Convince me with the strongest arguments that undying + ruin needs a nerf.

They don't. but means to find and cleanse totems need a slight buff. Be it a totem counter, be it perks like small game narrowing the cone instead of the distance, things like that. So you don't scramble around an area trying to triangulate the totem while the killer comes closer as they saw your aura pop up due to undying.

Of course it needs a nerf. Nearly half the games I play, Survivors don't have 3 gens down by the time the first survivor gets hooked. How are we supposed to always get those gates open, line up, and do a 4 man Teabag Boogie every single game if, on occasion, the killer is actually able to get credible map pressure?

Oh yes, and Deathslinger's gun has to stop working past the exit gate. Because being caught teabagging by one running NOED is unfair.

It doesn't need a nerf - survivors just want their games to be simple an easy, ruin and undying promote alternative objectives which I'm pretty sure everyone wanted.

I just want survivors to get the cursed status effect when they touch a totem and Undying is up. That's it. The most annoying piece about Undying is that it's hard to be sure a killer's running it and it's equally hard, once you suspect the killer's running it, to know when it's no longer in play. Survivors have no feedback right now. Every other hex perk in the game gives the survivors some sort of feedback when it's in play, even if it's somewhat delayed like Devour Hope or NOED. Undying should work the same way.

I am not one to call for a nerf, and I don't necessarily believe it needs a nerf. The only argument I have against Ruin+Undying is that there is no way for the team to know that Undying is in play since there is no status notification. letting survivors know that there is an aura read around totems OR that a hex transferred would, in my opinion, make this a bit more balanced.

As far as game impact, it doesn't matter much to a good team, but an uncoordinated solo q might have 2 or even 3 survivors searching out the totems when they see ruin is in play, and the aura read will tell the killer when to drop chase and defend their hex. Plus if the survivor is looping near a totem then so long mind games

I'm sure I haven't convinced anyone, but there's my thoughts. let me know that the killer can see me near bones and I'm a happy one

Ruin and Undying is totally okay IMO. It's a strong effect, but still risk reward.

Undying shouldn't give free aura reading on dull totems though. (or lit totems IMO; that should be part of Thrill of the Hunt along with the notifications) Being able to see someone at the start of the match because they didn't equip Distortion is nuts. There's no feedback on the Survivor's end and there's no way for them to try and avoid the aura reading. It's a strong effect added onto an already good perk.

I think instead, token based Hex perks shouldn't lose their tokens when they respawn. Make Undying a pure support totem perk; but make it very good at that instead of only being good with Ruin and Thrill of the Hunt.

remove undying aura showing it's so fking stupid high mobility killers just it with ruin and tinkerer and patrol whole game totems with aura showing and gens they dont even commit to chase as soon tinkerer show up they will run there and camp near gen until it regressed almost fully or until killer will see somebody's aura around his totem boring gameplay

When Undying first came out, I assumed it meant the hex would only transfer once. But then I found out it can literally transfer 4 times if no one cleanses a dull.

Imo, I think it should be nerfed, but not completely, it can still have its aura readings and it's transfer. But make it so it transfers ONCE and not 4 times.

Dont nerf it, add a totem counter or a totem sound cue.

People say it is too strong because of the aura reading effect. That itself just pushes it over the edge.

why would i give my argument when your mind is already made up on the topic? disingenuous thread is disingenuous.

As Th3 said, the real issue lies in Ruin. New Ruin often forces survivors to choose between gen progression and a teammate on the hook. Personally, I think this is the sign of a really great perk--survivors need to choose between two pressing issues.

Unfortunately, in my experience Ruin over-incentivizes survivors to greed gens, which leads far too frequently to survivors struggling and even dying on first hook. Undying makes Ruin stronger, by forcing survivors to now choose between three pressing issues--unhooking a teammate, gen progression, and cleansing totems.

Does this mean that Ruin + Undying needs a nerf? No.

But it is a problem.

It is not healthy for the community to be forced into a new meta (cleansing totems before doing gens), by severely punishing them for not adapting to the new game. This issue transcends DBD, and is prevalent in many multiplayer settings. People want to see new ways to achieve victory added to the game--not be told that their old methods are obsolete.

That said, it is truly astonishing how easy it is to counter Undying (or any Hex Totems), if you create a perk build that keeps it in mind. Detective's Hunch (+ Open-Handed), Distortion, Small Game, and all map items are capable of eradicating totems and Inner Strength will even reward you for doing so. I cleansed 5 totems in under 2 minutes on Lerys with a map just yesterday; Ruin/Undying didn't stand a chance.

Like many aspects of DBD, builds can feel extremely powerful (or weak) under the right circumstances.

Ruin/Undying is extremely strong against 4 survivors with no aura reading perks/items, when the totem spawns are well-hidden. As it should be.

Ruin/Undying is extremely weak against 1 survivor with a map that can track the killer's belongings, and/or Small Game. Throw Distortion in there, and the killer doesn't even know you're cleansing his totem.

So is the OP wrong for his title, if one survivor can destroy a killer's entire build with one perk or item?

No, I think he stands correct.

Ok when it first came out I wanted it straight out of the game. I’ve come to grow on it a bit and see it isn’t too bad however there are still some changes I think need to happen in order to help it’s counter, cause atm it’s very limited.

1: Remove the ability for it to detect when people are on totems and give this ability to TOTH. Like ######### were they thinking when they literally gave this perk everything thrill of the hunt has but so much more. The counter play to this perk is removing both dull ad lit totems but that’s insanely hard outside of a swf when they can just see ur aura when u go near one.

2: Add like a 30 second cool down on ruin if it is taken out whilst undying is active and allow it to restart its abilities after this time. Every other totem perk has a penalty for loosing the totem like devour and lullaby loosing all stacks etc, but ruin avoids this ad it nick this is not only unfair but should be adjusted accordingly.

When discussing Undying and ruin a very annoying thing I tend to notice is that a lot of people will always bring up worst case scenarios when trying to talk about it balance.

Which again is pretty flawed logic when you're talking about a gamble perk like Undying. If people have frequently Undying with any hex perk combination (it doesn't have to be ruin) I'm sure you've had multiple times where Undying gets cleansed first.

And I'm sure as survivors you've had times where you've had to cleanse ruin 4 or so times just to get rid of it.

Yes when we talk about the worst case scenario we're going to to run into situations where the Perk seems a bit overpowered.

I've stated this on several posts but if they have to change Undying the only thing it needs is to have the Aura ability probably switched to Thrill of the hunt that is it. (I love you to death Otz but your suggestion for it is terrible) That's only a "IF" they have to change it which personally opinion I don't think they do.

^^ this. Strong killer perks/combos are a good thing, less so when it's strong against solos & trivial against swf, widening the gap even more.

6 entire seconds of aura reading whenever a survivor runs past a totem whilst undying also having such a strong primary effect is ######### absurd. Can literally watch a survivor move 24 metres, or around almost the entire shack if there's a totem in there. No cooldown or survivor action requirement needed. Should be 3 seconds MAX

Think about I'm all ears: 6 seconds of aura reading only if a survivor vaults a window AND is on a 40 second cooldown. The actual hell?

The problem is that most games in higher ranks with equal skill levels are very close in a sense that there is a "point of no return" were either the killer or the survivors snowball.

Ruin+Undying gives the killer, if played decently (not chasing someone for 3 minutes, but pressure gens here and there) a big time advantage if he is not very unlucky with the spawns. That time advantage is usually enough for a good killer to seal the deal. Even with Detective's Hunch, which i am running all the time now, it takes so much time to cleanse all the totems (more than often i had to cleanse 4 or 5) around the map, not taking into account that i may get chased in between. Without this perk (or Small Game), some maps are extremely hard to play. Generators have to get finished as well, otherwise you won't see the auras with D'sH and you won't progress the match. Generally, how longer the game goes, the bigger the chance the killer will win, because even if he plays not clever, hooks will happen and pallets get destroyed. The "rush"-meta is often under fire but if you don't do things as fast as possible, you won't win against a good killer who's also trained in doing things as fast as possible.

I personally don't run this combo as killer (ok sometimes just for fun) because i always had bad luck and i need reliable perks for the endgame. But i played against it often the last days. If you're not having the right perks with you and the killer is on a good skill level and mobile, it can be extremely frustrating because nothing get's done. But if you manage to cleanse the totems, the killer has usually no late game pressure anymore.