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Undying Change Isn't As Bad As People Think
I'm gonna use Ruin as an example because come on, it is what everyone is thinking about.
People keep saying that since Ruin can't respawn again and again anymore Undying is dead or nerfed heavily but it is just not true. To put this simply I will use situations to explain it.
Lets name the 5 totems A B C D E and say Undying spawns on A and Ruin spawns in B.
First Case: B (Ruin) is found first.
- Current Version: It will be teleported to either C D E which are dull totems until A (Undying) is found, so you need to destroy A (Undying) and 1 extra totem after it. The survivors can also destroy all totems except A (Undying) to destroy Ruin.
- New Version: It will be teleported to A (Undying) so you have to destroy A to destroy Ruin.
This is the biggest difference you can have in a game and it's only 1 totem less, but also removes the chance of Undying not being found but Ruin being destroyed by survivors doing 4 other totems. It's a slight nerf in my opinion.
Second Case: A (Undying) is found first.
...nothing changes.
Third Case: Both A (Undying) and B (Ruin) are found at the same time.
- Current Version: 50% chance that you will have to look for 1 more totem (if Ruin breaks first).
- New Version: Ruin will be gone after both totems are destroyed.
This is only a slight nerf since it's an unlikely scenario, finding 2 hexes at the same time is already an advantageous situation for the survivors, it only sometimes makes a difference in the current version and that difference is 1 totem.
Overall the perk is nerfed but not heavily at all, except the aura reading part. But to be honest that had to be gone, it was making breaking totems punishing for survivors when the perk was removing the reward even if you managed it. Thrill is a thing for a reason.
Comments
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Isn't this exactly as bad as people are saying it is? The only thing you've added is that it's a slight nerf in your opinion.
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No, people are talking like ruin spawning on dull totems 3 times before undying is gone is something insane, but if you read my post you can see that for that to happen Undying totem needs to be not found before the other 4, obviously, which means it would actually be better for Ruin to be swapped with Undying since it would be found after the 4 other totems in that scenario. My point is that the change is only a slight nerf, in some cases even a buff.
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It puts hex perks back to before undying released, gimmick perks that disappear once survivors are notified of their exsistance.
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Please read my post and maybe my first comment, however strong Undying is in the current version it will not be changed much in the PTB. If you can think of a scenario it will be much weaker please tell me.
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It's actually a bit worse, taking it with ruin might actually be detrimental now instead of beneficial.
Since the first totem cleansed will remove undying thus all it's benefits; that means you only need to cleanse 2 clearly lit totems on a map to disable half of the killer's perks entirely. Ruin before, on its own, often was gone in like 20 - 60 seconds of the match, with this current undying that might be extended to 60-90 seconds or maybe 2 minutes.
If they are blind or less...experienced survivors sure it might last; but it will be totally unreliable against anyone who has played the game some.
Now; keep in mind there is no aura for lit totems now, which even if there was it would be gone after cleansing just ONE totem. That at least would let them defend a totem ONE TIME at least; however now they cannot even do that.
So you can, without interruption, likely break both totems no problem disabling again, 2 of 4 killer perks early on; probably faster than corrupt intervention even lasts.
The nerfing of its primary effect, sure I get it that makes sense; however that also nerfs it's secondary effect which would also be fine except they basically removed it's secondary defense mechanism in the process. Had they left it, it still would be gone after one totem, so in no way would that be "too powerful" and also it would at least buy enough time, if the killer chooses, for it to have some merit as a perk slot.
If they wanted to do it more justice, give it the thrill of the hunt notification sound, and move the aura reading to Thrill instead; thus buffing thrill of the hunt in the process of a manageable undying nerf.
Tldr; I think an nerf was expected and justified, however I feel this could have been handled much better.
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Oh boi, im a blight main, devour+undying is absolute destroyer
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I don't think you went though the full scenario you're talking about.
50% chance Undying will be cleansed first, 2 totems total
25% chance that Undying will be cleansed 2nd, 3 totems total
12.5% chance that Undying will be cleansed 3rd, 4 totems total
12.5% chance that Undying will be cleansed last, 5 totems total
With a little math, the "Expected Value" of Undying is that they will have to cleanse, on average, 2.875 Totems to remove ruin.
Of course the math gets more complicated if the survivors are also cleansing Dull totems, but even if they cleanse 2 dull totems, there's only a 25% chance for that to actually matter.
Also it has become much weaker as an information perk because it won't show you when survivors are cleansing your Hex totems.
Overall its a significant nerf. Is undying useless now? No, you'll still get value out of it, but to say its a slight nerf is an understatement.
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If you think it's a slight nerf. You're straight up delusional. Not to say that undying was fair, it wasn't but this isn't a small nerf.
Let's use a more realistic scenerio than the one you posted. You've spawned into the map and you're looking around, a survivor has spawned near a dull totem, their team mate has told them that ruin is causing gens to regress and they go to break the dull totem. You as the killer move towards the dull totem, they break the totem because they're greedy and you get a hit. While in chase with that survivor, 2 other survivors are working on 2 different generators, 1 is looking for totems. You down the survivor, you hook them, and with BBQ you prevent 1 survivor from finishing their generator while the other generator gets finished. You are down one generator, You are down 2 dull totems, and 1 survivor is on hook, and the survivor that you're chasing is injured while they're generator is regressing to nothing. While in chase you see the aura of a survivor going to break the totem and you hear the sound notification of someone completing the rescue. You change targets to the the one breaking the totem. You're able to protect this totem (because you knew where the location of the totem was and you were soft patrolling it. While you may have protected it, they've found the other totem and broken it. But it was undying, and ruin moves to the last dull totem on the match. The match progresses, the survivor that was on undying remembers the location of the totem and goes back to break the totem. But it doesn't matter, ruin has moved to the 5th totem in the map and breaking undying doesn't matter.
This scenerio of having ruin being the last totem broken is a very likely scenerio. Precisely because survivors will break any totem they come across to prevent the totem from moving to another totem. And if you protect your totem and they find the other, they will come back to break both totems. This is true even when undying is the only totem in play, many survivors will still go to break undying.
If you can't understand how much of a difference this is compared to the changed ruin, there's not any point in having a conversation with you.
But let's look at the new undying scenario.
You've spawned into the map and you're looking around, a survivor has spawned near a dull totem, but not near enough to see the aura of the survivor (after all the survivor basically has to be touching it to see auras). their team mate has told them that ruin is in play, they ignore the dull totem. You never see their aura, You never get the hit because they were greedy about breaking it. You don't even know where the survivors are but in reality 3 survivors are on generators and 1 is looking for lit totems. Let's say you decide to protect your 2 hex totems. You can't see the auras of survivors who find them so you must be near by. While patrolling the totems all 3 generators pop. You have no hooks. Well that's a dud of a strategy, let's not do that. Alright, new plan you decide to patrol gens. You push one individual off of a generator. As you land your first hit, the first lit totem is broken. It doesn't matter which one it is, hex ruin will continue to be in play. You get your down, you put the survivor on the hook. On BBQ you see the aura of a survivor on your second lit totem, but it's too late. You see it just early enough for it to be a foretelling of what will happen in the next 6 seconds. Your second totem is broken. And now to top it all off. two generators pop. You have to protect 3 generators with just 2 perks for the rest of the game.
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Can't wait to see the decrease of Hex perks after the Undying nerf.
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Undying deactivates after ruin gets cleansed and ruin teleports to where it was. That means that you only have to do one extra totem with undying whereas before it was a minimum of 1 extra totem.
You're also arguing the idea that it isn't a big nerf. The aura reading, regardless of if it was necessary, plus the other stuff is a big nerf.
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But the strength of Undying is that those 2 are specific totems now, in the current version you only need to break more than 2 totems if undying is hidden and until you find it, you can also break dull totems you see and not even have to find Undying. In the new version you will still have Ruin until you find Undying so if its again hidden you will get nearly the same effect maybe better if they can't find it but every other totem. If Undying isn't hidden then it's just the same both cases.
Bringing Undying is already basically throwing away a perk slot to make another perk more reliable so losing it and Ruin shouldn't be seen as losing 2 out of 4 perks but more like 1 out of 3 perks much later. Yes it has aura reading but it is way too weak to be seen slot worthy on its own, which is staying btw on dull totems.
But you are not including the order they find totems, finding totems is the problem not breaking them. Just because a survivor needs to break 2 totems doesn't mean they will find those 2 first. In the current version, no matter which order you find totems, best case scenario is that Undying will make you find 1 extra totem because any totems you find and break Undying won't destroy Ruin in the PTB and it only destroys Ruin if you find all 4 in the current version.
Yes the information is much weaker I agree but I believe it is necessary, it just provides way too much totem defense since you can see anytime a survivor goes on it and even if they manage to it goes to another totem.
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To be honest, the change itself isn't what I have a problem with. Undying was the first perk in a long time that actually shook up the meta and what did people do? Make forum post after forum post complaining about it and calling it op and broken.
I honestly never thought the ruin+Undying combo was that strong. It was definitely a good combo but was only effective if the killer was actually pressuring gens, other wise it pretty much doesn't do anything. Plus taking a map, small game or detectives hunch would counter this build pretty hard (same with noed) so of this build became consistent, I would take one of these.
How long have people been complaining about the ds+unbreakable build with the problems it has? Yet after a coulple of months of complaining undying is already getting a nerf
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For your first scenario, best thing Undying can do is to make survivors need to find 1 extra totem. That is my point, in your scenario they break 5 totems and Ruin is gone, if it happens in the PTB it would be 4 totems and Ruin is gone. Also that situation could have easily gone with that 5th totem being the Undying and the totem you protected being a dull which Ruin just teleported to. In this case the upcoming PTB would be better since the Ruin would teleport to the 5th totem they have no idea about.
Sorry it's late and there are so many replies so I won't read your second scenario but I hope this was enough.
Doing totems isn't the problem, finding them is. Before you had to do 1 extra totem after breaking Undying or break all 4 other totems, now you HAVE to find Undying. This is maybe 1 less totem and maybe the last totem remaining so either a slight nerf or a slight buff depending on the situation.
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You didn't bother to read either scenerio. In my first scenerio. 4 totems were broken, and none of them were ruin. Your reading comprehension is as poor as your ability to read through the whole comment.
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So you're saying that it's easier and faster to find 4 totems and cleanse them with undying's original aura reading than to just do 2 totems?
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Yes, in your scenario 4 totems were broken, 5th was Ruin so it would take finding 5 totems to break ruin that game, if it was PTB it would take finding 4 totems to break Ruin that game, that is exactly what I said. And if Undying wasn't the 4th broken perk but the 5th not found totem, which is an as likely scenario, new Undying would be better, just like I said in my previous reply. Please read more carefully.
Nope then I would call it a buff not a slight nerf.
Also calling it "do 2 totems" is misleading cause it is "find 2 specific totems in the map" instead of "find 2 specific totems in the map and maybe 1 more if all dull totems aren't gone and you didn't break them in the right order". If you don't understand it read my scenarios again, I labeled the totems so exactly this is clear.
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The difference is not how many totems found, but the effects that finding those totems had on the game. The first scenerio has them breaking 4 totems. While the PTB they only need to break 2 totems. The first game, you were able to protect totems, in the second scenerio protecting totems costs the game. These aren't fictional scenerios. I've run into the second scenerio just through bad luck, where I am out ruin and undying before I get a single down. But that would be every game, not just the unlucky ones.
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In your scenario they didn't have to break all 4 of those totems. They could break the 2 Hexes they found and IF they broke Ruin first they would have to break a 3rd hex. Also don't look at it like "breaking" totems but more like "finding" totems because that's what actually matters. In the current version no Dull totems you find and break before the Hex's matter unless you find all 3 and in the PTB they don't matter at all. Both times you have to find both Hex totems unless in the current version you break all dull totems first (then you only have to find Ruin) which is a better scenario for the new Undying (because you will still have to find both Hex's). Otherwise you will have to find 1 extra Hex with the current Undying which is a better scenario for it. This is why I don't think it's a big nerf but a slight nerf.
I'm not really talking about the aura reading change, that is more significant and I personally wanted it removed even as a killer so it would be an opinion rather than a fact. I'm going to sleep now, I hope I got my point across.
Also why was this moved to feedback. This isn't directed at developers but to players in an attempt to change their opinion.
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straight up delusional.
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Your scenario is very easy to understand. I'm sure that's true for everyone. What's hard to understand is the leap in logic to the conclusion you got. That's what we're all talking about. How is it easier to find and do all totems except undying compared to finding and doing 2 specific totems? The time expenditure alone makes it a decent nerf. That's without even talking about the aura stuff. Add that in and the whole "undying change isn't as bad as people think" argument goes out the window.
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You don't have to do all totems in the current version, you just need to find Undying and then Ruin. Maybe you find Ruin first, maybe a couple of dull totems but those don't matter if you think about it. Until you find Undying you don't get rid of Ruin.
After the update you still don't get rid of Ruin until you find Undying, yes you don't need to find it again after breaking Undying, that's what I have been calling "1 extra totem" in my post and comments. So not much changes. It goes from "Find Undying then Ruin" to "Find Undying and Ruin in any order". It is a nerf but not a big one.
I meant the "break all 4 totems other than Undying" scenario as an alternative, it is very unlikely but in the case that it happens the new Undying would be stronger. This is not my argument though, just an example on a situation where new Undying can be stronger.
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U're cutting out the while situation where you keep accidentally finding ruin over and over again. Do you not know how current undying works?
There is no situation where you "break all 4 totems other than undying" with the new undying. That's the current undying. New undying shuts off the moment you cleanse any hex totem.
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In the current vesion finding Ruin over and over happens if you don't find Undying. In the new PTB you will just be finding dull totems over and over if you don't find where Undying is. Result doesn't change. Finding 3-4 ruins in a row turns in to finding 1 ruin and 2-3 dull totems in a row. Until you find Undying Ruin stays, both in current version and new PTB.
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Are you forgetting the fact that you need to actually do the ruin totems? Meanwhile, the new version has you completely ignoring the dull totems.
This is still as bad as people think it is.
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I'm just happy Undying is being changed this way.
Devour Hope and Huntress' Lullaby will now have opportunities to be run with Undying.
Ruin and Undying can still be used together but you may need to actually actively protect the Ruin Hex totem. I fail to see how this is a bad thing as, Hex totems have no business potentially staying up an ENTIRE match without the Killer doing anything to protect them.
You'll have vision on Dull Totems being cleansed and you can still see the location of your lit Hex totems. If Killers wish to run the Ruin Undying combo they still can, they can still likely generate a lot of pressure off of it and survivors still have to cleanse away the combination so it's slowdown. It's just back to how Hex perks are supposed to be: incredibly powerful effects but gambling with the chance that they might be broken and removed from match permanently as they should function.
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I hated Undying for its inconsistency and variance - Ruin bouncing 3 times means i have a chance vs the Rank 1 SWF teams i find myself going against, where as Undying and then Ruin being popped in 30 seconds has always meant the survivors can play with me like a toy to teabag (Because lets face it, survivors ARE still the power role by a mile and a half)
But this? God damn, now i won't even randomly ever have a chance against those high ranking teams again. I might as well take off Undying, put Thanatophobia and naked Ruin and Pop back on and just accept the fact that it'll take less than three minutes to do 4 gens.
And honestly "upgrading the teabag" as my friends have called it in this same patch and STILL no changes to keys while survivors can pick and choose the hatch location on a brown addon is just the perfect embodiment of the balance team's rank 15 survivor only perspective.
I find myself playing less and less DbD as a result, honestly. On survivor i can bring a key and escape whenever i please, and if a killer wants to chase me i'll happily waste 4 minutes of their time and get my team ALL the gens, then die to a facecamp onehook. Only to then wait about 10-25 minutes for another lobby. Great experience.
Meanwhile on killer even my variance based odd victory against these teams is going to go away now - while i'll continue to stomp on the non-optimal teams with relative ease after every 3-4 losses when the game decides it's time for a "pitty match" and throws me against a full green rank survivor lobby or puts a rank 18 console survivor in there. Great experience as well.
We should start a charity drive with the incentive that we force Matheiu Cote to play a LENGTHY killer stream at high ranks. I genuinely wish the people making these balance decisions would expose themselves to high rank gameplay in larger doses regularly. The way they gather data simply doesn't cut it compared to how awful the game flow feels, they need to experience that for themselves, get some analyzing eyes on it (hire Tru3Tal3nt i dare you) and make adjustments that have been needed for years and years, but seem to get drowned out in survivor bias and lack of care for highly skilled rank gameplay.
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It's a nerf but I don't think it's that bad, because it encourages to combine Undying with other hex perks than just Ruin. It was almost unusable with any hexes that required tokens.
I'm sure there will be much more Devour Hope + Undying combos, especially after the mori nerf. Though it's possible that D/U will be the next thing people complain about and what happens then? Do they nerf Devour Hope too?
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Thats.... the whole point.
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