distance meme to be fair, since there's nothing you can do about that if you're not someone who can punish it.
Tbf, I don't think anyone has accepted the DS + Unbreakable combo. But that's another problem entirely...
I think he means that when you pair it with the already known issues it brings, than that's a recipe for disaster. The perk itself is manageable albeit annoying, but when mixed with other perks can cause issues. That's all DH is anyways at the end of the day, it's just a "helper perk" that can add to other perks that a lot of people don't like.
That could be why the DH for Distance meme started, but I'd like to think it was started just because it's not really fair in a lot of cases.
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From the first part I feel we can agree to disagree
For the second part I feel wraith is not the best example for this. In my experience he has been able to counter it with impeccable timing making it utterly useless. And I believe that's the thing with this perk. Timing is everything. (For me I haven't fully got the timing down.) You have to time things perfectly in order get effective use out of it.
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I'm Sorry if I seem a bit heated in this discussion, but I just want a bit of consistency. I just don't understand why we persecute Dead Hard so much when other perks do strikingly similar things.
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Ok but I fail to really see how any M1 Killer can counter the perk itself if it's used to gain distance to a vault or pallet. That's primarily what I mean when I mention that scenario, that the distance thing for the perk really does cause issues. It can actually fix a chase or even extend one with not much effort.
I also don't really see what you need to time when you use the perk, if the Killer is only a few meters behind you and you know you won't make the full loop without it, than what're you really timing to get to the other side of the vault or pallet? That's what's confusing me when you mention timing, since you can't really time a straight shot to those two things, you just get there regardless.
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