Legion's power should work like Oni's, and here's how...
Keep in mind, none of these numbers are final and subject to discussion and change.
I made a post a few months ago addressing the issues with Legion. If you would like to read it, you can find it by clicking HERE!
Feral Frenzy
- Charging: When the trial begins, the FF gauge starts depleted. It will gradually charge at a rate of 0.5 c/s. Initiating a chase adds 6 charges. Basic attacks add 20 charges. Breaking pallets or walls, damaging generators, opening exit gates, and closing the hatch will add 16 charges. At 100 charges, Feral Frenzy is active and usable at any time.
Just like Oni, you must charge your power before you can unleash it. Borrowing from Legion's mischievous nature, you charge it by just being rowdy in general; stabbing people, breaking everything you see, and just all-around causing mayhem.
Now for the actual frenzy...
- Activation: Activating Feral Frenzy raises Legion's knife, but does not provide a speed boost until they hit a Survivor. However, they are still granted the ability to vault windows and pallets at the same speed as (if not slightly slower than) Survivors. Just like Survivors, Legion can perform medium or fast vaults depending on their momentum achieved prior to the vault. This doesn't affect pallets, which always have a set vaulting speed.
- Feral Frenzy lasts (approximately) 12 seconds.
- Missing an attack during Frenzy will trigger a missed attack cooldown akin to missing a basic attack, but won't cancel Frenzy.
- Getting stunned by a pallet or locker will end Frenzy, but you'll retain your remaining charges.
- Manually cancelling Frenzy at any time results in a 4 second fatigue.
To sum it up, you can't just pop Frenzy at a loop and guarantee a hit. It certainly helps thanks to the ability to vault faster, but be careful not to get stunned! Also, if you miss an attack, Frenzy won't end immediately anymore.
- Frenzying: Hitting a Survivor with Feral Frenzy inflicts a Deep Wound like usual and triggers the following effects...
- The gauge is completely refilled.
- You can no longer see scratch marks or blood trails.
- Your movement speed is increased to 5.4 m/s, or 135%, but the gauge depletes 25% faster, or (appoximately) 9 seconds.
- All healthy Survivors within your terror radius are revealed via Killer Instinct for
4 secondsthe duration of Frenzy. - Missing a Feral Slash after hitting a Survivor removes 25% of the power gauge.
- Feral Frenzy will end automatically if no healthy Survivors are detected (3 second attack cooldown). You retain what's left of your gauge when Frenzy ends for the previous reason, or if it's ended manually (which will fatigue you).
- If you for some reason hit a Survivor already afflicted with a Deep Wound, their Deep Wound timer is immediately reduced by 20 seconds, leaving them with 10 seconds to mend, and Frenzy ends. It's totally possible to down a Survivor this way. Devs, PLEASE add a score event for doing so just for memes :)
- Hitting an injured Survivor (who isn't deeply wounded) will apply a Deep Wound and trigger the above effects. However, you're not really supposed to do that. :/
- Being stunned will cancel Frenzy but you'll keep your remaining charges like above.
This new Frenzy is designed to be used in short bursts and punish Survivors that are condensed... which is, in fact, what it was designed to do in the first place. This new version tries to whittle down situations where Legion will hit a Survivor and run all the way across the map. Instead, Frenzy will now be situated in specific areas of the map since Killer Instinct will mark nearby Survivors only briefly. Not only that, but it'll also cancel Frenzy immediately so you don't have to waste time manually cancelling Frenzy to proceed with the chase.
Now for the passive:
- Passive: Legion's passive is very straightforward. It activates during a chase with injured Survivors, and allows you to medium/fast vault windows (not pallets) just like you could in Feral Frenzy without using the ability. During this time, you have an extended lunge.
- ^ This idea can be improved upon. Feel free to suggest or discuss different ideas if you've got any!
Finish Line
I'm glad to have finally gotten this off my chest! Everyone loves Legion but hates them at the same time. But neither do we know what to do about them. Hopefully this'll shed some light onto this seemingly hopeless situation.
Thanks for reading!
Comments
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The power sounds good but also hella weak
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Yeah, he's a goddamn powerhouse charging at you ffs. I say make it to where he instadowns, but make the timer 30 sec and have him do a little rage endure thing once activating like oni. I agree on passive, but he needs to be stronger. An athlete with a knife is deadly
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really pointless... next
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This just seems to make legion worse?
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Can I please have an explanation? I put careful thought into this before posting, so I want reasonable criticism if you’re gonna comment. Then I can make changes with your feedback provided and give Legion the treatment they need... hopefully.
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Well, it's just the legion's current power, except with extra steps required for them to trigger it fully. You'd just be weaker legion till you hit someone while frenzying, and then you're just...... current legion. It just doesn't really help the stuff they're weak in, it simply shuffles strengths around.
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it's the normal Legion but with a power you have to earn by doing stuff. I love the 20 second reduction and the passive, but other than that it is, as I said, hella weak.
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I wanted to make Legion less irritating to go up against and rewarding to play effectively. You can refer to the link I sent at the top if you want to see I mean.
As for the power, we can change the numbers around if need be. (And keep in mind, we’re also not including add-ons.) I don’t want Legion nerfed by any means. As he stands right now, Legion is alright. He just needs anti-looping capability and to be scarier to face from the Survivor’s perspective without being annoying.
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That’s exactly what it is. Same Legion and then some. I didn’t want to change too much to avoid overcomplicating it. Like I said, I’m making the power less annoying and give it counterplay, as well as loop-stopping and an incentive for Survivors to heal.
The numbers can be changed. It’s just hard to measure without proper testing.
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I feel like this is just a nerf. Which is not what he needs.
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Obviously. It's not supposed to be a nerf. What it's supposed to be is similar to Oni, but a bit different. Oni charges up and secures quick downs. For Legion, they charge up and chain attack Survivors for widespread pressure. And they'll also have a passive so they can capitalize on this pressure frenzying or not.
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I always enjoy reading about how Legion's concept can be expanded 😊
Some Feedback:
FERAL FRENZY SHOULD START FULLY CHARGED
The beginning of the game is a very important part of the game ESPECIALLY for Legion. Many times the survivors will spawn together and begin working on a generator. If Legion's power started depleted it would rob him of potential multi-stabs that can carry them to the mid-game.
FERAL FRENZY SHOULDN'T REDUCE DEEP WOUND TIMER
No lethal frenzy even if its really bad >:(
FERAL FRENZY SHOULD NOT DEACTIVATE IMMEDIATELY WHEN NO HEALTHY SURVIVORS ARE NEARBY
I can see this sometimes screwing you over more than it could help. Ex: Survivor vaults off a second floor window on Haddonfield after you FF slash and now you have to sit through a stun before you can slow vault. This could work as an add-on though.
LEGION PASSIVE
I'll try my best to improve upon the concept. Here is what I came up with while brainstorming for an hour:
While chasing an injured survivor after 8 seconds, begin a "Feral Rush". During a "Feral Rush" You can vault windows faster (.9 seconds) and your lunge is extended. Getting stunned, losing LOS with the injured survivors for more than 2 seconds, successfully or unsuccessfully attacking, losing chase, or upon manual cancellation you will become stunned for 2.5 seconds. "Feral Rush" can last forever until one of those requirements are met, but it's unlikely to last for long periods of time.
When Feral Rush activates there is a global audio que and Legion's eyes will begin to glow bright red. He will also have a stance similar to how he looks while frenzying.
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why most idea for Legion feel/look like nerfs.
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It takes 100 charges, which is 200 seconds passively. That's basically enough to get all the gens done before it charges passively once.
In order to manually charge it you would need to do 9-10 actions which are basically hits or breaking.
So basically by the first time you use your power the map is clear of pallets, and all of the gens are done.
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The numbers can be tweaked.
And if you rely on your power passively charging, then that means you’ve seriously just AFK’d. There’d be no other explanation for it.
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- Perhaps. I was borrowing from Oni quite a lot here so his slow start carried over as well. Though, I figured since you could rack up charges so easily that it would balance out. We could have their power fully charged from the start, or half-charged. Regardless, manually charging the power should stay.
- I totally understand where you're coming from, but the odds of you hitting a Deep Wounded Survivor with your power twice is extremely unlikely. Hitting a Survivor with Deep Wound already cancels your power. Which means you'll have to earn your power back before you can hit them again. If that happens, that's really their own fault for not mending. (I think I forgot to mention this in the original post.)
- I see where you're coming from and I can vividly imagine a moment like that. However, moments like those happen even under normal circumstances (with basic attacks) and if you're aware that hitting them will cancel the power, you should wait until they vault before attacking.
- Feral Rush... I kinda like it. It's like what I had but actually feels complete. Though, I would change a few things. It's a passive, so it shouldn't require manual input from the player, and it should last indefinitely as long as you're in a chase with an injured Survivor. No end stun either. The reason for this is because the passive is meant to give the Survivors an incentive to heal (since current Legion has no such thing), because if they don't, they'll be at a constant chasing disadvantage. I think the vaulting speed and extended lunge is the selling point here. Tier III Myers has an extended lunge and increased vaulting speed and he performs exceptionally well in chases, so I can see this working well.
Thanks for the feedback! I really wish I could have more discussions like this to further build on conceptual powers and such. :)
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Update:
- Different actions reward a different amount of charges.
- Killer Instinct is no longer timed.
- Passive power updated to increase lunge range.
- Specified fatigue and attack cooldown times. (4 second fatigue from manual cancel or time depletion; 3 second attack cooldown after Frenzy auto-cancel.)
I have no idea if this'll be too strong, specifically for the charge update because it feels like the Hillbilly changes all over again. First a huge nerf, then a buff to the point where it doesn't even matter, then a nerf again. I hope it doesn't come to that.
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Now, I want you to know, I do not hate the idea of this change. However, as it stands, this is pretty much a nerf.
What are current Legion's weaknesses? His massive cooldown/fatigue, his gauge depletes on basic attacks, his DW timer gives a generous 30 secs to survivors, a short timer on his Frenzy combined with a relatively mundane speed increase, and (most importantly) his power cannot down survivors.
Let's compare this to Oni. Oni needs to get 1 hit and milk the injured survivor. What does he get? He gets 45 seconds of having one of the best chase powers in the game and can down a whole team before the gauge is depleted (unlikely, but potentially).
Legion... can't do that. It's a weak power, so adding a condition to make you work for it is simply an arbitrary nerf. Now, adding in the passive is pretty cool, if a massive pain to code in, but it's simply not enough. Legion needs help, but this isn't the way.
I do like the thought process behind this though. Perhaps you could use it to create your own killer rather than being limited by trying to improve Legion?
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That's exactly what I hear from everyone and I don't know what else they could possibly do to Legion to help them. I've been constantly pointing everyone to the post I made about Legion's flaws at the top of this thread, and I'm trying to address the issues in this rework. I don't want to get into detail because that's like... an entire essay to write for a single reply. I don't mean to be so stubbornly obstinate, but this is my second attempt at Legion and feel really confident about this one.
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You're missing the point. Your keeping Legion's flaws but also adding new ones, in this case, a terrible early game. Not to mention, the moment anyone knows you're a Legion, they will split up—that's the counterplay to Legion and why getting a good early game is important.
You have an idea but you're missing the fundamental problems. It's a power meant to punish survivors for grouping up... but you have to earn it, giving them plenty of time to spit up. Not to mention, the punishment is just holding M1 for 12 seconds.
Again, let us compare to Oni. People split up against Oni too (to avoid Infectious) but the thing is, Oni's Wrath mode give him the ability to straight-up insta-down on TOP of being really fast with Demon Dash AND almost lasting a minute. It's doable to hook someone, see more on BBQ, go into Blood Fury, then Dash over there and snow ball.
Legion can't do this, despite having a similarly bad early game with this purposed changed. He's having the same problems, with more Legion-specific problems as well, and for far less reward.
I know you've put a lot of effort into this. I'm sorry, but just will not work. Unless you change Legion completely, there is no way this will work, and if you do so, you might as well think of a new killer entirely.
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I guess it's back to the drawing board again. Everyone seems to agree that this isn't on the right track so I'm gonna stop acting like there's a silver lining.
Gosh darnit Legion why do you have to be so damn complicated?Thanks for the feedback nevertheless.
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Don't feel bad. Legion's power is one of the hardest to balance. He's essentially gets the ability to ignore every defense a survivor has like Nurse, but is much easier to play. it's hard to balance an ability like that.
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Yeah, I’m just disappointed and a little frustrated for that exact reason. Cool concept; hard to balance.
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I'm always open to sharing ideas, mate, especially those concerning my main. <3
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