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Power interaction: survivor perks vs killer perks
For a while now there has been a consistency of killer perks stepping away from actually affecting their powers.
We have seen this with Amanda's ambush.
Legion's frenzy no longer triggering things like Franklin's or sloppy
Most recently huntress lullaby no longer affects doctor's snap out of it
This is all keeping in the face of consistency as much as I do have a problem with some of these if going to take everything more consistent and easier to deal with then I'll put my problems aside.
However how comes certain survivor perks still affect killer powers.
Example Thanatophobia won't change how long it will take for a Survivor to interactive with a killer power however resilience or leader will
Not saying it needs to be changed just asking just asking the reasoning behind it.
Comments
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I dont understand your question...
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Why killer can't have perk that's effect they power but survivors have perks that can effect or even counter killer power
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I can't really explain the skillcheck interactions, but the other ones are are because they're not basic attacks.
Feral Frenzy, Pig's ambush, Demo's shred sure seem closer to a basic attack than a chainsaw or hatchets, but they're all in the same group.
I mean, imagine if Surge activated from anything and not just M1 attacks, it would see some more use like Infectious Fright did (actually I'd really like that as a buff tbh)
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Example?
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For the pig
Stake out works on Jigsaw boxes huntress doesn't
Resilience and Leader can affect jigsaw boxes search speed but thano or dying can't ( personally I 100% understand why this one is the case but it's an example)
As I said in my post I'm not looking for changes just wondering the reasoning behind it.
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I think it mostly has to do with making Perks easier to balance in the long run for Killers. The issue previously was that special ability attacks, when stacking with perks, could be monstrous. In particular, it was old Legion that created the issue. The Devs likely did not take into account all of the hit perks that would mix with Legions ability to STIBBITY STABBITY everyone, and created a mess of Survivors that were completely riddled with debuffs. To fix this, the Devs universally made basic attacks and power attacks separate things, which means they no longer need to really worry about unforeseen interactions that would accidentally make a Killer busted.
Obviously, some Killers would only benefit a little from getting Perk bonuses to their power attacks, and it would seemingly make sense to let them have that. The issue for the Devs, however, is that if they create exceptions at this point, down the road they might create an accidental interaction that turbo-busts a Killer into the stratosphere. They'd likely rather avoid this problem altogether at the cost of fun interactions.
Survivors aren't vexed by this issue because their perks don't create overpowered scenarios that BUFF the Killer. Sure, they have abilities that essentially nerf the Killer, but this is seen as not an issue. Perks that over-buff a Killer are seen as far worse than perks that nerf a Killer.
Also, it IS worth pointing out that SOME Killers have the ability to completely invalidate some Survivor perks. Borrowed Time is completely useless against Killers with little to no Terror Radius, and the Killer can abuse this to ensure that such a common meta perk is always a waste of a slot against them.
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There isn't really a good reason. If anything you'd think it would be the opposite since its a 1v4, IE 1 of the killers perks should be rough equal in strength to 4 of the survivors. However that just isn't the case across the board. Heck even just comparing 1 to 1 most killer perks are weaker than most survivor perks, which as I've said doesn't make any sense.
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I think it makes sense insofar as the objectives of the game. The Killer has a set amount of gens to down the Survivors. With 5 gens and 4 Survivors, mathematically, that means the Killer needs to down about 0.75 Survivors per gen. With that in mind, the same math can be used to technically compare their perks to Survivor perks. As a result, the math actually kinda indicates that Killer perks should actually be LESS potent than Survivor perks. However, they need to be fairly useful throughout the entire match. Survivor perks, on the other hand, more or less need to be strong enough to make a single gen possible to power through before the Survivor gets boned.
Add on top of this the stated (although not explicit) balance as being a 2k, and you further push the math to weaken Killer perks even more in order to meet that stated balance goal.
TL:DR Killers are, in general, not balanced for 1v1. They are balanced for 4v1 with the expectation of a 2k after 5 gens and an exit gate. This means they are technically supposed to be kind of weak with a consistent baseline and spikes in potency.
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"I think it makes sense insofar as the objectives of the game. The Killer has a set amount of gens to down the Survivors. With 4 gens and 5 Survivors, mathematically, that means the Killer needs to down about 0.75 Survivors per gen."
.75 boils down to less than 2 kills so that isn't quite accurate. That is also assuming every single hook is on the same 2 survivors which is highly unlikely not to mention kinda playing like a dick to those guys.
"With that in mind, the same math can be used to technically compare their perks to Survivor perks. As a result, the math actually kinda indicates that Killer perks should actually be LESS potent than Survivor perks. However, they need to be fairly useful throughout the entire match. Survivor perks, on the other hand, more or less need to be strong enough to make a single gen possible to power through before the Survivor gets boned."
This rational is ignoring a multitude of other factors that are extremely significant in the time to time ratio between the sides. Generally speaking every 1 second of time the killer uses is 3 seconds the survivors gain, assuming at least 1 is in chase/downed/getting hooked etc.
"TL:DR Killers are, in general, not balanced for 1v1. They are balanced for 4v1 with the expectation of a 2k after 5 gens and an exit gate. This means they are technically supposed to be kind of weak with a consistent baseline and spikes in potency."
They are currently significantly balanced around 1v1, not 1v4. It isn't even close if you simply look at the math. Compare the time spent finding, chasing, downing, picking up, and hooking + 3 times for a killer to the time for 5 gens. It isn't even a close call. Even if we assume a very good killer and he downs the survivor in sub 15 seconds which is rare, +2 for pickup, +5 for carry, +1 for hook. That's 23 seconds x3 which gives 69 seconds to the survivors. That's being quite generous and it's almost an entire gen. That's also assuming he was already injured...
This is also ignoring all the myriad of second chance perks that extend this time tremendously.
It needs to be balanced around a 1v4. Not in chase, but in time for objectives. This leaves fun chases for survivors while still being able to balance the objective times appropriately.
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Oh, I agree with you. I was more speaking of the intended balance. My math was slightly off, I was more pointing out the general idea. I'm not super math-crunchy at the moment. The INTENDED balance is 4v1 over the course of 5 gens and an exit gate to produce a 2k. That is TECHNICALLY their stated goal. I don't think balance is there atm, but that HAS been their stated goal. It would still equal out to Killer perks feeling less potent than Survivor perks, though they should also be useful throughout the entire match to compensate while Survivor perks are situationally strong but won't allow them to go head-to-head with the Killer. Obviously, that's been an issue of late with the amount of second chance perks, much less other perks that allow Survivors take trade hits and bog down the Killer.
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I guess I don't hold much light to an intended goal that hasn't been met after 4+ years. I feel like it's what they say but don't actually do.
"It would still equal out to Killer perks feeling less potent than Survivor perks, though they should also be useful throughout the entire match to compensate while Survivor perks are situationally strong but won't allow them to go head-to-head with the Killer. Obviously, that's been an issue of late with the amount of second chance perks, much less other perks that allow Survivors take trade hits and bog down the Killer."
I'd make the argument that most the "meta" survivor perks aren't situational at all and their effect is net much more gained than the consistent value of the killer perk all game. The only time the second chance perks don't activate is when the killer plays in a way that loses him the game anyway against good survivors. IE a lose/lose scenario. So even if your second chance perks never activated they still gave you insane value as you forced the killer to play stupid/inefficient. I'd also argue that survivors currently are indeed able to go toe-to-toe with the killer which doesn't make any sense with an "intended" 1v4 balance, as that shouldn't be possible.
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Again, I completely agree with you.
I've almost given up entirely on trying to follow the balance of this game. I can't figure out for the life of me the goals. High level play, casual play, competition vs party game, the design choices of this game seem to borrow and ignore from all of these categories equally.
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Yeah it does seem all over the place. I think their intended balance is more of a party game around rank 10 or below. Which can be very frustrating for more hardcore players that play with a competitive mind set such as myself.
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i believe the Devs want to step away from that in general.
they just removed Slippery Meat's Bear Trap escape chance bonus, as they dont want Survivor Perks to counter a specific killer over others.
so i think we'll see these killer power affecting Survivor Perks disappear over time. its just a question of how long its going to take...
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Yup.
I'd like to play the game casually, but with some competitive meta to allow for flex and improvement (think Rainbow Six Siege). This game, however, isn't remotely designed or balanced for that.
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