Ruin Undying Change
Ok i've made a thread before about how i really disliked the ruin undying tinkerer meta and i've come to the conclusion that it's not as bad as i may have claimed it was before, but I still think it needs a change for two reasons.
1: There's no need for the killer to activate it or work for it or change their playstyle for the perk or anything, yet it's still very strong. If we look at a few other strong killer perks you can see that they have conditions, drawbacks and require the killer to do somethign for it to work. Pop/BBQ/Dying light: You need to hook people. Surge/Infectious: You need to down people. And for those which don't they often have big drawbacks such as the ability for survivors to wait out corrupt and work on other gens. Ruin undying does all the work on its own and the killer basically doesn't even need to register that they have the perks on as it does all the work for them, much why the old ruin was changed.
2: Inconsistensy compared to other hex's + undying. Pretty much all other totem perks have a penalty if they are popped with undying still up, such that you loose all your stacks which applies to most hex's. Ruin however doesn't get any penalties or anything when it is popped whilst undying is still up and the game goes on as if it was never taken out.
Thus I've come up with one potential solution to the perk. If ruin is cleansed whilst undying is still up, ruin is deactivated for a minute or so. Whever it could be cleansed or not during this period I woudln't know but let me know your thoughts on this and any ideas for a change that you might have. I don't nescaserily want it too much weaker but rather more managable for survivors, especially solo q.
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Or Cleanse 5 totems as a secondary objective as Survivor like the devs intended.
You can replace perks like Decisive Strike ,Unbreakable ,Borrowed Time ,Dead Hard or Sprint Burst or any other meta surv perk with Small game and Detective's Hunch. You can also bring a map if you want 4 meta perks to stay that much
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Bring detectives hunch. For the price of one perk slot you can completely nullify two of the killers perk slots making the perk ratio of killers to survivor 15:2 if you can't be bothered to actually try to counter it, don't complain about it.
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No. There are ways to counter it. The killer is subject to a fair amount of luck, even if only 1 surv is casually cleansing.
Frankly, right now - there is a lot of stuff on the survivor side of things that need to be brought back in-line before the devs even glance at killer perks. Highly abusable stuff like OoO, Spinechill, DS etc. that has literally no counterplay that won't get you cussed out in post-game.
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So your solution is force everyone off of the origional survivor meta perks and make them all use detectives and small game. Sounds like a pretty unqiue and totally original build to me.
Also you know how much time you have to waste to cleanse five totems? The time it takes for survivors to get almost two gens done. And that's assuming u find all the totems straight away, the killer doesn't interupt you and ur in a co-ordinated swf.
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Because it's not like there are plenty of other strong kliler perk combos out there right? I'm literally a killer main and i've been through with people so many times how ds unbreakable is avoidable 99% of the time.
Even if DS unbreakable is "game breaking" etc, that's it. There's nothing else like it for survivors. Killers have a much larger variety to choose from.
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It's because survivors have become complacent. Especially with killer matchmaking removed, combined with the old protections against smurfcomps being removed - both in complete silence.
Survivors consider a game a loss unless all 4 escape.
I was rank 14 by the way. This is a full premade. Their perks could have been way more cancerous, but I still got stomped into the dirt, and teabagged for my trouble. I basically had to camp #3 to get a kill. And then I get yelled at in postgame for camping.
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Bruh, have you seen forums? One of the biggest and oldest complaint here is that generally Generators pops too fast.
By having Ruin and Undying in a trial, Survivors are now forced to have a secondary objective (that was ignored most of the time.) that will slow gen progression.
It's not like doing 5 totems are bad. You remove NOED coming into play, counter all Hex perks and given points because of it.
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DS, in and of itself, isn't gamebreaking. It's how it interacts with stuff like lockers and other perks.
Spinechill and OoO are far more oppressive in SWF groups anyway.
Also - the second I see 'as a killer main' I picture Elmer Fudd in a bunny costume.
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This. I run Detectives just because I enjoy it most of the time, but since this combo has come about, it feels fantastic knowing I can deny said combo.
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Ummm spine chill abusable? That's a new one.
OoO has been falling out of the meta for a long time, when was the last time you came across a full OoO swf?
I don't have a problem with 99% of other killer perks but this build makes almost every other killer build look like trash. You know there's a problem when one build is 1000 times stronger than any other.
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It slows gen progression so much that solo survivors have no chance against a good killer.
Killers were winning games perfectly fine before.
The most annoying part i find about it is that when a killer beats you you can't tell these days whether it was because they were generally good or because they had ruin undying.
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1 killer has to bring 2 perks so he has a chance for Ruin to stay up. Survivors have 16 perk slot's. Is it realy asked too much to run anti totem builds if it botheres you so much? Where is THAT conclusion?!
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You're also thinking like you're in 1v1 game. Even if you are on solo q, it's not like you don't have teammates.
While you're Cleansing totems, at least one guy is doing generator, if someone's being chased then do Generator or Bones. Dont think you're along in the map with the Killer.
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Don't whattabout, please. This isn't a DS thread, it isn't a UB thread.
The complaint is a fair one - the reason everyone started running Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer is not for variety or personal preference. Killer plays normally and gets a lot of regression unless 4 survivors do something that normally only 3-4 person SWF's can do without losing by default. It is extremely strong.
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The only problem i see with spinechill is that sometimes it can make games boring as killer because people just hide all the time and you spend most of the game looking for people, which is a boring playstyle. And as for OoO, it's far less useful for swfs now because people have learned how to communicate etc, so as long as one swf member knows where the killer is at all times, there's no use for OoO.
Ok look maybe ds unbreakable combo's do need a change, but the arguments people use for it are extremely dumb. Yes they can jump in lockers and stuff but why are you going for a recently unhooked person anyways unless you rlly need to tunnel someone out of the game, in which case taking a potential ds is the price to pay.
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Buy "full OoO SWF" do you mean that all survivors run OoO or just one
Cause if it's One survivor then I faced one earlier on today
If it's not then... No never have
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Somewhat often, actually. I'll see if I can grab you some postgame screens when I play tomorrow. About every 3rd match is 3-4 people playing together, one with OoO. Always Claudettes, for some reason.
Spinechill negates stealth and 'looky' killers amazingly hard with almost no way to counterplay, unless you want to try scouting gens while running backwards.
And yes - this is a strong build. If it's pushing other killer builds to the way-side, perhaps it's those other builds that need a look?
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By the time you've denied it the killer should have already begun to snowball unless they are seriously struggling with downs.
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If the killer has half a brain they will be able to down people and rotate faster than your teammates can individually do gens.
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Because that recently unhooked person has a tricked out toolbox or a key?
Because they are bodyblocking me constantly?
Because they ran directly into me, or I caught them healing?
There is a reason that DS is the subject of so many complaints. It's so damn abusable that even if a survivor doesn't have it, you have to play as if they did.
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For solos it's pretty oppressive, especially if you're not a veteran.
SWF is the balancing flaw again right here i guess.
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Quite a few killers actually don't even really need to worry about ds because they can just down them in 5 seconds afterwards,
I don't want to go further into the ds discussion cause it gets nowhere. If you want to make another threat about it.
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I can somewhat agree with that.
I just think that there's better ways of dealign with gen speeds than adding one build which completely counteracts survivors doing gens at a fast rate.
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Shrug. It's entirely relevant to the discussion at hand. You don't get to nerfherd without people pointing out that there is a reason for killers to need some strong perk combos at present.
Double standards aren't good.
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Definitly. I personally don't use the build, just because it limits me in my creativity. I'm a person that uses "Fire Up!" regularily tho.
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Cleansing Totems cannot be considered Survivors' secondary objective at least because Survivors don't know how many Totems are remaining in the trial.
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Ah yes, another thread of some meatball whining about a killer perk being decent for once. Yeah let’s nerf this now that we’ve needed pop. Gotta make sure those gens can’t be slowed down to a somewhat manageable speed. Like it’s so shocking how dumb ppl are. You do realize by constantly whining about any kind of benefit killers have, all it does is cause a nerf and make ppl quit killer. So you get less games, longer queue times... like I don’t like waiting 5-10 minutes for a game just because ppl like you cry about a perfectly fine perk combo and also one of the only viable ones because ur too garbage to go and cleanse totems. I play both survivor and killer equally, we as survivors have a stupid amount of broken or very strong perks. killers don’t have any broken ones and maybe 5 strong ones. It’s dumb that every time a perk becomes strong, we have to whine about it because it’s not a free win every time now
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There's plenty of other strong killer combos out there. Are you sayign that killers had nothign before the most recent chapter?
Another question, why has ds unbreakable only been kicked up as such a fuss since the past few months yet its been out for almost two years.
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Go on list me any "broken" survivor perks apart from ds.
Killers have quite a few strong perks actually clearly you just don't experiment with a wide range of builds, i can tell you run ruin undying tinkerer on most if not all of your killers.
Look nerfing this combo has nothign to do with "making sure genrushing still exists", it's the fact that it's extremely consistent and out of line compared to other strong regression perks and combos.
And if gen speeds are broken then tell my why myself and many other killer mains are able to consistently 4k?
Oh and about your statement of its not a free win every time, kinda hypocritical to say considering that's literally what undying ruin does.
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Well, your solution is basically force the killer to run some other perk instead of this.
As now, there are at least 3 good combo on killer. CI + PGTW, Ruin + Undying and Enduring + Spirit Fury. The last one less used cause Enduring was nerfed a little and now only work on pallets.
I don't want to talk about survivor, we already know the combo the red rank are using, but it's basically the same. Killer can't force survivor to change their perk only cause killer don't like it. And survivor can't force killer to change their perk too for the same reason.
Cleansing all 5 totem is 12*5 = 60 seconds. It's a little less than a generator, so i don't know where did you take the 2 generator time. To circle around and trying to find it? Survivor aren't alone. You need to hope your teammate do the totem too. If not, you can bring a map or changing one of your perk.
DS and UB doesn't need an activation (exept a skillcheck) and don't need survivor to change their playstyle, so your argoment is invalid. You can't nerf a side cause doesn't require an activation and ignore the other side that are the same.
The other totem have penality cause they have stack, and Undying doesn't transfer stack. I think is fair, cause, with DH or HL the game will be... tragic. But this are strong hex. The counter to Ruin, when is still up, it's cleansing the totem OR repair a gen, that is your main objective. Killer can't be anywhere anytime, so you have plenty of time to pop some gen even with Ruin + Undying up.
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Ummm there are far more combos than that. Thana sloppy, surge corrupt, dying light thana, devour TOTH etc. Killers already have so many good combos that having one that completely changes the speeds at which gens are able to pop is just unessasery and tedious.
For your cleansing point, well did you take into account that you actually have to find AND run to each different totem, WHILST avoiding the killer as if you're pushed off you loose all your progress, WHILST having to deal witht he fact that undying allows the killer to see when your on a totem. No the killer cant be everywhere at once but its not hard to pressure multiple places and get downs leading to even more pressure.
And for your ds argument, i'm not here to discuss that. Yes maybe ds should be looked at again at some point but this is literally the only perk which is consistently tedeous to good killers, and even then it can be avoided.
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Hang on a minute but if you break the hex totem how can it just deactivate the original totem is gone. It would have to go to anither totem.
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No as in the effects of ruin would not work for another minute or however long.
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1 - I meaning the top 3 combo. At red rank, when playing survivor, it's 90% one of that 3 combo. And Ruin doesn't change the speed are able to pop. That is 80 seconds. The killer can change the gen speed only with Thana and Dying Light. Ruin + Undying only regress it IF there is no survivor that work on it.
2 - I don't know what did you read, but not all, ofc. You are NOT alone in the game. It's 5 totem for 4 survivor (same as generator). You come across them while travelling from a gen to another, or when in chase, or even when you are hooked. You can't expect to do all the work. You need to share the work with your teammate. And, if the killer see you cleansing the totem... so what? If he comes for you that cleanse it, it leave the gens and a probably chase. There are other 3 survivor that are free to do gens and totem.
3 - I brought the combo DS / UB only to compare it with Ruin / Undying. As you said, this is not the topic to discuss that. But, at the same time, they don't require anything to do to made it usable.
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I think that of we were to change this combination, we should just remove the ability to see auras outside of survivors actually doing the totems or have ruin regress slower. Maybe to around 100%/125%/150% faster regression than normal.
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Huh? How about gen rushing perks? How about ds, bt, unbreakable, and dh. Ruin is high risk and high reward. There's nothing wrong with tinkerer, undying, and ruin. If ruin goes slower then it shouldn't be a hex perk. 200% is fair. Unless you want no more killers playing, that means longer waiting and less fun games. It has to be fair and fun for everyone.
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Im about to cause a storm, and im sorry about that. However whenever i hear that totems are too hard, there are too many they take too long, too op etc... All i can think is people are just upset they cant rush gens in 5 minutes and end the game instantly. Or another ruder way to put it "Why do survivors insist on the 4 escape?! One/Two escaping is a win"
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Ok, please calm down, I didn't take any survivor perks into account because this is a post specifically about the Ruin + Undying combo which I have no problem with. Just bring small game and take care of it. I realize that there are some survivor perks that aren't balanced and haven't been balanced for years but that's not what everyone's main attention is on right now. Everyone's attention is on the Ruin+Undying combo which is a problem but less so than some of the survivor perks like DS or OoO. Sorry to argue with you but I just wanted to state my case as well as yours.
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Ds, bt and unbreakable are all anti-tunnel, anti-camp and anti-slug perks which have nothing to do with gen speeds whatsoever. If killers just avoided these playstyles they would hardly come across these perks. Ruin is high risk high reward by itself but undying bascically removes the risk factor out of it as either survivors waste huge amoutns of time cleansing and finding totems or play the whole game with ruin and the killer constantly pushing them off of gens.
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No the problem is a killer could be playing utterly garbage a whole game yet gens are unable to pop due to ruin undying and thus the killer wins the game. Completely takes away from killers who played well in a match or are skillful.
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So the killer is garbage but gens are "unable to pop" meaning he kept.you all off of the gens cuz ruin only works when survivors arent repairing. Sounds like the killer is doing his job and survivors are failing to do theirs
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Uhh,do you honestly think you could compare perks like DS,Unbreakable,Borrowed Time,Sprint Burst etc. with Thana,Sloppy etc. ?
These perks,aren't even remotely as game changing than the survivor meta perks.
Ruin and Undying is fine.It doesn't automatically win the match for killers.
They still heavily rely on RNG and their skill to prioritize whether it is better to down the person he's chasing right now,defend a gen that is about to pop or defend the hex totem a survivor is cleansing in that moment
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You don't need to be actively forcing people off of gens to get ruin value. Hooking people makes others get of their gens and go for the saves, healing requires getting off of gens, doing totems which is what people say to ruin undying haters requires getting off of gens, you see the point?: there are so many situations where survivors need to get off of gens. I ran ruin undying tinkerer on blight and I think i lost less than 1/50 games. I didn't even need to think or try most of the games because ruin basically doubled the length of games, thus i didn't need to worry about roating, making sure i can down people realtively quickly or any other basic killer skills.
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Explain why in more than majority of games ruin undying hasn't even popped by the time two people are dead.
You can't deny ruin undying isn't very strong, why else would literally every streamer and majority of killers be running it? You don't even need to think as much whilst running it. Just chuck on two perks and you don't need to worry about gen regression, you don't need ot worry about taking too long to down someone cause ruin wiil just negate any longer chases which survivors may have with killers.
Yes DS unbreakable bt and that are strong, but gamebreaking? Seriously? Most of survivor's "busted" perks are actually designed to counter scummy killers and scummy plays: camping, tunneling and slugging exessively.
I don't want to get into the ds unbreakable argument cause it seems that's the only method people have of distracting from the insanity of ruin undying but i'll leave you on this one, would you rather have the old ds/bt and exhaustion back?
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Yea adding one insanely strong perk combo won't change anything that some people want balanced with gen speeds or whatever.
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The first point is just anecdotal.I could ask you why in the majority of my games ruin and undying is gone with 4 survivors left alive.
Never denied that that isn't a very strong combo.
And what's even wrong about this?You still have to pressure people of gens,down them AND defend your totems.And you still have be fast at downing them because otherwise you may have saved that 1 gen but lost 3 other gens in the process.
When did i call survivor meta perks gamebreaking?I called them game changing.Huge difference between both.
As much as you dislike it but slugging,camping and tunneling are part of the killers objective.And those perks are designed to hinder the killer doing that
Similiar to that the Ruin and Undying combo exist to make it harder for survivors to complete their objective as well.
Your last point doesn't add anything to the discussion.I could just say that ruin and undying is fine or do you want old ruin or nurse back?
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You don't have to believe me, watch majority of streamers and you will see that their ruin undyign lasts for over 5 minutes most games, more than enough time to secure a win as killer.
There are many things wrong with it. If removing a whole element of killer isn't game breakign enough then idk what is. You don't even need to defend your totems that's what undying does, and if you're that anxious about ruin popping you can see whenever people are on totems u know. You don't even need ot pressure people off of gens if you are a decent killer and able to get downs. Once again ruin does all the side work for you.
Camping is most certainly NOT a killer objective, the emblem system literally punishes you for doing so. Sure you might argue that tunneling and slugging is part of a killer objective but it's switching on easy mode as killer and means you don't need to think as much. Thus ds and bt stop killers from just taking the easy road and add a risk for those who wish to partake in such actions.
Your rebuttal to my last point makes no sense either. No-one is calling for nurse nerfs or ruin by itself nerfs.
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Yes I do see my point. Ruin undying helps keep survivors off gens to improve game time. The fact is.people often dont heal until they have to, many people get the gen they are on popped before going for the save. It os working fully as intended, encouraging a secondary objective.
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Yeah its pretty much always claud or David running see builds imo
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You just said it keeps survivors off of gens, but it punishes survivors for not being on gens? How does that work? That sounds liek something that is indefinitely stacked towards the killer.
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