Convince me with the strongest arguments that undying + ruin needs a nerf.
*This isn't a debate thread*
There's been so many threads about ruin and undying. I've made a few myself explaining why I don't think it's that strong and why I think survivors are freaking out about it. So far all I've seen from other people are knee jerk reactions or bad arguments on why the combo needs a nerf.
So give me the best and strongest reason(s) why it needs a nerf. Convince a survivor main. Maybe start at why ruin has suddenly become a cleanse or lose hex perk again that everyone drops everything they're doing to cleanse right away. Then explain the strength of the combo. Don't just go for the worst case scenario...
Here are some arguments I've seen pop up. Improve on them if you want.
Some bad arguments: it takes no skill/ it gives free pressure/ carries bad killers... I think that if ppl thought about things more they'd realise that this doesn't make sense. Not to mention the fact that it doesn't really answer whether or not the perk combo needs a nerf.
An okay argument: solo queue can't handle it. I'd say that in edge cases ruin + undying probably helped the killer win. In most cases where the solo queue team is losing against it, I'd like to remind you that it's solo queue.
I've seen a few others...
Comments
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No need to write anything here to be honest. You will not be convinced whatever people are saying.
I mean, just look at your "Some bad arguments". Your counter is "They dont make sense". Thats it. Yeah. Cool.
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They don't. but means to find and cleanse totems need a slight buff. Be it a totem counter, be it perks like small game narrowing the cone instead of the distance, things like that. So you don't scramble around an area trying to triangulate the totem while the killer comes closer as they saw your aura pop up due to undying.
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They don't. but means to find and cleanse totems need a slight buff. Be it a totem counter, be it perks like small game narrowing the cone instead of the distance, things like that. So you don't scramble around an area trying to triangulate the totem while the killer comes closer as they saw your aura pop up due to undying.
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I just didn't want to write about why it didn't make sense cuz it was already getting long and it's not really a debate thread. Either way if I don't find it as a good argument you might as well pick a different one then. If it's your only one. Well it hasn't convinced me.
Plus, I've already written why it doesnt make sense as an argument in other threads.
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Ruin/Undying doesn't need a nerf, in my honest opinion. SWFs can deal with co-ordinating totem cleansing easily. Solo survivors need some serious information buffs, such as when any survivor is in a chase or how many totems remain on the map. Get these and a lot less people would complain about NOED too. Then, we can buff killers accordingly, knowing all survivors get x information when y is happening, and introduce more good perk combinations like Ruin/Undying in the future to help shake the meta.
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You guys are really missing the point of this thread...
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I'm bad. Please nerf ruin.
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well obviously, because it doesnt need a nerf
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Of course it needs a nerf. Nearly half the games I play, Survivors don't have 3 gens down by the time the first survivor gets hooked. How are we supposed to always get those gates open, line up, and do a 4 man Teabag Boogie every single game if, on occasion, the killer is actually able to get credible map pressure?
Oh yes, and Deathslinger's gun has to stop working past the exit gate. Because being caught teabagging by one running NOED is unfair.
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I'm known for doing that. I gave my honest opinion on the subject matter as a whole because I don't believe it needs to be nerfed but wanted to contribute. You're offering no reason for discussion or rebuttal, and literally said this thread wasn't for debate. Therefore there's no purpose responding to the points you make since it's not a debate, it's just stating each others opinions and going along with your day. Not the point of a forum post but it is what you want
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It doesn't need a nerf - survivors just want their games to be simple an easy, ruin and undying promote alternative objectives which I'm pretty sure everyone wanted.
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Because there are already like 20 other forum discussions doing a debate of sorts on this topic. All of them disappear into suggestions & feedback. I find that all of them just divolve into terrible arguments on both sides cuz ppl get their feelings in a tizzy. I actually want to find the best argument against undying + ruin cuz when I think about it myself, I don't really see the need.
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I just want survivors to get the cursed status effect when they touch a totem and Undying is up. That's it. The most annoying piece about Undying is that it's hard to be sure a killer's running it and it's equally hard, once you suspect the killer's running it, to know when it's no longer in play. Survivors have no feedback right now. Every other hex perk in the game gives the survivors some sort of feedback when it's in play, even if it's somewhat delayed like Devour Hope or NOED. Undying should work the same way.
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I solo queue survivor so here is my opinion. Ruin has become a do or die perk to either get out of the way or allow a person to get to second stage while hammering a gen so your progress doesn't get reset.
This has led killers to slug and force survivors off gens. Maintain a tight patrol around their totems especially with undying showing the exact moment someone is trying to cleanse a totem, and tunnel a survivor out at 4 gens because solo queue survivors (pc and console) farm them off hook and waste every pallet ever.
All of this on maps like the Game, Lery's, Midwich, Saloon, maps that have had increasingly better totem spots has led to 3-4 dead at 4-5 gens.
Do I think ruin undying needs a nerf? No.
Is it one of the most annoying combos with solo queue? Yes.
Is it bearable in swf? Yes but its very boring with the killer just protecting their totems and not engaging in chase.
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I am not one to call for a nerf, and I don't necessarily believe it needs a nerf. The only argument I have against Ruin+Undying is that there is no way for the team to know that Undying is in play since there is no status notification. letting survivors know that there is an aura read around totems OR that a hex transferred would, in my opinion, make this a bit more balanced.
As far as game impact, it doesn't matter much to a good team, but an uncoordinated solo q might have 2 or even 3 survivors searching out the totems when they see ruin is in play, and the aura read will tell the killer when to drop chase and defend their hex. Plus if the survivor is looping near a totem then so long mind games
I'm sure I haven't convinced anyone, but there's my thoughts. let me know that the killer can see me near bones and I'm a happy one
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I'm bad. Please nerf Swf.
Sounds better right?
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That's cuz this isn't a debate thread. I've already written why the argument doesn't make sense in those threads. Nobody bothered to answer. Either way improve upon the argument then.
I'm just going to say that you're not really arguing about the strength of the perk. You're actually arguing about whether it's fair or whether someone else is working hard enough.
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Sounds about right
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Because it's bad for game balance. </topic>
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I only play Solo queue survivor and I don't see a problem with it. If killers don't have Undying their totem gets cleansed right away and if killers do have it its just a motivation to look for totems. Finding totems isn't a hard thing even without Detective's Hunch and if the killer gets a strong map for totems than that's okay. Hex Totems are designed to be strong with the high risk of being cleansed. Making it easier to find totems will make Hex Perks useless. There is a reason why Undying was implemented and as someone that plays with that Combo as well I don't see that survivors are struggeling to get gens done. We are still talking about the new Ruin and not the old one.
The problem is in my opinion that I still see a lot of survivors just completely ignoring totems when they wallk past them. But that shouldn't be a reason to nerf totems.
And it's okay to not cleanse Undying and Ruin every single game. It's okay if the killer gets lucky from time to time too.
The only thing that they can change in my opinion is the aura revealing. That's something extremely powerful for the killer side, especially if a totem is at a strong loop position.
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Ruin and Undying is totally okay IMO. It's a strong effect, but still risk reward.
Undying shouldn't give free aura reading on dull totems though. (or lit totems IMO; that should be part of Thrill of the Hunt along with the notifications) Being able to see someone at the start of the match because they didn't equip Distortion is nuts. There's no feedback on the Survivor's end and there's no way for them to try and avoid the aura reading. It's a strong effect added onto an already good perk.
I think instead, token based Hex perks shouldn't lose their tokens when they respawn. Make Undying a pure support totem perk; but make it very good at that instead of only being good with Ruin and Thrill of the Hunt.
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Same can be said for DS. The amount of people using it should not automatically mean "it must be op". Otherwise a lot of perks would be nerfed.
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Ruin was changed to where you have to apply pressure for it to do its job. But it still suffers from being a hex totem which can be found in the first 30 seconds of the game, and removed before any value can be had.
The main arguments from survivors that I saw on the forums when ruin was changed was that it now required the killer to pressure for it to work.
With the addition of undying it allows ruin to be more than a small nuisance. which a hex perk should not be. This combo allows ruin to be an actual problem for survivors, and it requires the killer to actually pressure ( as I have stated many times now). A good team can still power through it, and an even better one can find the totems easily and make the combo a non issue. So in my opinion, it is fine as is.
Tl:Dr: do bones you gen jockeys
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It doesn’t. Anyone who complains about it just want the game to cater to them so they don’t have to give up one of their meta perks to counter the new meta.
The game provides plenty of counters to hexes, no need for a totem counter or anything new, anyone who asks for one are asking for the game to be made easier.
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remove undying aura showing it's so fking stupid high mobility killers just it with ruin and tinkerer and patrol whole game totems with aura showing and gens they dont even commit to chase as soon tinkerer show up they will run there and camp near gen until it regressed almost fully or until killer will see somebody's aura around his totem boring gameplay
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Reee we won't do bones to counter 1 perk that could possibly be not used
*devs add a perk that now demands survivors to clean or at least 5 bones*
Reee we still won't do bones because reasons
Basically survivors. Will find countless reasons to ignore anything but generators and then complain about killer's stuff.
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When Undying first came out, I assumed it meant the hex would only transfer once. But then I found out it can literally transfer 4 times if no one cleanses a dull.
Imo, I think it should be nerfed, but not completely, it can still have its aura readings and it's transfer. But make it so it transfers ONCE and not 4 times.
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lol at that point it would be worthless. People forget how easily totems can be found on most of the maps.
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Dont nerf it, add a totem counter or a totem sound cue.
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You can say that again.
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People say it is too strong because of the aura reading effect. That itself just pushes it over the edge.
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It doesn’t need a nerf imo. Like every other hex totem combo it’s either amazing or trash. The meta will simply shift with it and people are gonna pop totems whenever they see them or seek them out.
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I agree with this. 99% of the change my mind threads are made just to hear people’s opinions and then say “no”
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it's not that strong. any decent group will realize it and take care of it. then you've wasted a couple of slots.
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The combo itself doesn't need nerfed.
Here's what I think should change:
1. Survivors should get a totem counter. Either base-kit or on Small Game.
2. Undying doesn't reveal survivor auras if they stand next to a dull totem.
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Trash combo that has already received a shadow nerf.
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why would i give my argument when your mind is already made up on the topic? disingenuous thread is disingenuous.
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Cuz the more you leave your opinions around the more likely you'll get ppl to read it. Whether they change their minds or not you're still changing pushing things in the direction you want.
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As Th3 said, the real issue lies in Ruin. New Ruin often forces survivors to choose between gen progression and a teammate on the hook. Personally, I think this is the sign of a really great perk--survivors need to choose between two pressing issues.
Unfortunately, in my experience Ruin over-incentivizes survivors to greed gens, which leads far too frequently to survivors struggling and even dying on first hook. Undying makes Ruin stronger, by forcing survivors to now choose between three pressing issues--unhooking a teammate, gen progression, and cleansing totems.
Does this mean that Ruin + Undying needs a nerf? No.
But it is a problem.
It is not healthy for the community to be forced into a new meta (cleansing totems before doing gens), by severely punishing them for not adapting to the new game. This issue transcends DBD, and is prevalent in many multiplayer settings. People want to see new ways to achieve victory added to the game--not be told that their old methods are obsolete.
That said, it is truly astonishing how easy it is to counter Undying (or any Hex Totems), if you create a perk build that keeps it in mind. Detective's Hunch (+ Open-Handed), Distortion, Small Game, and all map items are capable of eradicating totems and Inner Strength will even reward you for doing so. I cleansed 5 totems in under 2 minutes on Lerys with a map just yesterday; Ruin/Undying didn't stand a chance.
Like many aspects of DBD, builds can feel extremely powerful (or weak) under the right circumstances.
Ruin/Undying is extremely strong against 4 survivors with no aura reading perks/items, when the totem spawns are well-hidden. As it should be.
Ruin/Undying is extremely weak against 1 survivor with a map that can track the killer's belongings, and/or Small Game. Throw Distortion in there, and the killer doesn't even know you're cleansing his totem.
So is the OP wrong for his title, if one survivor can destroy a killer's entire build with one perk or item?
No, I think he stands correct.
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With DS+unbreakable i don't think this needs a change
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Ok when it first came out I wanted it straight out of the game. I’ve come to grow on it a bit and see it isn’t too bad however there are still some changes I think need to happen in order to help it’s counter, cause atm it’s very limited.
1: Remove the ability for it to detect when people are on totems and give this ability to TOTH. Like ######### were they thinking when they literally gave this perk everything thrill of the hunt has but so much more. The counter play to this perk is removing both dull ad lit totems but that’s insanely hard outside of a swf when they can just see ur aura when u go near one.
2: Add like a 30 second cool down on ruin if it is taken out whilst undying is active and allow it to restart its abilities after this time. Every other totem perk has a penalty for loosing the totem like devour and lullaby loosing all stacks etc, but ruin avoids this ad it nick this is not only unfair but should be adjusted accordingly.
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It screws over solo players or players that don't have totem tracking and is directly countered by perks that are worse than useless if there are no hexes in the trial. That means the times where it is cleansed are instantly overshadowed and drastically outnumbered by the times it directly creates 12-hook trials.
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When discussing Undying and ruin a very annoying thing I tend to notice is that a lot of people will always bring up worst case scenarios when trying to talk about it balance.
Which again is pretty flawed logic when you're talking about a gamble perk like Undying. If people have frequently Undying with any hex perk combination (it doesn't have to be ruin) I'm sure you've had multiple times where Undying gets cleansed first.
And I'm sure as survivors you've had times where you've had to cleanse ruin 4 or so times just to get rid of it.
Yes when we talk about the worst case scenario we're going to to run into situations where the Perk seems a bit overpowered.
I've stated this on several posts but if they have to change Undying the only thing it needs is to have the Aura ability probably switched to Thrill of the hunt that is it. (I love you to death Otz but your suggestion for it is terrible) That's only a "IF" they have to change it which personally opinion I don't think they do.
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Don't nerf the perks
Buff information on the map for survivors
Just give a global sound cue for when a dull totem is cleansed similar to when a Hex Totem is cleansed. In my opinion though the Hex totem should have a more unique sound when cleansed instead of sounding like a failed skillcheck sound cue alert for killer.
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^^ this. Strong killer perks/combos are a good thing, less so when it's strong against solos & trivial against swf, widening the gap even more.
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I switched out Ruin+Undying for Pop+Tinkerer on my Blight, bc Undying was so often destroyed first with Ruin destroyed not much later. I don't know why, but I feel I'm consistantly cursed whenever I play with or against hexes. When I use hexes, I feel they are mostly destroyed early before having any real effect (like recent Unduying+Ruin), and when I play against them, I get hit by Devour Hope even though I already destroyed 4 out of 5 totems using Detective's hunch. Just super unlucky most of the time.
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6 entire seconds of aura reading whenever a survivor runs past a totem whilst undying also having such a strong primary effect is ######### absurd. Can literally watch a survivor move 24 metres, or around almost the entire shack if there's a totem in there. No cooldown or survivor action requirement needed. Should be 3 seconds MAX
Think about I'm all ears: 6 seconds of aura reading only if a survivor vaults a window AND is on a 40 second cooldown. The actual hell?
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It's a flip of the coin: It's either going to destroy the survivors or it's going to completely fail. There is no inbetween.
It's too strong when it succeeds and it's useless when it fails. There's no balancing that and the fact that SWF is an active thing means that it's going to often rely on the killer facing a solo/duo group or a communicative 3-4 man. That something is so inconsistent, yet so ungodly effective against the one queue that is also the easiest to face makes it worth shifting in power at the very least.
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The problem is that most games in higher ranks with equal skill levels are very close in a sense that there is a "point of no return" were either the killer or the survivors snowball.
Ruin+Undying gives the killer, if played decently (not chasing someone for 3 minutes, but pressure gens here and there) a big time advantage if he is not very unlucky with the spawns. That time advantage is usually enough for a good killer to seal the deal. Even with Detective's Hunch, which i am running all the time now, it takes so much time to cleanse all the totems (more than often i had to cleanse 4 or 5) around the map, not taking into account that i may get chased in between. Without this perk (or Small Game), some maps are extremely hard to play. Generators have to get finished as well, otherwise you won't see the auras with D'sH and you won't progress the match. Generally, how longer the game goes, the bigger the chance the killer will win, because even if he plays not clever, hooks will happen and pallets get destroyed. The "rush"-meta is often under fire but if you don't do things as fast as possible, you won't win against a good killer who's also trained in doing things as fast as possible.
I personally don't run this combo as killer (ok sometimes just for fun) because i always had bad luck and i need reliable perks for the endgame. But i played against it often the last days. If you're not having the right perks with you and the killer is on a good skill level and mobile, it can be extremely frustrating because nothing get's done. But if you manage to cleanse the totems, the killer has usually no late game pressure anymore.
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another thing to mention here: since survivors cleanse far more totems, i've seen far less NOEDs getting activated. A good side effect of this meta.
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