The Way People Play with The Twins Proves an Interesting Point.
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This is correct. There's a mindset that somehow, if a survivor dies early in the game it's "unfair". But if all 4 survivors escape and the killer doesn't get a devout emblem, well, ce la vie.
Survivors who gen rush can easily get 2 generators done by the time you are on your second hook, when done properly. That's nearly half the game over. Mess up, let a chase go a bit long, and you can see 3 gens done. The best way to combat this is to force a survivor out before you get to 1 gen left.
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I'd be okay with that too if done well, but I think that would likely cause some uproar and for good reason. If they added base game protections against these behaviors that would effectively be a substantial nerf to the killer side, meaning they would probably need to be made up for with some corresponding buffs to the killer side. That's tough to do in a fair way, though, since some killers overwhelmingly benefit from camping/tunneling/slugging over others. For example, power surge killers like Oni would seriously suffer from not being able to slug while killers like Pyramid Head that can rapidly send people to cages instead of slugging wouldn't be affected much. Similarly, killers like Huntress, Trapper, and Bubba with a really strong basement game would be really punished by anti-camping measures, while mobile killers like Blight and Billy wouldn't take much of a hit. So, just buffing the killer side in general probably wouldn't be enough to balance the game for this; they'd probably need to give individual attention to a number of killers, which would obviously be a massive work effort.
I don't mind the perk approach for this reason. It'd be one thing if 1) camping/tunneling/slugging were destroying the game and needed to be eradicated at all costs, and 2) that you're extremely vulnerable to / likely to engage in these behaviors without running the perks that directly counter / discourage them, but I don't think that's really the case. I think it's enough to discourage these behaviors, and perks still have a meaningful effect even when people aren't running them. You could be running four meme perks and the killer would still have to worry about picking you up due to DS, would be more likely to hit the rescuer instead of the survivor that just got unhooked for fear of BT, etc. These perks simply existing is enough to disincentivize "unhealthy" behavior.
Edit: Tunneling might be a bit easier to discourage in the base game since I don't see that benefiting some killers over others as much as camping and slugging do. Weak killers might feel like they have to rely on it more, but the benefit is large to all killers if they have an opportunity.
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Now that I'm thinking about it, slugging isn't too much of an issue. As long as it's only for a short duration. There will always be killers who 4 man slug just to let them bleed out.
Plus the tunneling/camping protections I'm thinking of wouldn't be too obtrusive.
Basically base game DS would have deactivation conditions such as healing, repairing, getting into a locker, and another survivor gets hooked. That way, the killer would legitimately have to go out of their way to tunnel you. But the DS would have 2 uses ( because you can only be rescued from the hook twice. )
The base game camping protection is a little more of a complex issue. So what I'm thinking is, when the killer stays in the radius of the hook for an extended period ( not enough to get to phase 2) the hook timer would slow down, then eventually stop entirely, if the killer remains within the radius. When the timer completely stops, the hooked survivor will automatically get borrowed time applied to them when they are rescued.
Edit: the camping system would not apply if you are in a chase within the radius of the hook.
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Killers don't want to tunnel, camp, or slug. It's boring.
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Several things here.
-I wouldn't necessarily say I'm complaining. The issue of slugging, camping and tunneling is something that is talked about and ad nauseum in this forum, but whenever it crops up, only punishment is requested, which I think is not helpful or constructive because it ignores why killers would engage in these tactics, it assumes only malice or lack of skill, which is not true as far as i've observed.
-I understand these tactics are not a Twins exclusive issue. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in the original post. I just use the Twins as an example because I've seen a ton of Twin gameplay and they seem to be almost always locked into these tactics, because other tactics were shut down by game pacing, which is now also reflected in posts people are making complaining about the Twins.
My intention with the post is to analyze a reason why these tactics happen in the first place, and while I will say, that indeed there are killers that engage in these tactics out of malice, I argue that the main reason a sizeable chunk of killers do is because they do not have the time or the tools to deal with current game pace by chasing survivors over and over, even if they're chases are very very quick, I'm not defending people who can't end chases until they have BL3 and refuse to leave it. Seriously, you cant go a single killer video or post without someone suggesting "oh you should have slugged here, tunneled this person here" these tactics are effective, the problem is they don't seem the best for survivor experience.
-Imagine for a moment that that Spirit player started like this, a person with the intention of giving survivors multiple chases, avoiding tunneling or slugging people, trying to 3 hook everyone. Eventually after several hundred games, this person realized just how quickly gens can go if given the chance and so unless they're allowed to, they will instinctively go for these tactics immediately to balance the game for themselves from the get go, because it's much easier to wind down once the game is under control than trying to ramp up when you've lost control of the game. I wouldn't necessarily blame a Spirit player even if Spirit is a killer that can mostly compete with gens...
-I do not advocate necessarily for gen speed nerf. In fact, in other replies to this thread I've specifically stated I don't think this, because it literally only translates to "hold m1 for longer" for survivors. Hell I don't even like most gen regression/slowdown perks for a similar reason...This is not a good solution, but also the post wasn't intending to make up a solution, because it's a long and complicated topic that has been talked about before, countless times, and other people have proposed countless possible solutions. This post was in anticipation of all the posts that would appear complaining about how campy and sluggy the Twins are, which, lo and behold, started appearing, because I've seen this pattern before, where people will complain about these tactics, they will want to punish the killers who engage with them without even considering a possible underlying cause, which I believe will only result in killers being more resentful of survivors and either being even scummier if they can or just not playing at all.
-I do not wish to come off as wanting killers to expect victory all of the time. But here is the thing, when a good killer loses, currently, it's because survivors held M1 on a thing they couldn't possibly patrol around, while the killer is trying to manage and outplay 4 people constantly. What is the incentive the killer has to make the game harder on themselves by not engaging in these "unfun" tactics? The kindness of their hearts and some personal pursuit of challenge, but not something the game actually gives them. Of course, there's more to it than that, but this reply is already long enough. I agree with you that killers and survivors should not be given free victories, but i don't believe thats the point i wanted to make with my original post.
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I like that solution a lot for camping - it'd kill face camping while still allowing proxy camping, which I think is honestly fine. Lets just remove the worst of it.
I'm not sure I'd like base kit DS, though. Killers wouldn't be able to know if someone had it up or not, so you could still bait the killer into taking chases and have them eat a DS. If survivors had some sort of a red glow if you start a chase with them (or something else to show DS was in play), that would help, but then the killer would just know for sure that slugging is the right play. I'm fine with DS as a perk, but I do think it needs more deactivation conditions like the ones you mentioned. I'd actually be fine making the exact effect you mentioned a reworked version of DS, so long as it also had a timer to prevent abuse. I love the idea of letting it activate twice, but making it way harder to activate unless you're actually getting tunneled.
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Onyx_Blue made a decent suggestion for slugging, If you scroll up you should see it somewhere
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Why does it always seem the scrutiny of a killers playstyle is most common? In fact, in my eyes, the equivalent to camping/tunneling is looping. It can all be considered abuse of the mechanics. Or it can all be considered natural par for the course when it comes to the game.
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There needs to be side objectives for survivors to do. Not sure what they could be, but they give extra blood points or something. I know if there was other things for me to do as survivor, I would do them besides just doing gens.
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I'd say it depends on the looping. I absolutely detest places that are so strong or so safe that they're basically free time waste with barely any skill required from the survivor and barely any input possible from the killer. However I don't mind survivors having to mindgame tiles, be cheeky and deceptive to gain distance and chaining tiles in the most effective way. It's the only way they can show skill through gameplay.
Also, I would like to clarify, I am not judging killers that engage in these tactics...hell I use them myself, when its necessary. However there is nothing wrong with discussing these tactics. I see discussions about them every day, but I often find those discussions either cast judgement outright or focus on retribution rather than understanding, and I think that helps no one.
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They don't really have an incentive besides being "nice" and being "nice" loses you games. I'm not disagreeing with that point, or any point really made here for that matter. If anything I agree with mostly everything brought up and think it's good to try and raise awareness.
Now what to do about it is the question. Everyone pretty much agrees games go too fast for most of the roster to play the way people want, even if the survivors just hold W for the most part as you said. Ideally we would be making games longer or buffing killers to keep up, while also potentially adding an incentive to not tunnel and not slam gens if they are seen as a big issues (which it seems to be to most people). Reducing map safety and/or adding more survivor objectives is also among potential options. This seems to be in line with what you were proposing as a solution path. I can hear the survivor mains screaming in the future though just for proposing some of these things. We would need a combo of things to really get at the heart of the issue.
Also very nice job describing some of the big issues with the typical perks like DS/UB ect. putting killers in a position where every option is a loss of some kind.
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Camping, slugging and tunneling.
I don't think u need to do any of those things to be a good killer, i reached rank 1 after around 90 hours of gameplay with Wraith, and never did something as Face camping or slugging 3 survivors to get all of them in the ground and win the match, it takes the fun out of my game, and as a killer i want the survivors to have a good time but also respect me as the villain.
I do believe tho, that in this game a lot of people get punished by their mistakes and sometimes some people are too blind to see it.
If i just hooked a survivor and you take it of the hook in front of me, that's not tunneling, that's just you being stupid and a bad partner.
If u got unhooked and instead of running away, you run towards me or you hide close to the hook and i find you randomly, that's not tunneling, that's you being stupid.
If i'm going to hook the third survivor, the fourth show up, body blocks me so its friend can escape, but instead of that i kill both, that's not slugging, that's just you acting moronic.
And so on... If u play killer a lot, u can come up with so many situations on where as a killer u can be called out as a camper, tunneler, slugger or whatever, but in reality a lot of those occasions , the problem is survivors being dumb.
Bu then you have BHVR releasing a killer that promote slugging in the bad way, i have played matches on were a Twins killer doesn't hook on the entire match, just because they want to kill all the survivors at the same time.
I think a good nerf to make the killer more in line with how the game works right now, is to allow survivors to take the baby out of the back of your friends by helping them to "shake it off"
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They should just make gens harder to do. Change the boring "Hold M1" mechanic into something more like the hacking system in BioShock for example, or like tasks in Among Us.
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I think you're kinda missing what the twins is, using her for an example of why slugging and camping exists is like saying trapper is why camping exists.
And not quite, but sort of. Killers have tools just some tools aren't quite as good as other tools. Its kinda like a rusty shovel, compared to a new one. One gets the job done better and faster.
The twins, due to her design are only good for that, she suffers from 115% m1 killer syndrome. Her power isn't threatening enough to healthy survivors and is only useful against hurt ones. So the strategy due to victor speed is hurt as many, than just use your increased speed to jockey slap everyone till they die. Which is why if you kick the baby, you give yourself a great amount of time to try and get ######### done if you're injured, simply because she's just...an m1 killer with a baby that has some strength against injured survivors.
It's not resorting to tricks because they can't keep up, that's just simply...how poorly she was designed.
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I gotta say this, back when i played this game, (havent played since start of rona) i had massive issues playing. Id start the game, pick a killer (Plague or spirit, spirit was my fav but audio bugs made me try plague more, surprise more bugs) 2-3 gens would proc about 90 seconds into the match, id at best have 1 hook at that point. At that moment I have a decision to make. Do i leave my hook and go for another person, or protect the one i have because the games over half over and then ill just have no kills.
I hated the latter option but it was so easy to get memed on through loops and unhooking the second i take 2 steps away that i decided screw it. I might as well keep the one ive got. Granted, some games ppl played poorly and there was more interraction or i did abnormally well, but that was the majority of my matches.
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I play both survivor and killer. You will win some and lose some. I don't care which killer you are playing or how bad you are losing or sucking. It doesn't matter if lose. Have fun doing it. Under no circumstances should a killer:
1. Camp
2. Tunnel
3. Mori without it being death hook unless all generators are done
Slugging, as much as you may not like it, is fair game play.
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I remember a post about how the game is supposed to be cat and mouse and that looping was unintentional which is why Nurse was born. Then infinites brought in bloodlust and later entity blockers, then destoyable walls which ironically make infinites or very long loops in some cases.
Unfortuanately the dev team, instead of fixing the problems early on released perks and some killers as a "quick fix". If they ever intended on fixing the problem proper which I assume they did, they just couldn't sit down and work it out before the community got bored and by now I'm afraid it's too late. Bandage perks plague killers and the new ones are bogged down with counter-intuitive drawbacks or are negligabke at best in an effort to avoid power creep that they now have to spend time and resources to go back to old maps and try to fix them with all the current perks in mind when it may have been easier to have fixed them in the past.
I hope the devs can somehow find a way to turn all this around so perks are just nice to have around instead of borderline neccessary to maybe win against an optimal opponent though with how notorious they are for bugs appearing each update I can't say that will come soon. TM
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This is wrong, of course. There are plenty of times when camping is permitted near or at end game.
I played a match yesterday where Victor was stuck for the first part of the game.
3 gens down later, I was forced to play closer to the hook to catch up.
If you are about to lose badly, camping is acceptable. It is the only opportunity to force the survivors to come to you and possibly improve your chances. It is not hard for 3 survivors to save the 4th even with camping.
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Scott Jund already pointed it out really well.
BHVR does not understand their own game anymore, im glad i left it.
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I think if you just added some secondary objectives for survivors, it would help. Needing to gather parts for gens to be able to be worked in the first place would be a good start. Having it so that survivors aren't just slamming gens would make it so the killer would feel more freedom to move around and not need to remove someone from the game as quickly as possible. It would also require them to look outside of normal gen routes to try and prevent survivors from bringing them back to generators. I would also make it so it would take a 3-5 second interaction with a generator to install a part, so it can't just be gen tapped. I would have it only take one part to get a generator in working order, otherwise it would be too much with 7 generators on the map.
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FACTS
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Like I said, under NO circumstances. If you are losing or are going to lose. Take it like a man. Don't resort to camping or tunneling. There will always be another round to try again.
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