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Even out difficulty of survivor and killer adepts.
Normalise these stupid achievements by making BOTH sides require ONE pip.
Survivor is brainlessly easy and doesn't require even participating in the match.
Killer is intense, made worse by depending on the AWFUL emblem system which terrorises killers for using their powers as intended. Higher skilled players are already playing against higher skill coordinated players most times without ANY form of stalling and thanks to this awful system, also need a better performance than lower rank players. This relies incredibly highly on survivors making mistakes, not the killer's performance.
Even these out by taking survivor adepts and making them harder by requiring one pip, and reduce the difficulty of killer by requiring one instead of two. They are adept achievements, adept means to have skill or be proficient, not to be an absolute master with perfect gameplay AS WELL AS lucking out on a terrible squad of survivors.
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Come on, these achievements went from one of the most fun, and fulfilling parts of the game which rewarded SKILL to one of the biggest sources of frustration and absolute reliance on LUCK.
Have a look at the stats on steam, Adept Demogorgon is sitting at 0.2% completion 3 months later. These achievements really need to be changed to suit what they actually ask for.
People have been annoyed by these they were changed, and it's not like there's any legitimate reason they cannot be altered, as many achievements have been on all platforms in the past.
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It's really hard to change achievements on consoles. As an example, we'd like to change Skilled Huntress to be 20 shots like it is on PC as 100 is way too many of these to ask for. But they ask us, "But is it still possible to attain these?" We say, "Yes, but it will suck." And they say, "If it's still possible, you can't change it."
Other achievements have been changed because they became literally impossible to attain because of gameplay changes.
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Thanks for taking the time to reply.
In that case, is there any reason, other than consistency, that new adepts are still using the merciless stipulation? Why not release new ones as "kill all 4 survivors by any means as X with their perks?"
Also in the past the original adepts for just unlocking perks on the bloodweb were changed while certainly still possible. Is there no way it couldn't at least be requested on the grounds that the achievements no longer pertain to what they required due to terminology changes?
Post edited by anarchy753 on7 -
I haven't been on the project long enough to know for sure about the old adepts (that was a long time ago!). But it's possible that was before we were on consoles. Steam doesn't care, which is why we were able to change Skilled Huntress to 20 there from 100.
About new adepts, we wish to keep these consistent across the board. It's possible we could change what "Merciless" means, but then it's a matter of priority.
I agree these are unbalanced in terms of how hard they are to get compared to Survivors's adepts, so I hope to address this at some point in the future. I just can't make any promises about it.
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Thanks, you're the best.
Edit: Looking through patch notes it looks like console always used the 4k (then merciless) and PC was updated with Clown to change the old ones to match.
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No, you are.
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I got adept Yui yesterday................. The Oni dropped me on the hatch....... EZ
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I got adept Yui and Grim Pilgrimage because the Doctor literally camped the basement while 2 people basement-bugged died. They had kindred too so we saw him the whole time in the doorway.
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The original meaning of Merciless Killer was killing all four survivors. It was just a message at the end of the match and wasn't tied to the pipping system as that was based on bloodpoints.
In patch 1.5.3 the message became tied with the pipping sysyem. You still needed to kill all four to receive a Merciless. The first Emblem system update marked the first time you could receive a Merciless Victory without killing all four survivors. But until recently, (Ghost Face or Demogorgon patches), a bug allowed killers to unlock adept with a Ruthless as long as they killed all four survivors.
The requirements fot killer adept achievements has gone away from what it original was intended to be. Because someone long ago wrote down the message, Merciless, instead of the meaning, kill all four survivors, killer's adept has become increasingly more difficult to obtain. Especially the higher your rank.
So when it comes to chaging the achievement it's already been changed several times. Letting it unlock with a 4k shouldn't be huge issue when it was the original requirement when the achievements were made.
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You are correct, but changing what Merciless means, if done properly, will require more work than just reverting it to 4k. The idea would be not only to change the requirement (to whatever it becomes), but also to clarify to the player what's going on with it.
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Loophole: The Adept achievement description says "Merciless Victory."
At the end of the match, the killer ranking says "Merciless Killer." They're similar, but NOT the same, therefore, you don't HAVE to keep them the same.
So define "Merciless Victory" as a 4k, any 4k. Define "Merciless Killer" as achieving that rank on the emblems score. If consoles can't be changed so that the achievement unlocks for anything other than (in pseudocode) MercilessVictory=True, then redefine MercilessVictory=True as being from 4ks, and add a new variable MercilessKiller that applies to all the emblem details.
(I know you probably won't listen and there may well be good reasons why this won't work but I had to say it anyway).
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I can't get games as killer enough to actually want to do them regardless of rank. Since i'm an adult who works a lot, when i can actually play... the wait time is usually 20 minutes. No thanks.
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Yes, please try to prioritize modifying the killer adept achievements to require less ridiculous requirements. You either struggle through dozens of matches trying to luck into the perfect combo of over-altruistic survivors that are allergic to generators or eventually depip enough or have the rank reset grant you a slightly easier chance to get Adept by lowering the sub-pip requirements to get Merciless.
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This might sound unfair to certain console players, but, if changing the achievement isnt possible for them, why not just changing them for everyone else? You already have discrepancies with certain achievements, why not accept that "inconsistencies" isnt too bad of a thing?
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They probably don't want to give console players reason to think that they don't care about the console experience, especially since so many already seem to believe that.
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Exactly, console has some easier achievements than PC anyway.
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If you cant change the already existing achievements, then can you at least STOP doing the same achievement for every new killer that will suck to try and achieve?
Or are you gonna keep doing the same *as a single player against 4 other players, kill all 4 survivors while using 3 unique perks that are most likely gonna suck and wont be as good as Ruin or PopGTW, oh, and also, you need to get a merciless victory, which means if survivors are gonna be this bad to the point of all 4 of them getting downed at the beginning of the match, you're gonna have to let them wiggle out and extend the match as much as possible for the sake of getting all 4 red emblems, and dont forget that hatch exists, if the last survivor gets out, screw everything you've tried to achieve so far*
Or are you gonna keep sacrificing fun for the sake of consistency?
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"Sacrifice fun for the sake of consistency" is practically BHVR's motto. ;) Except, of course, when it's consistency between the level of difficulty of adept achievements between killer and survivor, because that's too much consistency I guess?
But yeah... when you think about it, "Merciless" became a dumb name for it once the emblem system came into play, because often to get a double pip (particularly at higher ranks) you have to play MERCIFULLY. Make sure everyone gets two hooks, make sure not to tunnel (getting hit with DS loses you points), definitely don't Mori, make sure the game lasts long enough that you get enough Chase points, basically give the survivor's a chance, i.e., mercy. Everyone knows that a 4K in the first minute or two of the match, which would probably count as actually BEING a Merciless killer, won't get you that rank, so why keep the name? And at the brown ranks, it's actually possible to get merciless while giving a survivor the hatch... a merciless killer while giving mercy. I've done it because I was scrupulous about making sure every survivor got two hooks before I killed anyone, and gave the last the hatch. (At low-number ranks you usually need that last kill, of course, but the point remains, you can get merciless while being merciful)
Call it Devout Killer maybe, because you're playing the game the Entity wants, drawing out the game. Then, again, you can leave Merciless as a category strictly for 4Ks. If you're merciless and devout, you did an awesome job. If you're merciless and entity is displeased, you didn't give the entity (or the other players) satisfaction of a good game. If you're Devout but not Merciless, you played a great game but one player survived, your heart wasn't in it.
As for the adept achievement... Even if you can only do it on PCs and not consoles, making the killer adepts closer to survivors is still reducing inequality. Currently, all killers (PC and console) are suffering in this regard compared to all survivors. Change it, and console killers may suffer compared to all survivors and PC killers... so you've reduced the amount of people suffering inequality. And, you get to say to those console people "Yeah, sorry, console won't let us change the achievements, you'll have to complain to them we can't do anything about it" (how ridiculous is it that they won't let you have control over your game's achievements? People SHOULD be complaining to them) which is at least ironclad rather than having to tell people "yeah we could reduce inequality but we can't do it for everyone so we're not going to do it at all, because consistency!" And if you ignore the consistency-is-king mantra and just make NEW killer adept achievements 4k-based then the level of people bothered will continue to drop as people (gradually) get the OLD adept achievements the hard way and not have to suffer the inequality anymore on the NEW ones.
But consistency, I guess.
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That was similar to what I've been thinking recently. It's strange that you CAN get merciless killer while being merciful.
If they did just rename what "double pip" was called, merciless could be a little additional quantifier for a 4k. It would both be a very simple solution to implement without touching the achievements, while also increasing the clarity of merciless as Almo said. (ie. Merciless = you gave no mercy and killed everyone, rather than just 'performed well.')
On the topic of consistency, survivor still only has "Sacrificed" and "Escaped," it would be nice to get a bit of an update to those as well. Since their results and pipping are different, it could be prefixes like "Triumphant Sacrifice/Escape" for a double pip, "Worthy Sacrifice/Escape" for a pip, "Scarce Sacrifice/Escape" for a safety and "Inglorious Sacrifice/Escape" for a depip.
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From the way the Deathslinger achievement is worded, it looks like there were no changes to the way adept achievements are being handled. We at least got that slight Gatekeeper buff with the Ruin nerf, but I doubt that'll make much of a difference.
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(didn't read through the entire topic so it's probably been said by many people)
It makes no sense that survivor adept is literally just escaping using their 3 perks, you don't even need to do anything aside escaping. You could crouch in a corner letting everyone do the work and jump out the hatch and there you go. But on killer, you have to basically chase people long enough to get chase points, hit them enough for brutality, hook them enough, and hope they don't suicide on hook because then you get boned on sacrifice points.. all that using the 3 perks native to that killer, which often don't work too well together or with that specific killer's power.
For the sake of consistency, "Kill all survivors by any means necessary as X using their perks" would be closer to "Escape as X using their perk" than "play a super perfect game as X using their perks and hope no one suicides on hook or anything else that'll bone you"
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Bringing this back up because I should have gotten Adept Twins last night, except that Devout emblems are currently bugged, so I could not get quad iri even though I met the textual requirements for devout (and thus, the achievement). It's ridiculous that every time a new killer comes out, I have to sweat beyond belief for several games just because I'm in red ranks in hopes of getting 4 perfect emblems (except when there's some bug with an emblem, which makes it impossible to actually get quad iri and thus, the achievement).
I even made a suggestion in the PTB forums to have them start making new killers not require a merciless victory, but apparently that was ignored with the Twins. I'd like to enjoy this game when trying to get achievements and not have to deal with toxic requirements as well as the already toxic playerbase.
Even if you're dealing with publishers like Microsoft and Sony saying you can't change the text of achievements, change Merciless Victory to be something other than tied to a double pip. You changed the requirements before without changing the text when you introduced the emblem system, you can do so again.
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Changing things just on one platform but not all is a dangerous slippery-slope I doubt the devs wish to deal with, regardless of the reasons why.
Now there'd be precedent some would point to and say "look here and here you did it before" whenever a change is brought up but not possible atm due to Sony and/or Microsoft.
The devs have consistently made changes on all platforms all at the same time. This change would rightly be viewed as splitting the playerbase in favor of some platforms, and indeed give credence to the notion "they clearly don't care as much about consoles" and the like.
The root of this problem is with restrictions by Sony and/or Microsoft. For once let's help out the devs, and direct our efforts toward those two and untie the devs' hands here.
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That's why they should get around the Sony/MS achievement restrictions by changing the internal game definition of Merciless Victory, so that the achievement text stays the same, so those publishers should still be happy.
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I mean no disrespect, as I'm sure working on the game is a lot harder than the vast majority of us think, but this sounds like a pretty weak excuse to just not change it, as far as I'm concerned.
If a survivor can get their adept without even completing their objective (ie; hiding all match and escaping, or using a key for an early escape), the killer should get their adept from a 4K. Instead, it's insanely difficult by comparison due to the awfully strict emblem system.
Change it so a 4K = Merciless, but Merciless =/= double pip. Is it really that complicated?
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I'm still very much in favour of just renaming the "No One Escaped" score event at the end of the match to "Merciless Victory."
Then a double pip can be renamed to whatever they like and the achievements would all be better.
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What about the nurse achivement "From the void she kills." "In a public match, chain 3 or more blinks and land on a survivor, grabbing him successfully." Surely this achivement is changable... To start with you cant chain more than 3 blinks so the "or more" part is impossible, and chaining 3 blinks needs an addon that makes the nurse really weak. If it was changed to chain 2 blinks surely that would be more reasonable since nurse cant do massive blink chains anymore. Such a big change to the game surely the console achivements would let that achivement change since it is so badly outdated.
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