Wraith needed one change, and he didn't get it
As someone who absolutely loves Wraith, anything to buff the bing bong man would make me happy. However, when I heard that the Devs were going to give Wraith true invisibility, I wasn't really excited for it. The reason is because there is a very large issue with him that the Devs didn't seem to catch, and that was his add-on reliance.
Wraith is extremely add-on reliant since he's as slow as a slug when cloaked. You can't play Wraith without Windstorm unless you're going for a meme build -- it just feels so wrong and makes him significantly weaker. Similar to Trapper, Wraith pretty much has one add-on slot, since the other one NEEDS to be a Windstorm add-on, making him less fun to play and go against since there are usually not diverse add-on combinations. Not to mention that his add-ons need some updating as well. It would be so nice to mess around with different add-ons without having to compromise movement speed when cloaked. Wraith is actually pretty good with Windstorm, meaning this simple change, to make at least his yellow Windstorm add-on base kit, would make him way stronger than he currently is.
I feel that's really all he needs, as just a simple and effortless change. I would say if the Devs don't want to focus too long on him, just at least rework or reduce the values of the current Windstorm add-ons if this change was made to compensate, and he would be fine. I am praying that they someday include this.
TL;DR: Wraith needs at least yellow Windstorm base kit since his add-on reliance is the biggest issue with his kit. Other changes obviously need to be made, but doing this is a huge but simple buff.
Comments
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I would take it slow with wraith to not boost him over the top. Remember that he is a popular new player's killer choice (because he's free) and buffing him too much would make it unfair for newer players.
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Yeah, this "buff" that he's receiving is cool but lame. Survivors still will have plenty of time to see him coming, spine chill will hard counter him, and those snores still will be loud AF. But don't worry, in another 2 years he'll received another minor tweak
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Oh yeah, I'm not saying to make him absurdly strong or to completely rework him. That would be nice, but I think a simple start would be to just make him faster. Making his baseline speed faster is such a small, simple change, but makes him so much stronger in a good way, not an oppressive way.
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Yeah it's sad. He's my favorite Killer, so seeing him not getting one simple change is really disappointing
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I honestly don't think he needs much as one of the simple starter characters. I think the distant invisibility was a good change and disagree with people who wanted it for all distances. The shimmer is part of his character and a small part of skill in the Wraith player to approach in a smart way.
Some want him to be able to pass through anything while invisible, but I could see that quickly being a bug magnet where Wraith gets stuck or falls through the map.
The Windstorm change is one I could see if it's mild as going too far with it might make him too strong. I think I can agree with you maybe giving him some of it as base and nerfing the add ons could be the solution.
Lastly, I'd like to see the no sound add on for the bell removed. I feel the bell is pretty iconic to his character and hate seeing it be silent. I'd change it to be something to actually make the bell do something cool. Whether 3 strikes makes survivors scream or something that just isn't stripping him from his iconic sounds.
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I totally agree. Wraith and Trapper should get buffs to their base kits so that their addons are just that, addons that buff and compliment their powers and not make or break the character. Wraith without addons feels really bad and his map pressure drops significantly but Trapper? You can't even say you're playing Trapper at that point you're playing a Machete Man that has to spend half of his time on picking up his power and placing in in sub optimal places just so he can pick up another trap. When it comes to power level I don't understand why BHVR is so hesitant to buff weaker killers like Wraith and Trapper. I do understand that those are common new player choices and that on those lower ranks all the killers already have a very high kill rate but that's just part of the game bad survivors will die to a bad killer if they can't organise and focus on their objectives and instead wonder around and hide in lockers. All I'm asking for is for BHVR to give Wraith and Trapper power of their Windstorm and Bag addons respectively into their base kits. Wraith should have green/purple windstorm base and Trapper should have his Yellow Bag +1 starting trap and +2 capacity base kit and the windstorm+bag addons should then be reworked into something else.
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Sad but true without faster cloak or decloak the speed boost he gets from dropping out of his power is more like a soft reset to where you "should" be as opposed to a reward for cutting off and uncloak to surprise attack.
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As somebody who plays mostly survivor (when I don’t I main nurse because I’m a masochist) the devs dropped the ball on the wraith rework. Being invisible at 16 meters is literally one of Freddy’s SEVERAL base kit abilities when survivors are awake. Wraith can’t even injure you unless he’s close enough to uncloak which is definitely a lot less than 16m away. His reliance on windstorm to even be semi-competent in purple/red ranks is insanity.
It just feels like the devs honestly want people to play brainless, over-kitted killers like freddy and spirit with little risk and high reward. Clown will now have his yellow reload add on base kit while wraith is left in the dust with an awful invisibility mechanic that another killer already has and does way better.
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Alright then. What if, when cloaked, by holding active ability button Wraith can go into sort of Windstorm sprint, bringing his speed to billy levels, this replacing the usual cloaked speed increase. BUT when using this you emit a 48m non-directional sound cue, something akin to spirit's whoosh.
That way you get great map mobility, have to use it thoughtfully to ambush properly and get further paranoia factor to flush out hiding survs or get them off gens just by moving around the map.
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Windstorm speed at base-kit would make him ridiculously oppressive. He's not a chase killer, so giving him a default means to stick to people that succesfully break away is insane. Yeah he sucks in most loops, but giving him speed at base-kit would also increase the speed of his Surprise Attack lunge.
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Reworking his add-ons in an option to, take note.
Post edited by VLight on1 -
No it wouldn't, what are you talking about? His Windstorm speed acts as much needed map pressure for his kit, and it stops Survivors from brainlessly holding W. Should Survivors just not have any sort of challenge?
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All the top tier killers have mobility. It's just a fact that most killers can't be where they need to be at certain times. Wraith needs this.
It wouldn't make him overpowered as his anti-loop would still be mediocre but having more mobility would let him get away from hooks and into new chasers way, way faster.
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So successfully juking a killer and gaining solid distance on them is braindead? The Wraith being able to instantly gain that ground back and then follow up with an massive lunge would be oppressive. You need to look at the big picture with these types of mechanics. Combine that with some of the sweatier perks and playstyles you can do with Wraith and voila, oppresive
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I can't believe I'm arguing with someone who thinks Wraith is oppressive. You also have no idea what you're talking about since you think Wraith's long lunge counters loops, or something along those lines. Against Survivors who don't just camp every single pallet like a Rank 15 default Meg, his lunge doesn't help much at all in loops. He doesn't have any anti-loop against any average player, meaning you can still loop him and you can still get to pallets whether he has Windstorm or not. If you can't, then either you brainlessly camped and threw down every pallet, creating a deadzones, or you just got bad map RNG. The cooldown animation of hitting a Survivor, the cloaking animation, and the uncloaking animation all add up. It's like you think Wraith is some sort of omega Nurse with no fatigue cooldown, 8 stacks of STBFL at all times, with a lunge longer than every single loop in the game. You are overestimating Wraith so much.
You'd rather make it where Windstorm is a required add-on for Wraith players, making things boring for both sides since every player runs the same add-ons, or you'd want him to be as slow as a slug, which makes him one of the worst Killers in the game. Sounds like you really don't know what you're talking about.
Moral of the story, get good, and learn how to counter Wraith. He's not oppressive and he's not even remotely strong against really good teams.
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Ii
Post edited by VLight on0 -
I don't know how they gave a look at those two killers, who have arguably been not-so-good for a good long while, and thought these pretty minor changes are going to make their performance improve. I find it extremely hard to believe that the Devs just looked at Wraith and thought "Here, invisible at a certain distance. He's fine now!".
Same with Trapper - you go through all the trouble to even out the math on his trap escape chances, but you can't go in and change the number of traps he can carry at basekit from 1 to 2?
What are they even doing? Are they just doing the eternal procrastination strategy? They're going to get all the add-ons in one "addon pass", so they can't touch the killer's kit in the meantime? They went in and tweaked Freddy's Swing Chains/ Jump Rope pretty quickly once people whined about it enough, but they can't change Iridescent Head, or do any basekit changes to struggling killers.
What are they even doing?
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Ii
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You clearly don't know what 'juking' and 'breaking away' means since you've just ignored the point of my entire comment lol
Wraith is a hit and run killer, meaning he shouldn't have any buffs to his chase gameplay. If you juke and break away from a tile and gain loads of distance, the Wraith should not be given a free catch up due to a speed increase at base-kit. If he successfully hits you, it's up to the player to judge if he should commit or rotate, buffing his speed makes this less of a judgement and more of a free choice, due to the fact he'd be able to catch up and reapply pressure to the chase or rotate very swiftly with ease. That is what would be oppressive, since he'd have free movement plus speed. Like I said, look at the big picture, not just what would feel like a great buff in basic theory.
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You say that but without stacking healing slowdown add ons and perks hit and run is objectively worse as Wraith than simply getting a quick first hit and chasing normally. He's "hit and run" because perk/add ons basically allow him to be. His base power just has hilariously low utility for a killer that's been in the game this long.
Wraith needs mobiltiy. This isn't even a question. Stealth killers bar broken ones like GF are the weakest killers in the game. No mobility/slowdown/minial anti-loop if any.
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So, essentially what you're saying is that Survivors should have complete control in the chase, and that the Killer should be heavily punished if the Survivor outplays them. That's not how the game should be balanced.
To put this into perspective, consider the fact that the game is a 1v4. The Killer must have enough power to go against 4 different brains, and for that reason, the playing field shouldn't be equal. However, this doesn't mean the Survivor shouldn't have any say in the chase. The ability to outplay one another SHOULD be equal, but the effects should NOT. The reason is because the game is a 1v4. If the outcome of a misplay is equal for both sides, the Survivors would always be the victors in that scenario, since there are four Survivors and only one Killer; the Killer is then outnumbered, while all of them being just as strong.
So now, let's compare to Wraith: Wraith should be able to come back from a misplay and not be heavily punished, since he should be capable of going against four different people. He still gets punished, but just not as much if he has built in speed, since he can make up the lost distance pretty easy. Time as Killer is incredibly valuable; if the Survivor drops a pallet on you and you have to break it, giving them free distance, the ability to not catch up with them in a decent manner is very detrimental to the Killer's viability. The Survivors should NOT get that much power for one misplay on the Killer's part, unless you want a complete bad Killer. This can be compensated with mobility, which is EXACTLY what Wraith needs; giving him mobility gives him much needed match pressure, and instantly boosting his viability, while also giving him an ability to make up that lost distance quicker.
The Survivor STILL gets distance, because their speed isn't decreasing, but instead YOUR speed is being increased. You're basically accelerating the chase, but not in a anti-loop Killer way; you're accelerating the downtime between pallet loops, not at the actual pallet loop, in which you don't have to hold W for like 15-20 seconds just to get to a loop. Also, consider that even when you catch up to a Survivor when they hold W, you still have to down them, and depending on how safe the next pallet is, the chase will take even longer. Holding W is so strong, and good looping is also strong. If you keep the ability to loop a Killer, while also making Survivor's tactic of holding W less strong (because remember, Wraith with speed DOESN'T eliminate holding W, he just makes it less detrimental), the Killer STILL won't be oppressive. If anything, that's MORE fun, since you can continuously loop the Killer and not just have to wait for the Killer to catch up, but I digress.
He also needs the speed for map mobility outside of chase, which is ironic since you talked about me needing to "look at the big picture" when you're clearly not. That's a completely separate argument, so if you're willing to still debate, I'm all for it.
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Nerf this, buff that. Unbelievable. I've been in matches against wraiths in red ranks who wiped the floor with us. Granted, as you said they're perk and add on reliant but frankly, that's almost all killers and a prestige 3 wraith certainly put the time and effort into learning the character and became skilled. Players on both sides continue to want the work done for them. The problems is the devs are all too eager to do it.
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If you consider Wraith oppressive and too strong with a Windstorm add-on, and everyone under the sun uses Windstorm add-ons, do you unironically think Wraith is an overpowered killer? Have you snorted too much afterpiece tonic or something?
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I think that the true invisibility was necessary, but I also agree that he should have gotten windstorm base kit. The true invisibility allows him to sneak up on survivors on maps that are very open like the Macmillian estate maps. It is ridiculous how survivors can see the Wraith across the map while he is "cloaked".
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Not all killers need addons. Huntress, freddy, p head, deathslinger, Oni, and a few others do just fine without addons. Also, a very skilled Wraith can only do so much even with good addons. Just because you yourself have gone against a really good Wraith doesn't necessarily mean he is a good killer who doesn't need buffs.
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My guy this version of Wraith already exists; try running purple windstorm + green windstorm or just purple windstorm.
Nobody is out here complaining that the killer with no power besides running faster outside of chase and being not-actually-invisible is oppressive. It's ridiculous that this is what you choose to complain about when killers like Freddy have everything Wraith does as a small sub-part of their power.
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You two really just jump on one word and think that sums up the point and then go from there. I already said to the other dippo that the potential to be oppressive would be incredibly insane, due to the non-requirement of a loadout slot (or two). Combined with perks it would become a very stale opponent very quickly.
And as for you, @VLight
The moment you start over comminting to the 4v1 aspect in balancing, is the moment you make a killer ridiculous at some other mechanic. I don't wanna be in a world where pallets are forced to be used just because no other form of counter gameplay exists. I don't wanna loop one pallet/tile until it's spanked, I want to interact and actually have potential to legitimately outplay the killer, and vice-versa. Once Wraith gets the speed increase at base-kit, that's when the pallet resource gets boring and the outplays and, so too, punishments for killer mistakes get reduced. It is hand-holding at it's finest and that is a dbd a lot of players would leave due to. The other arguments I haven't read and have no intention to since you clearly just look at the key words on my comments lol
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The moment you choose not to reply to the rest of my arguments, while making assumptions about them, even though you are in no position to make assumptions since you haven't even read them, is when you admit defeat. I don't know why people do this all the time.
Breaking news for you, giving Wraith Windstorm speed base kit isn't "over-commiting" to 1v4 balance at all. Again, even with this speed up, Wraith STILL isn't a fantastic Killer. He doesn't make loops unsafe, and he also performs poorly against good Survivors. It seems like you completely glossed over everything I said, even the stuff you did read, and continued to not actually debate my points, but just repeat yourself.
Actually respond to my points about 1v4 balance, as well as the difference between anti-looping and catch-up, which both shorten chases but in completely different manners. I am not gonna be a broken record while talking to a brick wall. If you don't want to, then don't respond since you don't have to.
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