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A fair fix to DS for everybody
Comments
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Nah. I think making it work off grabs is fine
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I'd agree except for the "whenever you're unhooked" part. It's fine as a one time get out of jail free, still very strong. (Oh, and maybe drop the haste to 7 seconds, then it's a double m1-boost)
The idea of killing the timer when you take a progressive action, or the killer commits to another player is about as perfect as I think we're gonna get, and I hope that's the direction new eventually go.
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That's not a bad idea if they leave the timer long enough to heal. Can you take a hit 'officially' if the hit puts you to the ground?
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This is not even good fix to DS. Biggest issue most killers and even survivors have with it that you can aggressively use it. Once you have DS active you can run to killers face repairing generator next to him, and this puts killer to lose, lose situation, as he needs to waste time pushing you off of the generator, down you, then waste time slugging as you can use unbreakable, soulguard or alternative is then just eat DS
Simple fix is that DS remains the same but it will de-activate if you go touch a generator. You aren't being tunneled if you can repair gens.
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You should add “whenever you breathe DS deactivates” while you’re at it.
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DS is a good perk and it is needed in the game for the simple reason that without it, your matches’ length will be reduced to a minute in many situations. You just have to play regularly to see it: How many times has someone been farmed off the hook, re-hooked instantly and since the killer now knows you don’t have DS you’re basically dead.
Many people literally get tunnelled out of the game within two minutes with 5 generators left. How is that fair or fun in any way.
No, DS doesn’t need any nerfs and if anything I would pause the timer while you’re on the ground.
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You are not being tunneled if you can repair generators. The least rework DS needs is to disable if you perform such action, otherwise you are just carried with 60 second immunity
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If you have frequent trouble with killers camping you into struggle state and then tunneling you immediately off hook, I suspect you're doing something toxic enough that they want you out of the game.
Do I get camped and tunneled? Sure, once in a great while. But bringing an anti-tunnel perk is just wasting perk slot in at least 90% of my games.
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But that’s the point. You just hooked that survivor. If you hate them so badly that you can‘t stand the idea of them playing the game for 60 seconds more, just camp their body until it runs out.
If it’s such an imperative need that person doesn’t get to play the game he’s paid for just like you, you wait it out and make sure you don’t allow him to participate in the game.
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Without the timer that survivor can still get in a chase and is impossible to pick up and hook.
You already see SWF sweat squads with designated loopers; this will only make that problem worse.
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You make no sense at all. They should use that 60 seconds to find safe location to heal themselves & possibly teammates. Repairing gens in killers face is asking to be "tunneled" as the killer has no option to let you either let you keep repairing it & get cuckolded by DS when survivor presses spacebar. This is not tunneling. Killer has no such perks that reward for failure except maybe NOED. DS works the entire game
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NOED does reward failure. So yes DS has NOED as its killer twin.
And you don’t need to repair in the killers face. In fact that’s stupid. Never once have I seen this unless they were just trolling. People when they’ve been unhooked run away, not start a motor in front of you. Unless I repeat, they’re just trolling at that point.
Don’t use situations that don’t happen to defend something that is a bad idea.
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I tell you what, since you claim these scenarios don't exist i will throw challenge for you.
You face my 4-man SWF group and we will all run DS, this is 8 minutes of immunity total btw. You can use any killer you want, any addons. No offerings.
I will record it and post it to this thread how you manage to avoid DS. Should be easy. Also since you are a good killer i expect you don't camp either but you can if you like, generators will be done anyway 😂😂
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Timer goes double speed if doing objective, half speed if chased, paused if slugged, normal speed otherwise. Easiest fix that makes it legitimately fair.
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... but that’s not a DS problem, that’s a SWF team with voice communication. You just changed the topic to something completely different. Are you okay mate?
By the way I own a horse. Just as another random unrelated piece of info I’m throwing in since we started doing that.
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Right so you refuse to accept my challenge which speaks for itself. If i go look at your comment history i won't find comments abaut you defending SWF? am i correct? DS & OoO are root of the problem which also makes SWF stronger. So deep down you know DS is problematic perk you just like to pretend these scenarios don't exist.
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So you basically admit you get carried by cheating through voice communication. Sadly, I play solo queue so I had to carry myself.
I’m in for anything. Want to play together buddy? We can play survivor, play killer, play anything you want. Unlike you I don’t have a whole team holding my hand through the ranks.
As somebody who cries and whines so much about survivors, you surely make use of it.
DS is fine. It’s one of the few things preventing tunnelling, and the only issue we have here is good SWF squads.
But at the same time, how do you remove playing with friends without the game dying. Because trust me, it would die.
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You are correct. I've played since 2016 and i already ran DS back then. I never handicap myself when i play any game by not running strongest items& perks addons or what ever. But i do still play killer however and DS is horrible when you get DS'ed even if you don't tunnel. I put my own fun above others, just like you and other players we are playing with. But it doesn't change the fact that i understand that DS is fundamentally broken perk.
Also i never said that SWF needs to be removed because it would kill the game, but there are certain perks that make them grossly overpowered like object & DS combo.
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I would 100% support the limitation of DS usage in a SWF team to maybe 1 or 2 players in the squad tops. “Your team reached the maximum allowed number of DS, please select another perk”. Something like that.
Leave solo queue alone though.
Plus, I'm definitely not a goody-two-shoes killer. I will tunnel you out of existence. just looking at my Steam profile you can see it's a salt mine: https://steamcommunity.com/id/helpinghand96/
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That wouldn't be so bad yeah. It's hard to balance as there are chill SWF squads out there. But there are also those bully squad with OoO who make your games miserable
No matter what you run in Solo if you get potato team you will most likely die, DS or not. I used to sweat in solo games so my random team would survive but i don't bother anymore. If none of them are repairing gens i won't bother either. Funny thing is that what the killer does in game never irritates me, but other survivors if they don't repair gens when the killer is facecamping me and they just hide in near bushes doing nothing. I just laugh if the killer got so upset for what ever i done. One last question. What kind of horse do you have?
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what you said can literally be done rn. And you aren’t changing ds to be an actual anti tunneling perk. How is it anti tunnel if the killer can hit me right off hook and just simply wait 60 seconds then pick me up? This discussion is to find a way for it to be fair for everybody not just better for 1 side
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please take your nonsense elsewhere. If a killer is camping and a teammate has to unhook me right in front of him, and the killer hits me and downs me instantly then that certainly is him tunneling me. Him leaving me on the ground is him slugging me. Even if my teammate manages to last a while I have no way to pick myself up besides using a perk. But a lot of the time, the killer hits the guy before he unhooks me then hits me then chases the teammate for. 10-20 seconds. It’s something that happens quite often in this game so obviously you don’t play this game that much, so I’ll stop going back and forth with you. Once you get to rank 1 and play for a couple weeks then you will have at least seen this 1 time. As of right now I AM not being punished, but with your crazy idea of having ds deactivate when another person gets hooked is just you simply being a biased killer main or you simply not using your brain. So obviously you’re just a troll.
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Just because you don’t doesn’t mean that tons of other people don’t either. I assume if I do get camped it’s because I know how to loop in this game so sometimes the killer will be chasing me for a while or a lot longer than he would like. I assume you might not be that good at it and that’s why you don’t get camped or tunneled. That or you’re just a stealthy survivor who doesn’t really come out around the killer
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THAT'S THE POINT. I don't want someone to be punished for BEING tunneled because they are just too good at the video game. If 1 person is not doing gens, IGNORE THEM. Not hard. It's not like kidnapping Victor where it disables the killer's power indefinitely. It's the survivor's choice to be useless all game or to turn off your DS. I don't think you are understanding here. A survivor who is not pressuring gens has no reason to be chased. If I'm a killer, and I see someone trying to get my attention, but I know they might still have DS up, then I just ignore them. Either they do gens, or they are essentially still on the hook.
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Why so?
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Oh, you misunderstand. You get to punish the killer EVERY TIME THEY TUNNEL. The haste is kind of an afterthought, but that is a nice idea
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Okay ideas but with a god-awful delivery. Remember: it doesn't matter how good your ideas are if nobody wants to listen to you. Tone is important, and the tone here is frankly horrendous.
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If you feel the need to make any change, just make it so it only works on the most recently hooked survivor.
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Heres alot I never get hit by ds because I don't tunnel
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Eh, that just seems like an unnecessaryily surv sided design choice. A one and done stun, possibly from each member of my team, isn't a tool to help us play better, it's a way to bully and be invulnerable off the hook.
The strike is decisive. Make yo decision. Make it count. You only get one. Etc...
And if they tunnel? Get better at chases? You'll probably lose them alot, but playing is better than not playing usually.
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IDK. I play both sides, but even as Killer I feel DS is too easy to play around when legitimately and maliciously tunneling. If you are maliciously tunneling, you should be punished. If you don't learn ur lesson, oh well.
Also, how can you bully with this version? Unless all the survivors are not doing gens to keep their DS's up, there's no loophole here. And even if they do, so what? That just shows the Killer that they are all meme-lords and are just trying to have a good time. Who doesn't like games like that? If it pisses them off badly enough, just 4 man slug them to death. I specifically designed this rework to make it god tier against malicious tunnelers but not abusable to innocent killers.
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You know that waste 20 seconds of killer time.
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I have said this before and I'll say it again. Ds is fine but what is not fine is how people use it. The abusers is the problem
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Well, yeah, duh. Lol
These discussions are usually about how to keep the effect the same, and eliminate exploitable mechanics.
Since we have folks who -WILL- abuse it, it helps to make abusing it too inconvenient to do.
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DS is supposed to be an anti-tunneling perk, no? You're not being tunneled if you have time to be on a gen or if the Killer is chasing someone else.
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Don't touch DS. Plz.... Just let it be. And stop nerfing killers.
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I think the best way to take away its exploitable nature would be to disable it on grabs. If the survivor is grabbed when trying to unhook a survivor, they made a bad play. If they're grabbed off a gen, they weren't being tunneled. If they're grabbed off the exit gate, well damn man a DS could be a free escape in that situation, especially if they were healed so hitting them would just leave them injured; there's possibly no counter to DS in that situation for the killer. (God EGC DS is so stupid; you can watch the survivor crawl to freedom or you can pick them up, get stabbed, and they run to freedom. Once DS is in play there there's no counter to it.)
I'm conflicted about vault grabs, here, because vaulting during a chase is a normal part of being chased. However, I recently had a match where someone made an unsafe unhook, I didn't slug the unhooked survivor, and they repaid me (I thought survivors hated getting slugged, so why are you punishing a killer for not doing it?? Survivors, this is why killers slug when you have DS, crap like this.) by throwing themselves into the middle of my chase, vaulting back and forth over a pallet right after the unhooker threw it down, trying to abuse the mechanic that causes killers to usually get a grab rather than a hit in these situations whether that's what the killer wants to do or not. I dunno, vault grabs are kinda dumb, it'd probably be better if the mechanics were changed to get rid of those grabs and just make them normal hits, instead. That would neutralize the entire issue. (Am I forgetting something? Do vault grabs instead of hits serve some sort of purpose?)
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Yeah but it hurts the people who use it normally
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I play both sides and honestly "anti tunnelling" isn't even accurate considering how many times I hit survivors who DS me almost instantly after they escape and vice versa. This is mostly due to it being yriggeted in open areas where there isn't anything to get between me and the other player (whether as killer or survivor). A haste addition of 3 seconds would make this perk much better for anti tunnelling because the killer would have to dedicate another chase rather than it just being an empty location.
You could even go as far as giving them 10 secs of endurance (so 5 secs after the stun is over) on top of that. However the conditions would have to change. Maybe if you use it within the first 15 secs you get endurance + haste, first 30 secs you get just haste, first 45 you get just the stun, after that you get a stun but are also mangled/exhausted/show your aura/block gen with most progress/make a random teammate get exposed for x time/show all auras for x secs/some penalty to them or encouragment to go after another teammate.
TL;DR
60 secs post unhook
Used during the 1st 15 secs: survivor gets 3 secs haste and 5 secs endurance
Used within 30s: s gets 3 secs haste
Used within 45 secs: s stuns killer for 3 seconds
After that: 3 second stun but also killer moves 20% faster for 7 seconds as long as they are not chasing the obsession (which the d-striker is) or a pebalty to the d-striker or shows killer the aura of teammates.
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oh I know bro, I know lol. I’ve wanted a haste option for the longest time now. It’s too often where the killer catches right up to you afterwards. but nice work!
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Well, ideally, if they're not exploiting the unfair bits of the mechanics, they won't be affected. Right now the only thing that stops unsavory behavior is basically a gentlemens agreement. Most folks just wanna codify it.
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lol DS is a different perk at different levels. at low to mid ranks its a defensive perk. At red DS is an offensive perk used to exploit and create a lose lose situation for the killers. Essentially you can sit on a gen and do your best to be dragged off it to utilise the stun.
Tunneling and camping is and always has been fueled by bad survivor play that you will call "altruism" whereby you are farmed by selfish survivors setting you up. This will result in you being farmed by the killer. But because the killer "ruined" your fun you lose sight of the Nea that just farmed you trying to get WGLF stack.
Camping and tunneling is only a winning strategy when survivors try to get that iridescent alturism emblem.
Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on0 -
right, might as well just delete DS. They should revert DS to how it was before the first nerf.
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won't work, killers can exploit chase mechanic
DS is fine as it is btw, the only issue to it is being able to do gens with it active, simply making it deactivate after repairing a gen for a total of 3 seconds is enough to balance the perk.
edit: why do people keep coming up with this idea? it is so common and exploitable that you'd think players would look into if it has been suggested already.
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Hey OP,
I like the idea of DS pausing during chase. That is a very very VERY good idea! 60 seconds is fine, with a timer pause during chase.
I don't think it's fair to keep the timer paused when in the dying state. If the killer has the patience to wait 1 full minute, the other 3 survivors are supposed to be slamming gens to punish this kind of behavior.
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Since I've yet to see any reasonable rework here, why don't they just handle its balance like every other perk and just introduce another perk to counter it instead of coming up with a real solution?
Maybe something that slows down or applies the broken/hemmoraged/mangled/blind/etc status effect on a survivor that breaks free from your grasp for x amount of time or something.
I mean if it's okay to tell survivors that if they 'don't like x perk, use x perk to counter it' then the same should be said about the killer. Not that it needs a perk to counter it because DS is already useless outside of EGC because it's so easily bypassed anyway that it barely qualifies as anti tunnel. It's quintessentially anti tunnel, but it's really not and it's in a hard place of being completely neutered or too OP if changed in any of these previously implied ways.
Why are people still complaining about DS in 2020 anyway? Do we not recall old DS? It's an absolute husk of its former self and it's either completely useless or an absolute lifesaver, there's not really any in between. It's fine where it is because it doesn't guarantee anything. In fact there's also a possibility you miss the skill check and render it a complete waste of a perk slot.
If you use it too early in the game you can still get tunneled through it. Decent killers know how to avoid it entirely or just eat it early so you don't have it during end game. If you use it late game it can be the difference between life and death for you and potentially your team, especially during EGC although I'm personally of the opinion that if you hadn't already been hit with their DS before this point in the game that you already weren't doing too hot to begin with.
If you were to make it so that someone else getting downed disabled it, you would get killers that slug you and down someone else in quick succession to deny any usage of it, come back and hook you and guarantee that tunneling will always work in their favor for those who say it's a 'losing tactic'. This is especially true of killers with one shot abilities such as, but not limited to, a face camping Bubba that can insta down both people should you dare a rescue or get caught trying.
If you make it so that touching a gen nullified it there would have to be an amount of time spent on the gen, like 3s or so, to confirm that it's a commitment to a gen and not just you tapping it to stop it frol regressing. Let's not forget this wouldn't effect a runner, they spend their time wasting the killers time anyway so not touching gens wouldn't stop them from doing what they would normally otherwise do and you propose they basically get old DS.
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The problem I think is that even though we all know it's only a 'segment' of the killer community. They try to be the loud voice. They point out how "broken" DS is because they got an undeserved stun while claiming that they played "fair". Even though there is virtually no way for the game itself to recognize what is an intentional tunnel vs a non-intentional tunnel. Even though they are allowed to tunnel beyond getting DS stunned indefinitely. They talk about abusing ONE perk because survivors decide to play reckless, while they themselves abuse all 3 Built-in mechanics Camping/Tunneling/Slugging. But everything on their end is peachy, right? It's actually quite amusing.
I play both roles and it doesn't take rocket science to understand how if one survivor who has been recently unhooked and tries to recklessly save another.... you being aware of when and who you've hooked prevents someone from being able to use it because you can slug them or wait at the locker for the remainder of their timer (which is no longer 60 seconds).
Like I said before, they shouldn't touch DS until they first actually do something about the Camping and Tunneling and how you can turn that into an abusive mechanic.
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