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Put the "power" back in "power role"
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I am biased for survivors, ok. Ah man. So I "talk about RNG and blame a killer for using their advantage", which you make look like a completely ok thing, yet survivors getting the hatch is not RNG nor is it considered as "exploiting their advantage". Who's biased now, I wonder?
What you were saying was that survivors, be them solo or SWF, should not have access to 4 perks each. That looks like killing solo survivor's purpose to me, plain and simple. Anyway, about listed perks:
- Spine Chill is just a warning, which is pretty much useless if the killer is not a stealth one. So that makes that aspect of it situational. Then you have increased vault speed, which is the actual important part, but that is nowhere near unbearable.
- Lithe only works with windows, or with pallets killers are stupid enough not to destroy. If you don't find a window, you don't make use of it. Which, again, can make it situational. Not only that, but the speed boost you get is not such a big deal, at all. The killer will easily catch up, unless he bangs his head into a wall.
- Blood Warden is not situational, but it depends on the killer's ability to hook survivors during EGC. It is an endgame perk.
- STBFL situational/niche? Really? The ability to recover faster from hits and being able to hit again in a shorter time is niche? That is powerful, especially on some killers who can make the best use out of it, while also negating stacks losses.
- Ruin. Do we even need to talk about how a perk that is in pretty much EVERY match is not situational nor niche? Yes, it can be broken at the start of the match. No, it won't matter, since 90% of players pair it with Undying.
- Devour Hope. Most of the time, you'll get to enough stacks before the survivors can even realize you have this perk, Which means, you'll make use of it. Sure, it can go down at the start of the match, but as you said "if RNG makes it so survivors find it early, can you blame them for exploiting their advantage?".
- Dying Light. A perk that literally only tasks you with hooking survivors, in order for it to slow gens, can be deemed as niche or situational? Come on man, be serious. The game is DbD, not the forums.
- PWYF. You'll become faster for losing the obsessions, which you can do by simply starting a chase, turning around. Rinse and repeat, and you have 3-4 stacks. If you do that with killers like Wraith or stealth ones, it becomes even easier. Put that on Leatherface and there is almost no getting way from him. Infinite EW Myers? You got that.
The addition of breakable walls doesn't only make killers end some loops easily, but those walls, being destructible by the killer alone, become somewhat strategical. If you never break the school walls in Springfield, for instance, survivors have very narrow escape chances.
I guess this is all, enough said. Time to get serious again, shall we?
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Sure thing! This is getting long, so bear with me :D
1) The strongest survivor perks have drawbacks as well imo, but the perks are just strong enough to outweigh them. Dead Hard requires you to be injured to use and it's very inconsistent; you'll often be exhausted on the ground but still take a hit, for example, and sometimes the exhausted status effect popping up is enough to freeze the game for a half second and send you careening into a wall. Unbreakable requires you to be slugged to use, and it's also not very useful if you have teammates in the area (especially with new WGLF). Spine Chill can be countered by approaching survivors with your camera at an angle. Alert is pretty terrible against stealth killers; you know something was broken, but you don't know what or where. Adrenaline requires you to power all the gens or for the killer to close the hatch, meaning it's a wasted perk slot in a good chunk of matches. DS requires the killer to pick you up less than 60 seconds after being hooked, and while I think it does need a nerf because it can be used too offensively, it's generally easy enough for the killer to avoid if they make a point to not chase the person who just got unhooked (or if they just slug them). You get the idea - I don't think there's a perk in the game that's always going to be good in every match; there are counters and downsides to all of them.
As for which killer perks are strong compared to survivor ones, I'd consider most of them to be handily stronger than comparable survivor ones. It's hard to compare perk strength directly because they have very different effects, but one way to compare them is to look at things from a time perspective (i.e. seconds saved / lost by your opponent because you ran a given perk):
Let's imagine a killer slugs a survivor and they happen to have Unbreakable up. Let's imagine that the downed survivor's nearest teammate is 40m away, for mathematical convenience, and that the nearest generator to where they got slugged was 20m away. With Unbreakable, your 35% faster recovery gets you off the ground roughly 8 seconds faster. It also saves your teammate from having to run a combined 60m to tap you up, which saves another 15-16 seconds that they otherwise would have been spending on generators. So, all in, Unbreakable would have saved you about 25 seconds in this situation. Again, though, this is assuming 1) you're able to coordinate with your teammate so that they stay on their gen instead of coming to pick you up, and 2) that the killer slugs you in the first place. In many matches Unbreakable is just a dead perk slot. There's sometimes some wasted time between when a killer slugs a survivor and when they start pressuring the next survivor, though, which would effectively add to the time wasting for Unbreakable, so in the absolute best case scenario it might be even a bit better. On average it would save much less than 25 seconds, though.
Compare this to Pop, which removes 20 seconds of repair time from a generator with each use, with a maximum of 11 useful uses (since the 12th would be after the last survivor is sacrificed). There are additional benefits from the extra time the generator spends regressing due to Pop as well, and these can be substantial over the course of the match. Pop can sometimes even force survivors to outright abandon gens and let them regress down to nothing, for example, especially if a killer is able to land multiple pops in a row on a gen that was most of the way completed. That time is hard to quantify, but even if we ignore it, it's still entirely feasible for a killer to land 5 pops in a match and therefore to cancel out the time saved by four successful Unbreakables.
As another example, let's compare Thanatophobia and Prove Thyself - a gen slowdown perk vs. a gen speedup perk. To make life easy, let's imagine the killer averages 2 stacks of Thanat throughout the time survivors spend on gens, and that the killer never kicks or otherwise regresses a gen. For each gen, then, there's a 10% speed reduction penalty. This adds about 9 seconds per generator, so 45 seconds total. Let's imagine survivors cleanse 3 totems as well during the match. This wastes about another 5 seconds, so let's say 50 seconds of time wasting total. This is of course ignoring the benefit of any additional regression killers would get by preventing gens from popping as early, but still, it's a start. Now, for Prove Thyself, let's imagine that three of the four survivors are running it so that the effect is always active whenever multiple survivors are on a gen. Let's also assume that the killer is not running any gen slowdown perks and never regresses any gens, just for simplicity. Now let's imagine they co-op the equivalent of three of the five generators. Each co-op'd generator saves you 6.14 seconds for 2 survivors, so overall that saves you 37 seconds. Again, my math is rough, but the 4:1 proportion holds really well here; 1 killer perk saves 50 seconds, and 3 survivor perks save 37. If you add another 37/3 seconds and bump it up to four survivor perks, you get 1 killer perk and 4 survivor perks being worth 50 seconds.
Again, roughness abounds, but I hope this helps get my point across. Killer perks are usually substantially stronger than similar-tier survivor perks, and they're often as strong as the same survivor perk being run on all four survivors.
2) 100% agreed. I hope Behaviour just keeps an eye on map-specific kill rates and tweaks the most killer-sided and survivor-sided maps to bring them back towards the middle.
3) I'd be open to suggestions for a different end game mechanic besides the hatch, even if I think it's an alright mechanic. There are definitely others out there that don't like the hatch (especially with keys in their current state), so switching things up could be good.
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Game is suppose to be asymmetrical, so killer should have a clear advantage. Survivors should be able to escape but not 1v1 until all the objectives are done, that's busted balance.
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It's true suicides definitely would have chagned rates, but not to a big enough extend that it would have caused a 25% increased kill rate. Why?
A) DC penalties have significantly decresed survivors dcing, suicides on hooks often occur when their team is loosing already and probably would have lost either way, if ur winning agaisnt a killer you are far less inclined to kill urself.
B) Killers also dc quite alot too and give up. Think about farming games, killers dcing, afk wraiths, killers running meme builds etc etc, so it goes both ways.
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Killers got that high winrate because of SoloQ.
I am 100% soloq player and i guarantee to you that 80% of matches are bad teammates with bad decisions.
I have almost 2k hours for the record.
The real true is that anyone can 4k SoloQ players (all 4 solos i mean) and that's majority of main killers or streamers do and that's why winrate is high and people complain about killers OP.
If you get a good ( a decent ) swf you will get wrecked badly.
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You atleast admit your bias but still didn't make an attempt to be unbiased or civil so let's go through your feedble attempts to argue what I said.
So your first point is the hatch isn't RNG?, damn you really needed something to come up with to argue for it i guess. Hatch is not RNG, this is because there is a 100% chance for it to spawn every match given the match gets to that stage, if you think the fact its spawn is random makes it a RNG mechanic then you should start paying attention more in matches and maybe you could get it more often. The hatch is an easy escape if you know where it is, but if the killer gets to it first the game hands you 3rd chance to escape since you couldn't do the first 2 and let's you unlock the exit gates. But I bet that you still have trouble finding those on your own too.
I never said to remove perks from survivors or even lower the amount they have, you just struggled to read or understand what I said and thats ok il try to explain it without hurting your brain. Survivor perks offer massive amounts of information, deception, and escape opportunities. Not to mention alot of them hold your hand if you make mistakes. Killer perks offer advantage based off what you do in the match being either a reward for doing something or requiring you to build it up (unlike survivor perks most of the time) and most of the ones people complain about have disadvantages or ways to remove them permanently. I hope that explain it well enough for you to understand without hurting yourself so let's move on
Spinchill: this perk offers information of if the killers direct line of sight is on you and can be used mid chase to outsmart the killer in loops and lose them fast, but that may be to advanced for you.
Lithe: this is an exhaustion perk that let's you gain a considerable amount of speed to either lose a killer or gain a advantageous position to try and lose them once again. The amount of window in maps is extensive and offers alot of areas to use this perk especially at loops and jungle gyms. If you struggle to use the perk don't blame me, best part about it is there's no downside to use it and the perk will be usable again after a small amount of time. But that doesn't matter right?
Bloodwarden: get past green rank (if you even play killer at all) and this perk becomes almost useless, at high rank people 99% gates so that EGC doesn't start before all remaining survivors are safe to exit (dont worry you will get there one day). If survivors open the gate and let someone get down AND hooked then they need to deal with the consequences of their greed for not having already taken the exit and instead going back for the hook, even though the chance the killer has this perk would be extremely low.
STBFL: this perk is strong but inconsistent, reason I say that is because that once your obsession knows you have it they will likely use your hesitancy to hit them to their advantage and let the perk punish you for chosing to hit them anyway. This perk falls in the niche only because it offers alot to only a few killers and remains a quality of life change to others.
Ruin: its a hex perk dude, go do totems once you figure out its in the match thats not hard, oh boo hoo if they have Undying its not as if that means you won't get lucky on getting that totem first go anyway. The perk remains inconsistent because it can be removed early game (unlike deadhard, DS, UB, BT, Object of obsession, etc.) unless the survivors are bad or the killer gets lucky with Undying. Gen defense perks are just about a requirement to have a chance against good survivors but you wouldn't know that would you?.
Devour hope: oh boy another hex perk that can be destroyed immediately because hex spawns are garbage and can even be infont of survivor spawns or gens oh no thats unfair nerf Devour hope guys. Seriously? The advantage it offers you is miniscule until after the survivors will already know you have, but oh boy does a perk that requires a build up and can be removed from the game make all the difference in every match I play right?.
Dying light: this is a joke right? If it isn't just take what I said about hexs from above, and add in a buff to the the obsessions
PWYF: another perk that is Niche because although it offers a benefit it ONCE AGAIN comes with a downside (I dont need to redo the amount of survivor perks that offer more with no reprocession right?). Its a build up that you lose with each and every hit, big sad that it gives killer a speed boost for one hit and takes a stack from them, not to mention its 2 hits to down a survivor and missed attacks remove stacks (but lets act like you dont bring deadhard). I'm not going to go on because I would hope you see where I'm going.
Nice job showing the 1 of 2 examples in dbd that breakable walls burden survivors instead of the killers, the addition of these walls offers no tactical advantage 95% of the time since they exist in doorways that once where once again UNBLOCKED before, but thats tactics right? Yeah I didnt think so. Next time atleast try not to sound like you scrambling to make a point out of little to no fact.
Post edited by HowsMars on0 -
No they're not, and I refuse to believe that kill rate is legit. Maybe it would be a little justified if it's counting the entitled survivors killing themselves on hook or DCing.
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Kill rate's low? Entitled survivors.
Kill rate's high? Entitled survivors.
Killer's nerfed? Entitled survivors.
Killer rework? Entitled survivors.
Killer perk not buffed? Survivor perk not nerfed? Entitled survivors.
Bad match? Entitled survivors.
Shower water goes cold for a second? Entitled survivors.
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There shouldn't be a power role. This game has proven time and again that people generally don't handle power responsibly and just use it for toxicity.
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mmm killers usually win at red ranks. is rare to lose unless 4 man SWF wich is kinda commun to lose against them if they are good so its SWF what needs adressing. solo Q is kind of balanced even a little bit killer sided actually, meanwhile SWF is just exactly the oppoiste, extremely survivor sided.
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Killer is absolutely the power role. And it's way too easy to pip as killer or even avoid depipping. I feel like killers have had power creep in terms of power. Weaker killers are consistently getting reworked into powerful killers, while survivors have been largely unchanged. Every killer is viable at red rank and certain killers, spirt, nurse, blight, and oni can easily get kills vs even the best survivors. The only time I would say survivors have an advantage is in a tournament. But tournament teams are not even 1 percent of red rank games.
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with a well explained argument like that i gotta say you have got me convinced on alot of things, but some others i do feel fall a little out of line when you bring the 1 vs 4 aspect into play. you have provided sound math that i feel i may not be able to live up to such dedication on the subjects but i will use facts that you can see in the gameplay itself. your correct on survivor perks having drawbacks and some of them having even bigger requirements to meet than most are comfortable with.
- Deadhard: you honestly have me thinking the perk requires more than i thought it did before and arguing against that would make my points based on a bias and not actual facts. i see the abuse of this perk or its real strengths come from the knowledge of how and when to use it (mix that into a good survivors looping skills and pallet distances on most maps with windows being present makes for a more volatile mix). players are forced to keep themselves injured in order to use the perk, the way i view this perks requirement isnt a downside but more as a second chance for making a mistake mid chase and avoiding being downed if used correctly. the latency issues or stability issues posing as a downside to the perk are understandable since even though they arent intended they are still very present (i swear the amount of times ive gone down exhausted is infuriating). my only issue with this perk is its ability to draw out chases to ridiculous lengths forcing the killer to either leave the survivors who can then heal or do gens or the killer continues the chase hoping to make worth the time already lost, with 4 survivors being able to take the same perk it can end up with the killer getting 3 or 4 hooks by the time the gens are finished if at least 2 survivors play to doing gens while these chases are present. i dont view being injured as a downside since its something the killer is forced to do as a way of downing the survivors unless they are exposed. the only real way of making that an actual downside instead of a 2nd chance would be to make the survivor stay injured for a certain amount of time before being ale to use it.
- Unbreakable: this perks real use is stopping killers from slugging survivors since it is to be honest a frustrating thing to have happen to you, the problem comes in when you face coordinated teams of survivors which doesn't always need to even be a swf if they are good enough. slugging is sadly one of the only ways to prevent gens from popping at ridiculous speeds with or without gen defense perks and to gain pressure on the map to slow down progression into the killers grasp, facing against good survivors or teams can be frustrating because they tend to use every part of their advantage against you, and hooking a survivor is almost always not enough to gain pressure against these teams which causes the killer to seek out other survivors and build the pressure by forcing less time on gens. i agree this perk wouldn't be an issue but only if slugging stopped being a necessary tactic to gain control of a match and gen times where less of a threat.
- Pop goes the weasel: this perk is definitely a strong one of the bunch and it can definitely be seen as stronger than some of the meta survivor perks but i still do think its requirement can again be an issue to its strength. to use the perk as you said it requires a hook which is only possible about 10 or 11 times because after that its end, the perk removes 25% of a gens progression and then regresses the gen normally (0.25% of a single survivors gen speed) and cant be reapplied until after the gens regression has been halted. lets put a scenario into perspective, lets say a killer chases 2 survivors off of a gen at 50% and then follows 1 and the other returns ( we will ignore the fact there are 2 other survivors in the match) the killer needs to chase and down the survivor requiring 2 hits and a hook to use his perk again on that generator. in chase the killer will need to deal with looping, windows (able to be used 3 times), and pallets to get a hit, a single loop can last 15 seconds on average (we are talking decent survivor skills) and pallets can extend that count to double. so lets say that the killer gets looped for 15 seconds gets a pallet dropped on them and then gets a hit in at the 25 seconds causing a 3 second cooldown for the killer and letting the survivor reposition with the haste affect, the killer once again gets looped for 15 seconds but misses the hit due to deadhard and the survivor gets to loop another 15 with the pallet drop and finally after all that the killer gets their down, they walk to a hook and start their merry way back to the gen, the total estimated time spent is 77.5 seconds (2 3 second hit cd, 3 15 second loop time, 10 second catch up time, and 1.5 seconds missed attack because of dead hard). this entire time the 2nd survivor is working on the generator from 25% after the pop which is about 60 seconds to complete without any great skill check completions, this means the 2nd survivor completes the generator 17.5 seconds before the killer completes his chase (this is excluding the time it takes to pick up the survivor and walk to the hook) even if the killer didnt have to deal with deadhard that added an extra 15 seconds the generator would have still popped before the killer even gets to the hook to get the perk once more, through the other 2 survivors in on a single gen (47.6 seconds to complete) and they would already be 17.7 seconds from completing the third generator). now i know that chase times arent always going to be that long and that survivors arent always going to be rushing the gens but this situation is possible in the game currently and is a regular occurance in higher rank. in total the killer completes 1 out of 12 hooks and the survivors complete 2.7 of 5 gens basically 8.3% of the killers objective and 54% of the survivors if my math is correct.
- Thanatophobia: i promise not to take that long on this one but bear with me, the effect of thanatophobia is 5% regression on all the good stuff for survivors per stack with a maximum of 20% overall or 16 seconds with one survivor on a gen or 9.4 seconds extra on a gen with 2. if we add this math into the past situation with the deadhard and max stacks the first gen time would end up being 76 seconds (because of the 25% left on the gen after pop) still being 1.5 seconds shorter than the chase and the 2nd gens time with 2 survivors would end up being 56.46 seconds making the 3rd gen only 35 seconds left out of 56.46 with the added time from thanatophobia.
i dont see the need to go into any other survivor perks to added into the mix to make this math any longer, you make a good case but certain areas such as chases and skill which both are obviously impossible to really determine make the strengths of some of these perks fall flat on their faces compared to the consistent use of perks that over shadow them in practice that survivors tend to take. as for the maps im glad we see eye to eye in that maps should definitely be fair for either side, as for an end game alternative this has been the rough idea i have come up with.
after the 3rd survivor is sacrificed the EGC is started and the exit gates power, the hatch will spawn in the trial area closed but it can be opened by a key. the key can be either brought in or found in chest through the trial if neither of those happen then a key should spawn in one of the already opened chests but will re shut it after doing so. the survivor either can search for the key while the killer searches or guards the gates but they have limited time to get the key and find the hatch afterward. at endgame collapse the killer can patrol the gates or wander looking for survivors, if the killer leaves the gates they will get a notification if the gate reaches the 2nd light stage as long as its outside terror radius, if they choose to patrol they can also shut chest to spoof the survivor and if one of these closed chest is opened it gives the killer a notification. i feel that this could possible be a more interactive and fair end game for both sides but i definitely would like a 2nd opinion of it.
it would be great if you can give feedback on anything i said and even correct me where im wrong on any other the points if there is something you disagree with i would be more than happy to see why, as for the end game thing feedback on that would definitely be appreciated and any way to add to it to make it more balanced would also be nice to hear, if you had any ideas i would also love to see the way you would re work the end game.
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So, you clearly cannot read through sarcasm, and you appear to be a tiny little kid. The amount of baseless assumptions I see in your posts is just baffling, the typical killer main who thinks so highly of himself. Of course I never got to red ranks, right? Cause you know me so well. Stop behaving like a child, if you can. Or, you know, go on and keep bragging about stuff that you are SUPPOSEDLY able to do in a video-game (even though you are crying about the hatch, so I doubt that). I mean, your parents are proud of you when you tell them that you had a good game, right? I don't see a reason to keep going with this argument, as I feel you wouldn't understand even if I posted letter by letter. Some people are just like that, I guess. Last post, try to follow me, as I can't really draw it for you. You ready? I'll go slowly.
The RNG part in the hatch is not only where it will spawn, but also who will get it first. A killer may have already found it before the survivors do, before it even opens for the last survivor. At that point, especially if the killer is a fast moving one, a survivor will have very narrow chances of escaping. And I am talking from a general perspective, I never really need the hatch, at least when my teammates are half decent. And I lose, whatever, I'll move onto the next game. I don't need to survive every game, nor will I cry because a survivor got the hatch boo-hoo (most of the time I can't even be bothered slugging, unless the survs were toxic).
Going too fast? Take your time, the post isn't moving.
- About SpinEchill (can't understand how you keep missing the E), you literally wrote what I just said. It warns you when the killer is coming, which by itself means he is looking in your direction. Or do you generally chase survivors while walking backwards? Who knows, maybe you use Slinger's power to try and shoot your feet.
- Lithe: I already explained how the speed boost you get with any of the three exhaustion perks that work that way is just ridiculous. It is the same speed as you get when the killer hits you, which has never been enough to lose the killer or to avoid the tunneling, unless the killer is so bad he can't look around after the hit and loses track of you. But that is a mistake on the killer's part, not a well-played thing from a survivor. There is a reason almost 99% of the players favor Dead Hard, you know? Or don't you? Oh, and also, it takes a full minute of NOT running to have exhaustion perks, that aren't Dead Hard, available again. Not really a small amount of time, especially if you are still getting chased. Unless you walk while the killer is in front of you, anyway.
- Bloodwarden: Someone doesn't know that he can open exit gates as a killer, it seems, as you can just down a survivor and open the exit gate before hooking them? Or you know, but you never had the chance to try to make use of the perk, since survivors escape easily when you are the killer? Is that why you cry about the hatch? Oh, I have an idea, let's make it so exit gates need 10 gens to be opened, give gens double the amount of time to get repaired and have it so, if and when all 10 gens are repaired, exit gates don't even spawn. I'll give you a simple suggestion: find a survivor, down them, open the exit gate, hook them. And before you say anything that isn't worthwhile, if they managed to get both exit gates at 99, that is on you, it means you did not apply enough pressure, or none at all.
- SBTFL: At least you start to have some proper reasoning here, but still. You forget to mention how you keep the stacks you had forever, after the obsession dies. And again, killers who use it most will have a way to kill the obsession without losing stacks. If, on the other hand, you refuse to hit the obsession, negating a free hit, just because of that perk, then it's you being stupid. As much as survivors with Object of Obsession WANT you to see and chase them, giving them the advantage if you choose to commit to them, you are doing the same thing by not hitting the obsession. It's the difference between stupid and strategical choices, between experienced players and casuals who can just work with what they see on the screen, with no ability whatsoever of thinking ahead.
- Not gonna say anything more on Ruin or Devour Hope, as you clearly never even knew of the times when totems were bugged on many maps, which lead to them not being cleansable at all. And someone didn't even bother to notice that devs are trying to have totems more hidden than they were, but you need to be playing both sides to know that. so I can understand.
- Dying Light: Oh wow, the obession can unhook and heal somewhat faster, while ALL survivors will take longer to do gens because of a single perk that works with hooks. Nah, let's move on to another perk, that's just too difficult. What kind of reasoning is that? Do you want to have PGTW remove 100% of gen progression, and have the perk active by just looking at a gen for 2 seconds, instead of hooking?
Those walls WERE unblocked, that is they key word, my not intelligent non- friend. They WERE unblocked, now they are not. Which means that the ability to grant survivors another escape route or to negate it falls under the killer's possibilities. As much as people use Corrupt Intervention to slow the game down, having one less perk after it expires, having doors blocked means survivors won't have a way of escaping through them. And having destroyable walls to cut the time it takes to catch a survivor in the shack, as in Glenvale, means you are taking away the best loop and pallet survivors have.
This is the end of the discussion for me, write all the "know-it-all" comments you like, I'm not gonna bother reading them again, nor provide you with unnecessary and undeserved attention. Have a good day, and try not to cry too much because you can't kill survivors, aye? Oh, and about that, in F13 you can play against bots who almost don't move, give that a try, it might suit you better. Adios.
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struck a nerve did i?, thats ok i guess i really had you fuming at the keyboard. oh and sorry about the spelling mistakes i dont really care to go back and fix auto correct when typing on my phone. since you definitely wont be coming back il keep it short and simple since you get angry when im not. p.s. dont try to pass what you said as sarcasm to make yourself seem the bigger man thats just pathetic.
lets start and end this hatch business shall we, finding the hatch isnt RNG, do you know what RNG stands for? no? ok here ya go "Random number generator", i guess it is RNG for ya if your playing against bots but not its called luck and being attentive. with everything you have said i doubt that you even get to the hatch stage of the match, killer or survivor. and you may not cry about it there but you sure did here.
oh before this i just wanted to say that you missed alot of other things i said like the whole reduced perks debacle but dont worry im happy knowing you couldn't find a way to embarrass yourself on that one
"spin"chill: i love the new name but you dont argue my point so thanks. also pointing out spelling mistakes is a bold move for you to make after that first post
Lithe: just because people take deadhard more doesnt mean its bad. if you cant use this perk to gain a new postition or break line of sight to hide then dont bother with it since your brown rank anyway (this does mean you)
Bloodwarden: you gonna open the gate for 30 seconds of time?, are you kidding me?, yeah i bet you would
STBFL: just gonna ignore ds is a perk that you see 9 times out of 10 in survivors eh? i know you use it so dont act like you dont know what happens when you get your free shoulder stab. but yeah whatever else you said about casuals i dont care
Ruin and devour: bringing up a bug and a buff huh, really ran out of stuff to use here. and yes totems are easy to find but you might want to take a map since you struggle so much
Dying light: il do some math so you might want to turn on the brain real quick, dying light gives a meager 3% penalty with each token only gaining this advantage after hooking a survivor and requires you to keep the obsession alive. the obsession gets 33% to healing and unhooking. but hey its a great perk and all the top tier killers take it right?, please stop trying to make this perk seem stronger than it is i dont know how else to say it.
you agree that these doorways where unblocked, and that it gives survivor advantage..... jeez man it hurts to see you stumble, also you forget to mention almost all of these doors have a window next to them for the survivor to hop through like i mentioned before but dont worry i know you have a hard time reading. the 1 example of a loop breaking wall damn thats op, maybe try to go to a different loop instead of the easy shack one sorry you cant use it for 2 gens now, oh wait thats just you complaining because a singular shack has that addition and your ape brain doesnt like it.
"end of discussion" cool i didnt like "discussing" with you since being a steel wall for survivors is all you wanted to do, didnt read the original post did ya?. and dont worry no hard feelings i just wish it didnt end up with a oh so bad forum fight that got you so angry you thought id care if you didnt respond. either way if you want to come back and use actual facts for your arguments instead of baseless opinon then i would be more than happy to go through it a bit more civil this time and maybe we could end up seeing eye to eye. and if you dont then goodluck in brown rank im rooting for ya.
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The killer moves faster than survivors, cannot be harmed, has a multitude of perks and add ons that can track survivors throughout the game and has powers that will always replenish as opposed to survivors items that deplete. The killer already has more power than any single survivor. Survivors that make killers feel like the killer is underpowered are players that have honed their skill and the same can be said of killers who are more experienced than survivors. It is the matchmaking system that makes the game feel unbalanced and it does indeed need work. If you feel you are underpowered in either role it is because you are not honing your skill enough, although I will say you need more skill and experience to escape as survivor than to hook as killer. This is coming from a killer main btw, I don’t feel like I’ve ever been properly challenged as a killer, even without using hex perks.
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This is actually a online game and is supposed to be somewhat competitive (as in either side having a fair shot). So, there should be no power role.
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what rank are you?, im not trying to be rude but theres alot off about this post. and no the matchmaking isnt the only issue its that most killers have skill caps to their ability while survivors dont. the only 2 killers who dont suffer from that cap are spirit and nurse (2 survivor hated killers). mmr is something to be considered but this is a asymmetrical game, thats means its supposed to be a strong character the "power role" vs the weaker characters the "weaker role". the idea behind these games is that the power role is 4 times as strong as the weaker roles to make up for the difference in numbers, and the weaker role needs to use their numbers to their advantage. the killer is faster because survivors have obstacles to put in the killers way to gain the advantage, and the survivors cannot harm the killer because thats not their objective its to complete generators on the map. 5 completed generators means an escape and for killers its 12 hooks, if you have any experience in this game for more than a month and past the lower ranks then you would start to see the issues in balance BDB has. this isnt a nudge at you but is instead more of a general perspective of having played the game for 5 years and being present at all of the changes and additions the developers put into the game.
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look up asymmetrical games, the game is a 1v4 making the person alone have the same power as the group wouldn't be "fair". just look up what kind of games these are because DBD is one of them.
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Look up power role. Even if we went by your definition... The killer would already be the power role as if dominates in a 1v1. Honestly it’s basically game over when the game becomes a 3v1 tbh. The killer should be as powerful as the sum of the opposite team. As in 4 survivors = 1 killer. Not more.
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yeah i dont think you understand what im saying, and i go as far to even say you also newer to the game or just stuck in lower ranks. the difference between killer and survivors start to show when survivors know how to use their advantages and abuse them, not to mention the addition of gameplay mechanics that punish killers for doing their objective. yes asymmetrical means the the killer is 4 times as strong as the survivors but this isnt fully the case with DBD, survivors have plenty at their disposal to use against the killer and with perks that offer even more opportunity while the killer only has their power and the basic attack which can be buffed by perks. this is ok so far but alot of these systems get abused by survivors who know how to play the game (figuratively and literally). and saying the game is over when its a 1v3 is also false. i dont know what rank you are or how experienced you are but i can get an idea by what your saying
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Lmao I’m rank 1 and have 300hrs. The killer is 100% 4 times as strong as 1 survivor. If you get chased for 5 gens it’s not because the game is unbalanced. I promise. Most of the time by the time the game is a 3v1 you’ll have at least one other person on death hook if you’re play optimally. I.E only bothering to hook 1-2 survivors and slugging the other two when you need to. Killers have absolutely nutty perks. STBFL, Enduring, Spirit Fury, and other perks that jump up in power and go down depending on the killer and their power. Ruin and Undying give gen slow down and force survivors to focus on a second objective. Pop and corrupt are amazing on every killer. You’re going to hook people and you’ll really only ever need 8ish pops because by the time you’re getting the rest people are dying. Infectious fright is amazingly reliable. Thrilling is also amazing. Better than BBQ if it didn’t have the bp bonus. Btw I almost exclusively played Myers (one of the weakest killers in the game) and Ghostface all the way up to rank 1. If you’re at least halfway good at the game you should be dominating in the 1v1 with a majority of killers. Even clown is amazing in the 1v1. The issue with the game is map pressure. Not the killer being weaker than each individual survivor. Because they aren’t.
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i dont fully believe the rank 1 killer part but that doesnt mean im right, ok then if you are rank 1 and play the game at high rank then you should know how strong survivors get, im not going to get into detail on that since ive had that discussion plenty of times in this thread and i invite you to read them if you havent already. and yes if you dedicate to a chase and make that many mistakes then you deserve what you get for not spreading pressure. the perks ive already done a breakdown on some but you have a huge lack of anything survivor related added into your argument so i ask you to try and look at stuff with both sides in perspective. also just because you say your a killer main doesnt mean that your points are irrefutable. i disagree that all killers are viable in high rank since many heavily depend on strong add on and perks to have the same chance as some mid tier killers I.E. wraith, pig, demo. map pressure is a issue so i agree there but once again you dont throw how much survivors have at their disposal in and out of chase. again ive already been through 2 discussions that went to way too large of lengths going into the gritty details so i wont go into any major detail unless its a direct response to something you say
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And I can imagine your skill as killer too
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good one, really got me there
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I didn’t say survivors didn’t have good perks. I said killers also have amazing perks and if the killer is genuinely good at the game they will dominate the 1v1 with a majority of killers. I also didn’t say all killers were viable in red rank. Would you like to see my steam profile with my achievements for getting rank 1 on killer and prestige 3 level 50 achievement? I’ve leveled a majority of killers and survivors to 35-40 for perks I want too. I like how me not thinking killers are absolutely pitiful weaklings who aren’t powerful in 1v1 makes my ranking as killer doubtful. I’d honestly say you thinking killers are at a great disadvantage makes your ranking as killer doubtful. Killers are undoubtedly stronger than the survivors. A good few killers are amazing in both the 4v1 and 1v1. Oni, Nurse, Bubba, Freddy, Spirit, Ghostface and Wraith with add-ons are both very good in 4v1 if they hit and run, and Hag has insane map control after her web is set up. That’s not to mention killers who make up for the lack of 1v4 by having an extraordinary 1v1 like Deathslinger and some would argue Clown. Killers aren’t struggling with perks. They have great perk and power options. The issues for killers is the beginning of the game where they have zero pressure and need to begin building it. Some maps all but guarantee 2 gens popping during your first chase.
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Also just gonna point out your post as 75 replies and over 600 views, but only 5 upvotes. These forums are fairly killer sided. I think that’s evidence enough that you’re wrong and a majority don’t agree with you lol
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I dont need to see your steam profile i already stated that I could be wrong and it doesn't matter, also I'm not here to try and prove my rank to you either this is supposed to be a discussion not a contest. I've gone into alot of the so called meta perks that both survivors and killers have with others and you still haven't provided evidence to what you say its just the garentee of "dude trust me". Killer viability is obvious just by playing them and every match is always going to change the consistency of their strengths but once again you still provide very little to defend what you have said. Already agreed on map pressure and I honestly don't care how many people upvote my original post and what you said about the community being killer sided after kinda contradicts itself but I bet you know who sides with what aswell.
I'm not trying to get in another key board fight with another forum warrior so il just say this, provide evidence to your arguments in the form of facts, math, and statistics and I will gladly go through it with you to come to a hopefully like minded conclusion. If you want to keep being a keyboard warrior on the other hand then I dont have any interest in participating and wish you the best of luck
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Lmao you want stats on how often thrilling does or doesn’t block a gen? It does it every time you use it. Infectious will always give you info if a survivor is in your terror radius. Whispers is the same. You can’t trick either perk. STBF will always give you value. Brutal will always break that pallet faster. Enduring will always make the stun shorter. Spirit Fury will always cause the pallet to break when it’s active. Discordance makes it so survivors literally just can’t stack on gens. The only perks that don’t guarantee value are hex perks and even the best two hex perks right now actually guarantee some value. Pop has guaranteed value. You have to hook people. Corrupt has guaranteed value. Survivors will either waste time waiting it out or come to you helping with the terrible early game. I’d also like to add... You never gave any math about perk other than “survivors get more” lmao. Also, I know you only have a few posts so you may not know much about the forums, but if you read more than just you’re amazing post you’d be able to see the forums are more killer sided. Which matter in terms of the interactions with that community and your post.
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Also, killers have a 65% killer rate in red ranks. There’s some math for you bb
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Yeah again no basis on what you've argued so your post kinda just blends in with the rest who give no value to what they say. Just blurring out what perks do and their general advantage without listing anything else like chase times, gen times, meta perks, god loops, and God pallets and other aspects of base gameplay just shows that your argument is shallow with no real thought put into it. And I dont know what post you read but yes I do provide math on one of them and yes survivors get 16 perks to the killers 4 thank you for giving me another piece of what I said that you didn't attempt to try and argue against. And you are right I'm not exactly new to the forums but have just started posting but I still don't see the point in basing what I said on whether the majority believe it, just because someone doesn't believe something doesn't mean they are right or wrong its called an opinion. And the %65 kill rate means an average of a 2k which is a black pip on the killer if they have a Decently paced game or a de pip otherwise. You've chosen keyboard warrior so im gonna move on to other post that atleast carry a good argument. Best of luck to your bait
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Lmao
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- I definitely agree that Dead Hard is strong and can extend chases for quite a while if used at the perfect time (e.g. for distance in order to reach a pallet). Even if it's clunky and inconsistent to use at times, the potential is there. I wouldn't be opposed to nerfing the lunge distance a bit, because that's the part of the perk that can really extend chases; otherwise the killer needs to get baited into swinging through the Dead Hard, and that's of course avoidable. Still, like most survivor meta perks, it's actually pretty inconsistent. Some matches it'll be literally the difference between life and death, and other times you'll hardly get any use out of it. I would agree that needing to be injured isn't necessarily a huge drawback, but it's relevant nonetheless - Imagine you're playing a killer with an instadown, for example; before you get downed the first time, your Dead Hard is useless. You can play the rest of the game injured to try to preserve your Dead Hard and just rush gens while injured, which is risky (although often still a good move), or you can heal for added stealth and more safety against the M1 but have a dead perk slot is the killer instadowns you. You don't even have that choice if you're playing against killers like Huntress or Clown who can apply exhaustion during the chase. If you had Lithe or Sprint Burst or something you could make distance before being exhausted, but Dead Hard would be 100% useless in those matches.
- I agree that slugging is useful for building pressure and that Unbreakable is therefore a strong perk to use to counter slugging, but slugging is really only useful in certain situations: 1) You have a time-sensitive opportunity to pressure survivors that you'd risk missing out on if you hook the survivor (e.g. you see another survivor near to the downed survivor, Tinkerer procs on a gen 40m away right as you down them). 2) The survivor you downed was very recently unhooked and there's an obsession in the match. Most of the time, then, slugging isn't going to be very beneficial and hooking that survivor is going to be the best play. In those cases Unbreakable does nothing. Sometimes the killer is able to apply pressure and get back to the slug before they get to use their UB, and in that case it also does nothing. Even when it gets used, though, slugging that survivor still probably allowed you to pressure multiple survivors at once. UB just allows the survivors to waste less time breaking the pressure.
- I see what you're getting at with Pop, but the benefit of the perk doesn't go away if survivors are able to power gens you popped. Even in that rough scenario where you pop the gen and chase a survivor away from it but another hidden survivor pops out and gets back to work on the gen, you still wasted 20+ seconds of survivor repair time with your pop. Even if you don't make it back to the gen in time to stop it from being completed, that hidden survivor therefore had to spend 20+ more seconds repairing that generator before being able to move on to another generator. The same sort of logic applies to the slowdown from Thanat - survivors finishing gens doesn't mean that the perk isn't working; it's still definitively making progress on gens slower, which of course helps the killer over the course of the match. Pop in particular shines more as a late-game perk imo, and is enough to win matches by itself in 3v1 three-gen situations. With three survivors in the match, you usually have a loop of one person hooked, one person saving, and one person being chased; survivors only get to do gens if they can save the hooked survivor and get back on a gen before the killer hooks the next survivor, so gen progress is slow. With Pop, the killer will be able to keep the last few gens down and amplify the value of each hook. Survivors likely won't be able to force out the last gen unless the killer commits to a chase they should have dropped. It's also a bit risky as survivors co-opping gens, intelligently using toolboxes, running Repressed Alliance, etc. can make landing useful pops difficult, but the ceiling is match-winningly high and it's strong in most matches.
I like your idea for the end game, but I think it might require some additional tweaks to make sense. A first concern I have is that this would make keys extremely weak as items; if they're only useful for the last survivor in the EGC and they're guaranteed to spawn in chests anyway, it probably doesn't make sense to bring one into the match at all. Given their rarity, you'd think keys should be roughly as strong as items like Rainbow Maps, Utility Flashlights, and Ranger Medkits, but these would all be more worthwhile to bring than keys with this change. One way to get around this would be to remove keys as Bloodweb items altogether and only let them spawn in chests. Another would be to decrease their rarity to better align with their decrease in utility. Finally, their add-ons could be buffed or keys could be given some other innate effect to make them a bit stronger before the EGC.
The other piece I don't love is giving the killer a notification when the gate hits the second light phase. Especially against killers like Blight that can already rapidly traverse between exit gates, that would make it extremely difficult for lone survivors to escape through the exit gate. I think the lights and loud beeping are useful enough as indicators that a survivor has been working on a door. I don't see the killer ever patrolling chests unless they're right near the gates or the killer is running Whispers, because it'd already be so hard for a survivor to find the chest with the key and the closed hatch just during the EGC that the killer would probably be better off just defending the gates. One way to encourage survivors to try for the hatch might be to show the survivor chest auras and to show the killer the hatch aura, so that it's more feasible for survivors to find the key while also giving the killer a chance to defend the hatch a bit and drive the survivor away from it in a chase.
I don't have any great ideas myself for the endgame (I just want them to put more effort into optimization and polish before they mess with things lol) but it'd be fun to have some changes in the future!
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The repercussions for "Meta" perks are such:
Any exhaustion perk: exhaustion is a direct repercussion for the perk. A discussion about how long exhaustion cooldown should be is totally open, or putting an extra debuff alongside having exhaustion as a cooldown--perhaps killer perks could apply extra exhaustion restraints? Such as blindness while exhausted, making exhaustion take twice as long, or exhaustion causing players to ramp up to full run speed while exhausted.
Decisive Strike: you have one use. That's it. It makes you the obsession, which honestly I think there should be more downsides to being the obsession if survivors are given points for dying as one.
Adrenaline: is is both an exhaustion perk and only viable for 5 seconds at the very end of the match. Yes it can be a crutch perk when the generators are nearly complete, but it only exists in that 5 second time frame of the entire match. It's a dead perk prior to that point and a dead perk after that. Maybe there's an argument for it to not get healed if you're being carried or on hook.
Borrowed Time: You need to be in the Killer's Terror Radius for it to go off. Any silent killers who can remove their Terror Radius or severely reduce it negate the ability.
Unbreakable: Usually used in conjunction with Decisive Strike to give better odds when a Killer decides to slug instead of take a DS hit. There are really good killer combo perks too, we can't say this one in particular ruins the game unless we want to open the doors to all potential combo perks. This is more of a Killer not wanting to take a measly 3 second stun, especially when no one else is around.
Is there anything else? Object of Obsession is not really Meta, it's used specifically in SWF sweat groups that think being top tier competitive in a party game will get them somewhere. It's a novelty, and novelty wears off quickly.
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The repercussions for "Meta" perks are such:
Any exhaustion perk: exhaustion is a direct repercussion for the perk. A discussion about how long exhaustion cooldown should be is totally open, or putting an extra debuff alongside having exhaustion as a cooldown--perhaps killer perks could apply extra exhaustion restraints? Such as blindness while exhausted, making exhaustion take twice as long, or exhaustion causing players to ramp up to full run speed while exhausted.
Decisive Strike: you have one use. That's it. It makes you the obsession, which honestly I think there should be more downsides to being the obsession if survivors are given points for dying as one.
Adrenaline: is is both an exhaustion perk and only viable for 5 seconds at the very end of the match. Yes it can be a crutch perk when the generators are nearly complete, but it only exists in that 5 second time frame of the entire match. It's a dead perk prior to that point and a dead perk after that. Maybe there's an argument for it to not get healed if you're being carried or on hook.
Borrowed Time: You need to be in the Killer's Terror Radius for it to go off. Any silent killers who can remove their Terror Radius or severely reduce it negate the ability.
Unbreakable: Usually used in conjunction with Decisive Strike to give better odds when a Killer decides to slug instead of take a DS hit. There are really good killer combo perks too, we can't say this one in particular ruins the game unless we want to open the doors to all potential combo perks. This is more of a Killer not wanting to take a measly 3 second stun, especially when no one else is around.
Is there anything else? Object of Obsession is not really Meta, it's used specifically in SWF sweat groups that think being top tier competitive in a party game will get them somewhere. It's a novelty, and novelty wears off quickly.
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Agreed .
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again you make alot of valid points and explain them well, this time i actually dont have any arguments against it and can just about 100% agree with what you said on each subject.
Deadhard and UB: the inconsistency of deadhard and the reliance on you baiting a killer to swing and successfully timing the dodge does make the perk harder to use and i would say at this point that would even be its drawback, it isnt a 100% free escape perk since a killer can easily bait it given opportunity and can just wait the dodge out in a chase aswell while gaining bloodlust, i say the weakness against killers who bring exposed is more like a counter than a drawback since the perk can still be used if the arent able to get the exposed status effect off on the survivor I.E. revealing Ghost face, Myers running out of tier 3, ETC. UB is only useful if survivors are left on the ground for extended periods of time meaning that it requires the right situation for the killer to need to risk the hook state for pressure, (although having a person get up next to an almost finished gen when you had no gen defense is annoying as hell) The only part about this that i would say needs balancing is the base recovery percentage since you can 95% your recovery and get instantly picked up without any perks, in my opinion it should be 50% base and 95% with UB after the already getting up once. but overall im not trying to argue your points just more of the way i view these perks after seeing them with your argument in mind.
Pop: this perk is definitely useful and you are correct that the killer gets a great amount of value for using it but it just seems even with the perks strong attribute in the beginning of the match or as long as 4 survivors are alive this perk doesn't make as much of a difference since the amount of survivors working on gens is still significant to the amount they need to actually finish compared to the amount of hooks you need to get to win. i do mostly play the game off of the base that survivors objectives is to survive and escape the killer while the killers objective is to kill all 4 survivors meaning that yes the killer should be able to get a 4k it just shouldn't be easy, and it never is and thats ok. my point being that i guess the issue isnt the perk but the amount of objective survivors need to complete to escape vs the amount of objectives the killer needs to complete to get all 4 kills ( 5 gens, 5 optional totems, and 1 exit gate vs 12 hooks, and 1 hatch). i dont want to be the guy that complains about gen speed but it definitely goes way to fast if your going to play the way the devs want you and not force a survivor out early (aka get 3 hooks on 1 survivor as fast as possible so basically tunneling or camping, and no i dont condone either). being forced to play a certain way and being put against massively more difficult odds because of it make the game alot harder since killers cant actually 1v4 very easily but start gain the pressure they need when its 1v3 (whether a survivor is on hook or dead just as long as only 3 are alive and working). and if gen times arent an issue maybe its the amount of gens that they do instead, im really lost on how to fix it because holding m1 for longer than 80 seconds would be boring and annoying as hell but also impossible late game so maybe a increase of gens is right but idk.
The end game idea is definitely rough and requires alot more thought put into it like the balancing of having mobility killers, and stealth killers (cause the terror radius idea), and killers like the twins who can basically watch both exit gates and travel the map at the same time. but the key part is definitely another problem since it does reduce their value as an item alot so i agree that maybe upgrading their addons to be stronger but the item only findable in trial aswell to get may be the route that this idea would need to take. But either way its going to be way to difficult to balance it out for all the killers since their abilities and strengths vary massively.
my only hope at the moment is for the weaker killers who dont get the same love and attention as the stronger killers get their much needed buffs or re works to bring them into the game to be enjoyed without the added frustration like their current forms (I.E. wraith, pig, clown, demo, and Myers). after changes like that then i would be looking for a re work on the generator mechanic to make it a bit less boring for survivor and to help it not be finished so quickly. if theres anything ive said that you agree or disagree with let me know, if you have any more ideas on the EGC or the ways gens could be re worked to be fun for both sides ( i hate sitting there for 80 seconds pressing space bar occasionally so i do mean a way to make it fun for survivor too) or if you would keep it the same then i would love to see those ideas Aswell.
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I mostly agree with your points too! It would be interesting to play around with the self-recovery percentage for downed survivors, especially given the prevalence of WGLF and Unbreakable now, and I'm all aboard the buff train for the weaker killers you mentioned. Gen repairs are usually reasonably engaging for me personally because I'm busy scanning around me for information in addition to just holding M1, but I know it's boring for many people so it'd be good to find ways to make that more engaging. In addition to being a bit more fun, it would also be a buff for stealth killers since survivors would be less likely to see them coming if gen repairs were more interactive/distracting. And let's be honest, most stealth killers need buffs - three of the five you mentioned use stealth!
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Not true, dbd is an asymmetrical game, a 4 v 1. You would have to be really stupid to make not make the 1 a power role
Of course the dbd devs arent stupid, they created a game with killer as the power role in mind, something that's also required for a "survivor simulator" which would require the odds to be against you. But then they added SWF and started cater to the whims of survivors creating a dwindling killer playerbase with a large portion of that small fragment of killers being sweaty toxic tryhards. However its ok because you can make killer as easy as survivor by tunneling, likely resulting in 2 kills.
Its incredibly stupid but its what survivor mains keep asking for
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Killers are suppose to be OP. Are u suggesting that it should be 50/50?
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It must be rough being one of the only sane people on a discussion board, you make a lot of sense and I'm glad to see people like you are still part of this forum, mostly only see but jobs posting and arguing, honestly thank you
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"meta perks like spin chill and alert" dawg ######### 😂😂😂
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taking information perks instead of crutch perks will be harder at first but get you way farther once you learn how to loop effectively without needed a hand holding perk. only meta part about them is the ability to track the killers and see if hes looking at you within a certain radius. these perks take alot more experience to use effectively but once you learn how to they become miles better than stuff like OoO,DS,UB, and others since it offers a constant watch on the killer with no downside unless the killer walks like a crab and never breaks anything. calling alert meta may be a bit too far but it offers alot for what it is
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Got to love the blatant disregard of "try to be unbiased" lmao. Entitled player detected 🤣
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So you're cherry picking the stats you use. All ranks have to be considered when balancing, not just the sweat ranks. And I have to say that to maintain rank 1 as killer, the work that has to be done is FAR more than a survivor has to do to maintain rank 1. Had a game last night where me and two buddies died, but the random rank 1 that came in last and did nothing but farm me off hook and did a couple totems, one heal, and a gen got to keep their rank 1? That's utter nonsense. That's 5 separate things they did to keep their rank 1. But if I only get 5 hooks as a rank 1 Killer? Depip.
Point is survivors have it too easy in some areas. It gets easier if you're running a full four man squad, which is disgustingly frequent in red ranks when you're a killer. Teams running Object x2, DS x4, For The People, Soul Guard, etc.
But that's a whole other argument. The debate right now is balance and you're trying to say that the game should only be balanced around red ranks, which is completely wrong. That would kill it in the long run as it would be unforgiving to new players and even average players. This game isn't about sweating and degrading each other like red ranks just LOVE to do.
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