Twins = slugging

I think we may see a shift in survivor perk meta, such as flip flop, for the people, buckle up, iron will, blood pact, slippery meat, soul guard, hope, and unbreakable (well, we already see that plenty). Perks that are used less may be more viable when slugging is more common. Although I do see the frustration

Look, I know that's annoying to be slugged, but that is a problem caused by a heavily survivor meta.

Just think about the time the killer has. It is 4 survivors, a gen gets done in 80 seconds base, no tools no perks.

The Killer has walk to a spawn point, locate survivors, hit them once (expecting they can actually loop), deal with the exaustion perk, hit them twice (again, expecting they can actually loop), pick up animation (ignoring time checking for saves), taking them to a hook, hook them. Without camping or tunneling they have to do this 12 times to kill all 4 survivors. Now without taking in account BT,DS,Soul Guard,Adrenaline.

Even the hatch is survivor sided, they can do no gens, and the killer HAS to slug the third survivor so the forth won't get a Free win.

Killers just don't have enough time to play nice anymore, they have to be efficient.

Not even talking about a Key match, that one kill is basically doing a gen for the survivor team.

Even truetalent, that thinks that slugging is boring, is saying that behavior is pushing the meta to become this, 1 hooking and 2 hooking survivors.

If the Killers had more time to spent they could give survivors more chances. Nerfing Gen speed and making the maps smaller would be a good start.

@Freki

Slugging being a built in mechanic that can easily be abused is what the problem is.

This is the first game I have played where the killer can virtually slug when/as many times as they want with little to no downside.

This is also a problem when it just guarantees that the “meta” will never change. Which as far as I am concerned, based on complaints in these forums and even in-game ones killers feel that UB is more common than not.

Slugging should have a built-in down side when done excessively, not just because it’s annoying but because it’s healthy for the game too.

First of all Unbreakable by itself is not a problem and not complained about on its own. it is limited in how it work and is still a good balance, it is only complained about when combined with DS where you can SLUG someone and have to wait for one minute before picking up and if left alone the unbreakable lets the survivor get back up and continue on. sure that's how the interaction works but it's weaponized by people that get off of hooks to block the killer from going after the one that removed them from the hook. and this is what is complained about and is there. now there are multiple ways to get yourself up and unbreakable is just one such tool. the complaints on the new killer is not really about it's slugging by most but by the bugs that prevents people from learning best ways to play the killer. this killer is also a body blocker too but no one has brought this up on the forums it's all about sluging this or slugging that. body blocking for short periods are allowed ie: survivors blocking the hook while the survivor on shoulder wiggles free, a bubba or billy that revs the chainsaw followed by a strike are ok, but to block in and suck everything by a mikie for T3 is too long. they expanded the basement stair because of killers blocking the escape of survivors so now this means they can be blocked again, but no one brought this up here it's only oh no!!!! I can't stand being slugged! it's BORRRRRRRING! this is the problem people are looking for problems only and not ways to help the fixes to be put in.

No unbreakable alone is not toxic or overpowered, but combined with other perks it can be part of overpowered builds. and nothing is done to the survivors meta but the killer's meta is always changing, why is that? because too many whine here.

again the rules do not preclude slugging, nor does it preclude combining unbreakable with ds. and as I said unbreakable is not complained about by it's own, as it is not specifically overpowered. if you want to talk about unbreakable being complained about you might need want to talk about it in the way it is being complained about. I will not tell it to anyone because that is not my job, but does it matter if the killer does this at 5 gens remaining or at 0 gens remaining when it is not against the rules? use proper information when you are complaining here and move from complaining to being supportive and working to find a way to fix it and the devs will listen but might not agree with you and thus not do anything with your information as is their right. there is no reason to worry, and yes i've been slugged many times and it is irritating, but you know what? i move on and speak my mind to that killer if I can and move to the next game that is all.

@Freki

I am talking about UB in the way that I have experienced it. Just because people have issue with how it combines with DS does not mean people who often complain about UB, aren’t complaining because their excessive slugging didn’t pan out as much as they wanted.

I am not arguing the “rules” behind what you can/cannot do. I am fully aware that your only timer on “Slugging”, is practically the survivors’ dying state bar. No one is arguing that it isn’t in accordance to the game’s rules.

The point is that it shouldn’t be possible to slug as much or whenever you feel like it, without any downside. Because in actuality survivors have to bring PERKS to counter a BUILT-IN mechanic, which can become borderline abused and more so with killers whose powers are encouraged to do just that.

I already expressed my concerns for allowing to happen. Just because it’s not against the rules doesn’t make it any less unbalanced.

I've been playing a few games with the twins and their whole issue in regards to slugging seems to be more fundamental to the design of the killer than anything else. The only way I can describe playing them is that you aren't controlling a killer, you're controlling two half-killers. Playing them is really slow which isn't a bad thing but it's so sluggish a lot of the time, especially when switching back to charlotte and because of how easy it is to kill victor people naturally wanna get the best use out of him as possible so they turn to slugging to get their value since victor can't do anything else other than attack and act as a radar, Charlotte does nothing on her own so all your value comes from Victor. Balance wise the twins are really tough to make them fun to vs and decently strong to play as and the only way to get rid of the slugging is to straight up nerf them because unfortunately the twins, by design are a slugfest. So the only other alternative is a full on rework really.

It's funny to see people responding to completely legitimate criticism of a new killer, from a survivor perspective, with statements like "deal with it."

The point isn't that rules are being violated or even that the Twins are necessarily too strong or unfair. The point is that the mechanics of the killer encourage (actually require, honestly, if you want to do well) gameplay that is not fun for 4 of the 5 people in the game. The Twins have an unparalleled ability to facecamp survivors and Victor is best used as a slugger/snowballer, and is very powerful at this assuming he is used correctly and the player doesn't leave him exposed constantly by going for risky lunges.

Anyone who cares about the overall health and longevity of the game should care that 3 out of 4 of the most recently released killers are considered unfun to play against by a large number of survivor players. Considering, again, that this game needs 4 survivor players for every killer, that is not a good precedent.

You're assuming a lot, friend.

Oni is fine. Spirit is not fun to play against. A god Nurse also isn't much fun to play against but they're so rare it doesn't matter.

Iri heads and ebony moris are obviously broken and anyone who says otherwise isn't arguing in good faith.

You know what else, though? Keys are broken and unfun. DS as it currently exists is broken and unfun. There are other perks, especially when stacked by SWFs, that are not fun.

Thing is, everyone who's paying attention already knows all that.

I'm not interested in pointing out, ad nauseum, what everyone already knows.

What I am interested in is pointing out this trend in killer design that I believe is going to slowly throttle the game if it continues in the long term. I think that keys and moris will be relatively simple to rework when the devs get around to it. Plenty of people have already pointed out commonsense changes to Spirit that would make her a little more interactive. Perks like DS should also be relatively simple to make a little less exploitable, even if some survivors will be salty.

But deathslinger, pyramid head, and now the twins have all been released with killer powers that make them unfun and noninteractive to play against for survivors (note I'm not saying they're necessarily "overpowered", just unfun). That's something I think is worth discussing. I play plenty of killer myself, this isn't about one side vs the other for me--it's about the health of the game and ensuring both sides have a good time, which is totally possible, it just doesn't seem to be something that's being prioritized as much as it should be.

You type a lot of words, but in the end you're refusing to engage with the substance of what I'm saying, and instead you're offering all these whataboutisms and the classic "if you don't like, it leave." I'm not actually ready to leave the game, thanks, I still find it fun--it's just certain killers I don't enjoy playing against as a survivor, which is what we're talking about here. Is it your position that anyone with anything critical to say about the game should just stop playing? That's not a very productive attitude, friend.

I'm sorry to say, but in my experience--and again, nobody has anything but personal/anecdotal experiences to draw on here, it's not like anyone's taken a poll of the entire playerbase--survivors playing at a reasonably high level don't enjoy playing against the killers I've mentioned, for one very simple reason.

They take chases, which are the primary form of interactive gameplay you have as a survivor, and make them far less interactive (read: less options, less mindgames, less to do) than other killers. I'm glad you manage to find it in you to take even broken mechanics like iridescent heads and find something to have fun with, but do you really think you're anything but a tiny minority in that sense? Similarly, I'm glad you can play against killers like deathslinger and pyramid head who have no real counterplay in chases and practice your skills of "avoidance and escape." There are many players--killers included--who, to put it very plainly, despise stealth gameplay. If you look at the kind of content that people like to watch, which I think is a decent metric for what keeps people interested in the game, I don't think you'll find many stealthy highlight compilations. You'll find good chases and jukes. People aren't putting thousands of hours into this game to hide in a bush.

And we haven't even touched on the fact that the Twins are actively encouraged to facecamp or at least proxy-camp every single hook by design. Are you seriously going to argue that that's healthy for the game?

I'm not sure us continuing to discuss these issues is going to be productive, because my experiences and knowledge of the game and playerbase is telling me that these killers are unfun to play against for the reasons I've outlined, and yours are telling you the opposite. In the absence of hard data, we're at an impasse.

That said, from everything I've heard, seen, watched, and experienced, I think how I feel is more in line with how the majority of the playerbase feels. But since I've got no way to convince you and you have no way of convincing me, I'll leave it at that.

This is a good point, and coordinated teams have more they can do against the Twins, but good luck in solo Q where red ranks are dropping pallets on Legions in frenzy. Also, I've seen a lot of Twins running sloppy and ruin undying, which pretty much counters the "just heal" strategy. None of this addresses the fact that the Twins, when played optimally, camp or proxy camp every single hook.

Also, if survivors are "dodging" Victor with any regularity that Twins player is doing something wrong.

Put a farther limit to Char's hook range switch and make it so Victor will despawn if a Survivor is hooked too close to him. Victor needs to be able to take down locker hiding players, he's already running the risk of being squashed or downing someone too far from Char.

Ruin/Undying has not effect on healing, so I don't know why that was brought up. It's far more powerful on higher mobility Killers like Blight or Spirit. Sloppy helps Victor track. He can't see scratch marks... another reason to bother healing. Solos should bring medkits anyway, I do.

so they will slug and then hook. there already is a a time limit victor can be out and not controlled, there are several ways that survivors can get victor to go back including the kick, pallet and after 45 seconds of being on their back. you want to hamstring someone even more? wow.

I did not say anyone with anything critical to say about the game should leave but instead I said if you were bored with the game then leave. why play a game that is boring to you? It seems that you are the one that is not being open minded. You can be critical of the game and still be respectful (people are very disrespectful here on the forums, please note I did not say you were), you can make suggestions without being flippant, and discuss things without wanting to insult others. I did not insult you and yet you are the one telling me how I am thinking. If no one has anything but anecdotal information then you are one too. What is fun for you may not be fun for me and the same vice versa, you can not dictate to me what fun should be like and I never did that what so ever I only talked about what I know and have seen here on the forums.

Speaking of Stealth game play and what people find exciting to watch that is a laugh though because I love stealth game play. why? because it's a challenge to stay unnoticed. and there is an emblem that even talks about not being seen by the killer and it only takes into account the idea of winning a chase yet how is that "not seen" by a killer. I will go in, save, heal, gens, totems, get in chases etc as I see it is needed. many times the killer is hooking someone on the other side of the match and i'm on a gen, when i get off the gen to go safe they are almost immediately rescued and i then have to go back to my gen. then I have to move to another gen once that one is done and move on. As killer the only stealth that irritates me is the fact that two people decide that they should no longer further the game and they stealth and take the game hostage at that point because a killer that isn't doc can't flush them out. Now about people "WATCHING" the game, that's great they want to see chases, jukes and mind games but I don't play by who is watching me play I play the way I feel is necessary. oh and about stealth again when it's the final one AND the killer there is the hatch open that the killer can close to push the game to a closure because of EGC but when there are 2 and they aren't working on gens anymore then why should it be ok to hold the game hostage just to try and win?

and you know your feelings is inline with over 30K or more of the player base? or just the ones that post here? and to be honest I've seen streamers talk about this and they don't camp or proxy camp the hooks and they do just fine with the twins. I've got over 3K hours in the game and as you said I feel my ideas are inline with over half the player base because they mirror many people that talk here, many streamers and people that I know. as to camping, did I say it was healthy? I did not I said it was allowed just like slugging, just like tunneling and honestly if I need to put pressure on someone i'm going to do what I need to in order to bring the game to a close, I personally don't see what face camping does though unless you have insta downs to multiply your hooks. proxy camping is a lovely term, I will hook someone and if I suspect someone is in the area I will check all around and then finally leave when i clear the area. That is just being smart not camping what so ever yet I'm a camper when I do that. I think you and I can claim to be in tune with over half the player base but it's a baseless claim because you don't know the mind of over 30,000 people and the number here on the forum number about 1-10% of the active player database. I placed my claim solely to show you how ridiculous that claim is, not that I think that to be hones and I showed how it is here as well. I think you may have hit the nail on the head saying that it's almost pointless to talk to someone who won't consider opinions of other people which you are not doing when you summarily dismiss mine by saying that i'm not engaging, that I'm saying whataboutisms (as you say) and totally and utterly intentionally misreading my statement to make your statements and opinions more truthful. You will notice that I did not do that with you I just discussed your points with my counter points. enjoy!

Balanced?

It's DEAD by Daylight. Not SURVIVE by daylight.

Survivor mains crying about balance when y'all have swf and 3rd person perspective. The killer is all alone.